What to build for beginner?

[shadowing]

I think I'll start building a phase shift unit somewhere this year or so.

Well, I wish to have an idea of what a first timer should build before they progress onto a cascade, or a triple stage.

So what are some good refrigerant and etc. models to build for a first timer?

Thx for answering this question in advance. :)

[gkiing]

First, buy a good AC/refrigeration book, like modern refrigeration and air conditioning. After some reading the first step would probably be a single stage direct die or liquid chiller (chiller is easier).

[total_assault]

well, im building my first i started off with a 1/5 hp compressor and r134a single stage unit, basic loop "<-evap-suction-filter-compressor-condenser-cap. tube->"

[shadowing]

What books would you guys recommend? And what refrigerants are not flammable, but ok for a beginner to start with?

[total_assault]

r134a, r12, and r22 are good ones. I haven't used any books there are a ton of guides out there I've prolly read everyone linked to from this forum at least 3 times, and if you ever have a question ask on this forum.

[kayl]

What books would you guys recommend? And what refrigerants are not flammable, but ok for a beginner to start with?


normally ya dont get to choose, its more what is available to ya.
r402,r507, r404a, r502,r22, r134a would be nice in that order.
or if you cant get any, ya forced to use r290 which is flamible.

[shadowing]

Well, then what exactly are those TEV, PEV stuff? What does an HX look like? What does it mean to pressure the refrigerents?

Sorry if some of this stuff sounds a bit n00bish. :(

[afireinside]

TEV is TXV which is Thermosomething eXpantion Valve It replaces the metering device (cap tube) and automaticly adjusts for the load on the system. Good for liquid chillers. No clue what a CPEV is :stick:

HX is most commonly ~15' (give or take) of 1/4" or 3/8" copper tubing inside the same length of 1/2" or 5/8" copper tubing. Thats the easiest to make and is called a coaxial HX (thats right... right? Or am I just sounding like an idiot?) HX is a board term... Theres many different kinds.

[LostInSpace278]

lol afireinside. It's TEV/TXV=Thermostatic Expansion Valve
CPEV= Constant Pressure Expansion Valve. For controlling the suction line pressure when using High Pressure gases

[shadowing]

So what pressure level is recommended when starting up the system? Is that all dependant on the type of refrigerant used?

[gclg2000]

So what pressure level is recommended when starting up the system? Is that all dependant on the type of refrigerant used?

Yes, but for 404 or somethign like that, they are not what i think "high pressure" gases.

[LostInSpace278]

I agree, to me high pressure gases are more of the top end 2nd stage and 3rd stage gases.

[shadowing]

Wait, I'm lost. High pressure? What? And how exactly do you know?

[chilly1]

I think I'll start building a phase shift unit somewhere this year or so.

Well, I wish to have an idea of what a first timer should build before they progress onto a cascade, or a triple stage.

So what are some good refrigerant and etc. models to build for a first timer?

Thx for answering this question in advance. :)
First I would recommend picking up an old ac or frige and tearing it apart carefully. Do sowith out breaking the system open and then make a liquid chiller out of it. Then read all the stickies in teh phase change on safety and all teh build threads until you have a good understanding of the process. Then get a good guide Like Gary LLoyds, or refrigeration Basics. Pick up a temp meter like the UEI DT 150 or 200 and study teh operation of you chiller a little.. The decide which direction you wish to go..

[shadowing]

A liquid chiller? How does that work? How much would Gary's book, or refrigeration basics cost?

[LostInSpace278]

Don't know how much the book is, but Gary Lloyd used to frequent the chilled water section, If you find one of his post, I'm sure it has a link to his books. They can be bought on amazon.com I believe. A water chiller is a A/C unit re routed to cool the water in a water cooling sytem.

[shadowing]

From what I have read, what are the safe PSI limits for the unit?

[LostInSpace278]

I would not venture to run anything over 250 psi constant. It can peak that high, just not sure you would want to run that high, unless you have a lot of experience under your belt.

When you are using high pressure gases, many if not all are using a high pressure cutoff switch. There are several safety devices you can use to try and insure you are injured.

[shadowing]

So I am guessing the TEV valves, or whatever valves are used to control the psi correct?

Is 150-200psi safe? And what are the parts usually used in a phase shift rig?

[Revv23]

no the TEV is a metering device like a capilary tube, i learned most of the basic stuff at icecoldcomputing.com, go there and read every single article, it provides tons of base knowlegde, and dabit did a great job on his guides.

[LostInSpace278]

The thermostatic expansion valve mainly controls the flow of refrigerant to the evap. It has a sensing bulb that is placed on the suction line. When the temp on the suction line rises, the TXV will open slightly to allow more refrigerant to flow to the evap.

[shadowing]

So what exactly controls the pressure then?

[Revv23]

nothing, your pressure depends on your system, how you charged it, and what you charged it with.

[shadowing]

Well, then how do you release the pressure?

Is there a way to do a triple head evap. unit?

[LostInSpace278]

You release pressure through access valves (industry term) or schrader valve.
It looks like this:

[LostInSpace278]

Sure there are ways of doing it. Good luck trying to tune it for 3 different loads.

[shadowing]

Yeah, i'd guess that'd be tough.

If I did attempt that, what kind of compressor and refrigerant would be good?

[LostInSpace278]

Are you wanting a triple evap unit for SLI/ CPU or cpu/ NB/GPU?

[shadowing]

well probably SLI/CPU

[Revv23]

you need to do some more reading before you start asking questions like this, like i said, go to icecoldcomputing and read everything there, and then read every one of the stickies on this board, and then, once you feel have have a good idea of what a phase change system is, how it works, and how to assemble one, that would be a good time to start asking questions here.

[shadowing]

Revv23, I understand how it works. i don't get how to assemble one. From this lack of inexperience of assembling one, I really have no clue of what parts to use to pull off a triple evap head.

EDIT: Never mind. I didn't read icecoldcomputing.com throughly enough. Seems to have a lot of more in-depth info.

[Revv23]

yeah dabit goes very in depth in his project documentation, i recommend reading them in the order he posted them, he lays everything out and explains what everything does and how it works very well imo...

after that, larde arse has some less technical guides that are just as usefull, they have several tricks of the trade and give you a great idea of how to put things together.

[LostInSpace278]

Yeah, Dabit is pretty detailed about his work. I have read almost the whole site so far. Even has a nice calculator for P/T.

As far as the triple evap set-up, don't mess with it. Build a dually for your cards. Should be @the same load for each card. Then build one for the CPU.

[shadowing]

That's a good idea. The only thing I see that I hate about this is the space used up. :(

Any ideas how to cool it?

[Revv23]

yes that would be much easier as you could use similar sized cap tubes as the heat load for each card should be similar.

[shadowing]

Hmm... Is it a good idea to just buy the evap heads from chilly1?

[LostInSpace278]

Most definately a good idea.

Just a side note, unless your experienced in drilling copper you may want him to drill the hole for ya. He does a great job.Just make sure you have an idea on what size suction line your going to be using, so he can drill the hole out in the top.

[wdrzal]

The Intial charge of a system has nothing to do with pressure, the charge is the amount of refrigerant that the systems requires. It is measured by weight or volume.The intial charge is based on a estimate of componate and tubeing volumes and must be fine tuned. walt

[shadowing]

I'm guessing chilly1 sells a lot of parts. One last question before I start. Are all refrigerants poisonous/flammable?

EDIT: How does autocascades work? How much temp. do they usually go to about?

[wdrzal]

All are poisonous/dangerous,not all are flammable. Walt

[gkiing]

All are poisonous/dangerous,not all are flammable. Walt

Also, some of them have other effects, such as r22 which decomposes into chlorine gas when heated eneough (which is a nerve toxin..).

[Revv23]

I'm guessing chilly1 sells a lot of parts. One last question before I start. Are all refrigerants poisonous/flammable?

EDIT: How does autocascades work? How much temp. do they usually go to about?


an autocascade is like a normal cascade except it only has one compressor, and a phase seperator seperates the gas, its better expalined in the stikies, which you should read.

[gkiing]

The biggest issue with autocascades is separation of the two gases.... I doubt anyone on the forum has found a way to make the phase sep 90+% efficient, some gas always seems go get in the liquid and vice versa.

[Redwolf]

Its easy.. 10F of subcooling and you have success full phase seporation.

[shadowing]

What do the phase separaters look like?

[kayl]

read this will help on autocascade
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46096

ya have to remember though, a autocascade uses 1 compressor but is doing the work of 2 compressors (like in a cascade)
few ppl made them here a xs, but noone has really managed to get them to hold the load of the pc with better than normal single stage temps. its very difficult at the least even if you have build a cascade.
now try and add 3 evaps to that and ya really in for some fun.

a sinlge stage with single evap is the way to start.
then go one better after that.

[shadowing]

hmm... a single stage with two evaps would work too correct? Does the temps. depend on the compressor's horsepower? or more on some other factor?

[gkiing]

Its easy.. 10F of subcooling and you have success full phase seporation.

The issue I had was with the liquid not settling, not that some of the first stage gas wasn't condensed. Will this solve it?

[Redwolf]

Yes

[shadowing]

As I kinda asked before, does the temperature depend on the strength of the compressor? I am guessing not.

Are there any single stage designs that work well?

[kayl]

As I kinda asked before, does the temperature depend on the strength of the compressor? I am guessing not.

Are there any single stage designs that work well?


Yes and no. it needs to big enough to handle the load you provide it. But if you change that compressor out and add a slightly bigger compressor will get similar results.

Its more to do with the metering devices (ie capillary length for each evap and balancing different loads) and the refrigerant that you use. Also the getting the system to hold load will be a challenge and at the same time getting good temps.
Other wise a lot more ppl would be making these things.

Most of the single stage dual evaps that have been built used a 1Hp rotary.
And about -40c for both evaps at load.
No load temps both evaps around -55c.


Are there any single stage designs that work well

I think ya need to read any of the current single stage threads currently going for some more information., there are hundreds of single stage threads, all full of good information.
There is no easy way of learning, just lots and losts of reading over and over.
Check all the sticks out there are guides on how to use tools to cascade construction.
A lot of work has gone into these so this is your starting point.

[shadowing]

I think I've got more of this idea in my head now.

For a single stage, i guess a 1/3 HP compressor is strong enough for one evap. head. However, for two heads, will 1HP be enough? NOTE: The two evap. head will be used for SLI so it'd be at same temps.

However, is the gap between two SLIed cards too small to put the evaps?

[gkiing]

I think I've got more of this idea in my head now.

For a single stage, i guess a 1/3 HP compressor is strong enough for one evap. head. However, for two heads, will 1HP be enough? NOTE: The two evap. head will be used for SLI so it'd be at same temps.

However, is the gap between two SLIed cards too small to put the evaps?

3/4hp is eneough for a dual evap, 1/2 could probably suffice as well. If their gpu's I think 1/2 would be plenty. For the SLI evap I suggest making either a really short evap so they fit or some kind of extended copper heat transfer plate that goes over each gpu connected to the evap.

[shadowing]

3/4hp is eneough for a dual evap, 1/2 could probably suffice as well. If their gpu's I think 1/2 would be plenty. For the SLI evap I suggest making either a really short evap so they fit or some kind of extended copper heat transfer plate that goes over each gpu connected to the evap.

Do you think chilly1 sells any of those kind of evaps? I highly doubt i could make one.

[kayl]

I think I've got more of this idea in my head now.

For a single stage, i guess a 1/3 HP compressor is strong enough for one evap. head. However, for two heads, will 1HP be enough? NOTE: The two evap. head will be used for SLI so it'd be at same temps.

However, is the gap between two SLIed cards too small to put the evaps?


1/3Hp compress is a realyl good size for a system that can be used 24/7 without killing ya electricty bill. and still get about -40c if ya lucky temps.

1Hp is what several ppl have used lardass is the king of dual evaps, hes got a how to do some where.
heres a recent one he made (in the stickies :stick: )

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1055&page=13&pp=25

off topic but i got my first sticky i noticed finding this link for ya thaxs chilly :stick:

Well this is not a crazy benching rig so I picked 2 1/6hp small compressors and used R22/R290
The cpu should do about -20c on load and the GPU about -10c to -5c on load.

so really ya can use any compressors if ya got skills like lardass.
but if ya want about -40c 1Hp would be a good choice same lenght capillary line.

there is a hundred of singles in this sticky ya should be able to get some really good ideas from it.

[shadowing]

Well is 1/4 ok for a single? I really don't want to rack up an electricity bill. Actually, how many watts do they suck up?

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=794181#post794181

Kinda what i was planning for...

[kayl]

depends on what temps ya want.
electrictry wont be too bad, i think the vapour LS use a 1/2Hp
but for the custom coolers can get better temps cause of the gases we use are better.

really for ya first phase change cooler go for a big compressor makes things easier.
then later try smaller compressor.
1/5Hp i have alot of fun trying to get the most out of them.
yet to make a cascade out of them.
nice little gpu cooler.

[shadowing]

depends on what temps ya want.
electrictry wont be too bad, i think the vapour LS use a 1/2Hp
but for the custom coolers can get better temps cause of the gases we use are better.

really for ya first phase change cooler go for a big compressor makes things easier.
then later try smaller compressor.
1/5Hp i have alot of fun trying to get the most out of them.
yet to make a cascade out of them.
nice little gpu cooler.

Okay, but what brand and what models of compressors are good? And is R507 the best for single?

[kayl]

get what eva compressor band ya can get ya hands on.
r507 is sweet, r402 is better but sorta expenive.

[Revv23]

what about propane hehe?

im making a propane setup and i have no idea what temps to expect at all lol...

[reject]

propane will be pretty good unloaded, but i think maybe -35c with a big load? not too sure. better than r22
and shadowing, if ur put off by books, u can read around the stickys and build threads, for a few months, then u can go straight to builing a DD. id start with a single stager, 1 evap, since i couldnt be bothered with chillers, they are too hard for not enough gains

[shadowing]

propane will be pretty good unloaded, but i think maybe -35c with a big load? not too sure. better than r22
and shadowing, if ur put off by books, u can read around the stickys and build threads, for a few months, then u can go straight to builing a DD. id start with a single stager, 1 evap, since i couldnt be bothered with chillers, they are too hard for not enough gains

I wouldn't worry. Apparently, I did find a book. :) I have access to much supplies actually...

However, how much better is R402?

[skate2snow]

A few degrees... Probably 5C not more over R404a which is a known good gas for our apps...

[shadowing]

So from what i'm reading the general refrigerants used in a single stage are basically r404a, r402, r507? Are there any ideas?

What are usual low side pressure readings?

EDIT: How do the compressors start? I'm kinda confused about this. Are there usually some sort of switch wired on or something?

[LostInSpace278]

I installed a simple toggle switch, via the power cord.

[skate2snow]

Like most said, take what you CAN.... You will be suprised by how hard it can be sometimes. R402a, R507, R404a are all around the same.... When I said 5C previously, it is with optimal tuning and all... I HARDLY doubt that you will really see a 2C difference between those refrigerants...

You know the computing basic, so you know how to do a switch;).

[shadowing]

Hmm... switches... :) I'm guessing you'd have to buy those separate.

For compressors, what models and brand are recommended for r402a, r507, and r404a?

Thx for answering all these questions so far.

[LostInSpace278]

I bought a 20 Amp toggle switch at Home Depot for @$4 after taxes.

As far as compressors go, for a single evap GPU~ 1/6 hp or a 1/5 should do fine.
Single evap CPU~1/5 hp minimum, preferably a 1/3 hp or 1/4 hp will do nicely.
Dual evap 1/2 hp or bigger.

Brand really doesn't matter, I suggest rotaries to people, because it holds a load better.If you can not get your hands on one cheap, then go for for the regular hermetic compressor.
Tecumseh compressor for cheap (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5571149480&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1) BTW its a 1/3 hp

Another Tecumseh (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=40118&item=7502299927&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V) This one is roughly a 2 HP 220v. I believe you can use 110v, just reduces the performance by @1/2. So now your looking at a 1 HP for cheap.

[shadowing]

What's the difference between rotary and hermetic?

[LostInSpace278]

Rotary allows for more compression. This was a concept for an engine. My father had told me that way back when, They had a car enter the daytona 500, it just so happen to have a rotary engine. When the engine blew, it was 3 to 4 laps ahead. Just google rotary engines or how do rotary engines work, you'll see what I am talking about.

The other type, the one that looks like an alien head, is usually reciprocating.

[gkiing]

most of the rotary compressors we use are hermetically sealed

[shadowing]

I'm guessing most of the compressor models are cold temp. models?

From what I have read, I'm guessing I need the following components (not including tools):

Compressor
Condensor
evaporator
TEV (not sure)
capillary tube
filter (not sure. is this the same as a cap. tube?)
pressure gauge thingy (the thing that connects to the lines)

Are those the parts you basically need for a single stage?

[thesaucier]

most of the rotary compressors we use are hermetically sealed


I hate to get off topic for a second but HEY gkiing did you send that evap yet?? :confused:

[LostInSpace278]

Well as far as a metering device. (Used to slow the refrigerant and drop the pressure on it's way to the evap) You use either a cap tube or a TXV not both.
The filter is not the same as a cap tube.
Pressure gauge thingy= Charging Manifold


most of the rotary compressors we use are hermetically sealed
This is what I was thinking also, but I wasn't 100% sure.

[shadowing]

So I'm guessing these are the things that are used in phase shift units single:

Compressor
Condensor
evaporator
TXV/cap. tube
filter
metering device
suction line

Also, is there a way to pull off a triple evap. head single stage? Or is it just not possible?

[reject]

i dont think that is worth it, not efficient enough
maybe u can be the first to try? :D

[shadowing]

Then how would the design go? Any ideas?

[skate2snow]

TXV/cap tube IS a metering device.

And from what I saw of your actual knowledge about phase change, I would start by a single evap. And then if you feel you can do it, do a triple evap.

[shadowing]

skate2snow, I'm just asking for a triple evap. design. I am going to start off with a single evaporator.

EDIT: Is an accumulator involved also? I think that's one part i missed maybe.

[REDKEN]

Also, is there a way to pull off a triple evap. head single stage? Or is it just not possible?
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=57325&highlight=triple-evap

[skate2snow]

an accumulator will only be needed in a cascade...

[wdrzal]

go look at everything stockhatch did,read all the threads he started and look at the nice finished product he ended up with, keep your first attempt simple. Walt

[shadowing]

Yeah, I will. My first attempt will likely be a r404a single stager. After that, I'm going to attempt a triple evap.

Well for a single stager, was I correct about the parts needed?

Compressor
Condensor + fan
evaporator (chilly1)
filter
metering device
suction line

for the coils, is it soft? and i'm guessing the size is dependant on the size of the caps. is there anything else needed to pull off a single stage?

EDIT: I give up on the triple evap. It seems to me like it'd be damn hard to just make and tune. Might as well just go one single and another single with dual heads.

[Gogeta]

Other equipment you'll need for any refrigeration project would be a vacuum pump, manifold guages and a digital thermometer. Then there are shraeder valves, oxy/propane torch, insulation, etc.

Good luck man. Take Walt's advise and read through stockhatch's threads. Lots of good info there for anyone looking to build their first single stage.

[shadowing]

Thx. Gogeta and Walt. I am reading through stockhatch's thread. I think most of the ideas of a single stage and phase shift cooling just clicked a lot together.

[wdrzal]

if you have questions just ask, you need to work with this stuff for a while before you try a complex system