Starting out

[EmoAddict15]

Hi, I'm new to the forums here but not necessarily all that new to overclocking. I'm planning on making a vapor phase cooler based of the guides over at VR-Zone and hopefully have it turn out all okay. I can get the parts and the freon gas (thanks to my dad :cool: ) but he said before we even go anywhere he said for the evaporator pipe thats connecting to the copper block he wanted to know the grade/strength for the copper block and the pipe so it wouldn't explode/burst/etc.

Other then that if anyone else can help point me in a good direction to get started (other tutorials on the web preferrably) I'd highly appreciate it.


Thanks a whole bunch in advance :banana:

[bh2k]

Get some guages and some tool and give it a shot. Be careful though since you are working with a hot flame and gas that can kill you. If you need a very good evap chilly1 can help you there.

[LostInSpace278]

What most people are using are either suction lines made by chilly, corregated copper tubing, or steel flex gas hoses. (for gas operated hot water heater, stove, or dryer)

[EmoAddict15]

Yesterday we tore apart some air conditioners and found one thats rated for 10,000 BTU's (I didn't check the horsepower on the compressor), so hopefully that should be enough. My dad said he was just going to fill it with R12 because he can get it for free at his work. Is this a good gas to use? I was looking online and R134a is a replacement gas for R12 and the boiling point for R12 is -21.6 C (not sure if lower the number the better for boiling point, i.e. -28.9 or something).

I'm also wondering if there is anywhere I can go out to buy like "blocks" of copper to make the evaporator or if theres a place that makes custom design ones so it wont look like this http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=714&s=8 lol. Want to try and make it somewhat professional. Some things I noticed in that is the pipe thats running to the evaporator is very thin and theres a huge amount of insulation over it... Is that how they all are? If anyone can post pics of their evaporators with the insulation not on maybe I could get an idea.

Sorry for all the questions, I'm still really new to this but I hopefully want to get this up and running in the next month or so :-). One last question... Anyone in the Lancaster, PA area that could possibly help me out with this project? (I can pay for gas, etc if need-be).

(also whats the suction line? is that the pipe thats running to the evaporator/copper block like in this picture http://www.vr-zone.com/Shamino/phasebasic1/66.JPG)

Thanks for your help so far.

[LostInSpace278]

First off, let me welcome you to ES.
If you want to know what the boiling points are for many of the gases we use here. Here is a PDF (http://www.refron.com/InfoCenter/TechData/Refrig_Data_Sum.pdf) file that will surely help you.
As far as the copper blocks are concerned: Here (http://www.mcmaster.com/) and Here (http://www.onlinemetals.com/) is where you want to start looking. Also drag out the phone book and start looking locally for machine shops and places of the nature. If you want to save many drill bits and a lot of time, PM chilly1. He has IMO the best evaps around.

Usually the pipe with all the insulation on it is the suction line. It is actually running from the evap back to the compressor. It is suppose to have insulation all over it.

What you are showing in the picture is an evap, but the tubing is actually a cap line, cap tube, or also known a as a restictor tube. It is what carries the refrigerant to the evap.

[EmoAddict15]

Okay I PM'd Chilly1 and hopefully he can hook me up. Do you know his typical price range. Basically from what I'm guessing how this works (and I'm probably way off) is there a compressor and then it leads out to a condensor which leads to the suction line which im guessing is just a really thin copper wire? and then is brazed into the evaporator and cover with a hosing and basically it just pumps redicuolsly cold air through the hosing?

Once again, sorry for all these questions lol. I'm only 16 and this is totally new to me, watercooling is getting a little boring and if I can build these for under 400 instead of buying a Prometia or VapoChill then why not (y) But in your personal opinion will R12 be alright and the 10,000 BTU?

[wdrzal]

Go to Ebay or a book store and get a good book for starts, the 20-50 dollars for a good book will save you hundreds of dollars of wasted materals any maybee even your life. These are not extremly dangerios as long as you have a basic understanding of presurized gases and electrical wiring,be careful around capicitors, they can store a charge after they are unplugged."modern Refrigeration and air conditioning" is a great one. it is over 1000 pages and covers everything from principals to componates.shows tools needed and safe practices.Also with this book you will be able to repair any of the hvac/r/electrical systems around your house.even one that is a 80 edition would be alright (they are cheaper)because the principals haven't changed much/ Walt

[EmoAddict15]

Well I actually think it's starting to make sense to me now... I talked some things over with my dad and he knows a decent amount of background knowledge on all this (after all he agreed to help me :-)). Basically from what I understand now is that theres a suction line and the discharge line which is at the top. From the top of the condensor theres a "T" adaptor and theres a hose that connects the top of the condensor "T" to the "T" at the suction line line on the compressor and theres another pipe on the "T" that runs to the Discharge. From the bottom of the condensor theres the drier/filter that runs into the other part of the "T" on the suction line. The other part of the "T" on the suction line you put the cap tube which is basically a very small and thin copper pipe and a bigger copper pipe gets slid over top and the exposed end of the cap tube is getting put in the evaporator maze and everything gets brazed, etc.

Then from how it works its basically goes through the condensor as a gas and boils into a liquid and goes through the evaporator as a liquid and exits out as a gas.

[wdrzal]

I think your tee"T" has a few to many connections, you better get that book! Walt

[GunnerMan]

Well, the book would be helpful I am sure but is it really needed? There are more how tos and scehmatics, diagrams, photos out there than you can shake a stick at.

[LostInSpace278]

Well, the book would be helpful I am sure but is it really needed? There are more how tos and scehmatics, diagrams, photos out there than you can shake a stick at.

Ahh maybe so GrassHoppa, but not all in one place :D

[EmoAddict15]

LoL, well I'll give it a shot and see how it goes. Under supervision of course :-)

[wdrzal]

Well, the book would be helpful I am sure but is it really needed? There are more how tos and scehmatics, diagrams, photos out there than you can shake a stick at.

Yea ,but from what I see over half are myths, half truths and urban legends ;) Get a good book !!!

[EmoAddict15]

Sorry to revive a dead thread... I hopefully might be getting a block of copper this weekend and finally start making it. I'm going to be using R12 Refrigerant which the boiling point is something like -20C (give or take). Will that be my processors temp? Or might it be something like -15C... Right now I have a Hydor L35, etc and I'm at about 40 C or so and can hit 3.4 rock solid with no issues... Check my sig for complete stats, but typically, with the board modded and everything for 1.95 volts AGP/NB what should I probably be able to hit, should I at least be able to hit the 4GHz mark stable? This kind of the whole point of this project, and to learn something about phase change cooling.

[wdrzal]

boiling points of refrigerants are given at 1 atmosphere , they can be colder at lower pressures but that affects the capicity.balancing the mass flow against the pressure is the trick. any reason why r12. its boiling point is about -30c

[EmoAddict15]

My dad can get R12 for pretty much nothing.

[EmoAddict15]

Is R12 any good? And where can I get those good small condensors I've seen some people have... They almost look like thermaltake radiators, speaking of which could I use that for it or would it be a bad idea. If anyone has a recommended small condensor and where to purchase it that be great. My aim is try to and build it into a box the size of those Prometia's and other Prebuilt ones.

[Sneil]

chilly1 will supply you with what you need. i suggest you do a lot of reading in the sticky section. from your explanaitions your way off. best you read, stickies have enough info for a single stage build. Maybe once you've done that post your own explanation again of how it works and you'll be told weather your on the right track or not. r12 is ok but not that great, you can use propane wich has a lower bp but it is very flammable and under high pressure it can act like a bomb. be sure there are no leaks. again, ask before you do anything

[Marvin]

pick a chilly1 condenser and make a shroud for it.you airfow will be higher

[EmoAddict15]

Been readin up a bit more and checking this picture out http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19824

The red I'm assuming is the "High-Side" and I'm guessing thats the point where it boils and runs into the condensor then it goes into a filter and goes to the T where the lo side of the compressor is and that t runs to the evaporator. The coil(cap-tube?) coming out of the lo side of the condensor is where its turning into a solid(?) and making those - C temps :banana: . It coils all along the copper tube coming from the lo side and is fed into the pipe and comes back out but I'm sort of lost at the point where is it going back to.

And if I'm still wrong let me know what's wrong, untill I can write myself a guide on how to do it with your guys approval I'm not even going to attempt this yet, I want to make sure I know how to set it up first.

[hdfxst]

i think you should slow down a little and start here.http://www.refrigerationbasics.com/1024x768/rb1.htm i forget who posted this link originally but its a good read and will answer a lot of your questions

[wdrzal]

That diagram has a extra loop in it for adding superheat,I think thats the itention for your first system stick to a basic loop. the red loop at the bottom is not needed.

[gclg2000]

ya the above is an autocascade. Just do a normal single stage like walt has mentioned.

[EmoAddict15]

Curious on what exactly is an autocascade?

[EmoAddict15]

@hdfxst

That site helped make everything so much more clearer, thank you so much for that link.

Okay so NOW I think I get it lol. The discharge line of the compressor carries the gas to a refigerant and removes all the heat and carries it through the cap tube which puts a lot of pressure onto the now liquid and makes it boil at a colder temperature and these gases boil at neg temps so that's why we're getting neg temps here and it goes to the evaporator which is where its probably at its coldest point/or i guess hottest because its technically a vapor and was boiled and then it goes back to the compressor to start the cycle all over again. The filter removes all the bad stuff from when it turned into a liquid and then sends it to the captube which has a temp sensor at the end of the evap which controls the captubes pressure.

I think I might know what I'm talking about, but correct me, it's how I learn. :banana:

[Sneil]

@hdfxst

That site helped make everything so much more clearer, thank you so much for that link.

Okay so NOW I think I get it lol. The discharge line of the compressor carries the gas to a [condensor] and removes all the heat and carries it through the [filter/drier then through the] cap tube which puts a lot of pressure onto the now liquid and [sends] it to boil at a colder temperature [in the evaporator] and then it goes back to the compressor [as a gas] to start the cycle all over again. The filter removes all the bad stuff from when it turned into a liquid and then sends it to the captube which has a temp sensor at the end of the evap which controls the captubes pressure. [no, just measures the temp]

I think I might know what I'm talking about, but correct me, it's how I learn. :banana:
there u go

[EmoAddict15]

W00t. Now, I was looking at adding R507a instead of R12/R134a will this be really hard to do and is it expensive? My compressor is rated at 10,000 BTU's

EDIT: ended up talking to eschbach and he said it's possible and he'll help me out with a 507/290 mix :). For the evap I just plan on making a block and drilling a maze in it, nothing hardcore pro here.

I was on onlinemetals.com and should this suffice?

Copper 110 H04 Rectangle 0.75" x 2" Cut to 2"
Copper 110 Plate 0.25" Cut to 2" x 2" (to cover the top)

Or what's probably the best rectangle size and plate size I should use, I'm only planning on using this for LGA775 anyways.

By the way, thanks to everyone whose put up with all these noobish questions and not labelling me a noob I really appreciate it :toast:

[EmoAddict15]

Another thing popped into my head, I was looking at some more guides online and its recommended you grease the socket, well since thats pretty hard to do with an lga775 do I just put grease on the contact pads on the processor instead?

[EmoAddict15]

Here's my evaporator design. Think it's good enough or should I make it a bit larger (like 3x3, etc) and let me know about the dielectric grease from the above post. Thanks :D

[LostInSpace278]

The refrigerant will take the path of least resistance. Better off doing a maze than what you have came up with. Just my opinion though. I think you will be disappointed with the temps of the block you have constructed.If you are dead set on making that evap, place the cap tube in a spot furthest away from your suction line.

Also you may want to get a copper block thats at least 1/2'' thick. so you can drill down 1/4'' and still have a 1/4'' for your base.

The way it looks now, you will be drilling out an 1/8'' groove and leaving 1/8'' of copper to absorb the heat. This will greatly impact your capacity and over all temps.

[EmoAddict15]

I'm just going to use fuggers freevap instead, easier to make and i'm sure its probably a lot better.

[MaRtIe]

first i would like to know how you plan on getting most these refrigerants anyways. example R507. R290 propane is probably the best to use and any adult can perchase it i belive.

go with chilly's condensor/evap or go with a custom maze like someone has said.



peace

[EmoAddict15]

Someone here on the board is coming over in a month or so to help me put it all together and they're EPA certified. I'm going to use chillys condensor and probably make a maze or the freevap.

[n00b 0f l337]

I would go actually with my free vap design. Fugger's would involve some U shaped items, and those are difficult to condensation proof.

[EmoAddict15]

That's what I was going to use, this one anwyays http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=30774

[MaRtIe]

i dont belive those are verry easy to make for a learner. also ime curious on how that can be insulated better then a block with the suction and liquid line on the top of the evap.

looks more like something that can be used on the GPU...

[pythagoras]

It can be easily adapted to cap and suction line on top.

Block current cap tube entrance and suction line exit, then drill two holes down from the top.

Regards

John.

[EmoAddict15]

Yeah it might be, what else is a good and somewhat decent evap. I have a friend lined up who is a machinist , not CNC work, but other stuff so if someone hooks me up with a diagram and what exact size is needed for the block I'd appreciate it.


Frank

[BugsBMD]

Here is a pic of that idea.

[MaRtIe]

if your going to the troubble of that, why not just do a simple maze design?

[EmoAddict15]

Hmm, good point. I'll come up with another design in my 4th block class, we got fireworks (not exactly CAD but I don't have anything else lol) and post it here.

[EmoAddict15]

Here we go. i gotta re fill it in then, i'll revise when i get home let me know how it is so far.

[EmoAddict15]

Here's teh finished version, let me know what you think. I think one should be okay :toast:

[EmoAddict15]

*bump* guess it sucks that bad, huh? :-P