A few questions from someone looking to get started.

[Revv23]

Hi there, I am currently planning to build a single phase direct die cooler with R22, i am not building this to be amazing performance (though that would be nice) but i am building it for inexpensiveness and a learning experience more then anything else, if this goes as planned it would be the first of at least a few phase change units for me, ive been reading for tat past couple weeks, and several hundred hours and i feel im ready to start looking for parts.

In an effort to save money, i took apart my 5300BTU window AC in search of anything i could use, rigtht now i am looking at the compressor, its made for r22, and its a mitsibishii KH0774WFMC, i could not find much about it other then this translated google page, and of course i have no idea how many HP it is. would this be an acceptable compressor?

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.shec.com.cn/product/shec2004/html2/products/new/final.jsp%3Fid%3D27255&prev=/search%3Fq%3DKH074WFMC%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

Some pictures of it:
http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/phase_001.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/phase_004.jpg

Also the condenser:
http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/phase_002.jpg

And the evap:
http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/phase_003.jpg

Now I havent found much on condenser sizing, would there be anything wrong with a condenser so large? If so, could i use the current evap as a condenser?

My next question is a matter of tools, I have no idea where to obtain them, most online stores ive found are for the UK, and im in the US, and most of these things are not things that one would find at home depot, so any ideas on where to start on that stuff would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
-Revv23

[LostInSpace278]

Well building for experience is always a good thing. As far as being inexpensive, I highly doubt that, unless you have a bud that is already in the HVAC business. Most people use a small condensor because it alowws them to build a compact system. Go to chilly1 thread in services, I believe, You can a very small condensor from him. (and most any/all parts you would need)
As far as tools go, I have bought most of mine off e-bay. Some helpful items to search after getting to e-bay.(most U.S. stores are expensive.)
Robinair
Yellow jacket
Promax
J/B
Tecumseh
Copeland
Matsu s hita(one word on e-bay, here you get bananas)
Danfoss
Sporlan
Penn
copper tubing (only buy refrigeration copper, soft copper is for plumbing)
copper tube
tubing tools
recovery cylinder
A few websites to keep in mind:
welding supply (www.weldingsupply.com)
rparts (www.rparts.com)
grainger (www.grainger.com)
As far as refigerants go, you will probably need EPA certs to purchase these, unless your planning on using propane or r134a.
This is why I say it's not inexpensive, I thought the same thing when I started aquiring parts and tools, until I stopped and added up what I had spent. It is a fun project and very addicting, so do not let the price scare you away. All of this stuff can be purchased over time.
If you are really in the search for a cheaper alternative, just P.M. chilly1 for a price his DD systems. Just let him know what temps you are looking for and the size of system you want. He can probably get really close to what you want. BTW, out of all the places I have ordered from, he has the best service and the fastest shipping.
I think I have about covered it all, if you have any more question, just post em.

[Revv23]

By cheap i mean cheaper then it would be to build something with all new parts, hence my question about that compressor...

And yes i am planning on using propane.

I am not afraid of the cost, I can already imagine that this project will be very expensive...i would however like to cut costs wherever possible :p:

Thank you very much for that info, this will help me alot. :cheers:

Do you know if that compressor i linked to will work?

[LostInSpace278]

Being that is a 5300 Btu compressor and its rotary, you should see very good temps with it. Most rotary compressors will out perform a hermetic compressors of the same size. AT least from what I have seen any ways.

[wdrzal]

your a/c will be great for starters, run it with the case off and familarize yourself with the refrigeration circiut,paying attention to what tubes are hot and cold. ebay is a great place for tools. I buy almost all mine there. walt

[Revv23]

yes ive been doing that, operation wise i understand everything i think, it is a very simple setup...


So would it be my understanding that i could remove the current EVAP, replace it with a DD one, and regas the unit right?

of course it wouldnt be quite that simple, but it seems that this might be less work then i originally had thought.

[LostInSpace278]

I would also change the filter/drier while I was at it.

Make sure condenser has good air flow, and pretty much, cut off the evap and attach the DD evap.

[Revv23]

Ok so I think ive got a list of everything i will need, take a look:


Evap
suction Hose
Cap tubing
Something to create a vacuum with (im thinking my old science teacher has a good pump for this :p:)
service manifold (pressure guage)
flaring tools
Torch (is propane torch good enough as i have this?)
insulation of all sorts
brazing rods
pipe cutter
shrader valves
1/4 od copper tubing

Am i missing anything? Anything i dont need?

edit - do i need a filter/drier?

[LostInSpace278]

filter/drier
I would trade the flaring tools for swaging tools( you can get swage punch kit for $15)
MAPP torches do a better job at brazing. (faster as well)

[Revv23]

Hehe you beat me to it, looking into swaging tool/filter/torch now, thanks.

Here is a picture of the entire length of the cap tube,

http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/IMG_3923.jpg

obviously i will need a new tube, the question is, how what ID/Od and how long, looking at gary's guide (http://www.phase-change.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1206) , im gathering that 10ft of .028 inch tubing would be a good place to start, as i have no idea how to calculate my heat load and 150w seems like it would give me a good amount of room without being too high. am i correct in assuming this? edit - perhaps 9ft would be better for a propane setup correct?


Heres a shot just after the compressor kicked on(about 30 seconds):

http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/IMG_3919.jpg

which brings me to my next question, this things works on a thermostat, and it took about a minute of me rubbing it in my hands to turn the compressor on, to shut it off i rubbed the temp probe agianst the evap for a matter of seconds :p:... anyways, how would i control this? i suppose i could rewire it, but i would need much more learning from this, if i short the wires on the temp probe, would this result in the compressor always being on?


Edit - forgot to add a temp probe to my list, what is a good one to look for for a reasonable price?

Edit 2 - aha one last edit :p:

anyways, where to get insulation? pipe insulation it looks like i can get at home depot (is this good enough) but where can i find neoprene sheets? do i need dielectric grease or will vaseline work?

[wdrzal]

there would have been a liquid line filter/dryer in front of the cap tube,you can reuse it,if you have the money a suction line filter/dryer wouldn't hurt.

closed cell insulation is what is recommened, a lot of the stuff at home depot is opean cell.

[gkiing]

don't waste your tiem getting coper tubing and cheap stuff like that off ebay, just go to johnstone supply or the like. If your buying a new manifold get a yellow jacket one, and a fluke thermometer. Their the best quality in my opinion, and theres no point buying cheap stuff to have it break and have to buy more.

[gclg2000]

I just pulled my thermostate probe off and cut it off If you take your time and listen to everyone. You can do this easy. I would just cut off the tubing that goes from condensor to cap tube (right b/f the cap tube starts). Then you can sweat in a filter/drier then pinch down your new cap tube and run it to your evap block while wrapped around the suction line on the way back to the suction. Get a saw and cut a hole out of the top of the shell of your window A/C unit and run the flex line out that hole so you can put the shell back onto the housing and it will come otu looking pretty sweet.

[gclg2000]

don't waste your tiem getting coper tubing and cheap stuff like that off ebay, just go to johnstone supply or the like. If your buying a new manifold get a yellow jacket one, and a fluke thermometer. Their the best quality in my opinion, and theres no point buying cheap stuff to have it break and have to buy more.


I can account for that. I bought a pipe bender from "tool america" on ebay and that piece of :banana::banana::banana::banana: broke on the 3rd pipe i bent, and NO i wasn't over doing it. It was that cheap pot metal :banana::banana::banana::banana:.

[wdrzal]

yea, them 3 in 1 benders mean you need 3 hands to operate it, :rolleyes:

[Revv23]

don't waste your tiem getting coper tubing and cheap stuff like that off ebay, just go to johnstone supply or the like. If your buying a new manifold get a yellow jacket one, and a fluke thermometer. Their the best quality in my opinion, and theres no point buying cheap stuff to have it break and have to buy more.


ive been looking for a used manifold off of ebay, anything wrong with this? Looking into that temp probe now thanks.
searching for johnstone locations now :p:



there would have been a liquid line filter/dryer in front of the cap tube,you can reuse it,if you have the money a suction line filter/dryer wouldn't hurt.



closed cell insulation is what is recommened, a lot of the stuff at home depot is opean cell.

actually there is no filter/drier, as you can see in my pictures, the cap tube goes straight from the condenser to the evap without anything like that..

as for closed cell, the stuff i found at lowes is close cell, so thats one less thing, just looking for those neoprene foam pads and seal string now.

so, im about to fire off a pm to chilly one for:

filter/drier
some cap tube
suction line
evap
shrade valves

total would be $188 (am i aloowed to say? :p:)

anything else i should buy from him? is that foam tape like seal string, i may get some of that as well.

edit - would getting pipe benders like this be a good investment?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4538875080&category=35625

[gkiing]

I can account for that. I bought a pipe bender from "tool america" on ebay and that piece of :banana::banana::banana::banana: broke on the 3rd pipe i bent, and NO i wasn't over doing it. It was that cheap pot metal :banana::banana::banana::banana:.

yeah I got one of ebay awhile ago its a pos.. only worked for a few weeks. Now I've got some imperial pipe benders, their only 1 size per bender but their quality tools and are really easy to use, and don't kink the pipe like the 3n1.

[LostInSpace278]

You can get spring tube benders at Home depot or lowes pretty cheap. On e-bay you need to read the shipping first. They can really put it to you here. Home Depot or lowes, I forget, has armaflex insulation. Its suppose to be pretty good stuff.

As far as thermometer go, fluke is the best. If you can find the last generation 50S or 50D, its worth the money. If not get the new generation 52 series. Next up, IMO is UEI thermometers.

If you put in an order with chilly, you may want to get him to braze up the evap with suction line and cap tube, unless you are willing to take the 15 to 20 minutes to heat up the evap. It has major heat capacity, also the reason they come highly recommended.

The foam tape, I am pretty sure has adhesive backing, but while your at home depot, just get some liquid electrical tape or dielectric grease/spray.

[Revv23]

You can get spring tube benders at Home depot or lowes pretty cheap. On e-bay you need to read the shipping first. They can really put it to you here. Home Depot or lowes, I forget, has armaflex insulation. Its suppose to be pretty good stuff.

As far as thermometer go, fluke is the best. If you can find the last generation 50S or 50D, its worth the money. If not get the new generation 52 series. Next up, IMO is UEI thermometers.

If you put in an order with chilly, you may want to get him to braze up the evap with suction line and cap tube, unless you are willing to take the 15 to 20 minutes to heat up the evap. It has major heat capacity, also the reason they come highly recommended.

The foam tape, I am pretty sure has adhesive backing, but while your at home depot, just get some liquid electrical tape or dielectric grease/spray.

Great info :toast: , yes i was planning on asking chilly to do the brazing on the evap for me as i have no nitrogen to flood the block with anyways...

Does this mean you do not recommend vaselene as a dieelectric grease replacment?


Heres another question, what is the parts i have boxed in in this picture?

http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/phase_0012.JPG

and another, how would i calculate the heat load of my processor? say im planning on using this cascade on a 2.8c@1.7v initailly and then something of the A64 939 variant...

[LostInSpace278]

What I see boxed is a liquid line reciever or accumulator. Depends on who you ask.

I can not personally recommend vasoline, I haven't used it for a moisture barrier. If live somewhere where there is low humidity, you would not really need either of those.

[LostInSpace278]

HeHe, I just ordered a 1HP tecumseh rotary for my next project. Gonna be a monster, r402a first stage and r1150 second stage.

[gclg2000]

Got my current bender from sears w/ a warranty. $20

[LostInSpace278]

I got 1 off ebay. I guess we'll see how it holds up. I only got it becuase it can do tight radius.

[wdrzal]

That was a suction line acumulator,it prevent liquid refrigerant from getting into compressor. walt

[wdrzal]

Got my current bender from sears w/ a warranty. $20

sears has some benders I use all the time,they work great.can you post a pic gclg2000, my sister borrowed my digital camera or I would post some pics. I minds well kiss it good bye. I am going to have to buy a new one :D

[Revv23]

That was a suction line acumulator,it prevent liquid refrigerant from getting into compressor. walt

thank you, this is what i thought, i had a friend trying to tell me it was a filter, but that made no sense to me. Thanks for re-assuring. :)

anyone answer me on cap tube length, would 9ft of .028 be a good place to start?

[Revv23]

blah im an itiot, dont remeber making two very similar posts...

i need sleep my friends...

[wdrzal]

since all these evap's are unique and testing is the best way to determine length,You should get that answer from someone that actually used and tested them. unless your system is a clone your will have to tune your own system.there are charts to estimate length but I would go with experience any day. walt

[Revv23]

that is what i was afraid of hehe... looks like chilly will be the man to ask as i will be using his spiral block :)

[LostInSpace278]

I have seen this a couple of times from chilly. 93'' of .028 cap tube. Ibelieve he had said that was good from @1/5 ~1/3 hp compressor. Anything bigger just shorten the cap tube.

[Revv23]

ahh cool, now just need to figure out how big that compressor is :p: anyone care to make a guess?

[Revv23]

just discharged the system, stupid me opened it up from the high side, things got a bit loud hehe, all is good now though, i am still deciding the best place to remove the evap from, and the condenser is sitting in a bucket ready for cleaning now... ive gotten most of the dirt off of the caseing by now though.

[Revv23]

got the condenser cleaning in a vinegar/water bath now, pics soon, im thinking about modding the condenser so the last pipe is no longer in the refriderations cicuit, i would hate for that rust to come back and haunt me.

edit - also started painting the A/C unit black :cool: this thing wont look too shabby, im not sure if i want to sand/prime and all that, im thinking that i can just throw the black paint right on over the old clear coat, and ill just be really carefull wit hte unit to aviod chipping.

[Revv23]

man i lucked out at lowes today, got 50ft of 3/8od refridgeration piping for $20, then i found some spring pipe benders, then i found some really high quality neoprene pipe insulation, and then i found a flaring tool kit, and insulation tape, all for under $50. when i looked online all of this was stuff they claimed they didnt have.

I am really embarrassed to note this though, when i started working on my system i measured the pipes with a ruler and they were 1/4, or so i thought, when i was at lowes and i looked at the 1/4 in, i noticed it was much thinner then my tubes..

so ive been telling you its a 1/4in setup but all the pipes are 3/8. I am very embarrassed lol... i almost didnt tell about my mistake :p:

[gclg2000]

sears has some benders I use all the time,they work great.can you post a pic gclg2000, my sister borrowed my digital camera or I would post some pics. I minds well kiss it good bye. I am going to have to buy a new one :D

Sorry i took so long i didn't catch the pic request...I don't have a really good picture of it, but i do have a pic of my project with it laying in the bottom right corner if ya can see it. Ia your looking to make 180" bend (every now and then) just use a stiff can or a "almost used up" roll of duct tape to use as a mold. Other than that, 3/8" tubing starts to get tight and hard to bend w/ a small radius.

http://www.namike.com/albums/Cascade-Build/MVC_005F_001.jpg

[wdrzal]

Those are the benders that take 3 hand :D s to use

[gkiing]

yeah, I had one of those and it broke really quick.

[Revv23]

Some updates, been working on getting everything ready, and i got my stuff from chilly1 today, he forgot the brazing rods so still a few days till i get it all brazed up, but here are some progress shots:


http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/Phase/phase_018.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/Phase/phase020.jpg

Got the A/C unit all painted up, paint job is far from flawless, i just did a quick job in an effort for a single coat, and it came out much to my satisfaction, even if it isnt my best work. Note that it's very dusty right now as its been sitting in my garage and looks much better clean. im going to put but CCL's behend the grill, i think itll look pretty good, i'm also thinking about replacing the ugly control panel with a black switch.

http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/Phase/phase021.jpg

condenser and compressor all ready for brazing, really bad photo i apologize my camera is dead right now too, so ill take more tomorrow.

Here are some pics of the stuff chilly1 sent:

http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/Phase/phase_013.jpg

my favorite pic - A nicely finished evap :toast: nice work chilly

http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/Phase/phase017.jpg

Somehow i got one of chilly's pens, but im sure thats not what your looking at, very nice brazing chilly, too bad i dont have a use for this condenser yet.

http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/Phase/phase_014.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/Phase/phase015.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/Phase/phase022.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~revv23/Phase/phase023.jpg


so what do you guys think?

[reject]

in the pic of the condenser what is that coil from the high side for?
and what material are those hold downs made form?

[Revv23]

in the pic of the condenser what is that coil from the high side for?
and what material are those hold downs made form?


thats the condenser chilly sent me, he put that coil there so i would have some extra tubing to connect it with, though im not using it...


the hold downs are the rubber ones that came with the AC... they are nice, they make it so the compressor is floating.

[Revv23]

so im still working on this, got REALLY sidetracked, anyways, how is this deal for a vacuum pump?

1/4hp FJC 2.5CFM with new oil for $128+$17 shipped
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&tc=photo&item=4559539118&category=63700

[wdrzal]

so im still working on this, got REALLY sidetracked, anyways, how is this deal for a vacuum pump?

1/4hp FJC 2.5CFM with new oil for $128+$17 shipped
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&tc=photo&item=4559539118&category=63700


Those are generic pumps, they are only single stage and don't have a real low micron rating like a 2 stage pump,

I see a lot of slightly used brand name pumps sell for that price , I would get one of those,