My Journey on a 2-stage cooler

[gclg2000]

Gathering parts still. I have 2 compressors, tubing, tools and others parts that i'm still getting together, but i've already started by making the Heat exchanger

Below are pics of the Heat Exchanger.

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/MVC_001F.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/MVC_002F.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/MVC_003F.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/MVC_006F.jpg

[masterofpuppets]

Have you even built a single-stage yet?

[FUGGER]

Very nice work on the heat exchanger, off to a good start.

[gclg2000]

Thanks FUGGER.

Chilly1 has been helping me some with my design and such. Thanks and mega ditto's goes out to him.

[cold_ice]

I like it, good work :)

[Scout255]

Nice professional appearance, good work :)

[gclg2000]

thanks, i think these 2 little compressors i have will do the trick. I'll try to get some pics of them up. My goal is to take a AMD mobile barton to 3.0ghz if possible, that would be a nice little OC.

[masterofpuppets]

Oh I forgot to say, nice start :)

[gclg2000]

thanx, master. I understand your concern.

[gclg2000]

Well got a little more work done (well alot actually). Went by a local supplier and picked up a few things. A couple filter/dryer's, some 1/4" shradder valves, and some 1/4" couplings. I got everything silver solderd together excecpt the evaporator for the 1st stage of the heat exchanger (pictured above). The 1st stage is pretty much done and just needs to be bolted down to the board. I coild the capillary tube for the 1st stage around the suction line (right before the accumulator) of the 1st stage to give a mini "auto" heat exchanger to subcool the 1st stage metering device a little more. Also added a filter/dryer to the 1st stage it didn't come with one from the sears window A/C unit i tore down for the 1st stage and Air condensor. Etc etc etc....pics are below and please give me constructive critisim to what ya'll think. Remember the HX is NOT soldered to the 1st stage yet, cuz i still need to pout the HX in a cardboard box with the spray foam insulation and then i will connect it.

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/Mvc_002f.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/Mvc_001f.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/Mvc_005f.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/Mvc_007f.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/Mvc_009f.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/Mvc_008f.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/Mvc_016f.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/Mvc_017f.jpg

[Unseen]

very nice! keep going! How r u going to insulate the heatexchanger?

[Tonic]

There HX's insulation should be not enough

And I suggest you to braze again filter, there joints looks unstable and they can leak

What a torch you're using?

[gclg2000]

ok ICE will do man. Thanks for the help. Imma just leave the cap tube wraped around teh suction line like it is since you said it won't really matter. I've already joined those joints together anyways. The torch i'm usig is an Oxy/Acet tank. Got a pic of it below:

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/Mvc_006f.jpg

and here is a pic of my parents (and little brother's dog) Ranger. We are gonna try to overclock him to a doverman.

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/MVC_015F.jpg

[the]

LOL OC"D TO A DOVER. anyhoo nice looking start you got,jsut outta curiosity how many hours have you spent on this to get this far?

[gclg2000]

about 3 hours. Most of it praticing with the torch, since it gets so hot that it will burn through the pipe pretty easy. Just learning that mainly. The reading and design and questions on this board has been many hours however. I've been heavily recommended by a local shop to just use a propane torch since it will get copper hot enough to melt the silver solder, but not hot enough to melt the copper.....anyone want to comment on that?

[oc_nightmare]

does anyone knows the average temperature diference between the oxygen/acetylene and the oxygen/propane torches?

[hatemi]

I'm trying to braze to the compressor suction and discharge ports with my propane torch and it is damn hard to get things hot enough. when brazing pipes it works ok but when it needs to heat alot of mass it just isnt cutting it. You might want to try another topi for your torch if it's melting the copper:)

[Epsilon]

about 3 hours. Most of it praticing with the torch, since it gets so hot that it will burn through the pipe pretty easy. Just learning that mainly. The reading and design and questions on this board has been many hours however. I've been heavily recommended by a local shop to just use a propane torch since it will get copper hot enough to melt the silver solder, but not hot enough to melt the copper.....anyone want to comment on that?

I would say: learn how to use the oxy/fuel torch. You will need this in the future anyway (block etc). It does the job MUCH quicker and cleaner.

[Russell_hq]

I agree with Epsilon, learn how to use your oxy/acet torch better. Practice on scrap pieces of pipe and try and braze them together. Do you have any knowledge on the subjuect of how to use an oxy/acet torch or are you just doing trial and error? Because we can easilly teach you how to use it and tell you where you are going wrong. Its an excellent tool for brazing, it gets the parts up to temp fast so you dont apply continual heat for a long period of time.

[gclg2000]

Alright man, well here is my take on it. I just kep "fanning" the blue hot flame accross the two pieces (and coupling) to be joined together at a kinda slow pace.....back and forth in about 3 seconds, unti the joint, coupler and two pieces being joined together are glowing red then you just let the material flow onto it. never put the material directly in the flame and pull the flame back once you get your material to suck up into the joint. Let the hottness of the metal work with the material and don't melt the material onto the joints.

Thanks alot guys,. i could'nt do this project without yall. THanks for paying it forward.

[Russell_hq]

That sounds like good stuff, just make sure that you have the right flame set. You dont want a cutting flame. U want to get the copper a cherry red, if it gets orange/yellow then its too hot.

[gclg2000]

got a picture of a flame your describing???

[gclg2000]

or even the type tip i should be using. My dad has several tips. His shop is pretty stocked full of nice welding machine and torch stuff.

[kayl]

nice start there man good choice of compressors
one thing on the hx for the suction line that goes back to the compressor remove the 1/4" pipe and replace it with either 3/8" or 1/2".
and where you have the capillary line wrapped around the suction line like that is good.
dont want it robbing the hx of temps wrapping it around the hx

is there any chance that i could have a pic of the labels on those compressors, i have one similar to yours (not the rotary but the other one).what gases are you going to use?

[Russell_hq]

Read the brazing guide in the stickies of this forum;
Brazing Guide (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=37434)

That will show you pics of what you want to do :)

[sharp]

I woudnt wrap cap on hx because if you will some day replace cap tube with bigger you will have to dig into hx and destroy all insulation.

[gclg2000]

is there any chance that i could have a pic of the labels on those compressors, i have one similar to yours (not the rotary but the other one).what gases are you going to use?

Yeah man, i'll get you some pics of the compressors tonight hopefully and upload them either late tonight or early tommorow.

[gclg2000]

btw.....the A/C unit i got it from was out of a $70 unit from sears......comes with a nice condensor, fan and accum on the unit already and cap tube. Was really easy to incorporate it into the cascade.

[kayl]

getto cascade thats the way.

[gclg2000]

Hey thats not getto...just recycled.

Trying to figure out now the correct size cap for 2nd stage i should use and the length.

[ashapirox]

My 3 stager was getto. it cost less then 70 bucks to make with junk parts of ebay. A lesson of warning. If it's too cheap, don't buy it. My 3 stager also happened to break in a bit over a month.......

[gclg2000]

yeah i know what ya mean.

Everything is fortunately new on this rig. The tall compressor is from a sears A/C unit i bought myself about 1 month ago and i ordered the 2nd stage compressor NIB from a powerseller on Ebay.

[JSU]

looking good, btw someone asked about the heat differance between oxy-propane and oxy-acetylene. oxy propane is 4579 F and oxy acetylene is 5589 F.

[gclg2000]

small sorta kinda maybe but not really update.

Got the condensor from chilly1's for sale thread on the way from him to use a oil cooler for the 2nd stage oil and some capillary tube. Imma redo the cap tubing on the first stage and redo the suction line and make it a tad bit bigger for better flow. Hopefully should get his package in a few days. Also got a oil seperator on order from good ole "Pensacola Cooling and Air" to use on the 2nd stage also. I'll post some more pics hopefully thurs/fri

[gclg2000]

Here are some pics of a few parts for my cascade and one "major essential" part too.
Another filter/drier w/ shrader valve and oil seperator and a couple T 3/8 & 1/4 joints and some compression fittings for the evap block. Enjoy guys.

Btw...the oil sep. will be all 1/4" tubing.

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/COOLER2.sized.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/COOLER3.sized.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/COOLER4.sized.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/COOLER5.sized.jpg

[kayl]

nice
one thing with that oil sep. i though that the top was the exit and the middle was the enterance?

[gclg2000]

yeah i know, i thought so too. But thats, how it came. It prob. goes inside a tube or something to the float device then goes out the red cap.

[gclg2000]

Can anyone comment on the oil cooler "IN / OUT" ports...are they supposed to be like that???

Chilly???? ICE???? FUGGER??? ANYONE?????

[kayl]

ifs thats the way its labelled i would use it like that.

[Tonic]

Can anyone comment on the oil cooler "IN / OUT" ports...are they supposed to be like that???


Why not? I imagine that gas enters from top, oil as liquid, drops to bottom, gas as
gas, leaves outlet, which is localized above oil's outlet

[gclg2000]

Yeah thats what i've thought all along. I'll try to get a diagram of it to show everyone how it works.

[gclg2000]

Got kinda an update here.
:toast: :banana4:
I insulated teh HX but i don't think i like how huge it turned out; and plus, it has alot of weak joints i think. I think i'm going to end up making another HX, but this time with tighter coils and taller, and i will just use 1/2 neoprene to insulate it with along with zip ties, and some insulation foam tape instead, that way the unti will be smaller and more compact anyways, instead of the giant duct tape masterpiece of a HX'er.

Also, got a better looking and more compact peice of wood to use as the mounting surface. I edited the a pic below to show you what i think is the best arrangement for the unit's orientation on teh mounting board. The small heatercore laying down, is "representing" the oil cooler from chilly1 (which is in the mail), and i'm thinking of just putting the new HX in front of that, that way the unit isn't very long but more short and compact.

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/MVC_001F_001.jpg
http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/MVC_006F_001.jpg
http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/MVC_004F_001.jpg
http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/MVC_019F.jpg
http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/MVC_017F.jpg

This is what i'm talking about for the final pieces and how they will be orientated....see what i mean about the giant HX...if it were a tall spiral, it would fit nicely right in front of the 2nd stage oil cooler.
http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/EDIT_FINAL_PIECES.jpg

[gclg2000]

Also, should the filter dryer be after the 2nd stage condensor????? I think in chilly's diagram's he is showing it before the condensor...and i'm kinda getting confused....shouldn't it filter teh "condensed" liquid and there fore be after the condensor...

The freon would have to be liquid after it comes out of the oil seperator right?? for it to work best?????

[bh2k]

I hope your going to use something other then that reference, I do not believe a heatercore could withstand the pressure.

[gclg2000]

Got kinda an update here.

The small heatercore laying down, is "representing" the oil cooler from chilly1 (which is in the mail), and i'm thinking of just putting the new HX in front of that, that way the unit isn't very long but more short and compact.


That's not what i'm using. It is just there for size relation and ~'ntly

[gclg2000]

lol thanx guys, but thats not my oil cooler. It's just a reference for the placemnt on the one Chilly1 has for me in the mail due in a day or two. haha its going to be the small condensor he sells in the FS/WTT forums.

[gclg2000]

UPDATE:

Got the oil cooler in from chilly, and picked up a 115v fan from Radioshack ($25 = ouch). But the oil cooler assembled and oil seperator hooked up. Also got the capillary tube ran for the first stage (80") and im going to redo teh HX with some new fittings i have that won't make it so weak.
**Also, added 3/8" suction line for first stage, and the HX suction for 1st stage will be 3/8 of course to match it up.

Anyways, some pics are below. Any comments or corrections is 100% welcome.

**Also got the raw copper bar and material in to machine down an evap.
As always, enjoy!!!

http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_002F.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_017F.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_008F.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_011F.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_012F.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_023F.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_024F.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_022F.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_025F.jpg

[gclg2000]

i did have one question....does it matter which tube the discharge line for the oil cooler goes into from the compressor....shouldn't i have it going in top and out the bottom port?????? And will the oil return line from the oil seperator condensate???

[Epsilon]

do u use a oxy/fuel torch or a plane oxy torch?
The connections seem a bit ruff to be honest.

But beginning to look nice :).

[gclg2000]

its oxy/act.....yeah, i cake the silver on there pretty good......i just get nervous it doesnt make a good seal, so i make sure it does. The pipes need to be cleaned up too, and scrubbed off around the joints.

[Epsilon]

Make sure you heat the joint enough. If it doesn't flow nicely, then the joint is not very strong.

[gclg2000]

yeah it flows good. So just leave it at that??? I get it to a nice cherry red and it goes with it. I think building it all up is overkill and a waste of solder, but i wanna make sure it gets done right.

[gclg2000]

Little update. The block is getting machined by this weekend hopefully. Then i just have to tack it on and charge it up. For starters, imma just go with R404 on both stages to test it out. Then while i'm trying to get my hands on some R1150 i just sit with the R404. The supply shop i go to can't get R1150, so i'm off to looking around for it.

Below are pics of were i'm at on the 2-stage cascade.

The new HX i made. about 13ft long. 1/4 inside 1/2"
http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_002F_001.jpg

As you can see, its very small and compact. Very tightly coiled. I did uncoil it though and was going to put pip insulation around it. But it stretched it out to big. When i pulled it off, it of course wouldn't contract back down. Some wire or zip ties should fix that though.
http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_006F_001.jpg

Easy, quality joints to work with here. I just "wallered" out the 1/2" to 1/4" sweat reducers and they easily slide right over the 1/4" for a nice snug fit, just added some silver to it and bingo, nice quality joint and HX
http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_007F_001.jpg

Overhead View #1
http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_016F.jpg

Overhead View #2
http://www.namike.com/albums/album01/MVC_015F_001.jpg

[kayl]

i am interested to see how that desupa heater condenser goes in second stage i want to do the same.
you should make a shroud for that condenser.

try bocs or aire liquid for some ehtylene.
the cascade is looking good.
you know that r12 compressor that you using second stage on the sticker what current does it draw (at whats voltage mains) , im interested.

[gclg2000]

Yeah i'lll make up a little something for it. Nothing major though. I'll get teh sticker info later for ya. It's at my dads shop

[berkut]

looks VERY nice, good job.

Im impressed by your HX, how did you do it ?

[gclg2000]

Yeah thanks man. I basically used a "used" roll of duct tape as a round guide. Anything will work about that dimension though. Just did it by hand, rolling it around the "molding" object so it would get nice tight coils. As tight as i have it, you can notice that it "started" to "kinda" kink up, but its all uniform and you reallying can't even notice it. Besides its no were close in the loop to pinching off anywhere.

This is my first cascade, and i didn't really care about making it pretty. Next go round, i'll be able to make it much more cleaner and compact. I've used way to much silver solder on this unit too. Still playing on how to get the temps right with the torch.

[gclg2000]

Little update, i've got the evap almost done. Just need to add notches in the fins to allow for the gas to be sucked back up to the suction port. It's 1.625 diameter and 2" tall. An old retired friend of mine did the cutting for me.

Enjoy!!!!

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/2_G.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/3_G.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/4_G.jpg

[JSU]

Looking realy good! how do you plan on insulating tha hx without interfearing with the flow to the desuperheater? Also is that a matsu:banana::banana::banana::banana:a compressor?

[kayl]

man you beat me to getting mine.
i have a few of those blocks with a similar design been made up
i can wait to see how they go on your cascade, -100c i bet.

[gclg2000]

I'll just bend it out of the way some. I plan on re-doing this unit once i get some basic testing done on it. I really hate how huge it has turned out. I'm going to use a different condensor for the first stage and make it much more compact and cleaner looking. I'm just going to wrap neoprene padding around the HX. It won't be pretty or the most effiecient, but it will work ok.

[gclg2000]

heh kayl,

I think they will work pretty good. My old retired friend made this one for me. I've known him since i was born so its pretty special to me. I'm getting some more made from a friend w/ a machine shop. The "revision 2" will be smaller. About 1.375 Inches tall and use 1/8" fins and 1/8" voids. Bascially same design just smaller and "tighter." I think the smaller one will work just as fine. I'm building a small single stage for myself and for a friend. Anyways, thanks for the comments.

I just can't wait to get my new 560J on it. I'm so wanting to reach 5ghz on it...or more???? :idea:

[JSU]

how does refrigerant get from level to level in your block?

[gclg2000]

Just need to add notches in the fins to allow for the gas to be sucked back up to the suction port. Just will be knocked out with a drill press. Like 5 minutes of work left on this unit.

[berkut]

I belive i see a serious flaw.

You used the 1/4" line of the HX as the I stage evaporator. The outer shell should work as the evaporator while the 1/4 line should be the II stage condenser.

#2 problem is the II stage condenser (as it is now) is flipped vertical. The refirigerant travels up while it should flow down.

[Unknown_road]

I think it will be better to use the inner tube as an evaperator although 1/4" is a bit small but using the inner tube is more efficient in my opinion because all the "cold" must go tru the second stage gas and it can't get into the insulation right away. iow the coldest is inside.

[gclg2000]

I belive i see a serious flaw.

You used the 1/4" line of the HX as the I stage evaporator. The outer shell should work as the evaporator while the 1/4 line should be the II stage condenser.

#2 problem is the II stage condenser (as it is now) is flipped vertical. The refirigerant travels up while it should flow down.

Yeah thats what i thought at first. I asked chilly about it and he said i had it inside out, so i flipped it around like i have it now.

[JSU]

I didnt see anyone comment on your oil sep having the inlet at the top. The reason for this is that its a helical sep. There is a spiral down then there is a tube near the bottom that grabs the refrigerant and the outlet can be whereever the company wants.

[gclg2000]

Cool, i figured it was some funky design. Anyways....got more pics of more parts!!!!

My suction line:

3ft of teflon braded steel hose. Rated at 1800psi w/ 3/8 flare fittings on each end. I'm wondering if the really cold temps and gas will leak out of the threads if i just use thread tape and tighten it down pretty good. I know the flare is what acutally makes the seal. If ya'll think it won't work well enough, i plan on just silver soldering shut the compression fittings.

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/8_G.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/9_G.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/10_G.jpg

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[LardArse]

Nope switch out that teflon hose, it will slowly leak after time. You want a steel/copper inner braided hose.

[gclg2000]

Do you think the hose itself or the compression fitting will fail. I plan on silver sodlering the brass fitting shut if i have too

[f00t]

the hose will fail because it is made of teflon coered by braided steel. get one with corrugated steel and you'll be set

[LardArse]

Do you think the hose itself or the compression fitting will fail. I plan on silver sodlering the brass fitting shut if i have too

The teflon will melt straight away when you put that flame on :D

[gkiing]

They dont leak very fast, but a corrugated steel one with 1 steel braid is usually the standard. If you do use it the compression fittings should be leak free if you install them properly and tighten it down. If it's a flare fitting you will need a copper flare gasket.

[gclg2000]

yeah, well how about the pics below. Think what i got there will work any better??? :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:


http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/12_G.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/13_G.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/14_G.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/15_G.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/16_G.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/17_G.jpg

[kayl]

now that looks better, forget screw threads and teflon hoses.

[gclg2000]

:toast:

If you look close, you can see one side of the fins in the evap are flattend. it kinda/sorta but not really looks like a cam shaft. Those "gaps" are what connect the layers of the fins.

[JSU]

lol it does reseble one a bit. btw where did you get those hoses and how much did you pay?

[BB mods's]

My lath is all cleaned up and ready for that copper bar of yours bro :D BTW ..looking darn good there :)

[runmc]

Yeah I like you evap design and your hose also. That is a good choice. As JSU asked - where did you get the flex hose, and how much did you pay for it. I would like to get a few of those myself. ;)

[gclg2000]

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/MVC_011F_001.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/MVC_016F.jpg

http://www.namike.com/albums/album02/MVC_002F_002.jpg