Does Overclocking Require Skill??

[Kunaak]

I am having a arguement with a real dumbass, and I want to get the opinions of real overclockers that do this day in and day out just like me.

I say overclocking is easy, till you get past a certain point, when you get into volt mods, refridgeration, bios modding, flashing videocards for better OC potential and hacking up bridges on CPU's, that theres a definate level of skill required to do various things.

theres more to Overclocking then just going into BIOS, and thats pretty much where I say you step ahead of the crowd, when you stop being afraid of the soldering iron, or instead of wanting a new prometeia for 1300 dollars, you start thinking of how to make your own cooling for half as much, or a cascade...

or simply little things, like how every OC board around right now has hundreds of people trying to figure out how to change a X800 Pro to a X800 XT right now.
these things tend to be the work of overclockers.
where do people assume the R9500 Np mods come from?
or the 5900 Flashing to a 5950?
who do they think makes the DFI street Bioses when the real DFI bioses kinda suck?
who is the person that knows every circuit and cap on a videocard and figures out all the volt mods?

theres more to overclocking then just going into BIOS.
but this person simply thinks, "it's easy", "any one can do it", "it takes no skill", "you just have alot of money"

I gotta shut up now, this persons pissing me off.

[Peen]

Your friends an idiot :D

[Kunaak]

who said friend ;)

I said "a real dumbass" haha

[afireinside]

if it wasn't skill, then why aren't we all as good as Opp, Macci, Fugger, Shamino, Tom Holck....ect

Any retard can OC. An impressive OC requires skill. Building a cascade and finding Vmods doesent require luck.

[PS2pcGAMER]

I don't see the point in debating it with him at GFAQs.

Most people there, including those who overclock have no idea that you can mod a BIOS or voltmod a video card. Most of them just want their barton 2500+ to run at 2.2ghz and think that is plenty...which is great if that is what they want. Doing that doesn't take much skill or even knowledge about overclocking.

The level of overclocking that you (and just about everyone else at this site) is at requires a lot of skill and patience along with a ton of knowledge, we all know that.

Don't waste your time arguing about overclocking over there. Just keep posting what you are doing. Keep correcting any wrong posts that you feel like, but don't bother getting into an arguement, it always ends the same way.

[Kanavit]

i think this is the top list to be good at anything.

1. Skill
2. Love
3. motivation

[sandman]

I voted for the third option, BTW, got a link?

N/m I found it, good stuff. :)

[PS2pcGAMER]

This (http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=2000110&topic=14110800) thread.

[Lithan]

Excepting the people who hack apart hardware figuring out the ins and outs (and there are very few, most people only work with other's ideas) I don't think it takes much skill. It takes money, time, and a little practice with a soldering iron. The exception being the guys who follow traces, create schematics, etc to figure out the 9500 np and such. But these rarely are the people with the top 3dmark scores. Top 3dmark scorers are in my opinion mostly just the guys willing to dump assloads of cash keeping top of the line and building elaborate cooling systems (or taking the easy way out and using NO2). I don't think they have any more skill than your average overclocker. More experience and cash, but not more skill.

[afireinside]

They are more skilled with their knowledge. They know their way around the BIOS and all the little options and windows tweaks and the likes.

[sandman]

Here was my reply:

I find it funny that all these people who think overclocking is so easy don't have thier Athlon XP's at over 3ghz, or thier P4's at 4.337ghz, and don't have a voltmodded videocard and motherboard.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

[deathstar13]

f it wasn't skill, then why aren't we all as good as Opp, Macci, Fugger, Deathstar13,Shamino, Tom Holck....ect.
fixt :D

i just want the old days of ocing to come back.then about 97% of todays ocer's would dissapear.

no i didnt oc back in the 333 celery days,but i wished i could have been there.

above skill id put these:
research
preperation
patience
then skill

i just saw today on another forum a guy who went out and plopped down cash for a gig of khx pc4000 for his a7n8x and couldnt figure out why his ram sucked so bad?lmao i couldnt even post an answer without wanting to flame him to high hell!

im no where near as hardcore,skilled or advanced into ocing as some people here.but im damn good at it as i spend 3x as much time researching,prepping and the patience than i do on the actual work!before i ever touch anything.

im going to read that post you guys posted but i know what its gonna be like and exactly also how it ends.ive seen this many times in the last few years and just come to accept it.

[sandman]

Originally posted by Lithan
Excepting the people who hack apart hardware figuring out the ins and outs (and there are very few, most people only work with other's ideas) I don't think it takes much skill. It takes money, time, and a little practice with a soldering iron. The exception being the guys who follow traces, create schematics, etc to figure out the 9500 np and such. But these rarely are the people with the top 3dmark scores. Top 3dmark scorers are in my opinion mostly just the guys willing to dump assloads of cash keeping top of the line and building elaborate cooling systems (or taking the easy way out and using NO2). I don't think they have any more skill than your average overclocker. More experience and cash, but not more skill.

Does knowledge not denote skill?

I mean, it isn't like you need some god-given ability. It's pushing buttons and soldering on tiny little things.

[Lithan]

Originally posted by sandman
Here was my reply:

I find it funny that all these people who think overclocking is so easy don't have thier Athlon XP's at over 3ghz, or thier P4's at 4.337ghz, and don't have a voltmodded videocard and motherboard.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

1. I have voltmodded motherboards. I simply don't have the time to do this on my current motherboards.
2. I've removed voltmods from videocards where the voltmod was done so poorly the videocard didn't work until I removed it. Voltmods aren't at all difficult to perform if you have the right equipment.
3. I've had an xp up to 2.75ghz on air. That's 100% stable. I can get suicide screens around 2.9 on water. Why dont I have 3ghz system? Because I don't give a crap about screens or benchmarks, and it is plain stupid to run chilled/peltiered/phase change for an extra 300mhz 24/7 use. "Extreme" cooling methods for everyday use are fiscally inefficient. I overclock for everyday use.

Your self-conceited comments are out of place. If you think that some 15 year old whos mommy gave him a thousand bucks for a prommy is a good overclocker because he can get 3ghz out of todays xp's, go right ahead. I would at least expect something slightly related to actual work (fsb) to be used to claim "skill". If you want xp mhz, just get it cold. There's no skill to that. FSB requires cooling, volt-mods, memory issues, and dozens of other hurdles that are time-consuming and boring as hell to deal with.

People writing bios, developing the mods, etc have skills. Just because you can install these bios and or perform these mods doesn't mean you do.


No, knowledge and skill are not the same thing. I have the knowledge to create a goldfinger device. So does anyone who reads the schematics to one. So it isn't a skill. Skill indicates an ability to perform a task difficult or impossible for others.

[Kunaak]

Originally posted by PS2pcGAMER
I don't see the point in debating it with him at GFAQs.



me either, but you ever just get that one dumbass under your skin and you just have to say something?

[scrible88]

Originally posted by Kunaak
who said friend ;)

I said "a real dumbass" haha

Well the "real" dumbass is a "real dumbass"

;)

It requires a combination of knowledge and skill.

[sandman]

Originally posted by Lithan
1. I have voltmodded motherboards. I simply don't have the time to do this on my current motherboards.
2. I've removed voltmods from videocards where the voltmod was done so poorly the videocard didn't work until I removed it. Voltmods aren't at all difficult to perform if you have the right equipment.
3. I've had an xp up to 2.75ghz on air. That's 100% stable. I can get suicide screens around 2.9 on water. Why dont I have 3ghz system? Because I don't give a crap about screens or benchmarks, and it is plain stupid to run chilled/peltiered/phase change for an extra 300mhz 24/7 use. "Extreme" cooling methods for everyday use are fiscally inefficient. I overclock for everyday use.

Your self-conceited comments are out of place. If you think that some 15 year old whos mommy gave him a thousand bucks for a prommy is a good overclocker because he can get 3ghz out of todays xp's, go right ahead. I would at least expect something slightly related to actual work (fsb) to be used to claim "skill". If you want xp mhz, just get it cold. There's no skill to that. FSB requires cooling, volt-mods, memory issues, and dozens of other hurdles that are time-consuming and boring as hell to deal with.

People writing bios, developing the mods, etc have skills. Just because you can install these bios and or perform these mods doesn't mean you do.


No, knowledge and skill are not the same thing.

jesus dude, calm down. That was completely directed at the gamefaqs kids.

I really don't see how it was self-conceited or anything, but this isn't really the place for this argument either.

[Peen]

Kunaak link them to this thread

GFAQ ppl read this. You are all n00bs :stick:

[Lithan]

Self-conceited because you make the attestation that they are unknowledgeable based on an irrelavant measurement which I can only assume is taken against yourself.


Essentially, you said "If you aren't willing to invest in extreme cooling then you don't know what you are talking about."

To clear things up; I have respect for those willing to dedicate the money and time and effort needed to achieve top 3dmark scores because I am not. However, I DON'T feel they deserve to be viewed as some greatly-skilled human when compaired to most others here. Because of their additional time spent on overclocking, they are available as a source of knowledge at times. But I don't believe that their scores are explained by "skills" anymore than the guys strapping NO2 to their P4's and getting 5 or 6ghz screenshots(or whatever they are getting today) are explained by skills. They are willing to do what others aren't. Some people wont do it because of a lack of time. Others, a lack of funds. Others, a lack of technical know-how (and time to invest in gaining it).

You have a 30k 3dmark score? Good for you. You worked hard and earned it. But don't try to act as though it's something only you and a few select "skilled" others are capable of. I've seen people buy dozens of chips until they found one that did so and so many ghz, than try and claim that it's due to their "skills" that they have the highest clocking cpu of the type. Yeah... right.

[Peen]

Hey Kunaak. Link them to your sig 3dmark scores and tell them to beat this, because like they said its easy and anyone can do it

[Kunaak]

Originally posted by Lithan

Essentially, you said "If you aren't willing to invest in extreme cooling then you don't know what you are talking about."

I don't think that what he was saying.
everyone at XS knows great OC's aren't only done at sub zero temps.

one of my favorite overclockers here, the last viking is doing unbelievably insane things with the DFI and Mobile CPU's and all on air.
just seing he can do a 290 FSB with a Xp CPU is mind boggling to me, and he does it all on air.

and the occassional 4 ghz OC's done on nothing but water...
it's all good.

[Lithan]

Kunaak. How many xp's have you seen stable at 3ghz on air or plain water?

How many on phase change/chilled water/pelts?

My point was that he didn't mention FSB, or tweaking or anything of the sort. He mentioned cpu mhz (which for Xp's is almost exlusively reliant on temps).

[pkrew]

Skill is many things and people have it on many different levels. You don't have to be able to do something that someone else cant to have skill, but the one who can certainly have more skill. At least at that task. Knowledge is also a part of skill. You have to have skill to find it and to decipher what is important. There is also a big difference in having knowledge and being able to use it effectively. To do so, takes skill. Those that are capable of getting all the performance that their system has, regardless of cooling and equipment, are very skilled at what they do. It takes knowledge, intelligence, patients, and hard work to gleen the last few drops of performance from a computer.

[Kunaak]

water or air=zero.

phase=maybe 5- or alittle more.

why?

[Peen]

money sure helps ! :D

[Lithan]

He said 'People who argue this point don't even have 3ghz XP's'

You say you haven't seen any xp's over 3ghz without extreme cooling.

To me that means what he said was the same as saying 'People who argue this point don't even have extreme cooling'.

And extreme cooling has NOTHING to do with overclocking skill.

[Kunaak]

ah yes, good point.
but I think he didn't quite mean it like that.
he's a smart kid, and doesn't tend to be one trying to piss people off. it's just a misunderstanding.

[Lithan]

Yeah, I think I read too much into it.

[Kunaak]

yeah me too.

[sandman]

I was just using them as examples of things kunaak has done that not many people have. :)

[LilGator]

Overclocking certainly does require skill, give any n00b top end hardware, a cascade, and a soldering iron and they would get nowhere near Macci, OPP, Fugger, etc...

But then, any n00b with money who goes out and plunks down some money for an X800Pro, and overclocks a little, will destoy most of our scores simply because we can't afford to upgrade. Money does buy 3DMarks, but with equal money, skill wins out easily...

[sandman]

Originally posted by LilGator
Overclocking certainly does require skill, give any n00b top end hardware, a cascade, and a soldering iron and they would get nowhere near Macci, OPP, Fugger, etc...

But then, any n00b with money who goes out and plunks down some money for an X800Pro, and overclocks a little, will destoy most of our scores simply because we can't afford to upgrade. Money does buy 3DMarks, but with equal money, skill wins out easily...

Well said. :toast:

[Ragnarok]

But then, any n00b with money who goes out and plunks down some money for an X800Pro, and overclocks a little, will destoy most of our scores simply because we can't afford to upgrade. Money does buy 3DMarks, but with equal money, skill wins out easily...

too right..

the type of ppl who pisses me off the most are those who consistently brag about how godly they are and how much the others suck... well u know who that person is!

[Peen]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
too right..

the type of ppl who pisses me off the most are those who consistently brag about how godly they are and how much the others suck... well u know who that person is!

lol i seriously dont know who does that could you tell me or PM me with who says that? i was thinking MickeyMouse but he isnt here :confused:

[nutcase]

I will say it like this:

Anybody can Overclock BUT it Takes Skill to Overclock Well...

[LilGator]

Originally posted by Peen
lol i seriously dont know who does that could you tell me or PM me with who says that? i was thinking MickeyMouse but he isnt here :confused:

LOL :p:

[jfr0]

If overlclocking requires no skill then why do noob overclockers ask so many questions here. lol

Its like driving a car. Everyone can drive a car. In order to do fast you need the right equipment(costs $$) and someone with the skill to use it.

[Çhrist0ph]

because im an "overclocker", my friends think of me as "that douche who always kills his hardware..."

little do they know...

[DaveX]

It takes skill to learn of and implement the BIOS tweaks, v-mods, and extreme cooling needed to take top oc'ing honors.

[IvanAndreevich]

$$$... pretty much everyone who posted to this thread would easily beat 30K if given enough $.

[Kunaak]

I don't think it's money alone.

theres been months where I made less then $200 or so.
but I always manage to have a top end PC around, and thats simply cause of one thing.
I don't keep old hardware long.
I get a X800 Pro tommorow.
I am already thinking of selling it, to prepare for the X800XT or so.
by no means would I say I am rich, but I think I do damn well for myself and overclocking.

[Peen]

its all money! seriously you could just pay macci or OPP to do it for you :p:

[EmineM]

well it does include alot of skill, however one is able to obtain this skill if devoting most of his time into overclocking and the rest will follow ( wanting to vmod, cascade and so on)

[Peen]

well money does play a HUGE roll. like,

i cant experience the joy of a A64 and learn off of it ........ why??? because $$$$


I cant experience the love of Modded phase change systems. why? $$$$$$

i guess im not bling bling'n
:mad:

[Pejsen]

I refuse to select one of the oppinions above, however if i were forced i tend to the one about skills(bottom).

I really agree with your post kunaak, i mean my little cousin 5 years old would be able to overclock his P4 2.4@3.0 no problems maybe even higher, but once you get into extrem overclocking, you can really talk about skills ;)

Today being a real overclocker even requires soldering skills :D
Atleast i have taught myself how to solder due to all the necesairy voltmods.

[IvanAndreevich]

Kunaak
Of course it's not money alone. I didn't say you would get #1 in orb by only $. I said you can get 30K easily by only money :)

FX-53 with stock Mach II GT, pay a bit to someone for custom freon on the vid card. Buy some select BH-5 for $500 lol. Give your boards to someone to vmod it for $20 each... done :)

[Catch22]

Originally posted by LilGator
Overclocking certainly does require skill, give any n00b top end hardware, a cascade, and a soldering iron and they would get nowhere near Macci, OPP, Fugger, etc...

But then, any n00b with money who goes out and plunks down some money for an X800Pro, and overclocks a little, will destoy most of our scores simply because we can't afford to upgrade. Money does buy 3DMarks, but with equal money, skill wins out easily...
http://gathering.tweakers.net/global/smileys/worshippy.gif

[Hallowed]

Skill?

Any monkey can throw a prometeia on a chip known to clock well and gain mega-star status on newbforums.

Overclocking really is not a skill at all. Its hitting page up and page down a few times in the familiar blue screen or learning the mundane art of drawing with a really bulky pen that just happens to be 800 degrees at the tip. Again, not very hard. Anyone can read a pin-out on an IC, rudimentary electronics skill will tell you ground - resistor - IC, more V's. Rudimentary physics knowledge says colder -> faster, to a degree. There really is nothing to this, apart from a fat wallet and dedication.

I think the true 'skill' of a well-funded, experienced overclocker is the ability to keep an ego in check. Only a precious few are able to do this, and it seems as if their age is fading fast.

I certainly hope the old guard last long enough to let the newer crowds remember that high scores were not always without high class.

[SAE]

Originally posted by PS2pcGAMER
I don't see the point in debating it with him at GFAQs.

Most people there, including those who overclock have no idea that you can mod a BIOS or voltmod a video card. Most of them just want their barton 2500+ to run at 2.2ghz and think that is plenty...which is great if that is what they want. Doing that doesn't take much skill or even knowledge about overclocking.

The level of overclocking that you (and just about everyone else at this site) is at requires a lot of skill and patience along with a ton of knowledge, we all know that.

Don't waste your time arguing about overclocking over there. Just keep posting what you are doing. Keep correcting any wrong posts that you feel like, but don't bother getting into an arguement, it always ends the same way.

I exactly had this kinda adventures in the past in German forums... and that's why I only post for fun there... some are really stupid and some only have very "fixed" opinons when it comes to voltages, 3dmark scores etc. they just put their fingers in their ears singing ... LALALALA :lol:

P.S. For me money is a problem... I cannot always get the newest hw first ;) (student=no money). But sometimes I had the luck to buy the right hardware or to get enough money for bday that I could afford that "easy-to-oc" tool Mach2 GT :rolleyes: hehe

Anyway. A lil skill is here :p:

[Spec3]

I think it's money. There are a lot of people out there with the skills to overclock as well or better than macci, opp and the rest you listed. What holds them back is money. We don't all have money to blow to get the best everything or replace all the things we kill. I have no doubt in my mind at all that if every single person on this forum were given the exact same hardware/cooling that macci and opp and the rest would get bumped off the top.

Steve

[The Stilt]

Overclock recipe:

Amount: Ingredient:

One part - Money
One part - Skill
One slice - RMA´s
Few drops - Superqlue and love

EDIT: Damn, forgot all about dashes of bandaid and beer ofcourse :D

[Primal]

Macci, OPP and Tom just got money, that's all. :stick:

[blinky]

yah i think if everyone could afford all the nice hardware, there would be a bit more top level OCers, but those guys would still have lots of skill.

what im saying is, theres prolly lots of people with skill who have no money for parts, but theres also people with no money who have no skill

another part is it gets real easy to kill hardware when u get into extreme cooling and vmodding such that it does take skill to keep a board alive

[Ragnarok]

what sets the difference are those who innovate and find new crazy tweaks :)

[Ow_jeih]

with everything on stock and aircooled i could menage to get 2620MHz stable, but that's the limit for me atm.

if i ****up a V-mod, i have nothing left, and no money for new HW so everything stays stock.
i could say money is pretty important.

but skill is needed too...everytime you see the same names...
the difference is that those guys just squeeze the last out of their rig..

lets not forget about luck, one graka clocks worse then another one, and most ppl can't afford 2*X800 XT, a few CPU's,...

[Tedinde]

Originally posted by Primal
Macci, OPP and Tom just got money, that's all. :stick:

I hope your joking right??

Money does play the biggest part. Then luck with getting a good chip. Then skill.

Yes it is easier now with all these boards with killer volt options, PCI/AGP locks, You can buy killer cooling now if you have the money. Unlocked killer chips if you have the money.

I've been around and the names your nameing have been around forever. Since the Celeron 300a and a ABIT BH6 board.

All of us the blow a lot on OCing do it for the enjoyment. And work hard at their other jobs to pay for it.

Even if you have $10k dollars, to build your next killer rig. If you just started doing this a year ago, you will not get their numbers.
I've watched all of them for probably 5 years now and am always amazed.

I quit the 3dmark race over a year ago. I've got too much work to do and not enough time. But i blow more money on my Folding rigs than any of the names you listed above on their bencmark rigs all put together.

I hope your comment Primal was just in good fun and a joke with the stick poke.

My rant is over Primal, Welcome to the forums!!!!

[IamAnoobieCheez]

Originally posted by Tedinde
I hope your joking right??

Money does play the biggest part. Then luck with getting a good chip. Then skill.


omg :eek: well said!

i thank you for including the word "luck". :)

[gouda96]

Money obviously plays a very large roll in oc'ing. I can't afford to constantly upgrade, but that is most deffinately not the only factor.

Contrary to what spec3 said, I believe that if I were given opp's hardware I seriously doubt I would be able to break or meat his scores. There are quite a few people that have hardware equal to opp and macci, yet they never seem to be able to beat them. Call it skill if you'd like, but I feel they possess something that sets them apart from the rest, and it isn't just money...but I could be wrong :toast:

also, money will pretty much take care of the luck part...or having a fry's near you...if only there was one in atl!

[Rancidelephant]

Basic overclocking doesnt require skill :D

i do think you need 'skill' to be one of the top overclockers but it isnt skill in the sense of a neuclear physicist.

I believe any competant human (we all know muppets :D ) can be the top overclocker, it just take time to learn to solder, learn about refrigeration etc .... there is nothing essentially hard about overclocking, it just takes a long time and a lot of maney to be able to do it very well :)

[spaceman]

I wasn't gonna post here, jus vote, but what the heck. The luck part is probly at least half the battle, cause no matter how much ya know, or how much you can cool it, a mediocre chip just won't set records. ;) I voted on the last option, cause if Opp, macci, and the other top OCers didn't have the right combination of luck AND skill, we wouldn't even be posting here. The really cool thing about this place is, folks generally share whatever knowledge they've aquired, so that it's up to you to see if you have any skill (providing you have the cash on hand). ;)

[Bungo]

Well u have to got the money to beable to beat the records, so many "poor" people who got the skill but not the money wont stand a chance.

Think its a mixture of money + skill that sepperates the godly overclockers from the ordinary people.

[Cucumber]

There quite simply is no "Skill" involved.

Knowledge and money. simple as, i dont see any skill that plays a part

[Primal]

Well, your'e right, I was wrong.
Anyway, first post - a little excited. ;) :D
No "welcome to the sickness"? :(

[texuspete00]

Yes you need money, but give most OC'ers a cascade, volt modded boards, and high end hardware and you dont have a bunch of world class benchers you have a lot of expensive dead sh1t.

You really have to get every last drop out of your hardware. It takes a long while to coax out that last bit. What will you do for a hundred more marks and will the hardware live to tell the story? I can see half the people saying this stuff, if they had a day with a cascade crying and crapping themselves they just fubar'd some expensive stuff.

The way I see it the proof is already on the ORB. It's the same folks... most probably have money but none are on the cover of Forbes magazine. If you can sell off hardware you might not lose more than a couple hundred. Yes this keeps some young guys out but don't player hate these guys because they know how to save money for when killer gear comes out.

[Lithan]

Alot of people define skill differently than I do.

Opp, Charlie, Kunuuk, Fugger and everyone out there with the monster scores have know how. I'm not saying that anyone with their goods could get their scores. If I had their goods I certainly couldn't (Because I'm not willing to test every single setting on/off/etc looking for the slightest performance gains). But I don't consider know-how to be skill.

Musical instruments are skill-based. I know the guitar tab to Diary of a madman by heart. I can also play diary of a madman. If I give someone who cant play guitar the tab to diary of a madman, he wont be able to play it. Because it's skill based. If Kunuuk gave me his hardware and told me every setting he uses, I could obviously get the same scores he gets. The accomplishment is finding those settings and setting up that particular hardware, which are not based on skill; but rather on money, effort, knowledge, and dedication. Again, I'm not downplaying the accomplishments of these people. But I don't find overclocking to be a skill. It's more of a science.

[Spec3]

Originally posted by gouda96
Contrary to what spec3 said, I believe that if I were given opp's hardware I seriously doubt I would be able to break or meat his scores. There are quite a few people that have hardware equal to opp and macci, yet they never seem to be able to beat them. Call it skill if you'd like, but I feel they possess something that sets them apart from the rest, and it isn't just money...but I could be wrong :toast:

also, money will pretty much take care of the luck part...or having a fry's near you...if only there was one in atl!

Well let me be a tad more specific. I don't consider 3dmark to be pure overclocking. It has a large element of overclocking, but then there is also the software tweaking, OS tweaking and all of those other things that go on to make a good score great. These things to me aren't part of overclocking. Yes they do make your system "faster", but it's still not overclocking. So sure they get the best 3dmark scores and that's fine and dandy, but I'm sure other people out there can OC their hardware....not software to speeds much faster than the 3dmark guys (look at Japan for instance)

Steve

[SAE]

Originally posted by Spec3
So sure they get the best 3dmark scores and that's fine and dandy, but I'm sure other people out there can OC their hardware....not software to speeds much faster than the 3dmark guys (look at Japan for instance)

Steve

Yeah. It's always a question of what we consider overclocking... is tweaking included? I mean, everything that can be tweaked.

But according to these japanese guys... I know they must have skills in how to get along with those dangerous coolants as LN2 or dry ice... but overclocking for me is a lil more than pump up the cpu to 2.5V, throw some LN2 into the cpu cylinder and hope it will last at least for the 3minutes the bootup and pifast run takes...

It's an opinion, not more... and it seems Kunaak knew the thread would fly :D... as there are so much different points of view.

[ns_ripper]

you need some of all.

you need to have luck, to find the über clocking stuff.
you need money to buy all this stuff.
You need a lot of skills, to know all important things, (like knowing wich hdd controller can take a high pci, the order to run 3dmark, other windows and driver tweaks, ....)

you have to got some good logics (brains) to sort all kinds of problems out,...

you need some of everything. Money "can" be an important factor, since you need it to buy your stuff.

eg: I can't buy nventiv stuff, because I can't afford it :)

but if you can afford it, you still need to have a lot of skills, experience and luck.

[interman]

Originally posted by ns_ripper
you need some of all.

you need to have luck, to find the über clocking stuff.
you need money to buy all this stuff.
You need a lot of skills, to know all important things, (like knowing wich hdd controller can take a high pci, the order to run 3dmark, other windows and driver tweaks, ....)

you have to got some good logics (brains) to sort all kinds of problems out,...

you need some of everything. Money "can" be an important factor, since you need it to buy your stuff.

eg: I can't buy nventiv stuff, because I can't afford it :)

but if you can afford it, you still need to have a lot of skills, experience and luck.

but then again, much of what you list can be considered having knowledge of certain things, not necessarily skill.

skill is definitely a factor when you're talking first page of orb, or at least with the people who build custom cascades, phase-change, chillers, and so on. you could argue that these people simply have knowledge regarding that area, but if you somehow magically gave someone that knowledge i doubt they'd be able to actually be successful; much like the musician analogy.

[dropadrop]

I think it's pretty important to diffrentiate between benchmarking and overclocking. I'm not into benchmarking, more like just getting the most out of the setup I have. I don't think it takes too much skill, just knolige about what differant bios settings, how to test for stability and patience.

Benchmarking on the other hand needs some skill too. Apart from getting the most out of your overclock, you have to balance on the verge of instability and try to get that tiny amount of points more. Also you should know alot about optimising your operating system for the benchmark being run.

Probably alot of the people who stay at the top of the orb have a chance to go through a large amount of hardware and find the gems among them. This is something most people don't have the oportunity to do, and it could just give them an advantage. To say that this is the only reason they are allways at the top of the orb would be absurd though...

[thomas66]

hello kunaak and all others,

i also would like to post my opinion.

i started to think about oc'ing by the end of last year.
before it was just black terretory for me only thinking
about going into the bios was a real fear for me cause
i always though iam double left handed if it comes to those
matters.

BUT i was curious to do something AND

I FOUND A WEBPAGE CALLED "XTREMESYSTEM.ORG"

So i was reading and reading and reading...i started in small steps
with increasing the fsb etc. and well hell ya i made a lot of mistakes (e.g. not disabling spread spectrum) etc. but ok i learned.
Than my fist real big step was to replace the original heatsink of my p4 with the zalmann and guys believe me or not i brought my computer to my local vendor to do it it cost me € 100,- well so what i said at that time now i have a good cooling.

So i knocked my cpu to 3,5ghz started to bench 3d03
BAAAAANGGGGG smoke...........
i killed my lovely 400w psu
well so after 30minutes of having the new zalmann i went back to my vendor and claimed he must did something wrong....:)
hehehe
and he had to replace my :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:...ty psu with a enermax.... so that was a good thing.

But i was to shy to oc again at that time.

To shorten this up i just want to say that overclocking has a lot to do with skills and you can go in two ways try everything by your own and probably kill a lot of components or you found a webpage like this.

I thank everyone "specially the very skilled members" like kunaak, macci, fugger, saya (helping me with my amd system)..just to mention some

FOR THEIR great help.:banana:

And those are my rankings:

1.fsb changers on a bought system - NOOB
2.fsb changers on a build system - advanced NOOB
3.being able to change everything
accordingly fsb/ram/gpu vdimm
etc. - semi profi
4.=1.-3. + doing mods and using
phase change - profi
5.=1.-4. and beeing no.1 on the orb - xtreme addict

[SAE]

Hehe. Me Xtreme addict... No.1 AMD Athlon XP on the ORB :D

[pkrew]

Originally posted by Lithan

Musical instruments are skill-based. I know the guitar tab to Diary of a madman by heart. I can also play diary of a madman. If I give someone who cant play guitar the tab to diary of a madman, he wont be able to play it. Because it's skill based. If Kunuuk gave me his hardware and told me every setting he uses, I could obviously get the same scores he gets. The accomplishment is finding those settings and setting up that particular hardware, which are not based on skill; but rather on money, effort, knowledge, and dedication. Again, I'm not downplaying the accomplishments of these people. But I don't find overclocking to be a skill. It's more of a science.

It seems that you're rather biased on what you call skill, but then we all like to think what we can do is all that matters. At the same time we need to give credit to what others can do. Everything takes a measure of skill. If you gave the same person that couldn't play your song time to practice and learn the guitar, he could play it. But that would take knowledge, dedication and effort. I doubt you could play it when you started.

You speak of science as if it doesn't take skill. Maybe you could design a retro-virus that can target only cancer cells. Maybe after you completed the 9 years of education and then practiced for 10 years you might start to get somewhere.

What you can with your guitar is a skill, but that doesn't make what everyone else can do :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Cucumber]

Playing guitar, driving well, playing sports. All require endless hours of practice and this is what leads to skill

Overclocking is knowledge, simple as that.

I can see some skill for soldering possibly, and definatly in making your own cooling system. But overclocking? There is none involved....and i have yet to see anyone put anything forward which says otherwise

In reality people at the top of the ORB or w/e have a lot of time, and a lot of money

...theres nothing wrong with that, some people choose to spend their money on one thing while others choose to spend their money computer parts.

But people like Macci or whoever, dont have super powers which allow them to change the FSB of a motherboard higher than any other.

[crotale]

Anyone can tie David Beckham's shoes, gear up a gear in Michael Schumacher's F1 car, or change Macci's FSB, still you consider two of them to have skills and the last one not?

[Cucumber]

Using your feet to control a football and guide it into the top corner of a goal is hardly on a par with pressing the Page Up button on a computer to change a FSB

[crotale]

... and you don't top the orb by just pressing PgUp, neither win F1 by gearing, or a world championchip depending on how you tie shoes.

[Cucumber]

... and you don't top the orb by just pressing PgUp, neither win F1 by gearing, or a world championchip depending on how you tie shoes.

Ok so it involves the clciking of the mouse a few times. but its something ANYBODY could do, given the knowledge of what settings you should use. And the money required

But the others require personal skill, not everyone can do it. And the few who can have practised for hours

[IamAnoobieCheez]

How about "knowledge" ?

I think "knowledge" is a better word than "skill". But I bet most of us were already assuming it's "knowledge" even though we said skill, right?


Grrrreaatttttttttttt Ingredients:

- Money
- Knowledge (which includes experience)
- LUCK (LOL)

:p: :p:

[pkrew]

I think whats being confused here. Is that skill has to be something you do physically. Not true. Skill is many things. This is the same misconception that makes people think that Michael Jordon or Tom Cruise is worth more than some who developes a new vaccine or cures cancer. The thinking here is much to concreit.

[crotale]

Originally posted by Cucumber
Ok so it involves the clciking of the mouse a few times.

LOL! You know it just ain't clicking. :cool:

[ALT-F13]

Ok, some numbers for those who said skill isn't important and money do everything...

There is a lame russian hardware website guide3d.ru. It's owner iAMDevil once asked my girlfriend to give him her rig (actually cpu/mobo/ram/psu combo) for a couple of days for benching.

She owned FX-51/SK8V that time and managed to get 24.3k on yet unmodded system (2.5GHz, R9800XT@ something like 490/840). Of course with full software tweaking, right test order, etc. Remember the numbers 'cos now we'll compare them with iAMDevil's results...
He used vidcard with similar clocks, enabled his cheating Nature shader (+20FPS gain and it is confirmed - he officially said he used cheats) and got... 22.9k! So basically 22.5k real score. And he really fought for that score, that wasn't done with 1 run.

Just see what "proper tuning" can do! Equal hardware and 2k drop... Skill plays a big role in benching... And you said "give a n00b great hardware and he'll beat Macci".

[Cucumber]

Skill is NOT knowing which settings gain you the best 3dmark score. ANYONE given the knowledge and money could get the top 3dmark score.

Macci does not have super powers, so that when he touches his computer it magically goes faster. He simply knows which settings are the fastest, and has the money to buy the hardware. This is KNOWLEGE, and MONEY

[pkrew]

Originally posted by Cucumber
Skill is NOT knowing which settings gain you the best 3dmark score. ANYONE given the knowledge and money could get the top 3dmark score.

Macci does not have super powers, so that when he touches his computer it magically goes faster. He simply knows which settings are the fastest, and has the money to buy the hardware. This is KNOWLEGE, and MONEY

And Skill. Skill is anything that is aquired by leaning and practice. Look it up!!. Why don't you just prove your point by showing us what you can do.

[Cucumber]

If you know in which order to press the buttons on your microwave in order to defrost 400g of chicken breast. You are not considered to be skilled. Same concept

Im sorry if i do not ejactulate at the sight of 30,000 3dmarks

[pkrew]

Hardly, my gradmother can use a microwave, but she has troube even using a computer. I could teach her for years and she's still have trouble. The same is true for many. Let alone build one. Again, why don't you put up or shut up. Its just a few buttons. Should be easy. Show us what you've got. Unless you're too busy ejaculating.

[Cucumber]

No im not ejactulating thats my point...

also i have better things to spend my money on other than PCB :) girls, cars, going out etc. you should try it sometime :)

[pkrew]

Lmao, Been with more girls than you've seen, my car is in my sig, and there's always a cop out. The truth is you just don't have the skill and you don't want to show us.

[oc-rookie]

Originally posted by Cucumber
If you know in which order to press the buttons on your microwave in order to defrost 400g of chicken breast. You are not considered to be skilled. Same concept


The microwave was made and designed to do that, you're not taking it out of it's comfort zone. Bad analogy dude.

Hardware and software from the manufacturers are not made, designed, released to the public to run at the speeds and level of efficiency that some of the users listed on the poll get them to.

Originally posted by Cucumber
Im sorry if i do not ejactulate at the sight of 30,000 3dmarks

I thought this was an enthusiast site? :stick:

Originally posted by Cucumber
also i have better things to spend my money on other than PCB girls, cars, going out etc. you should try it sometime

Plenty of us have nice cars, girlfirends, wives and a life outside of here.

Enjoy your stay at XS. Make yourself at home.

[NoStra]

When everyone has the same hardware, you have to have the knowledge of that hardware and software, but you also have to FEEL how it responds on certain errors. Where is the limit? What is limitting it? You have to have a certain feeling of the mobo, cpu, gfxcard and memory.... otherwise you will never get a monsterscore.

[texuspete00]

Age old car analogy... monkey's can drive, monkeys can even drive fast, but they are no Dale Earnhart.

Sure there is more stuff to a car but the top 3dm guys are the builder, the mechanic, the pit crew, and the racer. The BIOS statements and this and that are kind of lame. The press this button in the bios notion is crap. Thats your level 1 overclocker. People keep throwing some of our best members in the mud. What about all the volt mods and keeping crazy temps in check. Walking a fine line on high scores vrs. dead stuff. To be #1 at nearly anything requires skill.

Alot of people on this site are adults and this anti-girl, going out notion is also crap. Thats some kind of thing in high school at best. You like computers, you are a dork or a nerd. Pfft.... Adults dont care about these silly little stereotypes. Glad I became a 'geek' when I was 22, when no one really gives a damn.

Do all you really think given the exact same gear you could get OPP or Macci's score... easy as that? Yes I know, if they told you everything. Maybe you get close but that little more bump of v might just go poof. Close in a race is crap though. Most races are separated by a matter of seconds but these last couple seconds or points is always the difference.

The skill definition is whacked too. Hate to break it to you guys but most everyone can learn how to play the guitar... really its true. The people who have a knack for it will always be better. I like to think I can do many things if I put my mind to it. So much so that by your definitions very little is skill. You cant be a skilled driver, mechanic, guitar player, all sorts of stuff... no skill. Not trying to be a bragger or something, I dont get some of the posts is all. How much stuff do you think is totally beyond your mental grasp? So many awful 'skill' arguments. It was even said you can't have soldering skills, it's pointing at something with a hot pencil or something like that!?! Everything can be made to sound dumb. Artists draw lines and curved lines. Surgeons cut and stitch. Anything done on a computer is pressing this and that button. I guess I have no Database skills. I will probably be fired and soon replaced with a monkey since I click and press all day.

[gouda96]

I never dealt with that crap about being a computer nerd in highschool. Whenever I brought a new girl over, which was quite often thankfully :D, I would always show her my computers at some point...maybe because it was on the way to the theater in my basement where we were going to uh...watch movies...

anway...it always seem to impress them. To girls that no jack shiznit about computers, the little I know, seems very impressive. Most girls are impressed by brains, and anyone that thinks differently doesn't have any.

[SAE]

Originally posted by gouda96
anway...it always seem to impress them. To girls that no jack shiznit about computers, the little I know, seems very impressive. Most girls are impressed by brains, and anyone that thinks differently doesn't have any.

hehehe :D

You just should not look like a pale stay-at-home ;)

[kakaroto]

Both has to do with it. (MONEY and SKILL)
If one is missing, then overclocking will fail.

People with LOT of money can buy the best cooling (like a evap). With little skill, lets say limited to the bios "chipset features" :) they will come pretty far.
But they will never maxed out the last stable MHz, THAT required SKILL and patience.
So money isn't the important case.

Everybody with that skill can overclock.

But people with limited money (like me :) )with high OC experience/skill, they will Overclock with style.
Maby slower, but a better OC %.

To be the fastest is great, but not really important.. how far you tune your hardware ..thats overclocking.

[Walrusbonzo]

Originally posted by SAE
hehehe :D

You just should not look like a pale stay-at-home ;)

He's right, girls dig intellects, at least intelligent girls do, and quite frankly, dumb ones annoy the hell out of me :D

Back on topic.......

For me overclocking definitely has an aspect of skill involved. For me, money is not a major part of the issue.

Opp could spend thousands on getting his FX53 to 3GHz, but I could spend £100 on a second hand PC with a Duron 600 and with a few cooling and volt mods maybe get 1500MHz out of it which in my opinion would have more skill involved, in a sense.......

What I'm saying is that to get the fastest PC in the world requires lots of money, lots of skill, lots of knowledge, and lots of luck. But take away the money and you could still have someone with the fastest PC in a price class/category, this does not take away any skill.

You certainly don't need a Prommie or watercooling to be skillful either. I've seen people get 2.7/2.8GHz out of their Mobile athlons air cooled, IMO that has more skill as it should be a lot harder to do such a thing!

Soldering, part of most skillful overclockers' lives is something I learned to do in an Electronics factory. I was a competent solderer, but some there just had a knack for it, like the soldering iron was an extension of their body. This is a skill that most of us have varying degrees of, but it's whats required to be a great overclocker, and I'm sure some of the best solderers are part of the top bunch. Much can be said the same for custom phase change systems.

[Shroomalistic]

I believe it is based on..

1. Knowlegde of how the bios work and the basics of overclocking

2. Good cooling and knowing that dispersal of heat is a key factor

3. Lots of money, only if you want to compete with the big boys. You can buy cheap stuff and overclock it but your most likely not going to get the #1 score in 3dmark.

Just my 2 cents.

[Shroomalistic]

Oh yeah, and you need a good forum to come too when you need advise.;)

[spaceman]

Originally posted by Walrusbonzo
I've seen people get 2.7/2.8GHz out of their Mobile athlons air cooled, IMO that has more skill as it should be a lot harder to do such a thing! Why, thank you, sir! lol :D It's also luck, as has already been pointed out, cause those same guys can't make just ANY mobile do 2.7 GHz. ;)

[SAE]

Originally posted by spaceman
Why, thank you, sir! lol :D It's also luck, as has already been pointed out, cause those same guys can't make just ANY mobile do 2.7 GHz. ;)

Yeah. Luck to get this good cpu, then a bit of deafness to stand the noise of these whining fans :lol:

[gouda96]

My mobile 2400 could do 2.75 no sweat, and I have a ttsfII turned down to where it makes almost no noise on an slk900(u) on my pos unmodded nf7-s r2(soon to be vdd/ vdim/ vcore/ nb & sb &mosfet cooling modded), but it didn't take much skill. Just basic changing of fsb, multi, and volts, luck was the major factor there.

[hrhrhrfoot]

This is jojokaizer whos arguing with you. He has been known to have been a troll on GF.

[spaceman]

Originally posted by SAE
Yeah. Luck to get this good cpu, then a bit of deafness to stand the noise of these whining fans :lol: Just hook up a couple or few 120mm fans in your case, then you can get rid of those "little whiners". :banana:

[boshi]

there are a few ingredients, I would count it as:

50% money
35% skill
15% luck

There is nobody who has ever gotten close to the top 3dmark scores with air cooling and publicly available hardware.

[IvanAndreevich]

boshi
Mach 2 GT is publically available..

[SAE]

Originally posted by spaceman
Just hook up a couple or few 120mm fans in your case, then you can get rid of those "little whiners". :banana:

Hehe. I did not say my rig isn't loud ;)

I have two YS tech 120x38mm 125CFM or so at full speed on my heater core. Then the two mach2 fans on turbo. Those even speed up and down sometimes... weird sound. Maybe it can be fixed by firmware update!?

[The Runner]

i think it requires alot of skill to get the highest 3dmark scores etc. But also it requires alot of money and time to get the best overclocking rig.

[boshi]

Originally posted by IvanAndreevich
boshi
Mach 2 GT is publically available..

read my post, THEN comment.

[IvanAndreevich]

boshi
Uh yeah I am commenting on your funny restriction to air cooling _only_ for some reason. If you have money and want to overclock you won't have air cooling even if you are a noob.

[boshi]

Originally posted by IvanAndreevich
boshi
Uh yeah I am commenting on your funny restriction to air cooling _only_ for some reason. If you have money and want to overclock you won't have air cooling even if you are a noob.

the reason I said air cooling, is to discount the people who just get good scores because they were the first to get new hardware when it comes out.

This is to prove my point that even if you are only of average skill, your budget is your bottleneck.

A n00b with a mach II GT is going to beat an expert with a thermalright heatsink.

[SAE]

Originally posted by boshi
A n00b with a mach II GT is going to beat an expert with a thermalright heatsink.

Yep. It's like a noob with a X800XT beating my top AXP/r350 score... :rolleyes:

[DaveX]

*shakes fist at SAE...telling him to wait and see when I get v-mods done, case cut up for watercooling, and 9800XT gets here* :D

[boshi]

Originally posted by SAE
Yep. It's like a noob with a X800XT beating my top AXP/r350 score... :rolleyes:

I'm bad at reading the rolleyes smiley, was that sarcasm ( disagreeing with my point), or annoyance( agreeing with my point)?

[SAE]

Originally posted by boshi
I'm bad at reading the rolleyes smiley, was that sarcasm ( disagreeing with my point), or annoyance( agreeing with my point)?

It was annoyance... :D

I am sorry. I know its description is sarcasm in the smilie window...

[IvanAndreevich]

boshi
>>A n00b with a mach II GT is going to beat an expert with a thermalright heatsink.

We agree then :) This is my point as well.

[AcEmAsTr]

Overclocking IS a skill :p:

[macci]

>>A n00b with a mach II GT is going to beat an expert with a thermalright heatsink.
if you are 'an expert' and going for the highest scores/OCs you are more than likely useing dryice, selfmade waterchiller etc etc instead of thermalright heatsink - the cost is roughly the same..

lets take a simple superpi 8m example:

3.2E (~300€) + mach2 GT (++1000€) + noob
2.4A (~140€) + dryice (~30€) + expert

Which one is going to win?

[Hallowed]

Originally posted by macci
if you are 'an expert' and going for the highest scores/OCs you are more than likely useing dryice, selfmade waterchiller etc etc instead of thermalright heatsink - the cost is roughly the same..

lets take a simple superpi 8m example:

3.2E (~300€) + mach2 GT (++1000€) + noob
2.4A (~140€) + dryice (~30€) + expert

Which one is going to win?

Neither, the mosfets will catch fire and melt the polar caps. :eek:

[macci]

Neither, the mosfets will catch fire and melt the polar caps.
:D

'overclocking is the sport of the braindead'

[Hallowed]

Originally posted by macci
:D

'overclocking is the sport of the braindead'

Well then, after the massive flood levels Scandinavia you can overclock your surfboard. :D

[SAE]

Originally posted by macci
:D

'overclocking is the sport of the braindead'

Huh? What did ya say? :confused:

:lol:

[Spec3]

Originally posted by Hallowed
Well then, after the massive flood levels Scandinavia you can overclock your surfboard. :D

Waves were pretty good for the yesterday already :toast:

Steve

[boshi]

Originally posted by AcEmAsTr
Overclocking IS a skill :p:

no, it's not a skill, it's a hobby. And like any hobby, the person with more money to spend is going to have the more impressive collection.

I'm not trying to say my art teacher with a mach II GT is going to get a higher score than myself, having a thermalright heatsink, because she would have no idea how to even run a benchmarking program, let alone attach the prometia unit.

There is some skill involved, but the people with the kind of money to put into having 3 vapochills on an FX-53 and an x800 pro, versus me, who is having to stretch my wallet to get a VGA silencer for my 9600XT to run with my XP mobile, are going to win hands down. The only skill involved is not going to seperate the unskilled from the skilled, it's just going to seperate the unskilled with $3K to spend on cooling from the skilled with $3k to spend on cooling.

[macci]

Getting most out of any given hardware (doesn't matter if its 20€ or 2000€ part) is the only 'skill' I can think of.

It requires 'know-how', time, nerves, luck, blood and tears, cooling equipment (selfmade or commercial - whichever your wallet can take), soldering iron, food&drink and some good OCing music. :D

[SAE]

Originally posted by macci
Getting most out of any given hardware (doesn't matter if its 20€ or 2000€ part) is the only 'skill' I can think of.

It requires 'know-how', time, nerves, luck, blood and tears, cooling equipment (selfmade or commercial - whichever your wallet can take), soldering iron, food&drink and some good OCing music. :D

Yeah, macci. That's an attitude I fully share with ya :thumbsup:

[Shroomalistic]

Originally posted by macci
Getting most out of any given hardware (doesn't matter if its 20€ or 2000€ part) is the only 'skill' I can think of.

It requires 'know-how', time, nerves, luck, blood and tears, cooling equipment (selfmade or commercial - whichever your wallet can take), soldering iron, food&drink and some good OCing music. :D


I think the music is the key thing :D

[wkmgt]

Hey Macci,

Don't think it's for the braindead!! It's fun!! No different from jazzin up a car, a jet or rocket or what ever else you're into.

Tell Sonny Barger with the Hell's Angel's that modding his cycle is only for the braindead. He / They might not like it!! (Extreme Example) Give Yourself Some Credit!!

It's fun watching your achievments!!

[SuperDude]

Originally posted by Çhrist0ph
because im an "overclocker", my friends think of me as "that douche who always kills his hardware..."

little do they know...
but you know when you kill your hardware, its upgarde time! Plus if you kill your stuff for just 100 more 3dmarks, its worth it

[gouda96]

Originally posted by SuperDude
but you know when you kill your hardware, its upgarde time! Plus if you kill your stuff for just 100 more 3dmarks, its worth it

Just as long as you get the score published:toast:

[spaceman]

Originally posted by macci
Getting most out of any given hardware (doesn't matter if its 20€ or 2000€ part) is the only 'skill' I can think of.

It requires 'know-how', time, nerves, luck, blood and tears, cooling equipment (selfmade or commercial - whichever your wallet can take), soldering iron, food&drink and some good OCing music. :D Now I see MY prob, I'm listening to the wrong music. :p: :D

[.::$k4T4N::.]

its a little bit of everything.
some programs are easy to use.
but when when you are modding the hardware you must have skill.


...and also money for the right equipment ;)


btw: what music are u listening to when you oc??

[zabomb4163]

anyone who has seen hipro's motherboard would NEVER say its just money. he invented almost 1/2 of the vmods in existance and somhow i dont think he just bought a couple hundred motherboards and just crossed his fingers every time he added a resistor or got asus to send him a vmod guide.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24520

(371fsb)