New Vapochill LS...Mach 2 clone

[Jeff]

Not being a wise-guy at all but why aren't people considering the Mach1 at $490 delivered from Kit-Tronics.com. Even at the $899 that FrozenCPU.com is offering the LS for, you can almost get a 2 for 1 deal for the Mach1(and you do get a 2 for 1 deal if you compare these to the Mach2).

Again, not trying to be a jerk but I still think the Mach1 is a great deal. Do people really need to see -48.3c at the evaporator?

BTW, Kit-Tronics also sells the Mach2 for $910 delivered in North America... which after you factor in taxes for the LS, the Mach2 is actually cheaper. ;)

[Shep]

OT:

Whooa chill texuspete, it was ment as a totaly offtopic funny remark about player0's oftopic remark just over (I didn't quote it and because of my sloow typing someone snook between). About one of those "urban legends". Which I thought would shine thru by the use of this --> :)

[:D]But since you seem full prejudice and with lesser cognitive skills than me[/:D] this got way out of control. Sorry to hear that it got taken the wrong way :( Pm me for anything further on this.

But fact is there are some comments of taking one another to court, and who copied who in this thread. It's like who came first the hen or the egg.

And chances are if you invent or build something state of the art, chances are big that someone else have been there before you.

We (modern society) like to think we invented concrete, but the romans used concrete about 2 thousand years before us. We have just improved the technique a little.

Same goes to this topic, some people have been supercooling electronics since way back, then Kryotech and Asetek came along adapting the technique for consumer usage. Then Nventive came along and improved on some parts of the technique and now we have race between the only two existing in this field. Which hopefully will give us (consumers) gradual improvements in this field for some time to come.

And Nventive should have something on the steps, because the coming of something like the LS was inevitable. It had to come if Asetek were to continue selling phase change.

As for their likeness (mach's and ls) I see some good in it (not the lian li look but size, bolting holes etc.), this could be the beginning of an emerging standard for how commercial phasechange units should be made. I for one don't like buying a new case every time I feel like swapping to the competing brand.

As of now Asetek, atleast on paper, seem to have the edge. Somewhere down the road Nventive might take it back. Or someone else if some other actors step in the market.

To the two only bad parts in this:

The way Asetek went about borrowing design ideas from baker18 (not the round part they've done that for years but the internals), is highly questionable. At least ethichly. I don't know the details but I got the impression that he was never asked in advance.

Edit: And since bakers design is considered to be very good by the respected figures in the phasechange forum. This seems a good deal for us consumers. Unfortunatly it's a less of a good deal for baker.

The other was how they went about getting Nventive to adjust their "overly streched/false (pick one from personal preferences)" claims about cooling abilities. There is no doubt they had to do that from a marketing point of view. Since atleast on paper the ls would be the colder compared to mach2. That could have been handled alot smoother, the way it got done, in my view, was amaturelike and stoopidish.

Sorry about this and my earlier OT'ness.

[Phyrox]

Jeff I talked to kit-tronics.com and their going to carry the LS too. They are going to sell the LS for $850~870 shipped to the U.S. as well so it will be a bit cheaper.

Well I dont actually think im going to get one anymore. If my mach2 does not sell im keeping it and will mod it to r507 and replace the fans. However if it does sell im in luck.

Spent a lot of time talking to captain cascade :) i guess you know what that means...

going to get a single evap custom system that will do -40C load. Of course this will KILL the mach2, LS, mach1, xe, pe, se, ect.

What do you guys think?

[Jeff]

Hey Phyrox, did you happen to talk to Greer? He's a freakin' trip. :) You can tell he knows his stuff and has been in the business a while. Extremely nice guy in my book! :up:

[Phyrox]

Yup Greer is the only guy I talk to there. We talk for like 2hours easy and dont even realize it! Yes he does know alot..Has a technical background and hes been to denmark a few times to watch the nventiv manafactuing process :) Really knows alot. He seems to be a nventiv fanboy though :D Also he doesnt buy that our phasechange experts know much more than the in house engineers of asetek and nventiv...His arguement was that the CEO of asetek used to work for kyrotech...Hes a great guy though and I enjoy talking to him. Also he gives me hints on NDA stuff :toast:

[Phyrox]

Sux that they took bakers design without asking...All they did was give him one LS. One ls is not enough...5 wouldnt be enough and I bet bakers pride was hurt too!

[chilly1]

,,,

[TheDude]

Actually, I think it was pretty decent that they did give Baker an LS. They could have easily gotten away with not giving him anything. There is probably a reason for trying to keep him happy that we don't know about.

Chilly, hell I don't even remember what the topic is anymore?:D

[chilly1]

Did they take bakers Idea? I would like to see inside the block of the LS. I have patents on everything I have posted and provisionals on all my ideas. And I copywrite my drawings...

[Minnyboy]

Originally posted by chilly1
Did they take bakers Idea? I would like to see inside the block of the LS. I have patents on everything I have posted and provisionals on all my ideas. And I copywrite my drawings...

Originally posted by Support2/asetek
Sorry guys, but this was thought out before the very beginning of Xtremesystems ;) Of course we look in various forums - Xtremesystems is one of them. We see a lot of advice from customers and others, and if we find them useful, we of course adopt them to improve our quality and performance. If these ideas is intelectual property of others, we of course respect that.

Our new evaporator design is a hybrid between different ideas, and one of the designs we got inspired from was Bakers. We acknowledge that, and he will get a VapoChill LS for free at his doorstep. It's not a copy of his design, as we improved it, but we would like to credit him for his ideas.

3. Since the first entrance of Lian Li cases on the market, people have been building in their VapoChill unit. Furthermore the original idea of building a compressor into a Lian Li styled box under the PC was done by a case modder from Holland, for a system for CeBIT. When nVENTIV saw that, they "adopted" his idea. So there is really nothing new into this either.


Took this straight off Vapo forums for anyone/everyone here who hasn't read it have a quick gig at it.

Seems to me they took baker18's design.

BTW, what's baker18 got to say about this?? Or did I miss something in these 11 or so pages...

[texuspete00]

Shep -> Thanks for the apology but this makes me want to explain a little something:

Originally posted by Shep
OT:
[:D]But since you seem full prejudice and with lesser cognitive skills than me[/:D]

But when I said :

"I had to comment on this. The sorry state your cognitive systems are in... It's rediculous."

I was trying to make a point, all I did was change your own wording to reflect negatively on you, using your own quote:

"Sorry couldn't help commenting on this:.... The coffee spilling- and lady/dog/microwave- and other similar cases tells more about the sorry state the US legal systems is in. Those cases are ridiulous."

Know what I mean? I didnt mean anything negative. Just a point. I dont really use words like cognitive but I had to fit in something before systems having something to do with intelligence... lol.. Thanks for setting this right with me. Like I said a similar thing happenned recently and I was on my last nerve. Peace, love, and drunkeness

:toast:

:buddies:

So no more OT, i'm satisfied. We should be able to work it out. If the mods had gotten to it we may still hate each other. They cant predict the morale of the peoples so I dont blame them, but I do hope these post stay as the way things 'can' go. This is OT, turned useful. I'm passionate BUT ALSO reasonable. At the end of the day OUR flags wave strong. :usa:

oh yeah... and who wants to sell some custom vapor solutions? ;)

H-2-hoe- just isnt cutting it?

[wijdeveld]

Since the Asetek forum keeps referring me to here, I've subscribed ;)
I've done a little of the research for Asetek (mainly on waterblocks, but I’ve also taken a look at the evaporation process). Could somebody (Bowman?) PM me what the exact dispute is about regarding the new evaporation head design of Asetek?

[phobos]

Ah...hello wijdeveld :D

[Autobahn]

I found the link to Tom Versteeg's actual Lian Li Design which nventive were inspired by ;)

http://home.wanadoo.nl/a.p.versteeg/Home%20Page%20Prometeia-Li.htm

The guy now works for Epox i think.

Do you guys know what asetek mean by "mass-produced" ?

[cpulloverclock]

I've the new cpu Kit for Socket 478, 754, 939 and 940 :)

http://www.asetek.com/filarkiv/Products/LightSpeed/CPU-kit-exploded001.gif
http://www.asetek.com/filarkiv/Products/LightSpeed/CPU-kit-Collectbuttom.gif
http://membres.lycos.fr/cpulloverclock79/8.jpg

[TheDude]

Originally posted by wijdeveld
Since the Asetek forum keeps referring me to here, I've subscribed ;)
I've done a little of the research for Asetek (mainly on waterblocks, but I’ve also taken a look at the evaporation process). Could somebody (Bowman?) PM me what the exact dispute is about regarding the new evaporation head design of Asetek?

Welcome to Xtreme! :D

I don't think Bowman is the one to answer this for you as he has not made any comments publicly about this that I have seen.
I think you will have to ask individual people who post about this.

I think the comments come from the fact that the two blocks seem to be very similar in design and function, combined with the fact that 2 members who posted to this forum under the names Zubzero and builderbob were traced back to originate from behind aseteks firewall. Builderbob was known to ask very technical R&D type questions of our leading experts here.

I know that asetek has had a round shaped 360 rotating design off and on several times during their different models, but asetek admitted on their own forum to using and "improving" on ideas gleaned from this forum. They are sending Baker a new LS machine because of this and I think thats a decent thing for asetek to do.

I'm not sure I would call this a "dispute".

[Nico]

I suppose this makes sense out of the Nventiv temp drama's. Asetek wanted to clear the air as the MachII still incorrectly beat there forth coming unit on paper.

The LS looks like a nice unit :thumbsup: and as has been mentioned, it is really baseing the unit on a practical setup where not much varation is possible. Not many liked the old Vapo cases and had been asking for years for stand alone units or factory fitted Lian li cases as an option, so they have only catered for the demand. All vapos since the socket classic have had 360 degree rotating heads so I don't see anything new there.

I find it really amusing how people complain and cry cheat when someone delivers on what they have been asking for. I really look forward to Bowman's comparison and new offerings in general. ;)

[wijdeveld]

Originally posted by TheDude
... I'm not sure I would call this a "dispute".
That's a relieve :toast:
I won't turn it into one but I can't refrain from one 'thought blurb'.
I know there are some real experts in here, so I won't bother with going into too much detail about the basics (you can do a check-up if you want: http://www.home.zonnet.nl/wijdeveld/cooling/part1.pdf )

As you all know, evaporation takes time. In a very simple scenario the evaporation takes place directly at the end of the capillar (after the pressure drop):

[wijdeveld]

So, in an ideal scenario, residence time inside the evaporator chamber isn't important.

But now Asetek improves on the design and uses a bigger (220V) compressor and better suction line, meaning the residence time decreases and the amount of molecules inside the chamber also decreases (faster sucked away). This will decrease the vapor temperature readout on your display (always a nice gimmick ;) ) but will decrease your heat adsorption capacity (and C/W ratio).

So, Asetek had to do something to increase the flow length. We've discussed the use of small fins with different inlet points (keeping the same flow):

[Tom Holck]

Originally posted by QuadDamage
LOL shoulda said "cooling" unit.

LOL, what does 65 kg airmail from Denmark to you cost?

(Its the COOLING-unit not me, I am at 92 kg):D

[wijdeveld]

The fins didn't help much.

Since the goal is to increase the system friction (and therefore the molecule density) at the point were it most counts, the next logical step seems to be to use some kind of labyrinth design.

This way you increase the residence time, giving the liquid enough time to 'adept'; to the lower pressure and extract the evaporation energy from the copper chamber surface (and therefore CPU) and also increase the molecule count at the place it is most beneficial (increasing the total heat capacity of the vapor phase).

So, I don't know Bowman's design, but it seems logical to me Asetek had to improve on the chamber design (as discusses a year ago in the Vapochill forum).

I hope this clarify things a bit. I hope we can stop heating things up and start freezing again
:D

[phobos]

I hope this clarify things a bit. I hope we can stop heating things up and start freezing again

:toast:

[TheDude]

wijdeveld,

Nice posts and charts too. Actually it's Baker's design, but he did have a lot of input from Bowman as I understand it.
I hope you decide to stick around and continue to contribute to the forum. ;)
You seem to be someone who can make his point in a mature, logical way without becoming overly excited and emotional. ;)

[chilly1]

Originally posted by wijdeveld
So, in an ideal scenario, residence time inside the evaporator chamber isn't important.

But now Asetek improves on the design and uses a bigger (220V) compressor and better suction line, meaning the residence time decreases and the amount of molecules inside the chamber also decreases (faster sucked away). This will decrease the vapor temperature readout on your display (always a nice gimmick ;) ) but will decrease your heat adsorption capacity (and C/W ratio).

So, Asetek had to do something to increase the flow length. We've discussed the use of small fins with different inlet points (keeping the same flow):
I looked through your logic and it appears that you try to treat a vapor as somthing different in your calculations other than a Fluid (which it is) If you import your capillary models from soil psysics the two phase multi fluidic model flow would better serve you in those calculations, I didn't and data on the heat conductivity from the die based on either fin cross section or surface area?
As stated a maze design (Invented in the 1890's for ice production) is always a better option. I also noticed that the TD on the copper blocks were skewed for lower temperatures there appears to be better thermal transport at lower temperatures while the silver has better at higher temperatures? Were your values merly a calculated model or an actual psysical model?

[wijdeveld]

Hi chilly1,

I've listed the model assumptions at the end of the article (chapter 6). Basically, I've translated the heat production of the die to a chemical system component (named 'heat') which travels as a conservative tracer through a soil system (the copper core) toward a liquid (being the real world vapor). I've translated the evaporation energy to a colder initial injection temperature and the heat capacity of the vapor was used instead of that of a liquid. By variation of the porosity of the 'solid' phase based on the heat capacity of copper, aluminum and silver, the different heat transport capacities for these metals were taken into account.

Much was done on assumption and calibration based on my Vapochill PE measurements since the model I used is developed for chemical pollutant transport in groundwater. It served it's purpose for evaluating differences in temperature in the CPU die with different cold plate materials, but it is limited with regard to incorporating capillary effects and reaction kinetics for evaporation (normally the model is run for 10.000 years, now for 10 seconds ;) )

Afterwards, the model has been applied with much more detail to the Waterchill block, for which it is much more suited.

[paul007]

Hey if the compressor used is a 220v 50hz model how does it plug into 115v 60hz wall outlet?? is there a converter inside??

I ask becasue looking over danfoss's data sheets I dont see a 115v unit the same as this one.

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by paul007
Hey if the compressor used is a 220v 50hz model how does it plug into 115v 60hz wall outlet?? is there a converter inside??

I ask becasue looking over danfoss's data sheets I dont see a 115v unit the same as this one.

well all i can say is there are no 115 v models as of yet..i have it from someone at asetek that there will be one soon.as soon as there is one available there will be one shipped direct to baker.
i would guess over the next couple of weeks there will be one avalable.

[TheDude]

wijdeveld,

You address inner surface area, but what do you use for external surface area of your cold plate on your heat loader? What surface area is your heat removal wattage based on? Is the contact area based on the size of the die of a certain type processor?(die simulator) Or are you using the entire surface area of a cold plate of say...2 inches square? What I'm trying to ask is what contact surface area, where the actual heat tranferance takes place is being used and is it consistant in all of your tests? Thanks

[Gary Lloyd]

If the following chart is to be trusted (I'm waiting for Bowman's tests), then there is not only an improvement in evap temps over the prommie, but a very substantial advantage in heat transfer between the evap and the CPU (better block design).

I wonder what sort of firestorm will result if/when nVentiv switches to a similar design.

http://www.asetek.com/filarkiv/Products/LightSpeed/Cooling-performance.gif

[JBELL]

I NEVER trust charts from a company's own testing .... no offense to asetek this time but I ONLY listen to third party testings.

[Gary Lloyd]

I NEVER trust charts from a company's own testing .... no offense to asetek this time but I ONLY listen to third party testings.


I agree. Whatsmore Bowman goes to great lengths to ensure that his load simulations represent actual conditions. I would consider his results to be meticulously honest, accurate, and impartial.

[WxChaser]

Whats more Bowman goes to great lengths to ensure that his load simulations represent actual conditions. I would consider his results to be meticulously honest, accurate, and impartial. I couldn't agree with you more on this one, Gary. All his testing is meticuluous and no one takes more time or is more careful with how he builds his systems or tests them. Ask Dale, Hobocrow and a host of others and all of us will agree.

[wijdeveld]

Originally posted by TheDude
wijdeveld,

You address inner surface area, but what do you use for external surface area of your cold plate on your heat loader? What surface area is your heat removal wattage based on? Is the contact area based on the size of the die of a certain type processor?(die simulator) Or are you using the entire surface area of a cold plate of say...2 inches square? What I'm trying to ask is what contact surface area, where the actual heat tranferance takes place is being used and is it consistant in all of your tests? Thanks
Hi TheDude,

The phase change model is more like a 2-D cross-section through the die, so the contact area is the same as inner surface area. I now this isn't perfect (wasn't supposed to be), therefore the later models take the Intel die size into consideration. It's described in the report and on the Vapochill forum :)

The phase change model was developed to test the influence of different cold plate materials, thickness, presence or absence of TIM and R404a filling versus R134a (and flow rate, but only roughly to have en educated guess on the influence of the vapor pressure). All models can be refined (see the Waterchill results) but at that time there wasn't a design problem (just a R404a refill to consider ;) ).

I've always wanted to do a detail study on the capillary pressure drop and the influence of the different gases in the R404a mix on the capillary overload point. Maybe you can give me a pointer if such a model has been developed (I'm sure it is) and which algoritms (formulas) are included.

[paul007]

well all i can say is there are no 115 v models as of yet..i have it from someone at asetek that there will be one soon.as soon as there is one available there will be one shipped direct to baker.
i would guess over the next couple of weeks there will be one avalable.

But you can run 220v 50hz models at home right in the USA? You just have to have an electrican come and install a 220/240v outlet in that room or bench in side the landrey room. :)

[wijdeveld]

Quite off topic, but what's the problem with 220 Volt?
I just had a subwoofer delivered here in Holland from the States (Von Schweikert VRS-1) and apart from mounting a different power connector it was just flipping a switch on the build in amplifier????

[Master_G]

Do these units have a similar switch to PSUs, ie 115/240V (you know that one that makes a big bang and some pretty sparks if you set it wrong ;) :p: )?
Wouldnt this arrangement allow them to work in both the US and UK (and other places of course), and also make the production line simpler?

G

[goodhead]

Hey Phyrox, did you happen to talk to Greer? He's a freakin' trip.


greer rox :D best service i ever got , kit tronic is a good site too, willing to go the extra mile

[phobos]

You can't just install a switch to let a unit run at 115V / 230V.
On Powersupplies it is easy: Most transformers have two secondary coils. With the 115V/130V switch you just connect these coil parallel (115V) or in series (230V) so you'll always have the same secondary voltage and you can always draw the same current.
The frequency is also no problem because in most cases the voltage will be rectified.

But a compressors is driven by a electric motor wich consits of some coils only made for one single voltage. And also the frequency (50Hz/60Hz) would be a problem and result into different speeds.



OT:

I just had a subwoofer delivered here in Holland from the States (Von Schweikert VRS-1) and apart from mounting a different power connector it was just flipping a switch on the build in amplifier????

I think that one would the best subwoofer for my music cuz It seems to be very quick, isn't it? That's what I need to hear clear high-speed death metal drumming :D.

[chilly1]

Originally posted by wijdeveld
Hi chilly1,

I've listed the model assumptions at the end of the article (chapter 6). Basically, I've translated the heat production of the die to a chemical system component (named 'heat') which travels as a conservative tracer through a soil system (the copper core) toward a liquid (being the real world vapor). I've translated the evaporation energy to a colder initial injection temperature and the heat capacity of the vapor was used instead of that of a liquid. By variation of the porosity of the 'solid' phase based on the heat capacity of copper, aluminum and silver, the different heat transport capacities for these metals were taken into account.

Much was done on assumption and calibration based on my Vapochill PE measurements since the model I used is developed for chemical pollutant transport in groundwater. It served it's purpose for evaluating differences in temperature in the CPU die with different cold plate materials, but it is limited with regard to incorporating capillary effects and reaction kinetics for evaporation (normally the model is run for 10.000 years, now for 10 seconds ;) )

Afterwards, the model has been applied with much more detail to the Waterchill block, for which it is much more suited.

Thanks that would explain the variation beyond the norm in the temperature reagon of -20 to -40 It looks as though the data are squed here and slightly beyond the standard deviation I would have expected to also have been carried to the rest of the curve. I would have expected the curve to conform to a more linear function and not deviate in its function much from that of the other coolers based on simmilar materials.

[Phyrox]

So is anyone else planning on buying one? Im going to get mine from kit-tronics for $880 shipped on monday unless someone can convince me not to :)

Not sure if I should really jump on this yet. Can always get a r404a modded mach1 but ot sure hows its going to perform against this. besides i wouldnt like to cover my cpu all over with that nasty hcc compund

how many guys bought this and how many are planning to?

if there really a point if i can get a r507/404a502 modded mach1 or just a mach2. mk1 modded will be $180 less and i already have a mk2 which i can sell in 1min i already got a buyer.

sorry for crapping thread up but plz tel l me what i should do. i cant go for nventivs new product because it will be VERY expensive. thx guys :)

[chilly1]

Additionally are we being fair in the comparison of a R404A model to a R134A model. What happens if we take for instance a R404A model of the MachII and compare it to the LS?

[Gary Lloyd]

Additionally are we being fair in the comparison of a R404A model to a R134A model. What happens if we take for instance a R404A model of the MachII and compare it to the LS?


nVentiv doesn't have a R404A/R507 model, so in order to be fair, we would have to compare it to a modded prommie.

Then to be fair, we would also need to add in the price of modding for price comparison, and also the fact that the modded prommie is warranty void, which as herefishy points out has a cost.

But yes, strictly for an evap performance comparison, we would need to have the same refrigerants, amongst other controlled variables.

[Phyrox]

so should i get the ls then?

[goodhead]

i would wait for cebit its only 1/2 month away, u dont wnat to buy an ls and nventiv comes out w/ something even better in 1/2 month....u'll hate ur self i know i would, think about somethign else for 2 weeks :D

[Phyrox]

i know what nventiv is releasing andi cant afford it

[mdzcpa]

On one hand I'm glad Asetek has stepped up and put something that appears to be worthy into the ring of competition. This is good for the consumer.

On the other hand, it is painfully obvious that Asetek did not try too hard to distinguish its own design at all. It appears that they plan on capitalizing in Nventive's success with the product's visuals. To say "there is no other way to do it" is bulldroppings. It was the simple way is all.

I am hopeful the new vapo will kick some arse. I just wish something a bit more "revolutionary", or even "evolutionary", was released. And with prices not looking to be that low, it looks more like a ho hum knock off than anything else.

BTW, even the name is too damn similar:

Mach II
Light Speed

Naaa...I gues not:rolleyes:

[TheDude]

Phyrox,

Why don't you just regas your MachII with 404?

[Gary Lloyd]

As I see it, they have both copied LianLi's design. If LianLi doesn't mind, which I suspect they don't, then why should I?

[phobos]

i know what nventiv is releasing andi cant afford it

Why do you know what nVentiv is releasing?
When will we know more? After CeBit?

[goodhead]

yeah what is nventiv realeasing, i wnat to know :D

[Master_G]

I kinda guess he isnt allowed to tell us (NDA) because otherwise im pretty sure he would have let slip already.
Im not too keen on the fact that he says he cant afford it and he's considering buying an LS so i guess its going to me quite a bit more expensive than the LS :eek:
Im not sure i will go for the new unit by Nventiv if it costs so much, i can justify to myself the gains you can get from the temps of an LS, but once you go past that it seems to me that you are going to get diminished gains for your money, and i cant justify that to myself (or my poor wallet)
I think they will be presenting it at Cebit, it makes marketing sense, so we will just have to wait until then :(
For the extra cost it sounds like it going to be a killer unit, but i think it will be out of my price range. But tbh i'd be very happy with the temps of an LS :)

G

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Master_G
I kinda guess he isnt allowed to tell us (NDA) because otherwise im pretty sure he would have let slip already.

Or he's just guessing what it's going to be and really has no idea.

Haven't you learned yet, hysteria breads on the internet to a feverish pitch before anybody has any idea what comes next. It's way better to sit there and guess what something will be as opposed to just waiting and seeing. ;)

(no offense original poster, this was not directed at you personally... or anyone else for that matter ;))

[brwmogazos]

Originally posted by Jeff
Or he's just guessing what it's going to be and really has no idea.

Haven't you learned yet, hysteria breads on the internet to a feverish pitch before anybody has any idea what comes next. It's way better to sit there and guess what something will be as opposed to just waiting and seeing. ;)

(no offense original poster, this was not directed at you personally... or anyone else for that matter ;))

well if they release a CPU and GPU cooling unit with dual evaps then yeah...thats gonna be pricey...dunno how long till we see such cooling units though...could be never could be really soon...

if yes then it better be cheap cos were gonna be selling our arms to get one... :eek: :p:

[Hobocrow]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
I agree. Whatsmore Bowman goes to great lengths to ensure that his load simulations represent actual conditions. I would consider his results to be meticulously honest, accurate, and impartial.

Exactly!! Bowman told me I didn't have a very good M2 ... I didn't want to here that, but, it was simply the truth and he told me so! He mod'd it, tweaked it and I got the best M2 that could come from that original ( so so ) unit :)

I know that his review will be just as Gary says and I look forward to learning the truth from it. :toast:

[Phyrox]

I left you many clues in the thread guys...Yes your catchin on CeBit...Nventiv will be presenting and it wont be their mach2...After Cebit will be a few weeks once the product is available for sale

The Dude well I can regas it but look at the money im spending. Now I dontmind spending money at all but heres what I spent on my mach2 so far

mk2 stock w/ enlight case = 1139 shipped
lianli pc65 = 180
lianli mod kit = 150

total is $1469 including shipping

now to do a r404a mod it will be about $22 more so total in mach2 would be 1689$ usd

or sell the mach2 and get most of my money back and get a ls that is already r507 gassed w/ lianli kit for $880 shipped...thats 2x cheaper!

i can ofcourse keep my mnach2 and not do anything but the LS is still cheaper

the new nventiv product will cost more than the ls. this i will tell you...also it wont be called the mach III because mach 3 is a trademark os gilette!

[isp]

I already have the mach III...great razor ;) :p:



sorry I couldn't resist

[JBELL]

Originally posted by isp
I already have the mach III...great razor ;) :p:



sorry I couldn't resist


its the best a man can get.... I got two, one silver and one red. hehe

[Phyrox]

cool.
also my mach2 has a green lcd and i like the blue ls lcd and id be losing too much cash on the mach2. for that money i could of had a better cascade than OPP :D

JBELL i love your avatar looks like that fat@$$ is having a stroke or something...guess he didnt get his cookies

[TheDude]

Originally posted by Phyrox
cool.
also my mach2 has a green lcd and i like the blue ls lcd and id be losing too much cash on the mach2. for that money i could of had a better cascade than OPP :D

JBELL i love your avatar looks like that fat@$$ is having a stroke or something...guess he didnt get his cookies

He?!! He?!!.....that's NOT a he! Anyone can see that's a HOT chick
Well....JBell thinks so and that's what counts. He likes them young and chubby and full of energy! :D

[Phyrox]

The Dude are you going to be giving up any of the mk1/2's in your "collection" for a LS? :D

[TheDude]

Originally posted by Phyrox
The Dude are you going to be giving up any of the mk1/2's in your "collection" for a LS? :D

No, I don't need another PC right now so I'll be sticking with what I have. My 1st Phasechange rig was an original Vapochill that I ran 24/7 for about a year, then I gutted it and used it to cool my video card for a while, ended up trading it for a P4 mobo & cpu.;)

[Phyrox]

Do you think this will really allow for a much bigger headroom. Personally I doubt it. Sure there are some improvements over then mach1/mach2 but I doubt it will give anyone more than 50~100mhz oc tops. Generally phasechange will get a 3.2C to 4.1~4.2ghz and if you want to go beyond you will have to use a cascade or a very good custom build. Thats the way I really see it.

If you agree/disagree please let me know. Will really help me make a buying decision. Personalyl I dont really care what my evap temp is aslong as I can get 2.6~2.7ghz out of my 3400+. Thats all that matters to me. I care about good looks (have lianli mods), convience, ease of use, and good condensation protection. Personally I HATE hcc compound. However I love the look out of that big @$$ round bakerblock copy evap comming out at the end of that hose. Looks very nice :)

Hetyy the dude that bakerblock mach1 that your using. Do you get colder temps from just having the baker block? Also how are you enclosing it? Do you have the stock microfreezer or did you have to get different enclosure for it. I would like to add a bakerblock to my mk2 in the future but I still want to use the mach2 mounting kit! :banana:

[TheDude]

Well.....I can boot my 3.2 into windows at 4.2.....run Sisoft benches at 4.1 and 3dmark at 4 and thats with a 404a modded MachI. Depends more on the chip than anything else. My present cooling is sufficient to achieve those kinds of speeds.

[Phyrox]

The dude can you please answer that question about the baker block enclosure in my previous post...thx :toast:

[megahurtz-oc]

well just ordered one from e powerhouse pc 898.00 w/ shipping
the site says avail mar-19. they are in michigan im in ohio. hopfully ill be playing with it monday or tuesday. got it for the gpu.

[TheDude]

Originally posted by Phyrox
The dude can you please answer that question about the baker block enclosure in my previous post...thx :toast:

Sorry, don't understand how I missed that. I really can't say how much of a difference the Baker block makes as I don't have the same rig without a baker block to compare to. I think it does make a significant difference but I can't back that up.
The Baker Block is enclosed in a custom enclosure that Bowman made. It can be taken off with 2 screws and turned around sideways if needed to fit a sideways mounted cpu on the mobo. It looks nothing like the stock kit and the stock kit cannot be used for it. Bowman employs a completely different mounting system and enclosure now. As far as I know, you cannot use the stock mounting kit with the Baker block, but Baker or Bowman would be the ones to ask about that.

[charlie]

This is really going to put the pressure on Nventiv... the LS is priced lower than a stock mach2, with full Lian Li skin and a real evap...
Nventiv has been getting a premium for their Mach's for a while. BTW, anyone seen the slick NEW Vapochill CPU mount kits? the molded black plastic with the thumb screws....nice.

C

[isp]

Yup C, IMO the Lightspeed has taken the lead if you want to go the whole nine yards...but the machII barebone is also nice if you don't need any frills...

Nventiv will fire back though with something at Cebit... all I can say is... change is good :toast:

[Phyrox]

charlie i agree with someone who will remain <censored> that the vapo insulation will be 100% effective against condensation. all their doing is using foam and hcc compound but sooner or later condensation will develop. air is still going in and out. nventiv on the other hand has great protection with their sealstring. all gaos are sealed off if you apply the SS right and no air can enter and that way you wont have any condensation. also i do not feel like covering a $750 cpu with hcc compound. looks like my hardware has been ejacul****. i sell my gear after im done with it and i doubt people would want to buy something like that. the vapochill ls does put nventiv on the run for its money though. the "stock" LS = modded prommy (addition of lianli kit, lcd(mach2 only), baker block (optional ofcourse), and a gas exchange all for a lower price. however nventiv can still win. you can get a mach1 for $490 shipped and charge it with r404a/r507/r502 for $200~220 and it will come out cheaper than the ls and will get you slightly lower temps and cleaner insulation.

charlie whats so bad about nventivs evap? :confused: lets not forget that if you regas a mk1/mk2 it will be oon par with a LS or out perform it. :stick: Plus if you mod a mach1 with a bakerblock and recharge it with r507 all I can say it will have the LS running for the hills.

not trying to be a fanboy or anything. just naming facts. i still believe that custom builds are the best. nventiv and asetek is holding out on us. i seen/know their 5year plan and what their relasing then can be relased now. they dont think we dont need anything colder...hell yes we do. so what if cpus will be hotter then than they are now. we can still use colder temps for a bigger oc headroom. people are using cascades now for -80C load so they can get the absolute maxium out of their hardware. imagine everyone who got a prommy would spend the $1200 on a cascade. so it would be ugly but you would see a lot of people getting 3+ghz with fx-51 and over 4.5ghz with the 3.2C and close to 5ghz with the 3.4C :stick:

[Ragnarok]

i still believe that custom builds are the best

amen...

[Phyrox]

Originally posted by megahurtz-oc
well just ordered one from e powerhouse pc 898.00 w/ shipping
the site says avail mar-19. they are in michigan im in ohio. hopfully ill be playing with it monday or tuesday. got it for the gpu.

im glad that people are actually buying these and not sitting back :toast:

[mdzcpa]

Originally posted by Phyrox
im glad that people are actually buying these and not sitting back :toast:

why...do you work for asetek?

[Phyrox]

Originally posted by mdzcpa
why...do you work for asetek?

heck no your kidding me right :stick: my goals are actually much higher being an asetek employee, amd employee, intel employee, ect.

btw mike if i worked for asetek why would i be a mach2 owner :stick:
im going medical :) after i finish H.S. > college > med school :toast:

im just glad that people are being pioneers, taking chances, and not waiting for bowman. people should be independent and now rely on a phase change expert to rate a product before they buy it. bowman, captaincascade, gary, chilly1, baker and other really have a sour view on these phase change systems because they can do much better and so can asetek and nventiv and they can see that their holding out on us.

asetek and nventiv should really release some of the products from their 5yr plan right now instead of making us wait. we need good cooling now. :stick:

p.s. mike you really gotta update your lan home page with your latest project (3.2EE :slobber: )

[mdzcpa]

Originally posted by Phyrox
im just glad that people are being pioneers, taking chances,

Fair enough:)

BTW, I know my home page has dinosuar $hit on it....I need to get around to the update soon before I go AMD FX.:D

[charlie]

Originally posted by Phyrox
charlie i agree with someone who will remain <censored> that the vapo insulation will be 100% effective against condensation. all their doing is using foam and hcc compound but sooner or later condensation will develop. air is still going in and out. nventiv on the other hand has great protection with their sealstring. all gaos are sealed off if you apply the SS right and no air can enter and that way you wont have any condensation. also i do not feel like covering a $750 cpu with hcc compound. looks like my hardware has been ejacul****. i sell my gear after im done with it and i doubt people would want to buy something like that. the vapochill ls does put nventiv on the run for its money though. the "stock" LS = modded prommy (addition of lianli kit, lcd(mach2 only), baker block (optional ofcourse), and a gas exchange all for a lower price. however nventiv can still win. you can get a mach1 for $490 shipped and charge it with r404a/r507/r502 for $200~220 and it will come out cheaper than the ls and will get you slightly lower temps and cleaner insulation.

charlie whats so bad about nventivs evap? :confused: lets not forget that if you regas a mk1/mk2 it will be oon par with a LS or out perform it. :stick: Plus if you mod a mach1 with a bakerblock and recharge it with r507 all I can say it will have the LS running for the hills.

not trying to be a fanboy or anything. just naming facts. i still believe that custom builds are the best. nventiv and asetek is holding out on us. i seen/know their 5year plan and what their relasing then can be relased now. they dont think we dont need anything colder...hell yes we do. so what if cpus will be hotter then than they are now. we can still use colder temps for a bigger oc headroom. people are using cascades now for -80C load so they can get the absolute maxium out of their hardware. imagine everyone who got a prommy would spend the $1200 on a cascade. so it would be ugly but you would see a lot of people getting 3+ghz with fx-51 and over 4.5ghz with the 3.2C and close to 5ghz with the 3.4C :stick:

That all depends :rolleyes:
The Nventiv evap looks like it was made in highschool metal shop (sorry NV guys) for proof just look at Baker's little jewels. And WILL a Mach I charged with r507 be colder than the LS?? Dunno'.
Someone has to compare the compressor and configuration of the LS to the Mach1. I bet Bowman/Chilly/Herefishy/Cap'n and the rest could fine tune a LS with different cap tube, etc and get a few more degrees out of it too. If the LS has a greater compressor to begin with compared to M1/2 then Nventiv is done :owned: until they come back with something new.

Bottom line guys... we're ALL winners. One year from now r507 LS/Mach2 will be $500 and one of these companies will release a micro-mini cascade with dual compressors tucked inside of a slightly enlarged bottom case that pulls -100C for $899!!!!!

[OPPAINTER]

Originally posted by charlie


Bottom line guys... we're ALL winners. One year from now r507 LS/Mach2 will be $500 and one of these companies will release a micro-mini cascade with dual compressors tucked inside of a slightly enlarged bottom case that pulls -100C for $899!!!!!

Yea Charlie, that would be nice:D
I say they should just go right to cascade now.

Much easier said then done though:D

OPP

[chilly1]

I thingk an auto cascade would be the cheap route....

[OPPAINTER]

chilly1,

Arn't you planing on coming out with mini cascades for the masses ?

I think as far as cascades it will take someone like Chilly or CC to introduce them to the public way before asetek or nVentiv.
See, our guys have to make them first so the other companies can use the ideas and improve them :D LOL

OPP

[Maxvla]

hmmm ls/mach2 for 500 bucks.. i might even go for that :)

/me presses the +1year button on his time machine

[chilly1]

Originally posted by OPPAINTER
chilly1,

Arn't you planing on coming out with mini cascades for the masses ?

I think as far as cascades it will take someone like Chilly or CC to introduce them to the public way before asetek or nVentiv.
See, our guys have to make them first so the other companies can use the ideas and improve them :D LOL

OPP
I am researching a compressor that was put forth by an appliance manafacturer a few years back it was 200% more effecient and had 1 moving part. If I can find this compressor commercially available a 50lb dual head cascade at 200 and 150W would be a reality....

[TheDude]

See, our guys have to make them first so the other companies can use the ideas and improve them LOL
OPP


Ain't that the truth!;)

[wijdeveld]

Hmm cascade, thought about that for a 'colder then room temperature ' water setup (dual water loop) but is seems a nice way to get into the low -80 oC vapor range. Still curious what the heat capacity of the second stage coolant is and what the molecular density inside the evaporation block is.

I might stick around here for a while and see what I can think of. Since I've got a pure N2 gas net in my lab I was thinking about a cascade with a R404a compressor to help cool down the N2 gas and a BIG compressor to finish the job of condensating the N2 to a liquid. That way, the second (coldest) loop doesn't have to be closed. Obvious I still have to check the energy balance of this setup, it's just a thought. Anyone tried this in here?

[macci]

wijdeveld, might be a good idea to check out the Vaporphase section for cascade tips and tricks.
I have a feeling that one R404 loop ain't going to get you very far w/ N2..

N2:
Critical point

* Critical temperature : -147 °C
* Critical pressure : 33.999 bar
* Critical density : 314.03 kg/m3

[wijdeveld]

Thanks, I was planning to :)
But it depends on the second compressor :D. I'm in the luxurious position that I’ve already a molecule sieve installed on my 6 bar dried-air pressure net (non-cryogenic air separation). So, it’s just about the last step, cooling down the N2 before applying enough pressure (>34 bar) and heat exchange surface to get it liquid.

The problem is the evaporation behavior of N2, since the (mostly Janapanse) LN experiments with a cup of liquid N2 are awfull with regard to heat exchange behavior: liquid N2 takes too long to evaporate when put directly on the CPU die.

But as you said, I'll do some catch-up reading to do, especially on the Bowman & Beakers evaporation design :p:

[Gary Lloyd]

See, our guys have to make them first so the other companies can use the ideas and improve them LOL


What these companies fail to understand is that someone who has an idea usually has multiple ideas. Asetek should be contracting with Baker to manufacture blocks, even if they improved his design. You never know when he might have an even better idea, and hand it over to nVentiv.

[paul007]

well basic idea is get the gas in and out of the evap as fast as possible but at the same time cover as much surface area and such correct??

didn't someone here talk about using a pump to help get the gas in and out faster into the evap ;)

[Gary Lloyd]

There is a lot more to it than that.

[zakelwe]

Originally posted by wijdeveld
. I'm in the luxurious position that I’ve already a molecule sieve installed on my 6 bar dried-air pressure net (non-cryogenic air separation).

What, only one ?

:rolleyes: :D :D

I love these phase change threads, they are so interesting as they always boil ( or rather don't ) down to

Some statements
Some counterstatements
Some politics
Some incomprehensible physics that gets shot down immediately in the very next post by another expert
My diiick: is colder than your diiick
Some statements
Some counterstatements
Some politics
Some incomprehensible physics that gets shot down immediately in the very next post by another expert
My diiick: is colder than your diiick ........


ad infinitum


As an avid reader I have to say they are the most enjoyable and interesting threads on the entire forum.

Regards

Andy

[Phyrox]

Funny how we went from the vapochill ls to cascades. Well someday it will be a reality but for now we have to be patient. One thing that I am sure of Is that the masses on this forums don’t need cascades. Heck they do not even need anything better than a mach1/mach2 this year (maybe when cpus get hotter). A mach1/2/vapoxe/ls will all leave you on the same boat. The oc difference should be 50~200mhz tops. Now selling your cooling system which you got a few weeks/months ago for a 50~200mhz is STUPID.

A vapochill LS wont have a better chance of taking someone to the first page of the orb than a mk2 does. To get there is requires mondo cooling like a cascade or a “super” prom (compressor and condenser change). I doubt anyone needs anything colder than a mk1 unless your going for #1 on orb. Sure the vapo ls/mach2 is less hassle free than the mk1 and it makes sense upgrading from a mk1 to a ls but going for a mk2 to ls is almost pointless. People probably think that they will be “cool” or “godly” or “in” or whatever you want to call it if they get a ls but guess what no one really cares. A ls wont get you on top. Why upgrade your gaming rigs mk2 cooling to ls cooling? Makes no sense. An extra 200mhz is useless. Your eye wont detect the change in fps and windows wont feel any faster. Those who are going for the top will never use a LS because its insufficient. A cascade will do the job though. Notice that many mach2 owners (especially ones who are using modded ones) have the money to buy a cascade. But they don’t. That tells me that either a cascade is too messy for them or their not going for any world records. Than why in gods name sell a mach2 to upgrade for a LS???

What it all comes down to is your hardware and your skill. Most 3.2Cs will do 4ghz with phasechange. Now does it matter if a vapochill pe will get you 3.9 or if a mach2 will get you 4.1.. NO IT DOES NOT. Ted has a 3.2c that will do 4.2ghz on a vapo and 4ghz on air I think. It’s the chip that matters. In stead of spending crazy money on cooling I think people should keep their current phase change cooling system so they don’t loose money and if their pockets are heavy spend money on a better videocard, lianli mod instead of using ugly stock case and sides, nice speakers, some more ram. The good useful things. I see people buying a $150 videocard but are getting a mach2. That is REALLY stupid. Skill matters too. By upgrading to better cooling it does not guarantee you anything at all. I saw like 2 people using a mach2 on cpu and a vapochill xe on the gpu…And their 3dmark 01 score is 24k!?!?!?!?!? See what I mean. A little better cooling proves nothing. If you have great cooling but crappy results people would think your dumb.

Just my $.02

[texuspete00]

Most of the people I see upgrading from great cooling to greater seem to have alot of expensive gear and not cheap video cards. They have the money and they... uh... support the economy. They can do what they want.

Thats my two pennies, this is even though I think the 200MHz you estimate for mach I to LS is very optimistic in a lot of cases. Honestly though, could you not get away with spending less money on computer hardware? I have a mobile XP on the way and I'm not going for number one on the orb nor will it do much for me. New toy.

Consider paragraphs because it gets hard to keep track of which line to go skip on down to as you're reading. My brain split! Not trying to be a jerk just honest.

[Phyrox]

Well 200mhz at the most. But I bet it will be like 50~100mhz. Im not saying they cant or telling them not to. Its just really pointless. I too have plenty of money and spend much more $ on hardware than most people here do but I make smart buying decisions.

Argh i tried to read what i wrote and it made me dizzy

[goodhead]

maybe its not out of stupidity but out of trying to help someone out, if u got something u dont want sell it cheaper so someone else can tade advantage of it if that in turn helps me buy something i want then its win win situation, next guy get a mach2 for hundress less i get something new sounds good to me, i have even gave away my old dangerden setup and my first koolance case to guys at work for free(well i got lunch for a week on the on the dangerden :D) so my buddies can oc too

[texuspete00]

lol... nice. Yeah, I have to whip up a nice little tbred B system for my pops with some stuff lying around. I feel guilty looking at his little :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: box when I go over.

[Phyrox]

WELL GUYS THOSE WHO BOUGHT ONE -> CONGRDULATIONS HOW DOES IT FEEL TO TEST NEW HARDWARE :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Fewture]

Originally posted by Phyrox
What it all comes down to is your hardware and your skill. Most 3.2Cs will do 4ghz with phasechange. Now does it matter if a vapochill pe will get you 3.9 or if a mach2 will get you 4.1.. NO IT DOES NOT. Ted has a 3.2c that will do 4.2ghz on a vapo and 4ghz on air I think. It’s the chip that matters. In stead of spending crazy money on cooling I think people should keep their current phase change cooling system so they don’t loose money and if their pockets are heavy spend money on a better videocard, lianli mod instead of using ugly stock case and sides, nice speakers, some more ram. The good useful things. I see people buying a $150 videocard but are getting a mach2. That is REALLY stupid. Skill matters too. By upgrading to better cooling it does not guarantee you anything at all. I saw like 2 people using a mach2 on cpu and a vapochill xe on the gpu…And their 3dmark 01 score is 24k!?!?!?!?!? See what I mean. A little better cooling proves nothing. If you have great cooling but crappy results people would think your dumb.

Just my $.02
If you can't get good results with PC-cooling you are either very stupid or you have sh*tty hardware. Overclocking is very simple and straightforeward. I don't really believe in skills. It's all about the effort and the time you putt in. The more you read and think the more you will get out of the hardware. Unless offcourse you're stuck with a bad cpu or vidcard or something.

A cpu for instance will do a certain amount of Mhz. In who's hands it is doesn't matter. Analysing your system in order to tweak the right parameter is just common sense imo. Tweakers who can't do that are just not putting enough effort in. I mean..the info is all over the net. I got it that way so why shouldn't someone else? ;) Has nothing to do with skills.

[Phyrox]

Originally posted by OPPAINTER
Yea Charlie, that would be nice:D
I say they should just go right to cascade now.

Much easier said then done though:D

OPP

Well you really have to take a look in the nventiv/asetek labs :)

Much easier done by asetek because they are not iso certified and they will be the ones comming out with one before nventiv does. Takes many months to get something approved. However I rather get a certified product than an non certified one. Also the product that comes out last is usually better than what came out before it.

Just like buying a pc...Someone buys a pc now and his friend will buy one a few months later. The riend will get something better or atleast cheaper :toast:

[Phyrox]

Originally posted by Fewture
If you can't get good results with PC-cooling you are either very stupid or you have sh*tty hardware. Overclocking is very simple and straightforeward. I don't really believe in skills. It's all about the effort and the time you putt in. The more you read and think the more you will get out of the hardware. Unless offcourse you're stuck with a bad cpu or vidcard or something.

A cpu for instance will do a certain amount of Mhz. In who's hands it is doesn't matter. Analysing your system in order to tweak the right parameter is just common sense imo. Tweakers who can't do that are just not putting enough effort in. I mean..the info is all over the net. I got it that way so why shouldn't someone else? ;) Has nothing to do with skills.

Well skills do matter too. The more you do it the better you are at it. Lets take the A64 for example. Some people just do a sucide run and wind up with bad results. For example they just get the unit and right away they start pumping the fsb/. FOr example they have mach2 cooling and right away they set 250fsb and they cant go much higher than that and their content.

Other on the other hand (the ones with skill) they find out how far each component can go. For example they relax ram timings, redude ram speed to get max cpu clock, lower the multi meanwhile others just increase vcore and fsb like crazy.

im not going to mention any names at all

there were a few guys using P4 3.2EE's

they had a max3/p4c800-e, good ram, r9800xt and a mach2 and a xe for cpu/gpu cooling. and they got a crappy 24~25k score on 3dmark. i can easily get that with a fx-51 on 100% air. quad and stormpc got similarfx-51 results on air. and we have people using superior cooling and getting 24k on vapor phase change :stick: :confused:

[goodhead]

WELL GUYS THOSE WHO BOUGHT ONE -> CONGRDULATIONS HOW DOES IT FEEL TO TEST NEW HARDWARE

my mach 2 was fun :D, my new vtech engine was heavy (shipped from japan :mad: , and my hew girl is hot :slobber:
all good to me

[OPPAINTER]

Originally posted by Phyrox
Well you really have to take a look in the nventiv/asetek labs :)



Well I can tell you this, the nventiv/asetek labs don't stand a chance with cascade cooling compared to Captaincascades lab. Los Angeles Cascade has nothing but -80c/-90c Cascade refideration units running 24/7 all over the warehouse and all the techs do is work on these rigs.

Now thats cascade wisdom:)

OPP

[Phyrox]

Originally posted by OPPAINTER
Well I can tell you this, the nventiv/asetek labs don't stand a chance with cascade cooling compared to Captaincascades lab. Los Angeles Cascade has nothing but -80c/-90c Cascade refideration units running 24/7 all over the warehouse and all the techs do is work on these rigs.

Now thats cascade wisdom:)

OPP

yup now if these guys had more resources they would kick the **** out of asetek/nventiv and take over the market. many guys here paid over 1500 for their mach2's including mods. if someone can release a micro cascade witrh good mounting and insulation they would take all of the customers. Im looking foward to buying one of CC's dual evaps unit as soon as its out. :toast:

OPP i seen some pics of your cascade. :slobber:

was browsing aseteks forums

http://forum.vapochill.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5867

now are they trying to make a army of followers against nventiv :(

[Umgawa]

Phyrox you state that its not going be that much better than a mach2. I agree you might acheive a slightly higher overclock but I think your missing the point.

Its
1: Cheaper
2: 507 and better compressor
3: Baker head
4: Better real life temps
5: Fits both Amd and Intel
6: Much better heaters for no condensation
7: No need to by lian li mod
8: Comes with blue lcd from factory.

Now to the average Phase change user these are all winners and if you took a mach2 and did the mods to make it close to a LS you would spend double your money.


I keep hearing remarks about the ISO certification and I for one dont care if they are not certified. If they make a great product that works and at a better price then im buying one. There are alot of dumbasses in this world running around messing up stuff and most are certified. Ceritification doesnt mean jack about the quality of work someone does.

I have had a mach 1 and was pleased but speaking for an avergage phase change user the LS looks great and im pretty sure it will perform very good and when you buy its turn key with all the options you need.:toast:

[chilly1]

According to the charts published the ls(404A) is slightly better in performance than the Mach II(134A) I will wait to see the results up against a modded mach I, I think it will be a slight underdog in some cases and in others slightly better.

[Umgawa]

Im pretty sure Asetek has said in there forums its 507. Even if it is 404 which is not that big of a temp change between the 2(507 and 404). http://www.asetek.com/main/page.asp?sideid=465

If 404 is not that much of a difference than 134 then why is everyone modding to 404 are 507?

For all fairness you guys shouldnt compare it to a modded anything for the reason nventiv doenst make 1 and I bet the majority of people who by phase change doesnt mod theres. Dont get me wrong I want to see the comparision but in reality a madded mach 1 doesnt have a 404 compressor and that alone is 1 drawback and a modded mach1 with 404 are 507 and lian li bottom will still be about the same price as Ls and the Ls has a lcd and works with all mother boards. A modded mach1 doesnt come close to the value of a LS for the average phase change user.(Consider these are my opinions by looking at what there offering on paper and if real world performance sucks then of course that would change everything but theres no reason with 507 and a baker block that it shouldnt perform good for the price)

In all fairness it should be Run what you Brung. Its a debate over 2 companys products not what people can hotrod them too and make them better than the other(Thats a whole different debate). Now if nventiv will make a 507 mach system I would judge that as a fair comparison.

I believe most of you are missing the point that the average phase changer will buy the best for his money and doesnt want to mod it if he dont have too.

I have a Question for the expert refrigeration guys.

By looking at the specs on a stock LS is it better are worse than a stock mach1 are mach2?

[Phyrox]

Originally posted by Umgawa
Phyrox you state that its not going be that much better than a mach2. I agree you might acheive a slightly higher overclock but I think your missing the point.

Its
1: Cheaper
2: 507 and better compressor
3: Baker head
4: Better real life temps
5: Fits both Amd and Intel
6: Much better heaters for no condensation
7: No need to by lian li mod
8: Comes with blue lcd from factory.

Now to the average Phase change user these are all winners and if you took a mach2 and did the mods to make it close to a LS you would spend double your money.

I have made all of those points many pages before. I am not bashing the LS. I did note all of the points you made before you came here and I did give asetek the credit.

I am saying for those of us who are mach1 and mach2 owners its not worth upgrading....Thats all i am saying. You can love the LS and asetek all you want. No one is stopping them,. But when nventiv comes out with their new unit I bet you will be stunned. Do you really think someone is going to standbye and wtach while someone else is punching them in the face. I dont think so.

By going the LS you save lots of money and get SLIGHTLY better performance....LS is a good bang for the buck.


I keep hearing remarks about the ISO certification and I for one dont care if they are not certified. If they make a great product that works and at a better price then im buying one. There are alot of dumbasses in this world running around messing up stuff and most are certified. Ceritification doesnt mean jack about the quality of work someone does.

I have had a mach 1 and was pleased but speaking for an avergage phase change user the LS looks great and im pretty sure it will perform very good and when you buy its turn key with all the options you need.:toast:


Also im not argueing about the average phase change user. screw the average phase change user. im basically giving my own thoughts on this. the average phase change user doesnt have loads of $$$$$$$ to kill on things like this. Since I already bought a mk2 I will spend as $$ as it takes to keep it updated. Heck I already got the lianli mod now Im going to get a blue lcd and regas it. Or I can just add some more cahs and have it super modded and it will do -80C load. That would SLAUGHTER the LS. I know not everyone has the $ to do these things but I do so I can take a big crap on the LS for all I care.

[Fewture]

Originally posted by Phyrox
Well skills do matter too. The more you do it the better you are at it. Lets take the A64 for example. Some people just do a sucide run and wind up with bad results. For example they just get the unit and right away they start pumping the fsb/. FOr example they have mach2 cooling and right away they set 250fsb and they cant go much higher than that and their content.

Other on the other hand (the ones with skill) they find out how far each component can go. For example they relax ram timings, redude ram speed to get max cpu clock, lower the multi meanwhile others just increase vcore and fsb like crazy.

im not going to mention any names at all

there were a few guys using P4 3.2EE's

they had a max3/p4c800-e, good ram, r9800xt and a mach2 and a xe for cpu/gpu cooling. and they got a crappy 24~25k score on 3dmark. i can easily get that with a fx-51 on 100% air. quad and stormpc got similarfx-51 results on air. and we have people using superior cooling and getting 24k on vapor phase change :stick: :confused:

I agree.. the only thing is I call "the ones with skill" as you say it, just basics man. I don't see that as skill, but just basic tweaking :) Skill to me is someone like Hipro5 with his insane mods.. All the other stuff is just bios settings imo ;)

Anyway.. There is 2 camps now.. nVentiv boys and Asetek boys :D I don't understand that. What good will come if nVentiv stayed by itself? Ok, the LS is a mach2 rip-off but it's good for us overclockers. Better products will come of it I hope :)

On the asetek forum there is an anti XS feeling I think.. Looks really stupid to me :confused: I'm kinda happy there's finally some competition for the prommy. Why should the users of the products be in competition?? It's all about the cold cpu..who cares how it's being cooled or by what brand?!?! As long as it's cold it's good :toast:

[Phyrox]

Originally posted by Fewture
I agree.. the only thing is I call "the ones with skill" as you say it, just basics man. I don't see that as skill, but just basic tweaking :) Skill to me is someone like Hipro5 with his insane mods.. All the other stuff is just bios settings imo ;)

Anyway.. There is 2 camps now.. nVentiv boys and Asetek boys :D I don't understand that. What good will come if nVentiv stayed by itself? Ok, the LS is a mach2 rip-off but it's good for us overclockers. Better products will come of it I hope :)

On the asetek forum there is an anti XS feeling I think.. Looks really stupid to me :confused: I'm kinda happy there's finally some competition for the prommy. Why should the users of the products be in competition?? It's all about the cold cpu..who cares how it's being cooled or by what brand?!?! As long as it's cold it's good :toast:

yup i agree :) just unpacked my mk2 and did lianli mod to it...i was in awe...unit is damn sexy...now i really want to take a crap on the ls!~

[isp]

Originally posted by Phyrox
yup i agree :) just unpacked my mk2 and did lianli mod to it...i was in awe...unit is damn sexy...now i really want to take a crap on the ls!~

You're crazy man... :hehe:

[oc-rookie]

Originally posted by Phyrox
Also im not argueing about the average phase change user. screw the average phase change user.

Is this your first phase change system?

[megahurtz-oc]

wow people seem to be split on this whole deal. i think the ls sounds good because of the fact that u can buy in ready to go with r507 and the price is very good for a plug and play type setup. the features that it has (according to frozen cpu) is just down right awsome. i could care less if it was made and sold by hitler himself.....its the bang for the buck i care about. besides like other guys in here are saying it will promote good competition between the makers of these products, end result we all get better products for less money.

[zabomb4163]

Originally posted by Fewture
Skill to me is someone like Hipro5 with his insane mods..

-no kidding. have you seen the site he made on the mods he made to his video card and motherboard? :banana: anyone that can invent that many mods without killing boards has serious skill.

[kommando]

I reckon the LS is a good budget system that performs well. I dont' care about facts n' :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: its a good unit :)

[isp]

yes it is indeed a budget system :stick:

:p:

[QuadDamage]

yep it's a budget cooling system:D

[Jeff]

I was going to get a used SLK-900 from my buddy for $20... but hell... since the LS is a budget system, I might as well just go for that instead.

[kommando]

Hell it is a budget system, phase change system that is you *******. Sorry but i really had to say that :D

Edit:No you didn't....unless you're looking for a vacation for Flaming?....TheDude

[kommando]

Ehehhe sorry for that outburst, was a bit pissed off at the time. I think i wordered my post wrongley. I was intented to say its a good system for its price and i'd buy it for sure if i had the money :)

[Tomsawyer]

Somone make a system that has TWO cooling heads, one for your cpu and the other for your gpu.

It must be neat and compact so that it can fit under your favorite tower, have all the bells and whistles and lcds, temps must be -50C yada yada, and oh yea it must not cost more than 500 bucks us................. :smileysex



In the end competition is good for all, lower prices and better systems.

I think I will hang on to my mach 1 for a while, being a newbie to phase cooling and a working dad cost will allways be a major factor unless I win the lotto, then I will pay Bowman to fly down and build a nuclear cooler hehehheh

[texuspete00]

You were probably being sarcastic but it would be nice if we could have that (albeit without the $500 limit ;) ) in a phase change. If a dual evap could fit in to something like those lian li kits (even if taller) it would command a super premium. I think if it needed to be done, people would give up -50 as well. I want a dual :( I'll "settle" for -30C for my CPU and GPU. :D

[chilly1]

Originally posted by Tomsawyer
Somone make a system that has TWO cooling heads, one for your cpu and the other for your gpu.

It must be neat and compact so that it can fit under your favorite tower, have all the bells and whistles and lcds, temps must be -50C yada yada, and oh yea it must not cost more than 500 bucks us................. :smileysex



In the end competition is good for all, lower prices and better systems.

I think I will hang on to my mach 1 for a while, being a newbie to phase cooling and a working dad cost will allways be a major factor unless I win the lotto, then I will pay Bowman to fly down and build a nuclear cooler hehehheh

Maybe triple that... it's them bells and whistles that'll kill ya

[phobos]

You can always extend one evaporator hose and put 2 prom's or vapos under your PC :D :D

[Tomsawyer]

Sooner or later a big firm or person with some extra money is going to make a dual head system and off it will go. As the market has shown over the years the more people push the bleeding edge the more formerly exotic items become mainstream.

air to water to phase to cascade to dry ice to nitrogen to............

If company A wants to copy company B thereby creating a series of new toys or ideas then so be it.

bring it on, i am either along for the ride or helping invent something new and having fun.

[EmineM]

Wait untill Wednesday .. Cebit will open then... I hope ;) nventiv will bring something new

[Master_G]

Originally posted by Fewture
Anyway.. There is 2 camps now.. nVentiv boys and Asetek boys :D I don't understand that. What good will come if nVentiv stayed by itself? Ok, the LS is a mach2 rip-off but it's good for us overclockers. Better products will come of it I hope :)

On the asetek forum there is an anti XS feeling I think.. Looks really stupid to me :confused:

I think that there only appears to be two camps, because in a discussion on a topic, who shouts the loudest? It the fanboys. I think most of us on here would just choose the cheapest one that gives the best cooling regardless of the company.
As for the anti XS feeling on the Asetek forums, i dont feel that there is one generally (anything that could be construed as such is probably posted by Asetek and is consigned to the threads concerning the temp issues and the waterblock copyright issues, which maybe the only threads people from here going to the Asetek forums look at, but it doesnt provide a fair representation of the forums). I post on the Asetek forums, and i always recommend XS to people who need more information, its the best place to go looking for information concerning any matter of computing IMO.
I think the difference in custom units and commerical units is that custom units are a labour of love. There are many people on here who devote a lot of their time and effort because they want to produce better temps with their own skill. Commercial units on the other hand are build down to a base level where they can be produced relatively cheaply and efficiently, and this means cutting corners in the search for perfect tweaking of a phase change system. Thats just the nature of the hobbyist vrs the commercial manufacturer IMO.

G

[captaincascade]

Originally posted by OPPAINTER
Well I can tell you this, the nventiv/asetek labs don't stand a chance with cascade cooling compared to Captaincascades lab. Los Angeles Cascade has nothing but -80c/-90c Cascade refideration units running 24/7 all over the warehouse and all the techs do is work on these rigs.

Now thats cascade wisdom:)

OPP


http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=230638

this is our main work area. 95% of those are revco -85c freezers we are repairing or rebuilding. this is what our shop looks like at any givin time, with freezers constantly going in and out. baker took this picture. thats me waving, lol.

[captaincascade]

here one row of many rows in our fleet of rental freezers. for our customers to use while there freezer is down..

Lol, its not like you can just shove tissue samples in the sink..

[isp]

Never a dull moment huh? :p:

Impressive display :D

[Phyrox]

Originally posted by oc-rookie
Is this your first phase change system?

no it is not

ive had a vapochill pe, mach1, and now a mach2.

btw guys nventiv released the Mach II ST...its basically a mach2 with a new chip controller w/ sopme saftey features and it is supposed to be more affordable. ls is still colder but this is a battle for the lowest price :stick:

[Goyo]

Well, I don't matter that the Vapochill LS is a clone of the Prommy MachII. For me the important thing is their performance and price. If is better than the XE, I'll buy it.

The problem in my case, is the shipment. These Vapor Phase Units are very delicate, and the shipment services very irresponsible in my country. I hope that it has a very good packing.

I'll wait the reviews to see their package, then I'll run the risk.

Greetings.

[charlie]

The shipment services in our country are very irresponsible too ;)
USPS, UPS and FEDEX are all notorious as well...
I know what you mean though, they should pack these things like the Mars Lunar Rover in a giant rubber ball...lol

C

[Tomsawyer]

If you can not build a cascade but you got a few bucks, ok more than a few, take cpt cascade up on his sales, if not for my son i would put one in my house and then lets see if my crank amd xp2100 whines anymore lol

[Goyo]

Originally posted by charlie
I know what you mean though, they should pack these things like the Mars Lunar Rover in a giant rubber ball...lol


LoL http://www.ocmexico.com/uploads/smiles-rofl.gif you're right charlie http://www.ocmexico.com/uploads/smil3f73852bf1b61.gif

Greetings :D.

[captaincascade]

I dont think i would be comfortable useing a cascade system on my computer, someone built that really didnt "know" what they were doing. heck i wouldnt be comfortable with a single stage setup from someone unexpierienced, even if that person was myself. Im not just trying to sell my stuff or anything, believe me, im not hurting for buisiness;-) Its just that i dont see any of you trying to make your own ram, mobos, cpus, or gpus. so what makes more complicated refrigeration so different?

geez i gotta relax

[TheDude]

Stupid?.....no.....but somewhat less than charming.:D:stick:

[Stang_Man]

Originally posted by charlie
The shipment services in our country are very irresponsible too ;)
USPS, UPS and FEDEX are all notorious as well...
I know what you mean though, they should pack these things like the Mars Lunar Rover in a giant rubber ball...lol

C

they should put some peanuts on the inside or something... cause that's where the damage happens, and just have you open up and remove it all when you're ready to use.

[captaincascade]

Originally posted by TheDude
Stupid?.....no.....but somewhat less than charming.:D:stick:

i know i know, if i said it to you it wouldnt have come across that way,.. ugh sorry guys no rudeness intended. i have a hard time putting my thoughts down on paper without sounding like an ass or a moron. one of the 2.


are there classes on comunication?

[Hobocrow]

Originally posted by captaincascade
i know i know, if i said it to you it wouldnt have come across that way,.. ugh sorry guys no rudeness intended. i have a hard time putting my thoughts down on paper without sounding like an ass or a moron. one of the 2.


are there classes on comunication?

Hey Skipper ( I know that Herefishy calls you that , but, I like it ) So, hey Skipper, you don't need any additional communication skills, I understood you completely ... augh oooo, maybe I'm 1 .. 2! :D

[TheDude]

Me too.....you know I was bustin your balls cappy:D

[Anarki]

captaincascade do you use daikin compressors? If you do I really hate you because I have to lift those heavy b******s around in my work all the time :p:

I really cant wait for the results of this LS, it will also be interesting to see if the temps are accurate!

[JBELL]

Originally posted by Anarki
captaincascade do you use daikin compressors? If you do I really hate you because I have to lift those heavy b******s around in my work all the time :p:

I really cant wait for the results of this LS, it will also be interesting to see if the temps are accurate!


...they better be accurate

[chilly1]

Originally posted by JBELL
...they better be accurate
Speaking of accurate temps I am getting a program ldr for the Carol controller,,, I also am going to try and change the calibration at temperature. These temp probes are non linear...

[captaincascade]

what are daikin compressors?

i didnt mean to screw this thread lol im done

[Tomsawyer]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/03/15/distant.object/index.html


Hey captain, you should name your next product Sedna in honor of this. That way people can relate your cold products to the coldest object so far found in our system

-400F or -240C BRRRRRRR thats colder than my ex!!!!!!!!!

[paul007]

Who here doubts the compressor in the vapo LS over the one in the prommy when both units are r404/r507 filled as a fair comprarison??

Ive heard now alot of feedback with people that know there stuff showing and stating that the r134a units when gased right are still going to get the edge over the r404 compressor's..

[Master_G]

Well this appears to be what Asetek is going to be displaying at Cebit (aside from a 4GHz waterchill rig) on the LS side:
Link to the page here (http://vapochill.com/nyhederPro/visnyhed.asp?nyhedid=260&DatabaseID=1) and link to the press picture/babble here (http://vapochill.com/filarkiv/News/Events/CeBIT04/Productsheetpage1_V2.gif) .
Specs: 3.4EE, IC7MAX3, PC4300, 9800XT. Now that would cost a pretty penny to buy :eek:
Still waiting to see what Nventiv bring along to the party:)

G

[masterofpuppets]

Mach II kicks the hell out of Vapochill in my opinion. I got my Pentium 4 to 4.2GhZ with it.

[paul007]

well you can't compare those dinky bf35 and bf50 12/24v compresors that the vpaochills used before that remove 150w of heat at 0c to +5c to a 115v nf9fx that removes 200w at -25c.. Thats like tring to compare an apple to an orange..

and since no vapo LS has been dropped in to one of the big guns hands "BAKER/BOWMAN/CHILLY/CC/HEREFISHY or other" its not fair to say that a Mach II rules a vapo LS ATM

[Tomsawyer]

Put asetek and chip-con booths RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER

Hell I will fly to Europe just to watch the sparks fly lol

[bowman1964]

well i am waiting on the new unit (vapo)myself,

as nventiv has already shipped my test unit to use..:D

it now sets waiting on the unit from asetek.but i was told april was the time frame for their unit to ship.i am waiting..:slobber:

and it will be interesting to say the least....i would like to say more but i cannt right at this moment.:p:

[Master_G]

Originally posted by bowman1964
well i am waiting on the new unit (vapo)myself,

as nventiv has already shipped my test unit to use..:D

it now sets waiting on the unit from asetek.but i was told april was the time frame for their unit to ship.i am waiting..:slobber:

and it will be interesting to say the least....i would like to say more but i cannt right at this moment.:p:

Now that sounds interesting. April is too far away:(

G

PS. w00t, 100th post, into the classifieds:cool:

[TheDude]

OT

Congrats on the 100 posts Master_G. You didn't spam your way there either. You have had some good posts. :thumbsup:

[Tomsawyer]

Free t-shirt with every 100 posts, o wait no thats spam and spam is bad!

Hmmm on a serious note Bowman is getting 2 toys to compare, I think I can smell a serious unbiased review a comming and that must have both asetek and chipcon sweating seeing how phase cooling is still a small market and word of mouth can seriously torpedo a bad product :eek:

Stress test them till they squeal bowman!

[bowman1964]

Well its not like i dont have a dozen nventiv units laying around...to play on..i just needed a brand new unit that would make sure i could test the latest unit.
i didnt want to be testing one of my modded units..

i needed a untouched completley stock unit to use as a accurate test.i have the latest unit and so it should give me the most accurate compairason between the too giants....

i am sure it will suprise a few...:)

[Phyrox]

Bowman the nventiv unit you have is the Mach 2 ST right? I don’t really see a point in comparing it to a LS. We already know what the results are going to be. R134a vs R507. The ST is just a mach2 with a different chip controller and a lower price.

[paul007]

Phyrox still you think you can take any two peices of HW and just becasue one looks better on paper it is in reality??

ok, so vapochill has r507 and a Baker18 type evap question still is can it match the performance with a load or in real world situations like the mach II??

The mach II's evap. is still great anyway you look at it and also the way it uses hard urethane foam to insulate it totaly except for the evap base is something else that is an edge over the vapochill design..

untill both are fully load tested on a "optimal load source" such as what Baker18 or Bowman use lets not call anyone a winner or looser. :)

a mach II stock with r134a has been shown to hold a 2.9ghz+ a64 at 1.9v stable do you have any idea the kind of heat that is? Or a P4EE over 4.3ghz?? the Vapochill needs to prove itself first before anyone can say "LOOK IT USES R507 IT MUST BE BETTER" :)

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by Phyrox
Bowman the nventiv unit you have is the Mach 2 ST right? I don’t really see a point in comparing it to a LS. We already know what the results are going to be. R134a vs R507. The ST is just a mach2 with a different chip controller and a lower price.

sorry no prise for that anser..it isnt the ST...but thats about all i can say...:slobber:

[JBELL]

Originally posted by paul007
Phyrox still you think you can take any two peices of HW and just becasue one looks better on paper it is in reality??

ok, so vapochill has r507 and a Baker18 type evap question still is can it match the performance with a load or in real world situations like the mach II??

The mach II's evap. is still great anyway you look at it and also the way it uses hard urethane foam to insulate it totaly except for the evap base is something else that is an edge over the vapochill design..

untill both are fully load tested on a "optimal load source" such as what Baker18 or Bowman use lets not call anyone a winner or looser. :)

a mach II stock with r134a has been shown to hold a 2.9ghz+ a64 at 1.9v stable do you have any idea the kind of heat that is? Or a P4EE over 4.3ghz?? the Vapochill needs to prove itself first before anyone can say "LOOK IT USES R507 IT MUST BE BETTER" :)


great answer!

[Phyrox]

Originally posted by paul007
Phyrox still you think you can take any two peices of HW and just becasue one looks better on paper it is in reality??

ok, so vapochill has r507 and a Baker18 type evap question still is can it match the performance with a load or in real world situations like the mach II??

The mach II's evap. is still great anyway you look at it and also the way it uses hard urethane foam to insulate it totaly except for the evap base is something else that is an edge over the vapochill design..

untill both are fully load tested on a "optimal load source" such as what Baker18 or Bowman use lets not call anyone a winner or looser. :)

a mach II stock with r134a has been shown to hold a 2.9ghz+ a64 at 1.9v stable do you have any idea the kind of heat that is? Or a P4EE over 4.3ghz?? the Vapochill needs to prove itself first before anyone can say "LOOK IT USES R507 IT MUST BE BETTER" :)

yes I agree but aseteks evap is even better than nventivs. nventivs evap compared to the se/pe/xe evaps was better because it can hold and stabilize temps under load but with the improvement of aseteks evap it will do the same plus maintain better temps. my friends in denmark have already seen this unit while it was in its beta stages and it was quite good and now all revisions have been made. i know what i am talking about please do not mistake me for some newb who thinks it is colder just because of r507. thhat is obvious but there are many other factors that come to play including evap design, density of compressor, condensor size, ect. Also r404a/r507 gasses are effected by ambient temps unlike r134a so if your in CA/FL or somewhere else you might not get performance like someone is getting in NV/NY/CT ect.

also i disagree on one more thing. it DOES NOT take baker or bowman to prove this. there are many qualified individuals out there including you and me. no offence to anyone here but just because your "well known" does not exactly mean someone who is "nameless" cant make a do the same thing.

i have many opther examples of htis. someone was going for a cpu record and then some other member said well if OPP didnt get this how the he|| could you.:confused: now opp isnt god or anything (no offence to opp) but if he cant do something does not mean someone else cant. it all matters on your hardwares limits and the hw you use of course.

---

oh yeah bowman i know what you mean :) i know a little about the 2nd unit but i didnt know that was the unit nventiv was taking to cebit :D not much sense in taking the ST to cebit of course

[paul007]

Baker and Bowman are the only ones around here that have spoke out and joined forces to make and come up with a testing heat load that doesn't vary as so many that test there setups for temperatures and loads do..

I never called you new nor did I doubt your knowledge, but you are pushing this new vapochill way to much its "GOOD" yes on paper so far, but it is not all that IMO.. You say it has a stronger compressor also correct? You do know you can not for one second go by the compressors raided specifications as a "This is what the unit will do" statement at all as I have seem 1/2hp+ LBT r404 compressors get left by the what 1/5-1/6hp danfoss nf9fx r134a unit..

SO again no disrespect to you, but remember as of right now all this is just speculation and opinions correct?? As we have yet to have "Real World" and I don't mean THG review these units side by side and until we do Ill go with the proven favorite with the r134a gas..

Oh and of course a r404/r507 in a 40f area will have a big boost over it in a hot climate, but this is all about what the OEM will see and since r134a is the best warm temp gas it might be better when you match the environment to the unit.

r507 in that closed case in an 80-82f hot FL/CALI room umm :)

[JBELL]

Originally posted by Phyrox


also i disagree on one more thing. it DOES NOT take baker or bowman to prove this. there are many qualified individuals out there including you and me. no offence to anyone here but just because your "well known" does not exactly mean someone who is "nameless" cant make a do the same thing.




true but it DOES take someone you trust and know personally is knowledgable on the topic at hand. just syaing your qualified whether you are or not is not enough for me .. I need to see it.

[OPPAINTER]

The best way to test one machine against the other is by throwing a cpu under the evap. Simply see which rig overclocks the chip higher.

That simple.

OPP

[Evil_Spork]

but who has 2grand to toss around like that? =-\

maybe review them? head to head type thing? i'll give that one a go ;)

[OPPAINTER]

Artificial heat loaders are great for preliminary testing while building a unit.
But when it comes down to best performance, the rigs really should be tested next to each other with the same exact PC hardware.
This is how I would test the buggers anyway.

OPP

[chilly1]

OP you know you just can't keep your hands off the hardware!!

[Tomsawyer]

You know you have been overclocking too long when your looking at your girlfriends chest and start mumbling about bigger heatsinks, overclocking, and replacment compressors

Sorry been a long day at work lol

[Phyrox]

LoL

Yeah JBEll I understand where you are comming from. Personally I like to get my own impression on hardware -- thats why I never really want to see a review from someone before I get it (unless everyone is having problems with it).

I just dont like when a guy like OPP is unable to achieve a certain goal and then all of the staff thinks if the big guns cant do it no one can. Thats all.

[TheDude]

I just dont like when a guy like OPP is unable to achieve a certain goal and then all of the staff thinks if the big guns cant do it no one can. Thats all.

Staff? :confused:

[Phyrox]

Originally posted by TheDude
Staff? :confused:

Oops didnt mean staff meant members

[OPPAINTER]

Originally posted by Phyrox


I just dont like when a guy like OPP is unable to achieve a certain goal and then all of the staff thinks if the big guns cant do it no one can. Thats all.

Who are these guys that think if I can't do it, it can't be done?

It's Not true,,,

but I would still like to shake their hand:D

OPP

[TheDude]

Originally posted by OPPAINTER
Who are these guys that think if I can't do it, it can't be done?

It's Not true,,,

but I would still like to shake their hand:D

OPP

ERRR.....You mean besides you?:p: :stick: :D

[bowman1964]

yea guys depending on how you look at this...it can be decieving..

OPP and me are friends and he knows i will stand behind him.as i will any of by friends.

but lets all look at this from a cooling point of view...

for one..we all know if a unit can remove more heat it has the potental to overclock farther..but DO NOT GO BY ONE UNIT CLOCKING FARTHER THAN ANOTHER......UNLESS...the excate same hardwear is used withing a certain time period.

this is how my testing will be done..

first units will be ran for a half a day to equilize out.

then each will loaded with differant heat loads that will not be guessing but excate....

but i will show how the actuall heat loads are done.and how you can show one better than the other .just as the marketing guys do it...but i will keep the 2 excate as far as the test i will run on each...

then i will put real loads on them..

but last...
i will have a intel p4c 3.0c unit ..running the same cpu/motherboard and all.

install in the vapo and run for a couple of hours...measure temps off the die....though the bios...

and them swap out and place into the nventv unit.

this way there will be no differant chip(whick all of us know most chips very in temperature)..so i will go the extra mile and use the same hardwear.

i know everone wants to see how far they overclock....

but i am not doing that..overclocking is based on the man doing it...and hardwear has alot but not all of it..
i am not going to let human error interfear in my testing..

i will OPP do the overclocking,,LOL.

but the unit that can hold up the best under certain loads will HAVE THE PROTENTAL TO OVERCLOCK FARTHER..not nessasrly will.

please remember..unless the test is run from the same bench within the same time frame..taking out errors in room temps and hardwear..you cannot compair APPLES TO APPLES...

AND I AM GOING TO MAKE DAMM SURE THERE WILL BE A LEVAL PLAYING FIELD...APPLES TO APPLES...

let the best machine cool

bowman


and i have brand new lian li cases for both units so they will look pretty..and if i have time i will show the improvments each unit has over its old model..i have a vapo xe and a mach II i may use to help out..

[Jeff]

:up: Bowman! :toast:

[neyoung]

I'm not only stoked to see this review, but also to see the nventiv unit bowman keeps hinting about :)

[bowman1964]

well i was told there is a backorder on the 115v compressors from danfoss..i was also told i could have a 230v tommorow..

but i want it to be fair so i am waiting on a 115v model.

i was told a few 115v models that were released from backorder were shipped to the us..just depends on who got there orders in time i think.

mine will get here in time..april is when i plan on starting anyways...there is alot of work to be done.

i have a couple of copper heat blocks to mill out and adapters to make..so it isnt as easy as it sounds to give a fair and accurate review..this stuff is not sold anywhere..it all has to custom milled from a solid bar of copper..i have some but i wan