The Butcher block

[FUGGER]

Chilly1 reworked a Baker block to be used on a cascade system without a cap tube. The block looks rough but works great.

Initial testing done on a single stage, and we will be bumping up to another stage by this weekend.

http://fugger.netfirms.com/but1.jpg

http://fugger.netfirms.com/but2.jpg

[afireinside]

Looks good but how in the world do you insulate that thing?

[FUGGER]

foam tape and 3" foam insulation tubing. Condensation proofing is easy.

[afireinside]

Ok.... I wana see it when its done :p:

[baker18]

What happened to your custom blocks?????????????


baker18

[chilly1]

Playin with a bakerblock for a gpu....
I didn't remove much material....
We still have the custom blocks Just wanted to see how your block would perform on a pev, I needed an entry point so I chose the furthest point from the riser hole...

[bowman1964]

well i hope he has good luck...:D

i had already done that last year...i have one at the home converted with the same valve he is using....except i did mine a bitt better...i will post you a pic tonight if i get time...i ran mine though the center just like it was originaly made for...it was a tough conversion but it works...


good luck..it floods reall hard...

[DaBit]

A few things: the stainless steel hose. Without braid I have yet to see one which is designed to handle more than 120 psi. With the static pressures chilly1 normally uses, adding a braid is a must.

Also, why didn't you use a piece (say: 30cm/1ft or less) of captube in the bakerblock as intended, and connect that to the PEV? Would have improved injection....

[bowman1964]

dabit in his defense ..


the stainless tubing he is using looks to be the same as i am using,(but it may be totally differant,mine does have a differant tube end))and i have tested mine to over 450psi without any deforming or pressure lose.i was suprised it held..but it did..:D

[berkut]

Could you share with us the model / part number of that valve and where can it be bought on the net ?

[DaBit]

Originally posted by bowman1964
Dabit in his defense ..


Oops, did I sound defensive/agressive/whatever?
Nevermind, it's not meant that way.


the stainless tubing he is using looks to be the same as i am using,(but it may be totally differant,mine does have a differant tube end))and i have tested mine to over 450psi without any deforming or pressure lose.i was suprised it held..but it did..:D

Hmm, I expect ethylene is going to flow through this hose. In which case I would't take the risk.

A braid increases pressure resistance up to 1500psi or so. So why not use it? It's not the expensive part...

[unrealneo]

I assume that's for some 90nm cooling?;)

[Slickthellama]

man that baker block really doesnt look pretty. LOLZ.

[Russell_hq]

Here in the UK the British Standard for these stainless steel hoses at the diameters we are using states a design pressure of 200bar and if my math is correct that is 2900PSI so you are ok. The weak part is the connection, so thats all you have to worry about.

http://www.russellpetrie.plus.com/images/Nominal%20pressure.bmp

http://www.russellpetrie.plus.com/images/Nominal%20Size.bmp

[chilly1]

Originally posted by DaBit
A few things: the stainless steel hose. Without braid I have yet to see one which is designed to handle more than 120 psi. With the static pressures chilly1 normally uses, adding a braid is a must.

Also, why didn't you use a piece (say: 30cm/1ft or less) of captube in the bakerblock as intended, and connect that to the PEV? Would have improved injection....

I tried the captube and the backpressure created seems to interfere with the metering device, , I have installed an external volume to the system and static pressures are no more than 200 with a 135F ambient..
I also modified the internal structure of the block to give it more surface area, also the block now floods nicely, This is the key to improving the efficency of any block. Flooding provides more molecular contact with the blocks internal surface.

[chilly1]

Originally posted by berkut
Could you share with us the model / part number of that valve and where can it be bought on the net ?
The Valve is a parker A2 it is a .25 to 1.5 ton 5" vac to 90 psi pressure regulating valve, It will not work well on single stage systems and will lmit your temperatures to -45C or so with 404/507 od -55 with 410, It needs a higher hp for single stage systems and vacume function. IN positive pressure applications 3psi to 5psi yeilded a temperature of -85C with a 450 watt capacity on fuggers cascade, the best temps I have gotten are -97 to -100C and these were loaded temps, The PEV is the best solution for these chillers it will respond to a load. Where a captube gives you good temps but little capacity.

If you want one and cant find it PM me and I'll make arrngements for you to get one.

[chilly1]

Originally posted by DaBit
Oops, did I sound defensive/agressive/whatever?
Nevermind, it's not meant that way.



Hmm, I expect ethylene is going to flow through this hose. In which case I would't take the risk.

A braid increases pressure resistance up to 1500psi or so. So why not use it? It's not the expensive part...
I do use braid on cascade systems, this was a test rig I set up to check the capacity. I am probably going to go to a block with a larger internal surface area, By increasing the internal I increase the molucule to molecule ratio of internal gas to heat radiating surface so that I can run a lower pressure and still maintain capacity

[chilly1]

Originally posted by Slickthellama
man that baker block really doesnt look pretty. LOLZ.
Welded in a hurry to prove an idea. I didn't weld it in an inert atmosphere as I usually do, and I used 15% silfoss where 45% and a floride paste flux should have been used...

[bowman1964]

well this is how i redid a baker block to accept the valve.it still uses it original refrigerant path.

chilli not that i am tring to say your heat load it wrong..but it is almost impossable to put 450 watts of heat into any block period.

i can send you a pair of load resistors that will help you with the testing.depending on the voltage you apply they can easily go over 200 watts of actual heat load..
mine are excate..no guessing or making a dummy load from something you cannot actually measure heat output on.

i dont mind in helping another person at all.i have some extra i will more than glad to send you.just pm your address and i will send them right out buddy..that way we all will be on the same page.:D

[berkut]

Tecs arent good also beacause they pump heat and you cant perciselly estimate the amount of it

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by MickeyMouse
run a 226w 15v tec at 20v :) need a good 35-40a 24v PSU, but I think thta would be close as after you excedd vmax on a tec efficantcy drops on the cold side, but hotside temps skyrocket. :)

people you canot use a tec for acurate heat loads...
i have done it..they are inacurate..without a heat souce on the cold plate they drop heat output as they run...i have proven this in the past as i used to test with them....

a load resistor is the only way to obtain a true regulated heat load.

[bowman1964]

well i here is a link to a page that will give you the heat output if you know the ohms of the resistor used and voltage..it is very close..
to be excate i use a inline digital amp meter to measure actual amps drawn though the load resistor..at the same time measuing the voltage...

now also the load resistors have mounting area designed to mount down to a plate,used with heat sink paste you get a very acurate heat output to the evap.

http://www.arcol.co.uk/pages/resources/resistance-calculator.html

[chilly1]

That is the calculated heat load with R508 it tested close to that. And yes you can calculate the heat load , use hot water.
1 btu= 1degf/lb H2o and 1 Btu = 0.2930711 watthour
10 min 8 pints of water start temp of 100F ending temp 68F this yeilds a delta of 32F/10 min or 32x8x6 = 1536 btu/hr since 1 btu = .2930711 watthour then 1536x0.2930711=450 watts/hour
It was building a little ice before the end so yes it is almost inpossiable for me to get the actual load and the fact that it is building ice means that it is probably removing a little more heat.
And my block is a lot more effecient than the bakerblock due to the larger surface area and larger footprint. The larger footprint unfortunetly does not contact the cpu in its intirety (2" square) it is none the less hollowed out with the exception of 64 .15x.15 pins which is eight rows of 8 with all rows starting at 1/2 the distance from the bottom of the block..
The 1/2 hp compressor I use is capable of 750 watts/hour under the best condions. That is with a suction of 3 and a head of 185 and a gas massive enough to dissipate that much heat in the compression cycle.
So at 450 watts I am being conservitive. Nessassarly when you drop the temperature to -120 or lower you lose capacity unless you also change refrigerants to something that will give you simmilar masses and compressior ratios. Water is the best method of testing any heat load, however it is very difficault to insure and contamination of your results, I set up as near as I can a test set up using scientific method. I take all variables I am not testing to as close to zero as I can get. and test only 1, I insulated the water tank (cooler) and the exposed parts of the absorber(block) the only exception was the temperature probe and I neglected to calculate the heat that was dissipated into that from the water. All things being equal thisis only 1/4 ton of cooling from a 1/2 ton compressor so as far as my effeciency It is very low. If this was a commercial refrigeration system it would not be cost effective. on the other hand my first stage is running about 1/2 ton,,, but this is truly a guess.

[chilly1]

double post..

[chilly1]

Originally posted by bowman1964
people you canot use a tec for acurate heat loads...
i have done it..they are inacurate..without a heat souce on the cold plate they drop heat output as they run...i have proven this in the past as i used to test with them....

a load resistor is the only way to obtain a true regulated heat load.
And a tec can be used if you fully insulate it to insure no heat load from outside sources. as with your resistors you measure the voltage and the wattage to P=IxIxR or P=IxE P is power in watts I is current in amps E is electromotive force in volts.
Of course you have to wait for a few minuets to insure accurate readings,

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by chilly1
And a tec can be used if you fully insulate it to insure no heat load from outside sources. as with your resistors you measure the voltage and the wattage to P=IxIxR or P=IxE P is power in watts I is current in amps E is electromotive force in volts.
Of course you have to wait for a few minuets to insure accurate readings,

sorry you are wrong....

i have done so many test with tecs i know...the capicty drops...specs are one thing..i deal with actual tests no mathmatics...real world...sorry for sounding negitive...but wrong is wrong.

[chilly1]

Bowman, if you have a sealed system (the tec and block fully insulated) and you have one method of egress of heat for the system(the block) and no other heat input other than electrical, you cannot magically produce heat unless you suck it through the insulation on the cold side of the block, So if the only energy input into the system is measurable (the wattage consumed by the tec) then that is the load.
First Law of thermodynamics- Energy is never created or destroyed.

To explain it again I am fully insulate the tec, I let it run for a few minuets to reach its lowest possiable temperature then I check the amperage and voltage. The only energy entering this system is the electrical energy through the tec.

[Russell_hq]

I dont know if you are worried about this MickeyMouse but I would be. From the images it looks like you have waterproofed the back of your card and thats fine, but that wont insulate it from the heat so its gonna get cold and you might get condensation forming. So you better watch that the condensation doesn't run down into your AGP slot or you might end up with some problems, so id put some dielectric grease in the slot if you havent allready. Just my observation. :)

[DaBit]

Originally posted by Russell_hq
Here in the UK the British Standard for these stainless steel hoses at the diameters we are using states a design pressure of 200bar and if my math is correct that is 2900PSI so you are ok. The weak part is the connection, so thats all you have to worry about.

No, no.

I want to clear this issue up, and I will prove with an actual datasheet (which I don't have on this laptop). Many people are starting their cascade, and it won't be long before we all have R508B, R23, R170 or R1150.

Standard 3/8" corrugated stainless steel hose can be found in basically 3 forms, which have approximately these maximum working pressures at 20 degrees C (70F):

- Unbraided: 5-8 bar (75-120 psi)
- Single braid (304/316L stainless): ~100 bar (~1450 psi)
- Multiple braids ~200 bar (~2900 psi).

Burst pressure is usually about 4 times MWP (Maximum Working Pressure).

Thus, without braid you are in the danger zone. Who cares? Not many. But for the small extra fee I'd like my hoses equipped with a single braid.

Chilly1: what size is your low stage storage vessel? I am going to need one too; my high side/low side volume of the new cascade is going to make that necessary I think. And I better have it in advance than letting costly ethylene go while adding one.

[chilly1]

Originally posted by bowman1964
sorry you are wrong....

i have done so many test with tecs i know...the capicty drops...specs are one thing..i deal with actual tests no mathmatics...real world...sorry for sounding negitive...but wrong is wrong.
The capacity of the pelt to cool is not the issue. It is only the wattage that is dissipated into the isolated tec. The amp draw of the pelt. If the pelt is drawing 10 A at 12.5 volts that is 125 watts, this causes the pelt to absorb an additional 65 watts from the cold side. If we completly insulate the cold side the 65 watts go away. If the pelt is still drawing 125 watts and the only path for that energy is the block.
When you connect the resistors to the block you completly insulate them. in doing so you eliminate the extra heat gain from the surrounding air. I am doing the same thing with the pelt, the cooling capacity of the pelt is not a nessassary component in th ecalculations of ths heat dissipating capabilities of th eblock being tested. The only issue is the amount of heat the block is capable of dissipating.

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by chilly1

To explain it again I am fully insulate the tec, I let it run for a few minuets to reach its lowest possiable temperature then I check the amperage and voltage. The only energy entering this system is the electrical energy through the tec.

well i shouldnt have came off so strong,you may not have noticed.but i was a little hard on you.for that i am sorry.:D

i understand what you are saying,as i have done a few of those tests months ago.and yes if you wait and measure after it has reached it lowest point you can caculate it from there.the only problem i have it is never stable load.i mean even after it drops it still will change slightly.not much but slightly.

i didnt like the variable in my test.it became hard to gauge the heat cooled.i like to also test by suddenly swicthing the load resistors on and off.to watch the system react to a sudden load...and the pelt takes a while to drop again.so they cannt dive me what i want.

i used pelts for a long time..and did many a test with them.but what i was getting at is..
since we all are in the same forum building and testing..why not work together and use the same heat sources..

i was offering to give you 2 dale load resistors that you coulkd use to make a more stable heat load and let us all compair...
apples to apples...not apples to oranges...

i was just trying to lend you a hand.some people accept new ideas when everyone is a team player...

i run a big business and i stress the team player approach..as i am a team player i offered my help.

[chilly1]

Originally posted by DaBit
No, no.

I want to clear this issue up, and I will prove with an actual datasheet (which I don't have on this laptop). Many people are starting their cascade, and it won't be long before we all have R508B, R23, R170 or R1150.

Standard 3/8" corrugated stainless steel hose can be found in basically 3 forms, which have approximately these maximum working pressures at 20 degrees C (70F):

- Unbraided: 5-8 bar (75-120 psi)
- Single braid (304/316L stainless): ~100 bar (~1450 psi)
- Multiple braids ~200 bar (~2900 psi).

Burst pressure is usually about 4 times MWP (Maximum Working Pressure).

Thus, without braid you are in the danger zone. Who cares? Not many. But for the small extra fee I'd like my hoses equipped with a single braid.

Chilly1: what size is your low stage storage vessel? I am going to need one too; my high side/low side volume of the new cascade is going to make that necessary I think. And I better have it in advance than letting costly ethylene go while adding one.
The stainless braid is the only option on a cascade, I use a corrugated stainless steel hose without braid on single stage systems with statics of 250psi@120F the multiple braid welded stainless I use on all cascade systems reguardless of static.
And I agree with you 100%

[chilly1]

Originally posted by bowman1964
well i shouldnt have came off so strong,you may not have noticed.but i was a little hard on you.for that i am sorry.:D

i understand what you are saying,as i have done a few of those tests months ago.and yes if you wait and measure after it has reached it lowest point you can caculate it from there.the only problem i have it is never stable load.i mean even after it drops it still will change slightly.not much but slightly.

i didnt like the variable in my test.it became hard to gauge the heat cooled.i like to also test by suddenly swicthing the load resistors on and off.to watch the system react to a sudden load...and the pelt takes a while to drop again.so they cannt dive me what i want.

i used pelts for a long time..and did many a test with them.but what i was getting at is..
since we all are in the same forum building and testing..why not work together and use the same heat sources..

i was offering to give you 2 dale load resistors that you coulkd use to make a more stable heat load and let us all compair...
apples to apples...not apples to oranges...

i was just trying to lend you a hand.some people accept new ideas when everyone is a team player...

i run a big business and i stress the team player approach..as i am a team player i offered my help.

No problem thx for the load resistors I'll use them ,
If we didn't discuss things here we would not have learned as much as we have and certainly will in the future...
I look forward to these discussions....

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by DaBit
No, no.



Burst pressure is usually about 4 times MWP (Maximum Working Pressure).

.

well as a parker dealer..that is a unspoken rule we use..all paker hoses are based on a 4 to 1 ratio of working pressure to burst pressure.

so if i make a 4000 psi working pressure hose..which i have my guys make dozens in a day..it should handle a 16,000psi surge before it blows...but all that depends on so many varibles...hose fitting crinped properly,bend radius,heat,cold...

so never trust the 4 to 1 ratio as a sure thing...as big as parker is...which we are the numer one hose maker in the world..i see a few defect products come though from time to time...

lets all be careful

[chilly1]

Here is the block I use on cascade systems this si a pic of the internal of an aluminum block and the pev..
http://www.blairwing.com/images/pevblock.jpg

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by chilly1
Here is the block I use on cascade systems this si a pic of the internal of an aluminum block and the pev..
http://www.blairwing.com/images/pevblock.jpg

damm i believe i was coppied...LOL here is my gpu block..i made months ago..looks familar

[chilly1]

Good ideas are found everywhere but if you check the www.uspto.gov data base......
Fugger and I cut this out in sept.

Who cut your pins off...??

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by chilly1
Good ideas are found everywhere but if you check the www.uspto.gov data base......
Fugger and I cut this out in sept.

Who cut your pins off...??

LOL i machined mine on my cnc at work and i did it .LOL

Tuesday, March 04, 2003, 2:37:51 AM

or at least thats when i took the pic...LOL

i have it posted somewhere in the bowmans mod shop somewhere in there...LOL

i am one of the guys who pioneered this stuff a couple of years ago...LOL..no neebee here...:D before me there where a handfull of guys doing it.

now it seams everyone wants a piece of the cake...:D

[bowman1964]

this may give some a idea of how long i have been doing this...
my old websites are still up and going...LOL over 3 years just in extreeme cooling alone.

like i said...i happened to be one of the pioneers you may say.

and guys dont laugh so hard at my old stuff...lol

http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/perl/709/

http://members.fortunecity.com/ajr011/bowmanscoolingextreeme1/

[tennvols_69]

i notice bowman on one of your sites under links you had LEUFKENTECHNOLOGIES.COM on it. i bought a waterblock for them the one with the open bottom it worked great ever play with it?

[DaBit]

Originally posted by chilly1
The stainless braid is the only option on a cascade, I use a corrugated stainless steel hose without braid on single stage systems with statics of 250psi@120F

That's OK :)


the multiple braid welded stainless I use on all cascade systems reguardless of static.
And I agree with you 100%

:)
Many more people are going the cascade route, and failure/injuries because you didn't know something is bad. It's also part of our job to make people aware of these things. We tend to keep on stretching limits...

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by tennvols_69
i notice bowman on one of your sites under links you had LEUFKENTECHNOLOGIES.COM on it. i bought a waterblock for them the one with the open bottom it worked great ever play with it?

you talking about the direct die blocks he had....yea i had a couple..dude has them now..he was playing last time i spoke to him.

those sites are old as the hills..i have not worked on them in a couple of years.just goes to show i have been doing this stuff for a while..i was overclocking before half of the new guys were able to eat solid food from there mom....