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Slickthellama
01-12-2004, 08:57 PM
Should highschools start later than they currently do?


PLEASE!! I NEED YOUR ADVISE! SO PLZ READDDDDDDDD
NOTE: NOT REVISED!

As I awake day by day it is the same feeling every day. I feel nothing but sleepy. And I go to bed at 11:00. I typically wake up at around 7:00. This gives me about eight hours of sleep. Which is a little under the recommended amount; but still better than most of my fellow high-school teens. A recent survey done by Jon Gole found that over 89% of teens feel like they are not getting enough sleep because they feel tired throughout the school day.
My proposal is to move back the school day so it would start at 9:40 and end at 4:21. I believe that starting the school day closer to the afternoon will allow teens to feel fully rested. During an interview with Mrs. Lang (mathematics teacher) she had noted that she thought that kids would go to bed later if the school day started later. I think she is right; some students would go to bed later. But there are also the students who would go to bed at the exact same time every night, and continue to do so. Recall in the beginning that I stated I always go to bed at 11:00; I would now assuming I got up at 9:00 get about ten hours of sleep. This is about the optimum amount of sleep.
If late start were to be applied, AHS would need to bring in some sleep experts to come in and educate teens on the dangers of regular lack of sleep. Teens need to be educated on time management. If teens could be more responsible they could easily manage having a sport start at 5:00(PM). Teachers seem to think that students at AHS would not have enough time for after school activities; given that school ends at 4:21. I think the notion of this is ludicrous. Most afterschool activites don’t go for more than three hours. Even if an activity were to go three hours you would still get out at 8:00 if it started at 5:00. Eight o’ clock, that leaves three hours for homework and such. If they get to bed at 11:00, and wake up at 8:00, they still have gotten nine hours sleep. So as you can see I think that people are just to lazy to try and rearrange their schedules and try something new.
Many feel that this whole idea is a big long shot, but it has been done. Edina, a Minneapolis area suburban school district, tried changing start times from 7:20 to 8:40. Parents were happy that their kids would be getting more sleep, but were concerned about after school activities. It turned out that at the end of the study, “92 percent of respondents on a survey for Edina high school parents indicated that they preferred the later start times.” [Wahlstorm, 3].
Lack of sleep not only has an effect on school work, but it has also been linked to depression in teens, trouble relating to peers and parents, and use of alchohol and drugs. It is no mystery why teens often sleep in first and second hours, the teenage brain naturally wants to go to bed later and rise later. It is just the way the mind operates at this age. I know first hand how tired and apathetic teens are in first and second hour. It is almost as if these hours are wasted because students are just so bloody tired in the morning due to natural sleep paterns. It is worthwhile to note that I don’t believe my policy of 9:40 is written in stone. Even a one hour late start would be fine with me. Because progress can sometimes be slow. [Wahlstorm, 2]
The reason most teens go to bed so late, is that we naturally want to go to bed at later times and get up at later times. “Medical researchers found this cycle is part of the maturation of the endocrine system. From the onset of puberty until late teen years, the brain chemical melatonin, which is responsible for sleepiness, is secreted from approximately 11 p.m. until approximately 8 a.m., nine hours later. This secretion is based on human circadian rhythms and is rather fixed. In other words, typical youth are not able to fall asleep much before 11 p.m. and their brains will remain in sleep mode until about 8 a.m., regardless of what time they go to bed.” [Wahlstorm, 1] This makes a lot of sense to me. It is very hard for me to go to bed before 11:00. I would be willing to bet that a lot of teens feel the same way I do, not even tired before 11:00. I am fortunate enough to take my showers at night thereby spending less time up in the morning and getting more sleep. It is hard for adults to understand this but I could get ten hours sleep, and get up at 7:00AM and I would feel totally wiped. But if I get eight hours of sleep and wake up at 9:00AM I would feel totally refreshed and on top of the world. And I know this from first hand experience of sleep times on weekends.
I believe that teens feel so sleep in the beginning of school that they do not participate, do not actively listen, and do not do much besides sleep in the first two hours. This is thought to be a result of the body trying to fill the sleep void of an hour with two hours of attempted sleep. Mrs. Lang reported that she saw significantly more sleepy students in her first two hours than in the rest of the day. I believe this is as a result of said problem. If the TSD would move the schedule back two hours, even one, this would allow for teens to get the precious one missing hour of sleep that they need. This would more than likely result in immediate overall GPA increase in the student body due to increased alertness during school.
Another major problem brought to my attention by Mrs. Lang is that we would need to move back all the school times, this isn’t necessarily true. We could switch the start times of the elementary schools and go the other way around. With the elementary kids starting at ~7:40, as they need less sleep than teens and tend to be early risers. This would allow for bus schedules to be just simply inverted, switching around the elementary and high school bus schedules. This is totally do-able.
I feel that the primary goal of a school is to provide the best education for their students. School administrators and counselors should be much more willing to take steps to allow students at least one hour of additional sleep. Admins are fully willing to take steps to see that students don’t arrive late to class, or absent, but it seems fully ok for students to be absent minded due to lack of sleep. This makes no sense to me.
Another study conducted in Minnesota proved further that later start times have brilliant recourses. Students from three different districts were polled on sleep habits. District A was then moved back to a later start time of about one hour later than normal. “High school students in District A report not going to bed much later than students at the two other demographically similar schools, while they get up roughly an hour later. That is, students in District A, as a group, are getting a full hour more sleep than students at the two similar schools with earlier start times. This difference in amount of sleep was found to be related to students' reports of how they feel and perform during the school day. District A students reported less overall sleepiness, less daytime sleepiness, less erratic sleep behaviors, and less depressive feelings and behaviors when compared to students in the early start time schools. Students in District A reported getting higher grades. The observed effects appear, to some extent, to be related to simply getting more sleep.” [Wahlstrom] You can’t argue with results.
Are the students of Athens High School ready to start school later? It would most definitely require better time management. But this is something that most teens will need to learn eventually anyway. I think most teens are smart enough to be able to manage their time even when the day is foreshortened. Students participating in previously mentioned sleep study found that even though their day was shortened they still found it easy to participate in extra curricular activities and get homework done. However students with after school jobs did report significantly less time to work a job.
Early start times do not only affect teens at school. Sometimes teens are disrespectfull and or rude to parents because they are simply too tired to function properly. So they have bad attitudes and sometimes become depressed due to lack of sleep. It seems to me that this is surely worth the costs to help depression.
Lack of sleep has become an epidemic. Chernobyl, the Challenger disaster and the Exxon Valdiz oil spill were all linked to severe cases of sleep deprivation. [CNN SLEEP STUDY] Obviously teenage sleep deprivation won’t cause disasters like this. But lack of sleep in teens has been linked to car accidents.
To wrap things up I would just like to say that humans need sleep. It is a given fact. Also a given fact is that teens need more sleep. Teens also have different sleep patterns than adults. It must be hard for adults to grasp this; but it is nothing but the truth. As it stands right now, teens aren’t getting enough sleep. Either we let this problem go on forever or we do something about it. Now where we go from here I leave up to you. But these are the facts.



This report is The work of Clark G. and is not for reproduction. With works cited from

CNN Health “Lack of Sleep America’s Top Health Problem”
March 17, 1997
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9703/17/nfm/sleep.deprivation/

Wahlstrom, Kyla. “Later start times for high school students”
June 2002
http://education.umn.edu/research/ResearchWorks/sleep.htm

Wahlstrom, Kyla
http://education.umn.edu/CAREI/Programs/Start_time/VIIexec_summ.html


Surveys done by Jon G with permission (thanks jon:D )

And an interview with mrs lang.

Soulburner
01-12-2004, 09:00 PM
That's something I always wanted but it will be hard to change.

2fast4u
01-12-2004, 09:02 PM
If the day started later that would just mean that my son would play Call of Duty till 3 A.M. instead of 1 A.M.! I know this becuase the router is down in my folding farm room and I see his connection sucking up all my bandwidth! heheheh!

Slickthellama
01-12-2004, 09:02 PM
yeah it's a research paper. Im in 10th grade and part of the midterms are research papers. But now im considering taking it to the supernintendo of the school dist.

KnightElite
01-12-2004, 09:55 PM
I dunno, I can certainly say that I stay up later when I don't have to get up. I'm in university, and my first class is at 12:30 MWF and 2:30 Tuesday Thursday. Staying up till 3AM or later is not unusual for me.

shray
01-12-2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Slickthellama
the supernintendo of the school dist. supernintendo? someone ha been playing too many games !

Thaddy
01-12-2004, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by KnightElite
I dunno, I can certainly say that I stay up later when I don't have to get up. I'm in university, and my first class is at 12:30 MWF and 2:30 Tuesday Thursday. Staying up till 3AM or later is not unusual for me.

Same here, the earliest I start is noon, and I'm always done by 3-4 in time for practice.

I remember in high school though they flirted with this idea, but it was too much work involved. The idea makes sense, but people are too lazy to make the changes.

Soulburner
01-12-2004, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by shray
supernintendo? someone ha been playing too many games !
Or not getting enough sleep because school is too early ;).

hollywood
01-13-2004, 02:18 AM
Bah...thats the point of high school....punishment. Kids want it too damn easy these days. If you want to get up later for school, schedule your classes that way in college. ;)

sandman
01-13-2004, 01:18 PM
My personaly preference would be to get rid of the classes that do nothing.

Then, we could just shorten the whole damn day.

*just got home from school, and despises it*

Iridium192_217
01-13-2004, 01:25 PM
bad idea, think of all the after school stuff, people with marching band or something would get back at like 8:00 with one hour of homework.

At my school they are thinking about having school on Friday's start an hour later & ending at the same time - sweet!

Schmax
01-13-2004, 02:20 PM
Most students in my class need some additional sleep too, myself included.

School starts at 07:25 AM, and because I live ~30 miles away from where I go to school, I have to get up at 05:15 AM. The bus (which I never use :D) leaves at 06:15.
Best thing: tuesdays, thursdays and fridays, school ends for me at 5:30 PM, with only one hour of lunch break. That's 10 hours of sitting in class.

If they'd make school start an hour later, I wouldn't be able to get home until 8 PM (!) on the named days. That's 2 hours of spare time until I have to go to bed again or I'd fall asleep while driving to school next morning...

:(

eddy
01-13-2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Hollywood
Bah...thats the point of high school....punishment. Kids want it too damn easy these days. If you want to get up later for school, schedule your classes that way in college. ;) Thank you. How about kids go to sleep earlier instead of starting school later? How about the kids go out less and do more studying? OH of course not. You can't do that to the poor little kiddies.
ok, i start work at 8 a.m. Should I talk to my boss and tell him to start work at 9 or 9:30 instead of at 8?

docah
01-13-2004, 07:13 PM
When i was in HS i typically went to bed between 12-2 am.
If i went to bed earlier i felt tired, I felt fine on my normal schedule.

Maybe i'm a freak, but the more i sleep(past 5-6hrs) the worse/tired i feel the next day.

Tweaked!
01-13-2004, 07:22 PM
Ever consider going to bed earlier???

Look at it this way, the earlier you go, the earlier you get home to have the rest of the day to yourself. Plus, once you're out of school and you hit the workforce, you'll be getting up this early anyways. So why make it a huge adjustment to your life. Just live it that way and become adjusted to it early on in life. Some peeps buck that part of it most of their lives and can never hold down a good job for too long.

eddy
01-13-2004, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by Tweaked!
Ever consider going to bed earlier???

Look at it this way, the earlier you go, the earlier you get home to have the rest of the day to yourself. Plus, once you're out of school and you hit the workforce, you'll be getting up this early anyways. So why make it a huge adjustment to your life. Just live it that way and become adjusted to it early on in life. Some peeps buck that part of it most of their lives and can never hold down a good job for too long. Very well said.
The parents should kick them out of the house as soon as possible. Make them get jobs, even if it's some small weekend job. Get the kids to learn all about responsibility.
By moving the start of school ahead doesn't mean kids are gonna get extra sleep. I'll even go as far as saying moving the start time ahead would make kids miss more school. Their parents would leave for work about 2 hours before the kids left for school. How would the kids get to school then? They'd have to walk. If they didn't have someone to drive them, would you trust them to get to school on time?

Jeff
01-13-2004, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by eddy
I start work at 8 a.m. Should I talk to my boss and tell him to start work at 9 or 9:30 instead of at 8?

Exactly what I thought when I read the initial post.

A couple years ago I had to be to work by 6am. Tack onto that the 45-50 minutes it took to get there, and you're talking about waking up at 4:15-4:30am and one hell of a long day. Two or three cups of coffee by 8am were not uncommon. ;) Do you think I told my company "I'm tired... I want to start later."? No way. They'd just tell me to stay home... for good. :)

Parents and school districts are absolute wimps anymore. I can't get over how much people complain(yeah... I know... look at what I'm doing :rolleyes: ). Too many people look for dumb solutions to pretty simple "problems". Kids are tired in the morning... let's push back the school day. What a joke. :rolleyes:

sandman
01-13-2004, 08:07 PM
Personally, if my parents weren't home to see me leave for school, I'd probably skip alot of school........

Another thing is if they moved school back, I'd jsut go to bed later.

Instead of 11, it'd be 1.

Soulburner
01-14-2004, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by eddy
Thank you. How about kids go to sleep earlier instead of starting school later? How about the kids go out less and do more studying? OH of course not. You can't do that to the poor little kiddies.
ok, i start work at 8 a.m. Should I talk to my boss and tell him to start work at 9 or 9:30 instead of at 8?
This is a different story, the sleep needs of teenagers who are at their growth peak is much different from those of adults such as yourself.

Also their internal "clocks" are different as well.

It doesn't matter how tired I am, sometimes I cannot get to sleep until a certain time. Not so much anymore but in High School sometimes I would stay up until 2-4 AM on school days because I just couldn't sleep. You can't be so ignorant and just say "why don't you go to bed earlier" - this argument is lame and doesn't work.

It is a known fact that younger peoples internal "clock" (don't know what else to call it) is different from that of adults. Their bodies just have trouble sleeping too early. Talk to a sleep specialist or something, they will confirm this. I'm not saying every teenager goes through this but a lot of them do.

Tweaked!
01-14-2004, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by Soulburner
This is a different story, the sleep needs of teenagers who are at their growth peak is much different from those of adults such as yourself.

Also their internal "clocks" are different as well.

It doesn't matter how tired I am, sometimes I cannot get to sleep until a certain time. Not so much anymore but in High School sometimes I would stay up until 2-4 AM on school days because I just couldn't sleep. You can't be so ignorant and just say "why don't you go to bed earlier" - this argument is lame and doesn't work.

It is a known fact that younger peoples internal "clock" (don't know what else to call it) is different from that of adults. Their bodies just have trouble sleeping too early. Talk to a sleep specialist or something, they will confirm this. I'm not saying every teenager goes through this but a lot of them do.

The human body is trainable. If you consistently go to bed at 9pm for several months in a row without interupting the schedule, you would start to yawn and get real tired if you tried staying up later than that. If you still have problems getting to sleep after say 6 months of consistently attempting to go to bed at a set time, then you may need to go to a sleep therapist. There is something wrong with you.
It's just the same as training your body to go to the bathroom to take a sh*t at set points of the day. It is very much possible to train your body to accept these set functions as long as you adhere to them religiously. You can't do it through the week and forget about it on the weekends. You'll pay the price on monday when you try to rresume the schedule. It's basically the same as a caffiene addiction (needing so many cups of coffee in the morning to feel awake).
And yes, teenagers do have a different "internal clock", but their bodies are still trainable in the same manner.

eddy
01-14-2004, 05:23 AM
So Soulburner...let's say a kid goes thru high school, graduated, and then decides to not go to college. The 18 year old kid decides to get a job instead of continuing on in his education. If you were his first boss, would you let him start work later? He'd be working a few months after he graduated so 'his body might not be ready' for waking up so early and going to work on time.

sky
01-14-2004, 06:58 AM
the thing with starting later is that you most probably might get a better start into the working or school day. BUT think of the afternoon. you'd have to stay late and by then you're probably as tired as before, just that you get home even later.
atm i get up at 0700, start work at 0800-0830am and am done around 1600-1700. most of the time i hit the sack at 0000-0130 depends :). so on an average day i get about 5-7hrs sleep. back in school i had to get up somewhat earlier than that, but my bedtime didn't differ much from where it is now.

i always wanted to skip the lunch break and thus quit the day earlier so i still have some time of day remaining that can be used for whatever

also, when i was in the army, i had to get up around 05xx and was done there some time around 1630 - back home at 17xx. this pi**ed me off a great deal - especially in the winter, when i didn't see the sun all day or only thru some barracks windows. every day there was just another wasted day - cause when i got home and it was all dark, i felt like the day was lost and all.

dunno. i wouldn't want to start school any later - especially if my school days were as long as yours actually are. the earlier your done with it, the better.

and for me personally too much sleep - no matter what some fance study claims - blows me. having 10hrs of sleep usually wastes me - i'm even more (!) tired than with only 6hrs. i can live with 4hrs sleep - every once in a while, but not too often.
if i were you, i'd experiment with my sleeping times, trying 6hrs, few days later 7hrs, another few days later 8hrs, etc... that should give you enough "recovery time" between those days.


eddy:

back in university i was on a crazy schedule - while the semester went on, i had to get up some time around 0600 and hit the sack at ~0000-0100. when the semester was done and i had some months (2) off, my schedule changed to bedtime at 0600 or later and getup time moved to the afternoon. at the beginning of the next semester i would be wasted ;) for a week recovering from that crazy schedule, since i'd run it until that last weekend, and after that all was normal...
it's just a matter of getting used to - so no, i as his boss wouldn't probably have him come in later - others would want the same ... and you can imagine where that leads...

Soulburner
01-14-2004, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by eddy
So Soulburner...let's say a kid goes thru high school, graduated, and then decides to not go to college. The 18 year old kid decides to get a job instead of continuing on in his education. If you were his first boss, would you let him start work later? He'd be working a few months after he graduated so 'his body might not be ready' for waking up so early and going to work on time.
What does this have to do with what I said?

This person you speak of is done with school and is getting toward the end of their teenage years. Bad example, but nice try...

eddy
01-14-2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by me
So Soulburner...let's say a kid goes thru high school, graduated, and then decides to not go to college. The 18 year old kid decides to get a job instead of continuing on in his education. If you were his first boss, would you let him start work later? He'd be working a few months after he graduated so 'his body might not be ready' for waking up so early and going to work on time.
This is a different story, the sleep needs of teenagers who are at their growth peak is much different from those of adults such as yourself.-that is from you. You said that teenagers have different sleep habits (needs) than adults. Now lets say you graduate from high school and get a job right after that. Should your boss take into consideration your sleep habits as a teenager ? Should your boss let you come into work an hour later?
------------
re-read your post. keeping my previous thoughts though. I do have to add something.
This person you speak of is done with school and is getting toward the end of their teenage years So where do you draw the line? Before high school? Please say no because that's not even halfway thru your teenage years. What about when you're 16? that's the halfway point of your teenage years. But then you'd have teachers there an hour longer or have to start a whole new school.

skate2snow
01-14-2004, 04:26 PM
Me i whould more love that the shcool dont start at all:D;)

sandman
01-14-2004, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by sky

eddy:

back in university i was on a crazy schedule - while the semester went on, i had to get up some time around 0600 and hit the sack at ~0000-0100. when the semester was done and i had some months (2) off, my schedule changed to bedtime at 0600 or later and getup time moved to the afternoon. at the beginning of the next semester i would be wasted ;) for a week recovering from that crazy schedule, since i'd run it until that last weekend, and after that all was normal...
it's just a matter of getting used to - so no, i as his boss wouldn't probably have him come in later - others would want the same ... and you can imagine where that leads...

Over the summer, I go to bed around 4AM, and get up around 2PM.

It's just natural, I can do that all the time.

Slickthellama
01-14-2004, 08:11 PM
the fact is that teens have a harder time falling asleep early than adults do. It is a proven fact that teens naturally are late to sleep and late to wake. Cant argue with science. Once we get older and grow out of it than we can work normal hours of an adult.

Soulburner
01-14-2004, 08:21 PM
Finally someone agrees with me.

skate2snow
01-15-2004, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by Slickthellama
the fact is that teens have a harder time falling asleep early than adults do. It is a proven fact that teens naturally are late to sleep and late to wake. Cant argue with science. Once we get older and grow out of it than we can work normal hours of an adult. I whould love my mom see that(i have to go bed at 9:30:mad:)and shes always saying: no its not true, if you go to bed earlier you will sleep better. Its not true coze when i go to sleep at 11:00 i will be more active the morning, so i love the part "It is a proven fact "....LOL