UK Refrigarent help

[RaptorRed]

could some one tell me which of the popular promie refigarents ie r404a and r507 are legal in the uk and what i could use as a substitute for r12?
thanks in advance.
Raptor out

[chilly1]

There are a number of subs for R12. Did the UK sign the Montreal accord? I think so. This was the phase our of cloroflorocarbon gasses. R12 included, I use r409,r416 or r401b for r 12 medium temp apps,R12 low temp it's r416 or r401a these are all compatiable with mineral oil and alkylbenzene, for polyolester oil use r134a although you lose capacity and need a bigger condenser. There is a company that sells alternative refrigerants in the Uk www.care-refrigerants.co.uk/ , I don't know how well they work, I think they are hydrocarbon refrigerants but???
You can go here...http://www.ineosfluor.com/refrigeration/europe/Products/Refrigerants/index.htm for an available list...
Or local place to buy is at... ( A-Gas Ltd (UK) Banyard Road
Potbury West
Bristol, Avon BS20 7XH
United Kingdom
Phone:+ 44 1275 376600
Fax:+FPS 44 1275 376601
or
ISCEON Distribution Services
Bristol, Avon BS11 9YF
United Kingdom
Phone:+ 44 117 9484170
Fax:+ 44 117 9484254
They al have 507and 404....

[RaptorRed]

thanks for the info mate, i asked an ac man today and he said he didnt have 404a guess was just his company not legal issue will try those conntacts cheers :toast:

[Holst]

If you do find somebody reliable who can fill 404A can you please most or PM me details as ill need help in a few weeks.

[ThunderStorm]

can anyone tell me why its a gas not legal?

[Redwolf]

CFC's (R12,502,11,114,500,etc) supposedly destroy the ozone layer.

[Marci]

To buy the gas yourself in the UK requires a HVAC license. VERY few places will sell to u if u don't have one. Getting an a/c company to buy it in shouldn't be a prob...

R12, R22 etc aren't legal for use in the UK (ok to use in existing systems that have it in, but you're not allowed to recharge any systems with it...)

[RaptorRed]

so whats the best refrigerat to swap the r12 out of my old 56watt fidge commpressor if i want to use it on a gpu? and are a/c compqnys alowed to discharge it?

[SamConway]

Originally posted by chilly1
Or local place to buy is at... ( A-Gas Ltd (UK) Banyard Road
Potbury West
Bristol, Avon BS20 7XH
United Kingdom
Phone:+ 44 1275 376600
Fax:+FPS 44 1275 376601
or
ISCEON Distribution Services
Bristol, Avon BS11 9YF
United Kingdom
Phone:+ 44 117 9484170
Fax:+ 44 117 9484254
They al have 507and 404.... [/B]

thats just down the road from me, great info thats chilly :thumbsup:

they'll be getting a visit from me in the not so distant future

[chilly1]

Refrigerant certification is not too hard to get. In the states it's a knoledge based test to make sure you understand the reasons and methode of handeling refrigerants, and The UK as a signatory to the Montreal Protocol from the late seventies early eighties the test methods would be simmilar... I mod Promies but I use only R507.... Simmilar to R404a but with out the R134a added. PM me if you need help....

[chilly1]

Originally posted by RaptorRed
so whats the best refrigerat to swap the r12 out of my old 56watt fidge commpressor if i want to use it on a gpu? and are a/c compqnys alowed to discharge it?
If you use R404 in a compressor for r12 you need to pay close attention to your superheat and subcooling. In the UK there is another alternative there is a commecially available gas that does not fall under the Clean Air Act. It is a hydrocarbon refrigerant.

Environmentally friendly CARE refrigerants are available in the UK by calling BOC's freephone number 0800 02 0800. When calling from outside of the UK, please dial +44 1483 244441 or FAX +44 1483 532115

[Russell_hq]

If you want to buy CARE refrigerants, then you have to do a training course orginised by the company that produces them, namely Calor Gas. The training course costs £45 +VAT (£52.88) and only runs on certain dates in the year. I tried phoning the place to buy some and I was told I need the certificate that I have done the training or i could not buy the refrigerants. I pointed out to him that I could go down to my local DIY shop and buy cylinders of propane no bother, but he was insistant that I had to have completed the training course even if I wanted to buy the 300g cylinders.
www.care-refrigerants.co.uk (http://www.care-refrigerants.co.uk)

Training details;
http://www.care-refrigerants.co.uk/training/default.asp?idofuser=&catid=8&from=T&where=T

Also if you are buying refrigerant in the UK, i dont think in comes in cylinders smaller than around 10kg. If you look at the manufacturers website you will find this out.

[RaptorRed]

Ok guys thanks for all the usefull info and insite into the refrigerant world ;) some one hear from the uk must have 404a modded a promie if so let him speak up and tell us how or who modded it.

[Marci]

*Pats his bottle of 404a*

WILL have a 404a modded one soon (soon as me tubing arrives)... got a 404a'd VapoPE... we just phoned our local a/c man and he came n' did that (found Fridge and AirCon Repairs in yellow pages, and rang down the list in alphabetical order til someone said "yes")... his company always has a bottle of it around somewhere...

The story as we got told it was that to buy 134a and 404a etc you have to sit an HVAC Certification course at some place in Grimsby (the only place in the country to do the certification, and all UK A/C men have to go there to get it) and that it cost a few hundred quid. You can do the cheaper one but that only allows you to buy certain refrigerants, not the ones we want...

Dunno how factual that is but that's what our a/c guy told us...

[Russell_hq]

How much did it cost to get your system charged? This seems like a good idea. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free (well alot cheaper) :D

Did the guy test it so he filled it with the optimum amount?

[Marci]

The guy didn't have the slightest clue of optimum amount, and without a cap tube mod on the VapoPE establishing the optimum amount is a challenge in itself. We'll be redoing it ourselves next week with cap tube mod and THEN we'll mess around to get the optimum charge. Don't forget, if u phone an a/c guy then it's by-the-hour-billing... That cost towards £85 as he had to prat about with it first having never seen one before... add linetaps etc.... thought most ppl after reading this forum would reach straight for the local phone book and ring round the fridge men.... most logical place to start *shrugs*

The 404a can cost £100 for 10kgs...

[chilly1]

I would charge it first using the vacume top off method and get some readings in the superheat and subcooling....amp draw ect.
as far as starting issues a tank circuit with a large cap,coil and limiter would give you the extra current to start the DC compressos. Usually I can get the prometeia's to run -30 lower without a cap tube mod and My superheats and subcooling are within spec as well as RLA so compressor never overheats... contact Fugger I did his with R507, Re-built OP's And have done a number of others with no cap tube mods... The only issue's I've seen are contaminants left in system by improper vacume techniques or R404 gas charging instead of liquid and the gas fractionating.

And sorry about the info Russel, I live here in the us and I am an HVAC/R engineer and an HVAC/R instructor. Here in the states CFC,HFC and HCFC refrigerants are controlled by section 608 of the clean air act I knew the UK had a simmilar rule but I am not familiar with their enforcment of it.


EDIT : If you find a frige man and he needs or you need help detemining the length of cap tube PM me or maybe Gary Lloyd, I think he posted a method of determining the length of a cap tube I'll post it straight away when I find the link..

[Marci]

Have you done any Vapo's d00d? Compressor is a small 12v affair rather than the Prommi's 240v/110v beast... (have to check these things as a lot of peeps haven't worked on em, only prommis, and the two tend to be different)...

It's not so much a start issue as a restart issue. Unit fires fine, but once the compressor itself has warmed up (ie top of compressor passes 40deg C) then if you restart the system (which also restarts the compressor) it stalls after a few seconds of power being reapplied to it.... then takes 38 minutes, til compressor feels physically cold again (usually about 22 deg C) before it'll succesfully start again...

I wasn't present when the 404 charge was done... afaik he did it all by pressure hence why we're redoing it asap...

[chilly1]

The internal O/L is probably opening. You may be under charged or the cap too restrictive. Although 40degC is not too hot. It may be that the pressure has not equalized and the internal is tripping because the compressor is not capable of the torque nessassary to overcome the pressure. a solonoid valve across the condenser discharge and the suction through a fixed oriface may solve the restart problem. What is your suction line temp and pressure and liquid line pressure and temp and you said r404 right....

I have set up mobil systems with r507 in a danfoss r134a 12 v compressor for an 18 cubic foot icecream freezer. Originally it was for 0 degrees now running @ -10 no more soft icecream.

[Marci]

Will get those temps for u at the weekend.... can't get pressure readings til my control tap lands... schraeder on the Vapo doesn't match my fill lines unfortunately :(

Solonoid idea sounds interesting.... care to elaborate??

[chilly1]

You use a four foot piece of .031 cap tube and a 12 v solonoid valve have it set so the valve opens when the compressor is off.
This way the pressures will equilize when the compressor is off. the solonoid needs to be connected from the discharge line to the suction. so that when it does open, the refrigerant in the condenser reverses and balances with the suction line. Basically from the compressor outlet to the compressor inlet is open as long as the compressor is off and the 12v line is energized (you can use a line voltage solonoid coil and a 12v relay) Flow on the valve is from highside to lowside.

[Marci]

Sounds good.... will take that to the lads tomorrow and see if they fancy checkin it out...

[chilly1]

What is on the Vapo for a tap?

[Marci]

Just a schraeder valve... no tap at the mo (am waiting for em to arrive)

You gonna suggest just putting the solonoid in from the tap?

[chilly1]

No use the suction line and put in a tee. Use atleast 6" .030 cap tube on each side. This is to meter the flow and prevent heat conduction to the sol valve. Orient the valve so the flow is from the discharge to the suction. connect at the compressor before the condenser.

[Marci]

Hmmmm.... only prob I can see at the mo is I only have 0.026 and 0.028 cap tube and next order won't go in til after christmas... just a matter of using more length with smaller diameter? 10 to 12" of 0.028 per side do the job?

[chilly1]

Actually in this application we only want to limit the chances the sol will get too hot and we wish to meter the flow to some degree. So 6" of 0.28 is fine. This is only to equilize the pressure during the off cycle.
As for increasing the length .030 would need to be longer to give you the same capacity as 0.028 :)