Lack of 'Xtreme' Keyboards on XtremeSystems

[AndrewZorn]

I've been narrowing down my decision for months now, and I'm pretty sure I'm getting this:

http://www.hovanfue.com/store/product_images/i/hhkb_pro2__85433.jpg

but am still very much considering this

http://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/th/SE1700_iso_th500x300.jpg

but have pretty much decided against this:

http://www.diatec.co.jp/image_prod/FKBN87MLEB_01.jpg


If you have suggestions then I definitely want them... but considering the XS search results most are not interested. But why? Everything else about computers here is worth every penny, but what about the only part(s) you touch every day, your means of interacting with the computer?

PS: the lowest prices of the above three, in USD, no typos:
$244
$256
$115-$129

[R31Nismoid]

So you're after a mech keyboard then, going by those 3 you've listed :)

There are some others, i will try remember the other company that makes some really cool mech ones. I was thinking about one recently actually

[AndrewZorn]

first two are not mechanical actually

both same company and switch
#1 - revolutionary layout and beautiful
#2 - slightly better built than #1 and (but?) traditional layout

[R31Nismoid]

Im sure that 2nd one is...


Unless this is wrong (below link, i found the thing i remembered reading)

http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/491752-mechanical-keyboard-guide.html

[AndrewZorn]

first sentence after picture

Guess what? These keyboards are not mechanical. Nope. They use Topre Capacitive switches - rubber domes with springs underneath. But these are not your average Logitech rubber domes, they are specially designed to give you that tactile feedback and actuate before they bottom out, much like a mechanical board does.
the source is one of the first i started looking at

[SoulsCollective]

Datamancer (http://www.datamancer.net/keyboards/keyboards.htm), ClickyKeyboards (http://www.clickykeyboards.com/).

[RPGWiZaRD]

Datamancer (http://www.datamancer.net/keyboards/keyboards.htm), ClickyKeyboards (http://www.clickykeyboards.com/).

Just FYI, many pro gamers prefer old classic style keyboards from 2000~2003 incl me. I'm still using my Keytronic from 2001 and will be using it as long as it lasts. :yepp:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1831/img0010jop.th.jpg (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/img0010jop.jpg/) http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7210/img0009a.th.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/i/img0009a.jpg/)

[AndrewZorn]

i know, and it will sound like blasphemy, but i dont like clicky clacky ibm keyboard type stuff.

i think a lot of the appeal is nostalgia, not actually the way it works or feels. not everyone/completely, but just 'a lot'.

EDIT but 2003? is that even mechanical? using an old membrane would be an example of the above. i know my 2003 keyboard was nothing special.

[MpG]

If I'm paying over $200 for a keyboard, it's definitely going to have a numeric keypad.

Honestly, I've TRIED to get a "premium" keyboard. Because as you've said, considering the amount of money I've spent on my machine, I figure it deserves a good keyboard. But every time I go keyboard shopping, all the premium boards feel strange and awkward, and I could care less about LED's or dozens of macro keys. So years later, I'm still typing and gaming on my M$ Comfort Curve 2000, which set me back a whole $30. Sometimes I see them on sale for $20. If they ever come out with a version of this board with the option to deactivate the Start key, I'll be ready and waiting.

[EniGmA1987]

Out of those 3 choices I would go for number 2.

But I love my Razer Lycosa.

[Serra]

Those are not Xtreme keyboards.

An Xtreme keyboard is an IBM model M with a Dvorak layout. Man, I'd easily pay $150 for one of those. My current Dvorak keyboard is just a re-arranged Qwerty so I don't have those nice raised bumps in the right places and I am really going to have to mod it soon, I'm just not sure how.



i know, and it will sound like blasphemy, but i dont like clicky clacky ibm keyboard type stuff.

i think a lot of the appeal is nostalgia, not actually the way it works or feels. not everyone/completely, but just 'a lot'.


Mechanical actually does make a difference beyond nostalgia. You get the tactile feedback and can type more quickly knowing that each keystroke was fully accepted. You also get to hear the keystroke, and that can help with a somewhat hypnotizing effect to get you into a groove where you can type consistently fast rather than fast-slow-fast-slow etc.

[AndrewZorn]

a numeric keypad and macro buttons do not make it nice. i am getting rid of my g15 for this.

i am on Colemak right now myself, and will be on the new board. i switched around the keys, but it is unnecessary. in fact, when i had to type qwerty for HOURS during a linux install, i wished i hadnt rearranged the keys so i knew what i was doing... ive forgotten qwerty that fast. also youd have the bumps. HHKB and other blanks need no rearranging!

tactile feedback exists on other stuff than buckling spring. the topres are renown for a balance of feedback and relatively quiet strokes.

[lowfat]

Mechanical actually does make a difference beyond nostalgia. You get the tactile feedback and can type more quickly knowing that each keystroke was fully accepted.

Not only this but just the feeling of the keys, how quickly the depress/raise, and how little play the keys have. I've been using my Steelseries 7G for over a year now, and everytime i have to use a membrane keyboard for work I actually feel slightly disgusted. :p:

[icedtea]

I'd go with #2, but with a numeric pad (Topre Realforce103UB, because I need the numeric keypad). HHKB Pros (#1) use the same Topre capacitve keys, are compact and beautiful but for gaming I'd want more independent keys(F1-F12). Filco Majestouch(#3) keyboards use normal cherry switches (brown or black) and you'd probably find cheaper cherry switch products.

You really have to try the Topre keyboards to understand whats so good about them. They dont look special, they dont use mechanical keys, and cost over $200 which is a LOT for a "plain" QWERTY keyboard. But the capacitive keys feel great, will never have chattering problems and have (USB limited) 6-key rollover but with sequencing to enable pseudo n-key rollover ensuring every stroke recorded.

But before you buy one if you can try them out, because some dont like the feeling of the Topre switches calling them "too light"(those would probably want Black Cherries). And mechanical cherry switch keyboards are great too, but cost alot less :).

[AndrewZorn]

I unfortunately have no opportunity to test. The guys at GeekHack are helping me decide, and I've been sure for a while I want a Topre. I don't mind no numpad or F* keys or any of that, but the big reason the HHKB might not work for me is missing the bottom left key. I don't really care what it is but that is like my favorite crouch key in games. Using the Ctrl in the caps lock position feels weird. Other that that I love the HHKB tiny layout.

[Serra]

I do understand the idea of having a small footprint for your keyboard, but... I guess I have some practical concerns. For example, it is rare, but sometimes you need function keys - such as when executing "Alt+F4", attempting to enter safe mode, those mobos that make you hit "F2" to enter setup, etc. Buying a keyboard with limitations seems silly to me as the space loss is very miniscule, especially when compared with the fact that you will have to have another keyboard hanging around elsewhere to steal if/when those times arise.

The lack of arrow keys also seems silly on a gaming keyboard. You may not use them commonly now, but going without... just seems limiting.

Why are you against the Filco, if you don't mind me asking? They offer different modes, models without lettering (if that's what you're into), and their lettered models you can actually read the letters on easily in all lighting conditions (as they're white, rather than gray like some other high-end boards).

[AndrewZorn]

I do understand the idea of having a small footprint for your keyboard, but... I guess I have some practical concerns. For example, it is rare, but sometimes you need function keys - such as when executing "Alt+F4", attempting to enter safe mode, those mobos that make you hit "F2" to enter setup, etc. Buying a keyboard with limitations seems silly to me as the space loss is very miniscule, especially when compared with the fact that you will have to have another keyboard hanging around elsewhere to steal if/when those times arise.

The lack of arrow keys also seems silly on a gaming keyboard. You may not use them commonly now, but going without... just seems limiting.

Why are you against the Filco, if you don't mind me asking? They offer different modes, models without lettering (if that's what you're into), and their lettered models you can actually read the letters on easily in all lighting conditions (as they're white, rather than gray like some other high-end boards).
no, all the missing keys are used with modifier keys, like shift or ctrl, but it is fn, like a laptop keyboard (except within reach, so you dont need to move hands. thats the entire idea behind the board).

i cant remember the last time i used arrow keys in a game. and again, fn if the input specifically calls for it.

i look at the topres because of the capacitive switch, unlike the mechanical switch in the filcos. quieter, softer, lighter, more reliable... as im told.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

I have a Deck Legend ICE and it is positively amazing. I cant even type on any other keyboard anymore without being annoyed with how bad the key action is on it :rofl:

[AndrewZorn]

i like illumination... but think the decks look bad. too much light. bad font. clear casing. thats just me.

and then the fact that its only available with black switches.

[icedtea]

If you dont have problems needing to press Fn (ie: if the standard keys on the HHKBs are enough for gaming), the only problem you have will be the "missing" CTRL key on the bottom left. For that reason alone I would go with the 87UB with a more traditional layout, better to go what you are accustomed to.

But then again, you could always get the HHKB and sell it if you dont like the layout. That way, not only will you get to know if you like the HHKB but you'll also know if you like the Topre switches making your next keyboard search much easier. Im sure the HHKBs wont sell that badly, especially if used for only a short period. Well, that's if you dont mind having to shed extra cash, going through the hassle of selling the HHKB, and buying another keyboard ;)

[AndrewZorn]

the 87U probably has an even better resale value though, it's limited edition...

[Aerou]

Another one for you to maybe consider, although I have no experience with it

http://www.daskeyboard.com

http://www.daskeyboard.com/images/front-view-ult-794x395.png

[AndrewZorn]

it's basically worse than all of those, especially as it has a bug where it will miss keystokes after about 120wpm

[UNIXgod]

I have a happy hacking pro 2. Sounds like that's the one you want. Got mine used on fleabay. Best purchase ever. especially of you do alot of typing or command line stuff.

[UNIXgod]

question. who makes the second one? What model is it?

[Darth_Penguin]

question. who makes the second one? What model is it?

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se1700 :up:

[AndrewZorn]

yeah, same brand as you... same keys... better built case, standard layout (for better and worse) but no usb hub or detachable cable

you also lose a windows key with the hhkb if you use the dip to turn left windows key into modifier. not that id use a win key in games, i guess...

i care about the games so much but never play games...

[B.E.E.F.]

Datamancer (http://www.datamancer.net/keyboards/keyboards.htm), ClickyKeyboards (http://www.clickykeyboards.com/).

WOW! Love the antique style keyboards! Got any mice to match???

[Serra]

Darn this thread! I was happily contemplating between a few other models, happy to take my time... and now that I looked at that elitekeyboards website and around a bit more, I'm suddenly torn between:

Filco Majestouch Tactile Click Enthusiast ($130):
http://www.elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/th/fkbn104mcnpek_full950_th500x300.jpg

Kinesis Advantage Pro (~$400)
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-pro_met720x471.jpg

The Filco has the Cherry MX blue's I personally prefer and obviously a huge price advantage, plus it doesn't look like it's from a 60's-era Russian cosmocraft. As I'm looking to go Dvorak though I am opting for the blacked-out model, and would probably be lame and order a sheet of stickers to go with it as I hate learning without any visual guides.

But the Kinesis has those sweet curved wells and straight key orientation that can help really take things to the next level, and comes with a frigging FOOT PEDAL that I could use to quickly convert one well to a number pad and back as necessary. Plus it's reportedly more ergonomic and you can get a model where the keys have both QWERTY and DVORAK printing on them. I'm not as big a fan of Cherry brown's, but I guess I could get used to them?

Dangit Andrew! Why did you have to start this thread and make me actually contemplate dropping $400 on a keyboard?

[SoulsCollective]

Heh. I've promised myself a Datamancer custom if/when funds appear. So. Damn. Awesome.

[AndrewZorn]

Darn this thread! I was happily contemplating between a few other models, happy to take my time... and now that I looked at that elitekeyboards website and around a bit more, I'm suddenly torn between:

Filco Majestouch Tactile Click Enthusiast ($130):

Kinesis Advantage Pro (~$400)

The Filco has the Cherry MX blue's I personally prefer and obviously a huge price advantage, plus it doesn't look like it's from a 60's-era Russian cosmocraft. As I'm looking to go Dvorak though I am opting for the blacked-out model, and would probably be lame and order a sheet of stickers to go with it as I hate learning without any visual guides.

But the Kinesis has those sweet curved wells and straight key orientation that can help really take things to the next level, and comes with a frigging FOOT PEDAL that I could use to quickly convert one well to a number pad and back as necessary. Plus it's reportedly more ergonomic and you can get a model where the keys have both QWERTY and DVORAK printing on them. I'm not as big a fan of Cherry brown's, but I guess I could get used to them?

Dangit Andrew! Why did you have to start this thread and make me actually contemplate dropping $400 on a keyboard?
i was looking at the browns because of the noise of blue, and i heard brown is a good halfway between blue and black in terms of games.

first, look into colemak if you havent started with dvorak. colemak is better, but not better enough to get existing dvorakkers to switch
also, blank keys are better for learning and using diff layouts. printed ones you feel compelled to switch... and looking at the keys, even out of frustration, hurts you. if you want a visual aid i would print the keymap and hang it above your monitor.

i dont really like the space age boards... something THAT radical might be novel and even better for your hands but gives you NO chance of using someome else's computer (and on that note, grab "portable colemak" or whatever is on their website, a prog you can run that doesnt install anything or change layout or require admin priv)

mind as well get a datahand if you are willing to go that far:
http://www.datahand.com/images/Resize%20of%20DEKonLap72rgb.jpg
look at the 'keys'... mouse is integrated... NO real movement

started the same way for me too. saw elitekeyboards, the notorious "mechanical keyboard guide"... then posted on geekhack looking for advice. went from laughing at a $244 keyboard with only 60 keys to... actually about to buy one...

ALSO yeah i started with the filco and could barely justify the 130 but eventually got worked up to a topre... here is the 10 page thread where I havent even decided yet, in case you need some advice:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=110693

i just realize that i with most other people can deal without caps locke, dedicated F1-F12, Home/End cluster, numpad, arrows... again they all exist on hhkb but through combos
so getting rid of all that makes the hhkb just look sooo nice, just wish it had ctrl in the traditional spot, or at least something there

the funny part is the first post, advising just to spend $370ish and get both, is probably the truth. the guys on that forum seem to have more money in keyboards than their entire computers, a few giving me advice actually OWNED all the keyboards in my comparison.

[Serra]

first, look into colemak if you havent started with dvorak. colemak is better, but not better enough to get existing dvorakkers to switch
also, blank keys are better for learning and using diff layouts. printed ones you feel compelled to switch... and looking at the keys, even out of frustration, hurts you. if you want a visual aid i would print the keymap and hang it above your monitor.

i dont really like the space age boards... something THAT radical might be novel and even better for your hands but gives you NO chance of using someome else's computer (and on that note, grab "portable colemak" or whatever is on their website, a prog you can run that doesnt install anything or change layout or require admin priv)


I think I'll stick with Dvorak, but thanks. My reasoning is twofold - I do have some Dvorak experience, and I have a belief that if any alternative has a realistic chance of ever overtaking QWERTY, it will be it's closest runner up. Thus although I might otherwise have gone Colemak, I must go dvorak out of principle. For the blank keys (assuming I went with the Filco) I think my plan going forward would be to order the stickers (which, I know, is lame) and strip them off keys as I get used to the layout again (I was never 100% on dvorak). I know blank letter typing forces it on you a bit faster, but I would be using this as a work keyboard so on occasion I might not have the time to fight with it.

The idea of the Kinesis ruining me for anything else had crossed my mind, and is somewhat of a concern. Fortunately my work involves local travel, which requires a laptop, and I enjoy using a laptop when watching TV... so I at least have another source of "regular" keyboard use. Whether the shifting between them would reduce my potential effectiveness on a single platform remains to be seen. That foot pedal that lets you turn one set of keys to numbers is pretty tempting though (I do a fair amount of number work).

Ultimately my main driver is the ability to type faster. My wife does not understand this as I can already hum along at 90wpm with accuracy and peak over 100 on somewhat sub-optimal boards (I thank an addiction to text-based gaming in my formative years), but I can tell when I am going at it that I have pretty well hit the ninety-fifth percentile in terms of my personal physical ability and I find it frustrating. Of course, the fear of losing my QWERTY speed and not gaining it back/exceeding it in an alternative key layout or alternative keyboard (ie. the Kinesis) is definitely there as I have no intentions of addicting myself to text-based gaming again.

[SoulsCollective]

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Don't you just sometimes feel an overwhelming urge to return to Flood Control Dam #3 and say hello to the sailors there?

[M31]

Some of those small footprint keyboards look cute, but if you are used to typing on a normal size keyboard, they can really screw up your touch typing, at least I find so.

I can type pretty fast and accurately on regular sized keyboards when I want to, but going to my smaller lap top keyboard I really have to slow down.

I've seen the keyboards with blank keys before too, how much of a pose is that :) But its true, once you have been using a keyboard for many years, you really don't have to look down at the key letters or numbers much, but I don't think I'd go that far.

I've got a couple of Logitech G15's and a G19 and also a G13, they are my idea of Xtreme keyboards, though I realise they are not everyone's idea of that :p:

I like others tried the older Microsoft split ergonomic keyboards, but they dont seem to have taken off, ugly things too ... IMHO.

[AndrewZorn]

Some of those small footprint keyboards look cute, but if you are used to typing on a normal size keyboard, they can really screw up your touch typing, at least I find so.

I can type pretty fast and accurately on regular sized keyboards when I want to, but going to my smaller lap top keyboard I really have to slow down.

I've seen the keyboards with blank keys before too, how much of a pose is that :) But its true, once you have been using a keyboard for many years, you really don't have to look down at the key letters or numbers much, but I don't think I'd go that far.

I've got a couple of Logitech G15's and a G19 and also a G13, they are my idea of Xtreme keyboards, though I realise they are not everyone's idea of that :p:

I like others tried the older Microsoft split ergonomic keyboards, but they dont seem to have taken off, ugly things too ... IMHO.
it is small footprint but the keys are the same size. it takes away stuff that has nothing to do with normal touch typing and makes it more possible to touch type them by keeping everything within reach of the home row.

think of the benefit of a keyboard 8" or so shorter than a normal keyboard, or more like 1" shorter than a G15... how close you could keep the mouse to the right of the keyboard, desk look, being able to take board with you.

the blank keys i like because it looks cooler/more uniform, i dont need the labels anyway and it saves me from having to rearrange them, and it further stops others from using my comp

i have a G15 myself and it is novel and within the last couple months i finally utilized the LCD screen, but it isnt close in terms of quality to these.

[Serra]

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Don't you just sometimes feel an overwhelming urge to return to Flood Control Dam #3 and say hello to the sailors there?

It Is Pitch Dark by MC Frontalot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nigRT2KmCE) :D

Nah, I have never actually played Zork. I was on the MUD train. I additively played a Diku-based MUD called Dawn of Time (DoT) [anyone who has ever played this codebase, PM me], and check in on it's successor on occasion. As a blatent plug for it, anyone who wants to can connect to darkeningsun.org, port 5678.. just send me a PM first and I'll run you through the basics of this particular MUD and will make sure someone good takes you through the in-game learning steps.

[M31]

it is small footprint but the keys are the same size. it takes away stuff that has nothing to do with normal touch typing and makes it more possible to touch type them by keeping everything within reach of the home row.

think of the benefit of a keyboard 8" or so shorter than a normal keyboard, or more like 1" shorter than a G15... how close you could keep the mouse to the right of the keyboard, desk look, being able to take board with you.


True, but I can get my G13 even closer to my mouse if that's what you mean, gaming wise? Just shove my G19 or G15 out of the way :)

Seriously, apart from the G13 ... I really need a full sized qwerty with built in num pad.


the blank keys I like because it looks cooler/more uniform, i dont need the labels anyway and it saves me from having to rearrange them, and it further stops others from using my comp

It does look cool, but it wont stop others on your blank keyboard if they can touch type as well as you :)


i have a G15 myself and it is novel and within the last couple months i finally utilized the LCD screen, but it isnt close in terms of quality to these.

I'm only teasing you mate, what you are doing is indeed very extreme, many folk condemn me for my extreme flight simulation controllers and idea's :)

What I'm saying is ... its good to discuss anything extreme in Computer enthusiast circles and we should all learn from each other.

I'd like to own one of those black blank keyboards and just see how well I could type :up:

Hmmm, just thought, with my G19 ... I can have any colour key I want ... what if I choose black so its the same as its black keys?

BRB ... gotta go try this :)

[M31]

LOL ... you can still just make out the etched key letters in a lightly lit room, no pose value points for me then :p:

But does anyone remember this?

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/keyboard-13.jpg

Does anyone even remember E-Mule?

That keyboard did eventually go on sale fairly recently as I re-call, and was about as much use as an ash tray on a Motorcycle, well over £1400 in the UK?

I feel sorry for the developers, they must have poured millions into it ... seriously, development like that does not come easy.

LOL.

[AndrewZorn]

True, but I can get my G13 even closer to my mouse if that's what you mean, gaming wise? Just shove my G19 or G15 out of the way :)

Seriously, apart from the G13 ... I really need a full sized qwerty with built in num pad.

I'm only teasing you mate, what you are doing is indeed very extreme, many folk condemn me for my extreme flight simulation controllers and idea's :)

What I'm saying is ... its good to discuss anything extreme in Computer enthusiast circles and we should all learn from each other.

I'd like to own one of those black blank keyboards and just see how well I could type :up:

Hmmm, just thought, with my G19 ... I can have any colour key I want ... what if I choose black so its the same as its black keys?

BRB ... gotta go try this :)
is the G19 that customizeable? i wish my G9 mouse would ACTUALLY let me choose whatever possible color i wanted, just not the predefined "over 200" combinations of blue and green.


It does look cool, but it wont stop others on your blank keyboard if they can touch type as well as you :)
+colemak... i think not... they could not even hunt and peck
but thats not a real concern
but it is neat

EDIT and yeah they are still for sale, very few produced, $1500+...
its not as good looking as the original mock-up, the screens are tiny and centered (looks like what it is, a screen on a key, not a keyboard of screens)
but apparently they nailed the customization aspects
http://media.techeblog.com/images/maximus_1.jpg

[YMAA]

Sticking with my Razer Tarantula until it dies. I love the key action on it...the travel of a notebook with the key size of a desktop. Soooo comfortable to type on.

[M31]

is the G19 that customizeable? i wish my G9 mouse would ACTUALLY let me choose whatever possible color i wanted, just not the predefined "over 200" combinations of blue and green.


Now you are being deeply sarcastic :) Thats OK, it has the full pallete as far as I understand ... but so does your mouse already? so that's fun and cool, right ... LOL

[[XC] Synthetickiller]

I <3 my ibm trackpoint since I never have to move my hands to control a mouse. Its not as hardcore as these, but then again, I HATE mice.

I can actually play FPS better on a trackpoint than with a mouse any day of the week. Go figure.

Those are some awesome, albeit, expensive keyboards.

[RAW-Raptor22]

i know, and it will sound like blasphemy, but i dont like clicky clacky ibm keyboard type stuff.

i think a lot of the appeal is nostalgia, not actually the way it works or feels. not everyone/completely, but just 'a lot'.

EDIT but 2003? is that even mechanical? using an old membrane would be an example of the above. i know my 2003 keyboard was nothing special.

This keyboard is an old Gateway 2000 (early 1998, before they dropped the "2000" name) model, and they keys are actually very quiet for a mechanical board. I like the feedback, I also have a Dell Quietkey thats very similar. :)

[AndrewZorn]

Now you are being deeply sarcastic :) Thats OK, it has the full pallete as far as I understand ... but so does your mouse already? so that's fun and cool, right ... LOL
no im not... i thought the g19 had like 3 colors, but not full custom,
and the g9 advertises "OVER 200!" colors but really just unnoticeably different shades of red, pink, green, and blue. no white...

[M31]

no im not... i thought the g19 had like 3 colors, but not full custom,
and the g9 advertises "OVER 200!" colors but really just unnoticeably different shades of red, pink, green, and blue. no white...

Over 200? wow!!! I like dat mouse already :)

Oh, OK.

In that case, the G19 offers lots of lovely pretty colours too then, I'm just not sure how many more? :)

LOL

:up:

[M31]

no im not... i thought the g19 had like 3 colors, but not full custom,
and the g9 advertises "OVER 200!" colors but really just unnoticeably different shades of red, pink, green, and blue. no white...

White? OMG, thats incredible :)

Wait a moment ... wait just a cotten picking moment there, Muskey!!!

I'm sure my G19 can do white text too, as well as display white illuminated keys too?, what I'm now going to type in white text on a white background is a famous poem by the famous poet, Arthur Two Sheds Jackson ... if you can scroll down and see The End, then this test has been a success :)













































The End.

Hey, it worked :)

[B.E.E.F.]

no im not... i thought the g19 had like 3 colors, but not full custom,
and the g9 advertises "OVER 200!" colors but really just unnoticeably different shades of red, pink, green, and blue. no white...

Technically white isn't a color. It's a shade, so they can get away with that.

[Rucker]

Not only this but just the feeling of the keys, how quickly the depress/raise, and how little play the keys have. I've been using my Steelseries 7G for over a year now, and everytime i have to use a membrane keyboard for work I actually feel slightly disgusted. :p:

I can't stand the 7G. Mine is sitting on a shelf in the box. I prefer membrane over scissor keys, for sure. And since I'm the HP commodity manager for aftermarket keyboards, I get to try a lot of different ones.

[Machinus]

What makes these better than an eclipse? I have I and II and I love them.

[Xoulz]

I have the Déck Legend keyboard (link HERE (http://www.deckkeyboards.com/product_info.php?products_id=96)).

Made with Cherry switches and is phenomenal. I had a few Filco's, but wanted illumination and don't regret a cent ($169).


I'll post pictures when I get a chance.

[AndrewZorn]

Technically white isn't a color. It's a shade, so they can get away with that.
SAY THE ARTISTS!

white is a reflection of light that registers differently to the human eye.
if i can buy a white ________, then white is a color.

EDIT and lately I was thinking the HHKB AND the filco, but have changed this to a model M (+HHKB) for price reasons (if i win auction), and it might be more different than the HHKB. and working on getting a black alps based dell off ebay now.


What makes these better than an eclipse? I have I and II and I love them.
basically everything you don't see.
eclipse keys push a rubber bubble down to make an electrical contact.
mechanical switches last longer and have better feel
the topre boards still have a rubber dome but a much better one, and dont require contact to register the key press

[M31]

What about Ultra Violet, Infra-Red Keyboards?

Even if we cant see in that spectrum of light?

How in the name of God, are we going to communicate with ET, unless we have Gamma ray, keyboards?

[demonkevy666]

What about Ultra Violet, Infra-Red Keyboards?

Even if we cant see in that spectrum of light?

How in the name of God, are we going to communicate with ET, unless we have Gamma ray, keyboards?

you mean something like the

I-Tech Virtual Laser Keyboard

it's no keyboard at all really :)

[Serra]

I just wanted to pop in and say that I received my "Italian Red" Filco "Otaku" keyboard with Cherry MX blue switches and blanked-out keys today - it is a simply amazing device. One thing the pictures don't convey is just how much weight the thing has - you could kill someone with this thing. It is a beautiful device, and the audible clicks are really doing an excellent job of highlighting key combinations that I apparently lag at slightly.

Another thing that I found was not properly conveyed via the Internet was just how loud it really is - I would say it's about identical to an selectric typewriter, minus the low humming noise those things used to make of course. I'm using mine in my cubicle right now and have asked my neighbors if they find it annoyingly loud, and so far the answer is "no", but we'll see. I'm prepared to take this guy home for use and purchase a version with brown switches for the office if need be. Though, it does make it much harder to say you are working on writing a report or something when you're really just goofing off on the Internet.

[AndrewZorn]

if you wanted loud heavy well built and clicky why not a model m?
though i cant say i cannot avoid really really wanting the brown filco


heres the news report from me
on the way (and unfortunately im not done):

Dell AT101W (alps switches, $15 shipped from Ebay)
IBM Model M 1391401 (so far, but the auction isnt over)
[possible] Compaq MX11800 (cherry brown switches, but for cheap)
[possible] Realforce 101 (but its kind of expensive for a second Topre seeing as how i am getting...)

http://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/th/pdkb400w_iso_th500x300.jpg

not -exactly- what i want[ed], but the savings on the super deal for a 1-week old one kind of counters my preferred color choices. i had finally convinced myself i could pay $244+shipping for a 60-key keyboard, too. i could be just as happy with blank white as black, but marked white... especially when not using qwerty, and am going to swap some key functions with the dip switches (basically only a few labels will be meaningful)... just looks not as good. but hey, maybe ill change my mind when it gets here.

i have been thinking though, since the savings, that maybe now i should get the brown (maaaaybe blue but i basically got the model m to see if i could be switched over to clicky, but because of its size, i cant get it shipped here to iraq unless i want to mail it back home 2mos before i leave, and will have to wait until i get home to even see it... as with the dell) (now look back before the parenthesis) filco. it was my original choice and still looks like an overall winner. if nothing else it would be different from the hhkb.

EDIT but i review your posts and see that you WISH for a model m, just with dvorak layout? i mean, the markings wont line up, but you must never look at them, having chosen the otaku version of the filco... why not just get one off ebay for $20? (but, don't bid on any, it might be the one i am after)

EDIT2 and ps, after 3wks of colemak, i am already at 60-70wpm. the rolls you can do with mostly home row keys are just awesome.

[Serra]

Update: My "n" key is dead on my new keyboard. Worked for about an hour or so, then simply stopped functioning. I guess I'll be testing out elite keyboards RMA policy. I really hope they are able to stock more Filco Otaku keyboards though, I was hoping to use mine for a week or two and decide then whether I wanted another with blue switches or brown... but they seem to only have the blue left. I guess I can buy a regular one and some blank keys, but that just adds to the cost of an already expensive keyboard,


if you wanted loud heavy well built and clicky why not a model m?
though i cant say i cannot avoid really really wanting the brown filco


A few reasons that all came together made me choose the considerably more expensive Filco over a model M. For one, not all model M clones are made the same these days and it's just not worth my time to get annoyed at a keyboard (which is ironic, considering I'm now RMAing one). Another is that I wanted black keys. A third is that blank keys were also highly desirable. Put together, it was worth the $130. I will admit that the additional $35 for the colour was questionable, but I find having keys a different colour than the board itself gives you yet another way to home in on the keys using only your peripheral vision (I admit it, that's a weak justification)... and yeah, I liked the colour.

I guess what I'm saying is that while there's nothing wrong with the model M really, I wanted the Rolls instead of the Cadillac.

To address the question relating to Dvorak key overlays you asked later in the post - there is a very strong chance that I will never get around to ordering overlays and I know from experience that when I really just can't find a key rather than trying 20 wrong answers I do tend just look for it (which screws you up with a QWERTY layout facing you). I know you shouldn't look down, but sometimes you just have to when you're learning a new layout, you know?

Still, I wonder how hard it would really be for someone to mod the keyboard with a QWERTY | Dvorak switch? MS's language bar is complete garbage. I think I can say I would pay $225 for a true Dvorak Filco keyboard... a full $60 over the already inflated retail of the red model. Maybe this is a project for me to take on another day... or more likely an opportunity for some enterprising chap with a soldering iron and an understanding of PCB's that I lack.



on the way (and unfortunately im not done):

Dell AT101W (alps switches, $15 shipped from Ebay)
IBM Model M 1391401 (so far, but the auction isnt over)
[possible] Compaq MX11800 (cherry brown switches, but for cheap)
[possible] Realforce 101 (but its kind of expensive for a second Topre seeing as how i am getting...)


Wow, that's quite a list, even if 2 are only possible. It really looks like you're giving all the kinds of switches worth trying a shot. I would be very interested to see a good write-up on all of them if it works out.



EDIT2 and ps, after 3wks of colemak, i am already at 60-70wpm. the rolls you can do with mostly home row keys are just awesome.

Oh good. Just get 50% faster and you'll be at my everyday speed on QWERTY :p:.

I would be able to get behind Colemak, but my gut is that if there will ever be a successor to outdated Qwerty it will come from the already well-established (by comparison) Dvorak standard and any other alternative layouts will just cloud the issue.

[AndrewZorn]

yes, but if anyone goes to look at remotely poplular layouts, almost every time dvorak is mentioned, colemak is mentioned at being better... i just have hopes that if there is any research done for some mass-switch over that the benefits of colemak will be recognized over the .1% of the population that uses dvorak as being better than the .01% that uses colemak.

and while a hardware colemak keyboard would be nice for initial setup (they said it would be easier on linux!) or portability then fine, but software layout changes work just as well, you bought the otaku version so you can't look anyway, and i only looked at the keys during like my first day of learning. you should try it... i wish i didnt even look at them then. even if its a as frustrating as trying keys until you find it (like i did), then it will only be more clear the next time. my "cold-turkey" method worked out pretty well.

but 90% of keyboards (not the hhkb or realforce........) all the letter keys are the same shape anyway. pull and rearrange them!

EDIT and PS i wasnt suggesting that my current colemak speed is faster than what i was on qwerty, just talking about short-term progress.

and my list/experience is nothing compared to they guys at geekhack that have 3 topre boards, 5 model Ms, a few filcos, some other cherry boards, alps, etc... its amazing, some of the collections.

EDIT and yeah, i completely understand the filco purchase. like i said, for a long time i wanted one more than the hhkb, and i still really want one as a close second. even after i chose my white and printed hhkb (which i still have some regrets about the color... i feel like it wont match anything, and that having wrong labels everywhere will kind of be fake... but when i got it for around the price of a filco, how can you complain? it is worth the price of a filco just to get one keyboard in a different color?) ... ... ... i still have a great desire for the 87key filco in brown.

which, if you refer to the brown otaku, they haven't had those in a WHILE...

[Easybeat]

This could probably go in the Ghetto Mods thread but its an Xtreme Keyboard. I build Mame machines and the cheapest way of getting inputs into it is a keyboard hack.

This is an old keyboard with the encoder stripped out and a veroboard with terminals waiting to be soldered to it.
http://img2.pict.com/b2/97/f8/1632066/0/hack2.jpg

This is one wired up inside my Mame control panel for admin functions.
http://img2.pict.com/2f/57/1e/1632067/0/hack1.jpg

And here is the Control panel, the admin buttons are the 6 at the back.
http://img2.pict.com/0d/d1/77/1632065/0/cp.jpg

I use an iPac encoder (approx £30) for the main player function buttons and joysticks but the keyboard hack lets me use a few buttons extra for little extra cost and not much work:-
Escape
Tab
Enter
5 (Credit Player 1)
6 (Credit Player 2)
P (Pause)

In theory you can use every key possible, I use a small utility called Keyhook that helps map out which 2 wires give a certain key.

[Serra]

^ That is awesome. Do you build Mame machines as a profession or a hobby easybeat? If it's a profession you have an awesome job and if it's a hobby you do a really good job at it.


I received a reply from EliteKeyboards about my dead Filco today. While it's understandable, it's not quite what I had hoped for. Keeping in mind I had basically said "I want an RMA because after testing the keyboard, I have found the "n" key does not work".



I'm sorry you're having trouble with your new keyboard. Would you please
explain what you mean by "does not work"? My records show that this
keyboard passed testing here before it was shipped to you.


I mean... I don't know how to respond to this in a way that doesn't sound condescending. I'm sure that it did pass QC (it worked for me for about 20 min), but I'm not sure how to clarify the idea that a key on a keyboard is no longer functional. I think that's a concept you either get or you're not in a position where you can legally make decisions for yourself. I guess that instead of being completely non-functional it could insert some other character instead, but that seems like it's equally worth creating an RMA for.


Edit: As a side-note, I have learned something from this experience. I highly recommend that if anyone else spends $170 on a keyboard they test it at home for a few days before taking it to the office. People laugh loudly and for a long time at you when you take a brand new, highly expensive keyboard in to work and it's effectively DoA.

[CyberDruid]

I have the Deck Legend. It's my favorite keyboard even better than my 1994 Type M IBM Clicky. I also have a diNovo Edge and love it to death..the keys are perfect. It's thin and light and perfect for couch surfing, mousepad isn't bad either.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

Yeah I was wondering why when I mentioned the legend I got instantly shot down, its seriously amazing and its getting better every day I use it as I break it in. My typing has easily gotten twice as fast, and I dont fully touch type either (kind of a butchered touch typing with 3 fingers on each had lol)

[AndrewZorn]

Edit: As a side-note, I have learned something from this experience. I highly recommend that if anyone else spends $170 on a keyboard they test it at home for a few days before taking it to the office. People laugh loudly and for a long time at you when you take a brand new, highly expensive keyboard in to work and it's effectively DoA.
this type of thing happens to me all the time. "LOL MY $5 KEYBOARD IS JUST AS GOOD AND IT ACTUALLY WORKS". the one time.

-

i think the legend is downplayed right now because of what it is. deck has not done anything special to the cherry black switch. i have not used one, but it is a high-force key with NO click or bump for feedback. they are great for button-mashing games but difficult to defend for typing use (especially from an ergonomic standpoint).

i still want a board with cherry black. i just dont like the illumination style or clear housing, font, or even the layout of the deck (what bothers me most is the ~ and the 1 etc). it is 100% gaming oriented. i was sure i would get one of those or a filco in black, but a lot of people think that the black alps are the best gaming switch too... which i got in my $15-shipped-new-in-box Dell AT101 (with no crazy layout). plenty of cherry boards with blacks for considerably less with a standard layout, too.

[Serra]

I wanted to update the status of my EliteKeyboards RMA. One I clarified what I meant by "the 'n' key does not work", they responded back within about 30 minutes (which was crazy, since I wrote to them around 8pm at night) and they told me they would have an RMA shipped out the next morning with a free return shipping label included for the defective model.

Fast response time, they'll ship first, and free return ship - that's the golden trifecta for RMA's. Excellent service :up:.


Oh, and take this with a grain of salt, but EliteKeyboards also claims that of the >500 Filco keyboards they have sold, I will be RMA #3. If true, that is an awesomely low failure rate.

[AndrewZorn]

they do have a low failure rate. 3/500 sounds especially low though.

[Easybeat]

^ That is awesome. Do you build Mame machines as a profession or a hobby easybeat? If it's a profession you have an awesome job and if it's a hobby you do a really good job at it.


Thanks Serra, its strictly a hobby that I limit to friends and family. I just wish I got paid to mess around like that in my real job as I find it enjoyable.

[ScorpionHD]

This is a cool idea I think but the price is just not practical!

Think about MACROs
I present to you the Optimus Maximus:
http://store.artlebedev.com/computer_add-ons/optimus-maximus/

And the future is Optimus Tactus:
http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus-tactus/

[AndrewZorn]

that and the keyboard itself sucks
it looks cool but you shouldnt be looking

and the second looks cool but typing with no feedback would be terrible
like a laser keyboard or touchscreen

[AndrewZorn]

oooooh snap

so guess what i just got also
another "for that price i can deal with it" purchase

http://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/th/FKB104MEB_full_th500x300.jpg
Filco Majestouch Tactile Touch (Brown Cherry) 104-key Non-NKRO

at $100 BIN with a $40 wrist-rest and free shipping it was a good deal but not what i wanted, but he dropped it to $80 BIN free shipping and that is too good to give up. here's the logic i used:

$80
- $15 for what elite would charge for shipping
- $6.40 bing.com cashback
- $20, lets say, is what i would pay for the nicest wrist-rest in the world (shipped)

so $36.40 for a $100 keyboard
not the preferred minor touches (tenkeyless, NKRO) but still
i almost got myself to spend this much on a used compaq MX11800

[AndrewZorn]

I don't see the need to retype a post when I just did this duzie on Geekhack, and so I paste the following:



Okay, bringing it back for closure. Ended up with the following actually-in-my-hands a couple of days ago:

Used (like-new, no shiny keys, box and all, etc) HHKB Pro2 white, printed
New Filco 104key Brown NON-NKRO

both were too good of deals to get the 'better' versions of each, in my mind.


HHKB Pro 2 --------------

So anyway I've been using the HHKB for the majority of the time just out of principle. Very nice, very crisp, looks awesome with the lettering to my surprise... so bold, defined, clear. The layout itself took maybe a day of getting used to, mainly backspace, but just starting to get used to taking advantage of home/end and stuff.

Build quality and all seems great, I think the plastic plate thing is something to keep it light and the halves are not supposed to match up.

Changed my mind on the DIP switches... I thought for sure I would want Mac mode, and I still do. But switching Alt and Fn was a mistake... how does anyone properly use home/end having to reach with left pinky to start using them? All my pre-planning was useless when I actually started trying to use it like that. Still can't figure out some things... like, the right Alt/meta don't seem to do as I expected all the time. Seems like the right Alt will send CTRL+ALT sometimes? Or was that the right meta? Can't remember how it works since I have been switching back and forth.

Arrow keys and all the other stuff not as bad as I expected. Ctrl is nice, but I haven't played games yet. Part of my decision to switch Alt and meta in the first place, though, was to be able to hit Alt (old meta) with my thumb on WASD (/WARS).

Still have no idea why my index finger though has Fn keys for keys that already exist... especially without combos, like / and -... while my right pinky has to do so much work!

Form factor is better than I even hoped, it's great having the keyboard centered with the mouse off to the right. Trying to figure out how to get the proper desk space to use my 104-long Filco wrist-rest under my HHKB AND the mouse at the same time, as that would be great.

The actual keys/switches/typing part, yes, it feels great. So much more exact than my G15 (that before sending it home, tried one last time, felt kind of nice, like tapping on a pillow, but hard to say I would PREFER it). BUT, after studying my G15 in wait of the key keyboards, I was surprised to find out how much less different the Topre is than a membrane. Heresy, I know, but I feel like the Topre really is like rubber-dome STYLE, but the best of the best rubber dome ever. I can't feel a tactility point yet. They key seems to do the same "up or down, no between" action as the G15. Keys don't wobble, don't mush when stuck down, etc, but it still FEELS like there's rubber underneath each key. Not in a bad way, just not what I expected.


Filco 104key Brown Non-NKRO --------------

At first, I took the Filco out of the box only to do a rollover test (with disappointing results) and basic functionality tests. For some reason it is VERY picky about USB ports though, I thought it was broken for a long time.

Felt weird, little bumps in the keystroke, keycaps having used the HHKB felt SUPER EL CHEAPO, lettering didn't look as nice, etc. It is heavier, more of a heft to it.

Why is my Filco logo all scratched when I look at it in direct light?

Still too paranoid to put on the red Esc (or flip the HHKB spacebar) even though I have taken apart my G15 and other keyboards plenty.

So I put it back in box to remain pristine for a while.

...

But yesterday I was unexpectedly forced to downsize here in Iraq and had to pack up all my nice new packaging. This was very hard for me. Waterproofed the boxes and all before letting them go. So the Filco sat in my laptop bag, I'm taking it home with me! No way I went through all the trouble to not get to use it for X (XX maybe even) months. The Dell AT101, on the other hand...

So anyway today I got curious again and took the Filco back out. Combination of making sure it was okay in the box and all... easily moved the HHKB aside. Time to start actually trying to type on the Filco.

And wow.
I really hate to say it.
But I did a 5min test and this post up to here with the Brown switches, and I am amazed.

They are so light. I can feel the little bumps and after only a few minutes I am only bottoming out half the time. It feels great (though I am offcenter again from the desk, and maybe my arm only hurts because of this, but my fingers are not tired, nor were they with the HHKB, then again, the G15 never really gave me problems either).

It's like the Filco has character where the HHKB is soulless perfection. I make myself keep going to type more on the Filco instead of just getting the job done, and rolling along for a few seconds without bottoming out is awesome. The layout seems wrong after a couple days on the HHKB, and I don't need about half the board, but software can kind of fix that...

Non-linear note: going back up to edit some stuff about the HHKB, my opinion kind of only solidifies as I go on...

Not that I think such a test is very scientific, because of the human factors, but I don't know which I type faster on, but the clicks of the Filco make it feel like I am getting more done. It also feels more 'fun' and like I am involved more. It ALSO does feel significantly different than a membrane (see stuff above on the Topre switch if you skipped it). When I was tapping keys individually at first they felt cheap and crunchy, but when you type on all of them, it is a much nicer feeling.


Anyway, so now I am TORN between that which I already own! Not enough space on this tiny desk for both. Each has its merits, and I am blown away by the Filco even though I spent 1/3 as much as I did on the HHKB (even thinking it was perhaps frivolous, until I used it). I won't say (admit?) that it is better than the HHKB, and I definitely love the HHKB's softness and quietness and layout and look, but the Filco is DEFINITELY not going to remain perfect in-box, nor will the HHKB become something I don't use every day...

OH MAN, this is not easy...

TL,DR: the HHKB is just as described, perfect. The Filco feels totally different and actually lives up to the descriptor of "MECHANICAL" keyboard.

[mcmeat51]

Just my opinion, But I really just dont see why anyone would want to shell out loads of dosh for a keyboard. I mean FFS its a freggin KEYBOARD!!! I use a wireless BENQ that I bought 3 years ago and have replaced the batteries once when they werent even dead. Its got a cool shape and the keys feel nice... and it cost me just over a tenner!! why dont u just save your money and spend it on what actually matters like a better cpu or case etc?

[Gurr]

Being that Input devices are how we interact with computers; I find that keyboards and mice are some of the most crucial and when you shell out the money for them, they allow you to type fast, more consistent and last longer.

And no offense. The case is probably the least important piece as it just holds the hardware, you can literally do without a case if you really want to.

[AndrewZorn]

i will use your examples and obviously mainstream tastes against you. but ill be nice and restrict it ONLY to your computer.

you mentioned spending money on something that matters, like a better CPU or case?

CPU - outdated in 2yrs, marginal difference for high cost increase
Case - you almost never touch it!

and my examples of things im sure so many are okay with,

Monitor - still I/O, a way of interacting with your computer, just sight instead of touch, and out instead of in, but still easy to justify as costing way more? also short lifespan, technologically.
Mouse - $100 GAMING MOUSE that's just a different sensor with way more DPI than you need in a new cheap plastic shell. some CAN be nice, and ARE... again, I/O is very worth it, because it is how you interact with the computer.

not that i dont spend a lot on ALL of the above - - - but my eyes have been opened into the fact that a keyboard isn't just some mandatory device that you can skim off an old dell and think you are "done"... well, at least, if youre the type of person that has a custom computer and appreciate parts in the first place

i mean think about how many millions of times you touch those keys and how many times your liquid cooling induced overclock actually matters


Just my opinion, But I really just dont see why anyone would want to shell out loads of dosh for a screen. I mean FFS its a freggin MONITOR!!! if you can see the text and it looks okay then it is fine. i have a hannspree and it's been great!

Just my opinion, But I really just dont see why anyone would want to shell out loads of dosh for a video card. I mean FFS its a freggin VIDEO CARD!!! you get 10% better performance for a couple years then have to buy all over again.

Just my opinion, But I really just dont see why anyone would want to shell out loads of dosh for a case. I mean FFS its a freggin CASE!!! i put all my stuff in some no-name brand tower and it holds it just as well as any other, and that's all it needs to do.

[SoulsCollective]

Just my opinion, But I really just dont see why anyone would want to shell out loads of dosh for a keyboard. I mean FFS its a freggin KEYBOARD!!! I use a wireless BENQ that I bought 3 years ago and have replaced the batteries once when they werent even dead. Its got a cool shape and the keys feel nice... and it cost me just over a tenner!! why dont u just save your money and spend it on what actually matters like a better cpu or case etc?
How often do you touch your CPU or your case? Can you actually meaningfully interact with your PC without using your keyboard? How many hours a day do you spend typing out documents or coding?

What you do with your PC will dictate where you spend your money. Plenty of folks here write massive long documents, or thousands of lines of code, and will hammer out many thousands of words per day on their keyboard. In that situation, your low-end wireless jobbie with plastic shell and rubber domes, would probably fail after the first year or so. In addition, if you are using your keyboard that much, why not make it a more enjoyable and productive experience?

I don't work with text as much as some folks here, and I'm definitely a PC gamer out for best FPS, but even I can see the benefit in getting a nice keyboard. My MS Wireless Ergonomic 7000 isn't top-end as far as build quality goes (compared to some of the boards mentioned here), but it's fantastically comfortable to type on, even for hours, and the keys are laid out exactly where my hands feel they should be. The board cost me AUD $110, and a year and a half later I still consider it money well spent.

[AndrewZorn]

admittedly i wish i were one of these people that had to use my keyboard a lot
its nearly depressing how little i really have to do or say with a keyboard outside of some forums and occasional games

[Serra]

Just my opinion, But I really just dont see why anyone would want to shell out loads of dosh for a keyboard. I mean FFS its a freggin KEYBOARD!!! I use a wireless BENQ that I bought 3 years ago and have replaced the batteries once when they werent even dead. Its got a cool shape and the keys feel nice... and it cost me just over a tenner!! why dont u just save your money and spend it on what actually matters like a better cpu or case etc?

... and a Toyota is as good as a BMW.
... and the food at the local diner is as good as any 5 diamond restaurant.
... and integrated speakers are as good as a discrete systems.
etc.

It's a difference in class and experience. If you have never had the experience you are allowed to feel that way, but give the refined option a shot before you snub it.

[JaccoW]

A nice review of 7 mechanical keyboards: Professional Mechanical Keyboard Comparison - Benchmarkreviews.com (http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=376&Itemid=65)

I have been using a G15 v1 keyboard for more than three years now, but it is slowly dying. screen hasn't been working for almost a year now and the leds sometimes flicker.
At work one of the older pc's has what I believe to be an old IBM model M keyboard attached to it (see if I can get my boss to part with it. :D) and it has a really nice feel to it.

I was interested in the Deck Legend (http://www.deckkeyboards.com/) and Das keyboard professional (http://www.daskeyboard.com/), since I have a tendency to really 'hammer' the keys.
The Deck legend looks nice, but I would want to try it first and I don't really like the font. But the leds are really nice.
Das Keyboard probably takes a while to find around here.

I did like the small lcd screen of the G15, so maybe i'll get a G13 (http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/keyboards/keyboard/devices/5123&cl=nl,nl) for gaming and that. :D

Does anyone know if the issues with the Das Keyboard, such as letter fading and a maximum of 6 simultaneous keystrokes has been fixed?

[AndrewZorn]

letter fading on black keys with white text is GOING to happen unless it is double-shot, which is an actual separate color of plastic molded into the keys (some cherry BRAND boards, the deck supposedly, since the clear is a diff color than the black, but it looks to me when i squint at the pictures that it's inside a 'box'...)

i thought the das was blank?

6 keys is the max on any USB keyboard
you can get infinite with PS2
but modifiers are usually not included
so is 6 really a problem?
i cant really see using 6 in the main cluster, or at all
if it IS that important, make sure to use PS2
and get a REAL NKRO keyboard
a lot advertise it
but not all have it

das uses cherry blue one of the lightest switches around, so basically the total opposite of a model m or deck

das has issues with typing speeds over 100ish
but dont necessarily say "oh well i dont type that fast"
because for short rolls you might (typing 'the', your name, etc)

if you like backlit and heavy (non clicky) switches (cherry black) get the deck, but i also dont like the font or layout
but the das is pretty frowned upon everywhere (well not EVERYWHERE), kind of seen as the poser mechanical/ultimate keyboard
get a filco

ditch the logitech altogether
just get a separate screen if you so desire

EDIT by the way
liking my HHKB more and more
still havent taken the filco back out since my revelation, im scared it is TOO good and want to like my HHKB
the sound of the HHKB's enter (err, RETURN) is sublime
also accidentally found out that using the mac mode on the hhkb (softwareless, dip switches inside) gives me an alt-gr key, so i can do ¡ºª¢€ħðþ‘’–×~¹²³£¥ĦÐÞ“”—÷~äåãøłáéíółúüö«»õõ¿æœœẮ~~ ~~ÇÆŒ~ñÉ~ĐŁÜÍÅ without alt codes (not that i CAN do alt codes, theres no virtual numpad like on a laptop keyboard, one of the things i think is bad about the layout)

[agor]

I've also been looking at the Das Keyboard for quite some time now, and I think around christmas it is time to get yet another keyboard.
I'm pretty torn between the Das Ultimate and the FILCO Majestouch Tactile Click "Otaku" NKRO (http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104mcnpek_special)

Problem being that the Filco isn't carried anywhere in Germany / EU (or am I just too stupid to find it?), the Das Keyboard is.

[AndrewZorn]

i think no one reads my posts
too long or too short, and all lowercase

[agor]

i read your post about daskeyboard being buggy above 100 wpm, but they got free tryout for 30days here :P

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

I have the Tactile Deck and it breaks in really nicely, and the adjustable brightness LEDs are great. the Plastic is a 2 type molding with replacement keys available on warranty from deck

Also be sure to get the PS/2 model! usb can only handle 7 strokes simultaneously by spec, PS/2 can handle as many as you throw at it!

[JaccoW]

Thanks, I have been reading a bit more today and I am currently looking for a Deck Legend Frost (white) tactile PS2 version.
Looks like the best of both worlds. :cool:

I have a favourite webshop here in Holland and he is looking into it. So maybe I'll have one before christmas. :up:

@AndrewZorn: Das Keyboard is now available in a Ultimate (blank) and a professional (with letters) version.
Also; NKRO?
Edit: N-Key-Roll-Over: pressing multiple keys at once. The Deck should have it.

The keys on the deck are black with a white center. The letters are supposedly burned into the white plastic. That is how they should be pretty wearproof and still enable backlighting.

[AndrewZorn]

here's what i mean:

http://www.cardpos-online.com/ekmps/shops/cardpos/images/mini-cbl82-yel.jpg

look at backspace, right shift, then all the other keys. you can see the 'square', and on backspace and right shift even a little light leaking past it?
wear or not it makes it look kind of cheap.

also, at least the full-size legend doesnt have TOO crazy of a layout

with the das... you might not realize it now, your speed might (should) go up over time, and a 100wpm+ roll isnt unusual
but ive even heard rumor that the new "S" version might have fixed it
still the das is just a medicre-to-good blue cherry board. the filco is better.

[JaccoW]

There does seem to be a little bit of light leakage, but this one:
http://www.rewiredgear.net/modImages/final_keyboard_small.jpg
looks a lot better. Perhaps a little bit at the \| key.

I probably wouldn't really mind anyway.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

small amount of light leakage on mine, I dont mind it though because I cant see it sitting while typing and i dont sit at my computer with my face over my keyboard saying "damn the light is leaking"

[JaccoW]

SNiiPE_DoGG what colour Deck do you have? Would you mind taking some pictures of it?
Are the edges of the keys and their prints really visible?

I have a feeling this is a board that doesn't really look all that good on photographs, but better in real life.
What are your experiences?

Edit: The keys of the Deck are made like this:
http://www.deckkeyboards.com/images/3keycappic.jpg

[AndrewZorn]

the new DAS model S has indeed fixed the transposition/rollover issues.

[webbyboy]

Nothing beats filco blue switches.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

I am sorry I cant take pictures, no camera here at schoo >.< I have the blue tactile deck legend :up:

I would definitely say it looks better in real life, maybe during thanksgiving I will put in in the photo studio :up:

[JaccoW]

Looking forward to it.
How does it type?

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

Well I haven't used a Das or a Filco but I think its wonderful, I used to have a bunch of avant stellar boards and they were good too but i find this board nicer, the keys are a bit firmer (need breaking in when you first get it) but I have found that my typing speed has gotten much higher!

[AndrewZorn]

just thought i would bump this with my current collection, which is growing in diversity (or completeness (or absurdity, depending on how you want to think about it)):


PFU Happy Hacking Pro 2 (Topre)
http://www.elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/th/pdkb400w_iso_th620x400.jpg

Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Click (Cherry Blue)
http://www.elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/th/FKBN87MCNPEK_iso_th620x400.jpg

Cherry G86-62410EUAGSA (Cherry Brown)
http://z.about.com/d/retail/1/5/P/-/-/-/keyboard.jpg

Compaq MX-11900 (Cherry Black)
http://images.channeladvisor.com/Sell/SSProfiles/43000380/Images/79/vsnmc12__1.jpg

IBM Model M13 (Buckling Spring)
http://www.clickykeyboard.com/modelm/modelm%20002.jpg

Filco Zero Tenkeyless Fukka (Fukka Alps)
http://www.elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/th/FKBN87ZEB_face_th620x400.jpg

Dell AT101W (Black Alps)
http://www.clickykeyboard.com/2006/at101w/at101w-003.jpg

[JaccoW]

IBM Model M13 (Buckling Spring)
http://www.clickykeyboard.com/modelm/modelm%20002.jpg


That IBM Model M13 looks pretty cool. Especially with the red "keyboard nipple". :hrhr:
Is that for mousing, or...?

EDIT: I found it is a trackpoint. And it can be used to move the pointer.

[AndrewZorn]

yeah, its a model M with a trackpoint, and the only version that comes in black.

[Andrew LB]

I'm happy with my current keyboards. On my desktop setup I have a Logitech DiNovo Bluetooth Laser keyboard/mouse combo (courtesy of Logitech) and on my ION system is a Logitech Illuminated Keyboard. The feel of the Logitech Illuminated is by far the best I've used.

[JaccoW]

I finally got my Deck Legend Frost (white) tactile PS/2 version today, so it's time to post pics:
http://img2.pict.com/32/46/91/3011074/0/800/dsc00007.jpg
First impressions are good. I come from a Logitech G15 so there is quite a difference in keyfeel. (and noise)
I thought the casing might look a bit crappy, but it's actually a very sleek and chique looking dark silver.

The lighting is a bit off in the pictures, it's really white instead of the light blue it shows, but whatever.

Some more:
http://img2.pict.com/4a/66/57/3011089/0/800/dsc00010.jpg
http://img2.pict.com/23/8e/f3/3011146/0/800/dsc00011.jpg
http://img2.pict.com/f9/8b/ff/3011154/0/800/dsc00012.jpg
http://img2.pict.com/a1/0d/fb/3011160/0/800/dsc00013.jpg

Mysterious shot:
http://img2.pict.com/f4/c4/f1/3011170/0/800/dsc00014.jpg

Yaaargh!
http://img2.pict.com/72/da/5a/3011174/0/800/dsc00005.jpg

[stevecs]

Anyone have one of the Das Keyboards? personally I would have in a flash if they had a wireless model for it but seems all the good keyboards are tethered.

[JaccoW]

I have no idea why that is, but someone else (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7207&highlight=mechanical+wireless) asked the same on Geekhack.
Or you can build it yourself (http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_message/33055326#33055326). (Dutch)

[stevecs]

Interesting, the dutch site one I think would be better if everything can be fit into the keyboard itself (would also allow for different power sources like rechargeable batteries or whatever for longer run times). Though that design probably fits better with the happy hacking keyboards. ;)

[One_Hertz]

Anyone have one of the Das Keyboards? personally I would have in a flash if they had a wireless model for it but seems all the good keyboards are tethered.

I have the DAS ultimate. Before that, I had the deck legend for 1.5 years. I slightly prefer the Das, but really this has to do with my preference for keyboards that click when they register a key stroke.

Something else to note is that the USB controller on my Das is :banana::banana::banana::banana:ed. The keyboard only works on USB 1.1

[werdwerdus]

i also have the deck legend ice. i have the original linear switch model instead of the newer tactile feedback model. it's very loud lol. but great as i play stepmania, if you are unfamiliar it's a rhythm game that you mash buttons. i also have the 82-key deck board, i really don't like it that much compared to the legend. it is about twice as loud, the layout is hard to get used to as it is missing keys and they are not in standard positions.. and it has problems typing certain combinations of more than 3 or 4 simultaneous keys (but only in certain keys and combinations, not generally). as far as backlight brightness goes, my legend is ice meaning blue leds and it's super bright. i only keep it on setting 1 (out of 0 through 7 settings) and it is bright enough for me. my 82 key deck is the red leds and they are WAY less bright! comparing them side by side, the red leds on MAX brightness level 7 are about as bright as level 2 or 3 on my blue led deck.

oh p.s. here is a REALLY old video i made to demonstrate the keyboard playing stepmania. man i was bad lol. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PTI3E70ml4

[AndrewZorn]

there "used to be" a bluetooth filco. i do not know if it was discontinued or just pulled from the us market. as the us market is a single store (last time i checked), it wouldnt be surprising.

[JaccoW]

@Werdwerdus: Yeah I've seen that one. It did give me a pretty good idea of the sound it produces.
I was thinking on making a video of mine to show the level of sound it produces. I am having difficulties finding a good comparison sound though. Something that everyone would know the loudness of and recognize at what volume they would have to set their speakers.

[prava]

I'm typing with a Cherry G3000-80LPCES (Black MX switches) and I absolutely love it. It doesn't have any fancy leds nor it's a small sized keyboard: it's just a black, normal (from the outside) keyboard, as it has to be. At the beginning it felt a little too strong to push the buttons softly but now using a membrane one plain sucks.

It could be compared as trying an SSD...once you get used to it, there is no coming back.

[AndrewZorn]

@Werdwerdus: Yeah I've seen that one. It did give me a pretty good idea of the sound it produces.
I was thinking on making a video of mine to show the level of sound it produces. I am having difficulties finding a good comparison sound though. Something that everyone would know the loudness of and recognize at what volume they would have to set their speakers.
wow, i was just thinking the same thing... a sound benchmark and reference.
but any answers you seek pretty much are already documented at geekhack.

[lowfat]

Neither my Model M nor my Steelseries 7G works properly when using a ps2 to usb adapter on my mac. Thinking about picking up the Realforce 87U now. It is native usb so hopefully the keys will function properly. Shame I can't find a seller in Canada though. Going to end up paying north of $300USD to get one up here.

[SoulsCollective]

Again, if anyone manages to find a split-half raised-middle ergonomic one, please do let me know. I have used a mechanical keyboard, and much preferred it, but by the same token I really can't type on a straight board any more.

[Particle]

Das Keyboard user here. :) I recently found out that I love mech boards!

[mattkosem]

No fans of the Fatal1ty keyboard? I've had mine for a few years now and love it as much as the day I bought it. It has a bit of an odd layout, but I love the the scissor-switch keys and short key press distance. It has "eluminX" backlighting but, TBQH, I never turn it on.

--Matt

[AndrewZorn]

Neither my Model M nor my Steelseries 7G works properly when using a ps2 to usb adapter on my mac. Thinking about picking up the Realforce 87U now. It is native usb so hopefully the keys will function properly. Shame I can't find a seller in Canada though. Going to end up paying north of $300USD to get one up here.
have you tried different adapters? they are NOT all the same. try a "blue cube".

id help you with the shipping thing, but itd probably be about that in the end anyway.

[FloofyFox]

Still a fan of my Deck 82. Takes some getting used to though... haha, whenever my friends try to use it they get all frustrated, but after adjusting to the layout, it's a really fun keyboard. Mouse & wasd proximity a plus when gaming, and it's got a skull replacement key... Come on! A skull!

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn233/Floofy_Fox/Deck017.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn233/Floofy_Fox/evv346-1.jpg

[five]

Again, if anyone manages to find a split-half raised-middle ergonomic one, please do let me know. I have used a mechanical keyboard, and much preferred it, but by the same token I really can't type on a straight board any more.

not sure if you have seen, but there are a few (not sure if its the kind you want) in this thread http://www.overclock.net/computer-peripherals/491752-mechanical-keyboard-guide.html

never used it but you might want to check out (again, not sure if this style is of intrest to you) http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage.htm

[NKrader]

where it will miss keystokes after about 120wpm

umm you type superfast!! :shrug:

[AndrewZorn]

not me

[Xcel]

I couldn't go back to using 'normal' keyboards, flat keyboards are so much nicer. Here's mine

[Particle]

That's pretty shocking, to be honest. I don't know why anyone would willingly torture themselves with laptop keys when they don't have to! =P

The Das is pretty good, but it's buggy as all get out. Can't POST with it in, it kills other USB ports when on, and it transposes key presses when typing fast. I only type 75-80 WPM so I'm not sure how much it's effecting me, but it sure "seems" like I get it quite a bit. Going to try a Filco with Cherry blues in it later this week and see what's up.

[Particle]

I received the Filco Majestouch Tactile Click NKRO today that I ordered last weekend. This thing is beautiful! It's obviously superior to the Das. They both use Cherry blue switches, but this one is substantially quieter than the Das is. It's also about twice as heavy due to its quality construction. I think the base plate is made out of depleted uranium or lead or something. :) I'd originally planned to use the Das at work and use the Filco at home so that I could use a mechanical board at both places, but now I'm pretty sure I'm going to eBay the Das for a small loss fairly quickly and just buy another Filco. I'd highly recommend this thing!

[Blackstare]

Im using an IBM Model-M

http://blackstare.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/p1060967-800x450.jpg

[TJ TRICHEESE]

Did someone say XTREME, this is xtreme:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=23346

[lowfat]

Im using an IBM Model-M

http://blackstare.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/p1060967-800x450.jpg

Did you spray paint it? No offense but I think that the stock puke colour would look better than that.

[Particle]

No, the blue caps aren't standard. If you think it's ugly, don't buy them. I thought it was an interesting accent option as a gamer.

This thing makes absolute toast out of the Das Keyboard Professional, I have to say, after having used them both.

[AndrewZorn]

i like them, and think the red esc looks even better (an even more ridiculous bandwagon though, i admit)
i just could not stomach bothering PAYING so MUCH for them (on the HHKB/realforce they are $4-$5 a key...)

and it is funny you made the lead joke, there was a guy on geekhack that filled his logitech gamepad with lead to weigh it down after replacing all the dome switches with mechanical ones and high-quality keycaps.


Did you spray paint it? No offense but I think that the stock puke colour would look better than that.
it has been spraypainted (or modified somehow) as the only black model M is the M13 (the one with the trackpoint, i have one)
they do make black model M clones, unicomp keyboards, but they would not say IBM.

[cabbspapp]

No fans of the Fatal1ty keyboard? I've had mine for a few years now and love it as much as the day I bought it. It has a bit of an odd layout, but I love the the scissor-switch keys and short key press distance. It has "eluminX" backlighting but, TBQH, I never turn it on.

--Matt

I had one a long time ago. Sold it, the only time I deal with scissor keys is when I'm using a laptop.

I have a Filco Cherry MX Blue on the way to replace my G15.

[Rattle]

the world of high end keyboard is something I know little about. this thread is going to make me spend MONEY, i need a new KB and sick of the eclipses and things of that nature, i cant stand razer products and I cant get a g15 rev 1 sooo

guys that have used them and know, ALL I DO IS GAME, whats my best bet?

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkb104meb

whats the difference between this one and the higher prices ones on the site?

http://www.deckkeyboards.com/product_info.php?products_id=95

is this deck really that much better or worse?

[AndrewZorn]

for games you want a keyboard with NKRO... for the filcos, it is optional (a bit extra money) but all deck legends have it.

the only reason id want/suggest a deck legend is if you are interested in the tactile switches they offer. the tactility associated with cherry blue and brown, but with a stiffer spring like that of cherry black.

cant really suggest cherry blue for games. cherry brown is nice if you care for really light keys. cherry black seems the top choice for games-only, stiff keypresses with no click, but they are supposedly awful for typing. the clear, again, offered in the deck tactile is a little bit of both.

[Rattle]

for games you want a keyboard with NKRO... for the filcos, it is optional (a bit extra money) but all deck legends have it.

the only reason id want/suggest a deck legend is if you are interested in the tactile switches they offer. the tactility associated with cherry blue and brown, but with a stiffer spring like that of cherry black.

cant really suggest cherry blue for games. cherry brown is nice if you care for really light keys. cherry black seems the top choice for games-only, stiff keypresses with no click, but they are supposedly awful for typing. the clear, again, offered in the deck tactile is a little bit of both.

think i may just order the cherry black, how are they at this site for returns if i dont think its worth it?

[lowfat]

cant really suggest cherry blue for games. cherry brown is nice if you care for really light keys. cherry black seems the top choice for games-only, stiff keypresses with no click, but they are supposedly awful for typing.

It really depends on personal preference. Although I have never used any keyboard w/ Cherry blues/browns, I highly prefer the blacks over my IBM Type M. Keys are way too heavy I find. :shrug:

[Rattle]

I been reading about keyboard for a while now :P

I am thinking of going with the steel series 7g over the cherry black filco, its reported to have cherry blacks, from an esthetic pov this looks sic, not that it really matters, i could care less if my KB has wings and lights and stuff. these 2 should be basically the same KB anyway correct?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823239002&cm_re=7g-_-23-239-002-_-Product

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104mleb



http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823224001&Tpk=abs%20m1

then theres the cheap out option, not sure what to get.

[Particle]

Not sure what all the Cherry blue hate is about for gaming. I game on my Filco Tactile Touch w/ NKRO and it works just fine. The keys take a decent amount of pressure without being really heavy. They're good both when gaming and when typing, imo. Now if I could only quite sausage fingering the damn keyboard. hehe I've also found that I have a tendency to drift off and lose concentration when typing. This causes me to type random jibberish, unsurprisingly. I'll start merging words in my "buffer" quite frequently.

These things are a dream to type on compared to a membrane keyboard. Treat yourself. :)

[lowfat]

The 7G is nearly the same except it ha a smaller backspace key. That might bother some people. It also has headphone/mic extensions built in to the keyboard which I found very useful.

[Particle]

Love this thing enough to where after using it for five minutes last Friday when it arrived, I decided right then and there to order a second. Trying to sell off the Das now.

[Serpentarius]

come to think of it .... keyboard sure evolved slow ....

any ideas for possible mod? besides those bling and lcd?
i was thinking how nice if the keyboard itself has nice air flow from beneath and through the fingers ...

[Rattle]

Love this thing enough to where after using it for five minutes last Friday when it arrived, I decided right then and there to order a second. Trying to sell off the Das now.

which das u have? why dont you like it?

[Particle]

which das u have? why dont you like it?

I've got a Das Keyboard Professional, Model III. It has severe compatibility issues. I can't even POST with it attached--I have to manually disconnect the keyboard every time I reboot. It also makes my Via USB controller randomly reset every few seconds when attached. It also causes other ports on my integrated controller to quit working when attached. It *almost* works on my laptop except for said port killing issue. To top it off, it transposes keys if you type very fast at all.

The Majestouch on the other hand...just works. It's also quieter despite having the same key switch. It also feels better to the touch--virtually zero key wobble compared to anything else (including the Das).

[Rattle]

Wow so you think it would have same issues on an intel mobo?

[Particle]

I imagine it's random based on which USB controller you've got. My laptop is a C2D, so it has an Intel chipset of some series. My desktop is a quirky AMD Supermicro dual proc board. Both have issues, they just vary. I've used it on a second AMD machine where it hasn't presented any issues at all, other than the transposition problem (which will be present always due to how the keyboard was made).

[Rattle]

bummer, thanks for the info, (warning) i will stay away :P

[AndrewZorn]

the das has the usb issues and a lot of ghosting/nkro issues too.

the blues-for-gaming hate comes from repeated presses. clicky tactility is not really noticed that much when just going "aws aws ars arsars qws qws ars wqs arswas ssss "... trying to push a blue really fast though, is not easy. i am sure it is preference and all, but it is like trying to repeatedly click a ballpoint pen for me. the pronounced mechanical action makes it hard.

to elaborate, and have a real, concrete example: blues have a mandatory 'reset', like the trigger on a gun. in other words, you cannot lift it from bottomed-out just a bit and repress it... you have to let it click up to around the halfway point before it is ready to be activated again.

[Rattle]

I just purchased a 7G, never thought I'd see the day $150 for a KB rofl

[JaccoW]

Or to elaborate in pictures: posted here before (http://www.overclock.net/6009418-post2.html)
http://www.overclock.net/picture.php?albumid=2267&pictureid=12841
Tactile point of Blues.

http://www.overclock.net/picture.php?albumid=2267&pictureid=13194
Tactile point of Clears.

The actuating and reset point of the clears is at roughly the same spot as. Whereas the blues need to be depressed a lot further for them to reset/release and be able to press the key again.
In fast paced gaming you might be pressing the keys too quickly, so keys don't register, because they aren't fully released.

[Particle]

Oh trust me, I'm aware of the complaints and familiar with the switches' action charts. It's just something I never run into myself when playing FPS games or anything. People must be being really lazy with their keys. Then again, when at a keyboard, I have hammers for fingers. I'm not a light typist. You might blame that on my use of membrane keyboards for the last *forever* until now. They take a lot of pressure to work compared to a keyswitch board like the Das. This filco is fairly similar though.

[cabbspapp]

Just received my Filco Majestouch with Cherry MX Blues. I love this keyboard, typing on it is a dream compared to my G15.

[Particle]

We've got another believer! :D Majestouch Tactile Click pride!

[cabbspapp]

It's incredible. I knew it would be better than anything rubber dome, but this is the first time I've actually wanted to type on a keyboard for the sake of typing on it.

[Soulburner]

If only they made more ergonomic layouts maybe people wouldn't develop hand injuries using them too much :(

<-----------

Still looking for that perfect keyboard...seriously, stop it with the straight, rectangular keyboards of yesteryear. We learned long ago the dangers of typing on these for extended periods, myself firsthand. People don't heed the warnings posted on the back of most keyboards and think "well, it'll probably never happen to me".........

Give me a keyboard like Filco thats ergonomically designed, with some extra keys (media, etc) and I'll buy it...

[Particle]

Some of us vastly prefer those "rectangular keyboards of yesteryear". I'll agree with you on the media keys, however. You remind me of my dad who keeps going on about how trackballs are the future. He's been telling me regular mice are "antiquated" for upwards of a decade now, but we see how that has worked out. heh

If you're worried about wrist damage, it doesn't matter what your keyboard is shaped like. It's only a matter of time. You're better off typing on what you like to type with and taking regular breaks/stretching.

[AndrewZorn]

i really dont see what the keyboard being straight has to do with it.
also, colemak supposedly helps with RSI and stuff.

[Particle]

Being a straight board has as much to do with it as being not straight. The shape matters little, and that is applicable from either side of the ergo vs. not debate.

I learned to type on a straight board and would not be able to on an ergo without completely re-learning to type. Many others would be in the same predicament. It's not a show stopper, but there's little reason compelling me to switch since the health/safety issue is marginal.

[Soulburner]

Some of us vastly prefer those "rectangular keyboards of yesteryear". I'll agree with you on the media keys, however. You remind me of my dad who keeps going on about how trackballs are the future. He's been telling me regular mice are "antiquated" for upwards of a decade now, but we see how that has worked out. heh

If you're worried about wrist damage, it doesn't matter what your keyboard is shaped like. It's only a matter of time. You're better off typing on what you like to type with and taking regular breaks/stretching.
Trackballs...heh...never liked em'.

i really dont see what the keyboard being straight has to do with it.
also, colemak supposedly helps with RSI and stuff.
I want to try Colemak, sometime.

Being a straight board has as much to do with it as being not straight. The shape matters little, and that is applicable from either side of the ergo vs. not debate.
The shape matters a lot.

It has everything to do with what position standard keyboards place your wrists at. This varies due to how you sit (or stand) while typing, but unless you sit 3 feet back with your arms straight out, you aren't coming at a straight angle to your straight keyboard. One, or both, of your arms and wrists are at a slight angle.

And that isn't the full story. It's the pronation of your wrists that's a major problem. Trust me, I've done enough research on this stuff to know what makes a keyboard bad for you with repetitive use. There are split keyboard designs that overcome this.

I'm just amazed that none of them have really caught on in mass and moved forward to prevent more people from developing serious life changing injuries.


I learned to type on a straight board and would not be able to on an ergo without completely re-learning to type. Many others would be in the same predicament. It's not a show stopper, but there's little reason compelling me to switch since the health/safety issue is marginal.
It may seem marginal to you, but it really isn't.

[Soulburner]

Here's my contribution to Xtreme Keyboards:

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle.htm

[shoota]

wow i didn't know there were even such keyboards and how little i know about keyboards. i have a Saitek Eclipse II and now realise i'm probably gonna get laughed at.

[Soulburner]

http://smartfishtechnologies.com/products-keyboard.php

Now this looks cool...check the video. The theory sounds alright, it looks cool...but how is the durability and feel of the keys? They look like laptop keys, which a lot of people here don't like.

[AndrewZorn]

you could just spend a few hundred dollars and get the M15 or µtron

http://www.shoppalstores.com/ibmmodelm/image//M15-001.jpg

http://www.techfresh.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/unique-keyboard-from-utron.jpg

[shoota]

i'm sorry but for a couple hundred bucks i expect something that looks good. i know some of you don't care about looks but that looks like someone took a keyboard from an ibm computer 20 years ago and split it apart... what am i missing here?

[Serra]

@Soul - You know that if you want to go full-out ergo you have to get one of these (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage.htm). I believe they have Cherry MX Browns though, IMO they still need to change that to blue's to be perfect. You're not typing ergonomically until you get multiple feet pedals involved on a native DVORAK keyboard.

[Particle]

Someone just needs to make a rip off of a Microsoft Natural using metal mounted blues. Maybe include a few media keys. Surely someone is capable of that. I'm not really interested myself, but I know my brother (as well as many general users) would be.

[Soulburner]

@Soul - You know that if you want to go full-out ergo you have to get one of these (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage.htm). I believe they have Cherry MX Browns though, IMO they still need to change that to blue's to be perfect. You're not typing ergonomically until you get multiple feet pedals involved on a native DVORAK keyboard.
Hehe. I investigated DVORAK and COLEMAK. The latter sounds like the one I'd rather try.

http://colemak.com/FAQ

Google for more info.

Someone just needs to make a rip off of a Microsoft Natural using metal mounted blues. Maybe include a few media keys. Surely someone is capable of that. I'm not really interested myself, but I know my brother (as well as many general users) would be.
I wanted to like that KB but just hated the keys. It would be much better with Cherry switches but the keyboard itself doesn't go far enough in its "ergonomic design" IMO.

[Particle]

Boom! Second Filco Tactile Click arrived today. Now I've got the same board at home and work. Same mouse, too. :) Ahh, that's better.

[AndrewZorn]

i'm sorry but for a couple hundred bucks i expect something that looks good. i know some of you don't care about looks but that looks like someone took a keyboard from an ibm computer 20 years ago and split it apart... what am i missing here?
i was kind of kidding, but on the looks: you dont know what you are missing until you see a high quality white keyboard. everyone laughs at my white HHKB, but when you realize the details like POM construction and dyed lettering, it can look really really nice.

those keyboards are only expensive because of their rarity. the ibm has aging aesthetics but the µtron is fairly new and follows my "high quality white" bit

and yeah, if you are going to take the plunge and switch layouts, i would do colemak. dvorak's advantage is popularity, but when both are so EXTREMELY unpopular, does it really make a difference?
at least windows has dvorak built in, you have to add colemak. linux (specifically, x) has colemak built in though.

[Serra]

Hehe. I investigated DVORAK and COLEMAK. The latter sounds like the one I'd rather try.

http://colemak.com/FAQ

Google for more info.

The only issue with COLEMAK is it's obscurity. I'm not saying DVORAK is common by any stretch, but among the non-QWERTY English keyboards DVORAK has a larger market hold. So in the highly hypothetical world where QWERTY is overtaken, I'm just not sure it would be COLEMAK that wins. The big reason, I suppose, is that DVORAK must have 30 years on COLEMAK. A telling feature is how many more DVORAK keyboards you can find, and how few COLEMAK's (I'm not sure I've ever seen a single native COLEMAK keyboard, actually).

The functional difference between the two is pretty small, but having to re-learn a second keyboard layout is just too unappealing a thought to me.

[AndrewZorn]

right, but im saying that since both are SO small, if there is ever a mass-study on the benefits, colemak would be the one getting the attention.

[Soulburner]

The only issue with COLEMAK is it's obscurity. I'm not saying DVORAK is common by any stretch, but among the non-QWERTY English keyboards DVORAK has a larger market hold. So in the highly hypothetical world where QWERTY is overtaken, I'm just not sure it would be COLEMAK that wins. The big reason, I suppose, is that DVORAK must have 30 years on COLEMAK. A telling feature is how many more DVORAK keyboards you can find, and how few COLEMAK's (I'm not sure I've ever seen a single native COLEMAK keyboard, actually).
But it doesn't matter, does it? You can rearrange all the keys if you want, after you install Colemak on your computer. They recommend against it though.

Taken from the Colemak FAQ (http://colemak.com/FAQ):

What's wrong with the QWERTY layout?

It places very rare letters in the best positions, so your fingers have to move a lot more.
It suffers from a high same finger ratio that slows down typing and increases strain.
It allows for very long sequences of letters with the same hand (e.g. "sweaterdresses")
It was designed to prevent the keys from sticking, without any consideration to ergonomic or efficiency aspects.
It was designed so the word "typewriter" could be typed on the top row to ease demonstrations.
It suffers from an extremely high ratio of home-row-jumping sequences (e.g. "minimum")

What's wrong with the Dvorak layout?

The main problem with Dvorak is that it's too difficult and frustrating to learn for existing QWERTY typists because it's so different from QWERTY. Colemak has been designed to be easy to learn.
Placing 'L' on the QWERTY 'P' position causes excessive strain on the right pinky. Colemak doesn't place frequent letters where the pinkies stretch.
'F' is on the QWERTY 'Y' position which is a difficult stretch on normal keyboards.
'I' is very frequent but isn't on the home position.
'R' is very frequent but isn't on the home row.
It is significantly lopsided so that the right hand does too much work.
It's not comfortable to use Ctrl-Z/X/C/V shortcuts with the left hand while holding the mouse with the right hand. Colemak conserves those shortcuts in their QWERTY positions.
Even though the design principles are sound, the implementation isn't optimal because it was designed without the aid of computers.
'L' and 'S' form a frequent same-finger digraph on the right pinky. Same-finger for the pinky is very rare in Colemak. In particular, Unix commands such as 'ls -l' are very uncomfortable to type.
Some punctuation (in particular the curly/square brackets) is less comfortable to type on Dvorak. This affects mainly programmers and advanced Unix users.



Is there any scientific research that shows that Colemak is better?

According to carpalx (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak), which is the most extensive research on keyboard layouts done so far, Colemak wins over Dvorak and QWERTY in all different typing effort models. Note that the default scoring model used by carpalx is somewhat subjective, but configurable. Moreover, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence on the Colemak forum (http://forum.colemak.com/), and on the web.

http://colemak.com/wiki/images/8/80/Colemak_layout_2.png

See why Colemak is easy to learn (http://colemak.com/Easy_to_learn).

[AndrewZorn]

even more interesting, there is a page somewhere that lets you paste in a paragraph of text YOU typed, and it evaluated the finger distance needed to type it with qwerty, dvorak, and colemak
guess which won every time (for me)?

[[XC] Synthetickiller]

I'm looking forward to this guy:

http://www.guru-board.com/pics/prototype_white_keys002.jpg

http://www.guru-board.com/pics/prototype_black_keys001.jpg

http://www.guru-board.com/pics/prototype_black_keys003.jpg

http://www.guru-board.com/pics/prototype_white_keys001.jpg

I love ibm trackpoint keyboards, but the new lenovo models leave more to be desired. Maybe this brand will provide a better "clicky" feel.

[[XC] Synthetickiller]

http://smartfishtechnologies.com/products-keyboard.php

Now this looks cool...check the video. The theory sounds alright, it looks cool...but how is the durability and feel of the keys? They look like laptop keys, which a lot of people here don't like.

I like the idea. :up:

[JaccoW]

even more interesting, there is a page somewhere that lets you paste in a paragraph of text YOU typed, and it evaluated the finger distance needed to type it with qwerty, dvorak, and colemak.
You mean this one (http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/)


Synthetickiller;4311795']I'm looking forward to this guy:
White Guru Prototype (http://www.guru-board.com/pics/prototype_white_keys002.jpg)

That is a nice looking board. Very sleek. Where did you get it?

EDIT: Guru-Board.com (http://www.guru-board.com/)
Awesome, a configurator! White body, black keys and a red stick. Even a choice of keyswitch, (Cherry blue, brown or red). Damn don't tempt me. I have to save money here.
I want one like this:
http://imgur.com/7bLbZ.png

[Rattle]

I've had my steelseries 7G a few days now and I love it for typing and gaming. I would have been fine with a black cherry filco I would think also. I love the base on this thing.

[AndrewZorn]

yeah, the guruboad guy is on geekhack if you want to ask him about it. for a long time he wasnt even sure if he was going to produce it, but he got the money. still a ways from being out though, i think. and when it is released, it might even make the HHKB look cheap just because of volume. on the upside, trackpoint and keys in the corners. he spoke a bit about programmability but i dont know if that will make it to the final version.

[Serra]

But it doesn't matter, does it? You can rearrange all the keys if you want, after you install Colemak on your computer. They recommend against it though.

There is no argument that COLEMAK is technically superior to DVORAK, that's not in question and never has been. The only thing that is in question is which - in a theoretical world - would win against QWERTY and become "the new standard". My argument is that while COLEMAK is the better choice technically, DVORAK is pretty darn good itself (the difference between them honestly isn't huge) and it has a larger user base PLUS keyboard support.

As for removing keys and shuffling them around, well that's good and dandy but I prefer full keyboard portability without having to play around with computer settings to get recognition. I mean heck, sometimes you can't even do that - I have seen many phones with a DVORAK keyboard option but never once have I seen a COLEMAK re-mapper option. Same goes for any piece of equipment that runs on a custom-made OS, like many of the devices I have to plug my keyboard into on a weekly basis. There is no replacing a keyboard that "just works" with whatever it is plugged into.


IMO the biggest problem COLEMAK has is a lack of hardware. DVORAK keyboards exist and are sold by stores who sell ergonomic equipment for people with carpel tunnel syndrome and the like, but COLEMAK just has no equal answer (unfortunately). Perhaps if it did then all of those stores would sell COLEMAK keyboards instead, and then one has an argument for COLEMAK. Until that happens there is just no way for it to take off, and I'm decidedly iffy about counselling people to learn an obscure keyboard layout that doesn't even hold the front position among obscure keyboard layouts.

[Soulburner]

Straight from the main page, which I linked to:

22-Nov-2009: Colemak for Android phones is now available with AnySoftKeyboard. It can be downloaded from the Android Market.
25-Jan-2009: Colemak for the iPhone is now available (requires jailbreaking).
24-May-2008: Colemak added to the NetBSD kernel, it will be included with NetBSD 5.0.

[AndrewZorn]

There is no argument that COLEMAK is technically superior to DVORAK, that's not in question and never has been. The only thing that is in question is which - in a theoretical world - would win against QWERTY and become "the new standard". My argument is that while COLEMAK is the better choice technically, DVORAK is pretty darn good itself (the difference between them honestly isn't huge) and it has a larger user base PLUS keyboard support.

As for removing keys and shuffling them around, well that's good and dandy but I prefer full keyboard portability without having to play around with computer settings to get recognition. I mean heck, sometimes you can't even do that - I have seen many phones with a DVORAK keyboard option but never once have I seen a COLEMAK re-mapper option. Same goes for any piece of equipment that runs on a custom-made OS, like many of the devices I have to plug my keyboard into on a weekly basis. There is no replacing a keyboard that "just works" with whatever it is plugged into.


IMO the biggest problem COLEMAK has is a lack of hardware. DVORAK keyboards exist and are sold by stores who sell ergonomic equipment for people with carpel tunnel syndrome and the like, but COLEMAK just has no equal answer (unfortunately). Perhaps if it did then all of those stores would sell COLEMAK keyboards instead, and then one has an argument for COLEMAK. Until that happens there is just no way for it to take off, and I'm decidedly iffy about counselling people to learn an obscure keyboard layout that doesn't even hold the front position among obscure keyboard layouts.
the answer to this is flash-programmable keyboards. just like NKRO, the cost is so small, WHY OH WHY cant it be more standardized...

[[XC] Synthetickiller]

yeah, the guruboad guy is on geekhack if you want to ask him about it. for a long time he wasnt even sure if he was going to produce it, but he got the money. still a ways from being out though, i think. and when it is released, it might even make the HHKB look cheap just because of volume. on the upside, trackpoint and keys in the corners. he spoke a bit about programmability but i dont know if that will make it to the final version.

I read in a magazine, fancy that, that the keyboard would probably be out Q4 of this year, but who knows....

I'll probably throw some money at this one if it does in fact live up to expectations.

I'm still not sure about the left/right click placement though and I'm still waiting to see where the 3rd button will reside.

[AndrewZorn]

probably just 1+2

[JaccoW]

The Miniguru is cancelled (http://www.guru-board.com/blog). :(
Lowpoly (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=194205&postcount=586) on Geekhack said it''s not going to happen.

That's a real shame, because it was an awesome concept.

[[XC] Synthetickiller]

The Miniguru is cancelled (http://www.guru-board.com/blog). :(
Lowpoly (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=194205&postcount=586) on Geekhack said it''s not going to happen.

That's a real shame, because it was an awesome concept.

This sucks. I wanted a desktop, not laptop keyboard, with a trackpoint that was natively USB.

I'll stick to my PS/2 till it someone, either lenovo or another vendor, comes out with something.

[Ket]

Seems like I might be one of a minority by the looks of this thread who rarely uses a keyboard (except for gaming of course) and uses a touch display.

[JaccoW]

Well, I like touchscreen technology, just not exclusively.
For example I would prefer a phone with both a touchscreen and some physical keys.
Same for a PC. A good touch screen is great, but if I need to type for longer stretches and 'blind' I prefer a physical keyboard.

[lowfat]

It really is a shame that Happy Hacking is the only keyboard manufacturer out there that makes a ~ 60 key mechanical keyboard. I really want something that small in order to keep my mouse hand closer to my keyboard. However I don't want to buy a gimped keyboard like the HHKB.

[Bobsama]

It really is a shame that Happy Hacking is the only keyboard manufacturer out there that makes a ~ 60 key mechanical keyboard. I really want something that small in order to keep my mouse hand closer to my keyboard. However I don't want to buy a gimped keyboard like the HHKB.

What I'd appreciate is if keyboard manufacturers would stop sticking Fn+_ keys in. It gets really annoying to have a desktop keyboard resemble a laptop keyboard.

Anyways, I've been using a basic keyboard recently and i find that it's still rather uncomfortable. If there was a quiet & blank-key mechanical keyboard with a standard IBM layout, I'd be all over that like white on rice. I just dislike when the Backspace is undersized, Enter is oversized, and the |\¬¦ key is misplaced. I'm trying to get used to the US International layout now.

[lowfat]

What I'd appreciate is if keyboard manufacturers would stop sticking Fn+_ keys in. It gets really annoying to have a desktop keyboard resemble a laptop keyboard.


I don't mind the function keys at all. I use them all the time on my Steelseries 7G.

I've been really wanting to pick up a Realforce 87U here but the only thing Elitekeyboards has is that ugly white/grey thing. :down: Might just have to go w/ a Filco.

[Particle]

Anyone else find themselves starting to type incorrectly on a Filco Majestouch after a while? I know it isn't the keyboard since both of my units started doing it around the same time on two different PCs miles apart. It has to be me. Over months of using these keyboards exclusively, I've somehow slowly evolved to where my typing appears to be multi-triggering these Cherry blues. I don't know how exactly--it must be some sort of bounce since this happens at full typing speed during the regular course of typing. I've had to resort to hammering the keys like I started out doing when I had first migrated from membrane boards. Specifically, this only happens with keys on the left hand, with Es being the most common and Ts being the next most.

[lowfat]

Anyone else find themselves starting to type incorrectly on a Filco Majestouch after a while? I know it isn't the keyboard since both of my units started doing it around the same time on two different PCs miles apart. It has to be me. Over months of using these keyboards exclusively, I've somehow slowly evolved to where my typing appears to be multi-triggering these Cherry blues. I don't know how exactly--it must be some sort of bounce since this happens at full typing speed during the regular course of typing. I've had to resort to hammering the keys like I started out doing when I had first migrated from membrane boards. Specifically, this only happens with keys on the left hand, with Es being the most common and Ts being the next most.

I don't have issues w/ this. Although I am using Cherry blacks.

[werdwerdus]

i guess i could see this being possible on linear switches, but it would be less feasible on tactical feedback switches I think. reason being that if you aren't pushing the linear switches down all the way to the bottom, you may be inadvertantly holding the key partway down and double triggering it while your finger "trembles" or something? (does this make any sense? it feels like i'm rambling haha)

[Particle]

Yeah, it has to be something along those lines. I wonder if a different switch would do better for me.

[lowfat]

Ended up ordering a Filco tenkeyless w/ blues over the weekend to replace this Steelseries w/ blacks. Can't wait to start using a small keyboard again.

[lowfat]

Finally got my Filcon tenkeyless w/ blues today. Took about 2 weeks to arrive but man what a wonderful keyboard. It it miles ahead of the cherry blacks of my last keyboard.

http://hostthenpost.org/uploads/f3af71f1f6a18ecc7489e6a75c94b597.jpg (http://hostthenpost.org)

[Particle]

I'm glad you like it. Blues can be very nice to type on, but keep an eye out for repeating characters after a while. I'd be interested to know if you end up with that same problem a few months down the line, just due to changes in physical typing habits.

[antiacid]

So I want a mechanical keyboard.

I've searched long and hard and it looks like the Deck Legend full size is what I want. However, it seems that either there's none available or it's ridiculously expensive to ship to Canada. Does anyone have any alternative keyboards that are similar to the Deck? (I want LED backlit, I want soft tactile feedback with little noise, I don't want it to look like a 80's kb and I want a full size keyboard).

Any suggestions for a canadian buyer?

[JaccoW]

So I want a mechanical keyboard.

I've searched long and hard and it looks like the Deck Legend full size is what I want. However, it seems that either there's none available or it's ridiculously expensive to ship to Canada. Does anyone have any alternative keyboards that are similar to the Deck? (I want LED backlit, I want soft tactile feedback with little noise, I don't want it to look like a 80's kb and I want a full size keyboard).

Any suggestions for a canadian buyer?
I got myself a Deck from the US to The Netherlands, and it too was hideously expensive, but worth it. :up:

However, if you want a backlit, tactile feedback and fullsize then you might want to look at the Razer BlackWidow (http://www2.razerzone.com/blackwidow). Geekhack (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=11146&page=46)
It does however have Cherrry blue switches so it is clicky. The price however is reasonable at $130,-

[kjeldoran]

Anyone else find themselves starting to type incorrectly on a Filco Majestouch after a while? I know it isn't the keyboard since both of my units started doing it around the same time on two different PCs miles apart. It has to be me. Over months of using these keyboards exclusively, I've somehow slowly evolved to where my typing appears to be multi-triggering these Cherry blues. I don't know how exactly--it must be some sort of bounce since this happens at full typing speed during the regular course of typing. I've had to resort to hammering the keys like I started out doing when I had first migrated from membrane boards. Specifically, this only happens with keys on the left hand, with Es being the most common and Ts being the next most.

I type better on my filco, but when I have to use computers at my university I seem to miss a lot more strokes. I guess I am used to my Filco, but I do have brown switches.

Also, anyone wanting to buy a filco, elitekeyboards is the place to order from. I had some isopropyl alcohol get on my keys when I was cleaning off some TIM on my CPU and video card. It discolored my keys and I contacted elitekeyboards asking if this was normal. They said it was normal and they are trying to work out something with the manufacturer to get different keys. Needless to say about 3-4 weeks after that email, I received a package with an entire set of keys for my keyboard. I didn't even ask for a new set because I took a sharpie to make it normal again. Awesome service!

[werdwerdus]

i don't know if performance-pcs ships to canada but that's where i got mine

[MagisD]

Ohhh ya they ship to canada but you will get nailed with duty

Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk

[lowfat]

Ohhh ya they ship to canada but you will get nailed with duty

Sent from my X10a using Tapatalk

If you use USPS you barely ever have to pay duty. I bought $1500 from Performance-PC's in the past 3-4 months and besides the only time I accidentally used UPS (:mad:) I think I've payed maybe $45 in brokerage.

[lowfat]

I type better on my filco, but when I have to use computers at my university I seem to miss a lot more strokes. I guess I am used to my Filco, but I do have brown switches.

Also, anyone wanting to buy a filco, elitekeyboards is the place to order from. I had some isopropyl alcohol get on my keys when I was cleaning off some TIM on my CPU and video card. It discolored my keys and I contacted elitekeyboards asking if this was normal.

Looks like I'll be doing something different to clean my keyboard. On my old keyboards I often used alcohol to clean underneath the keys.

[kjeldoran]

Looks like I'll be doing something different to clean my keyboard. On my old keyboards I often used alcohol to clean underneath the keys.

This is what was said to me:

"The Majestouch keyboards have a coating on the keys, that is probably
susceptable to damage by 93% isopropyl. For this reason, I would normally
not recommend cleaning your keyboard with it.

Other customers find this coating, and its fragility to be a shortcoming
of this product, and we generally agree, so we've been working with them
on updating this product to use either a different coating or no coating."

So, apparently it is just the keys and not the frame or underneath the keys. Which I do believe since I did not see any discoloration underneath the keys or on the visible frame of the keyboard.

[Sadhana]

Narrowing with 3 options that I have in my country, which one you guys recommended:

1. Filco Majestouch (vary in Cherry Black or Blue)
2. Steelseries G6V2 (Cherry Black in it?)
3. Newest Razer: Blackwidow (maybe use Cherry Blue).

One thing I hate the Blackwidow is glossy shiny body, well, I actually ever saw the real look of it, I just saw in many web's review.

[vohu manah]

Hmm this makes me envy you guys. I have a 18"4' laptop, but I prefer small keyboards.

If it was possible for me to replace this big keyboard on my laptop, I would. >_< I love to play games and chat, my fingers hurt after a while.

[lkiller123]

How much should I expect to pay for an IBM Model M13?

[lowfat]

How much should I expect to pay for an IBM Model M13?

I paid like $35 + shipping for mine.

[JaccoW]

How much should I expect to pay for an IBM Model M13?

They can go for up to $100,-. Depends on the condition, and how many crazy people are bidding. :D

[Particle]

This is what was said to me:

"The Majestouch keyboards have a coating on the keys, that is probably
susceptable to damage by 93% isopropyl. For this reason, I would normally
not recommend cleaning your keyboard with it.

Other customers find this coating, and its fragility to be a shortcoming
of this product, and we generally agree, so we've been working with them
on updating this product to use either a different coating or no coating."

So, apparently it is just the keys and not the frame or underneath the keys. Which I do believe since I did not see any discoloration underneath the keys or on the visible frame of the keyboard.

That makes sense. Only the keys are coated, which you can see after typing on your keyboard for a while anyway. Their coating gives it that really nice satin look and feel, but it wears away fairly quickly to reveal shinier, regular black keys. It's not just oil getting on your keys causing that color change nor is it skin residue building up in splotches.

I'd say there's little to lose by just washing it off in the regular coarse of cleaning. You might also try a different type of alcohol like ethyl if you want to clean it but keep the film. I've not tested it, but it may behave differently to that chemical.

[kjeldoran]

That makes sense. Only the keys are coated, which you can see after typing on your keyboard for a while anyway. Their coating gives it that really nice satin look and feel, but it wears away fairly quickly to reveal shinier, regular black keys. It's not just oil getting on your keys causing that color change nor is it skin residue building up in splotches.

I'd say there's little to lose by just washing it off in the regular coarse of cleaning. You might also try a different type of alcohol like ethyl if you want to clean it but keep the film. I've not tested it, but it may behave differently to that chemical.

Probably, but I got the isopropyl alcohol on my keys by accident. I just use water to clean my keys as I always feel like there is a residue when using any cleaner to clean a keyboard/mouse.

[NEOAethyr]

I'm using an IBM SK-8805.
The oem I can't remember...

It's a pretty nice keyboard, but unfortunately the usb controller is 1x spec.
Which sucks b@lls...
But I still use it to boot into dos with, usb sticks, or sometimes I plug my xbox controller in to it.

I got my mouse hooked in it 24/7.


I'de like a keyboard with laptop type keys and a simuler layout as my current keyboard, but with usb3 or usb2 instead of the usb1 controller.
But... no such thing :\.

IBM's keyboard's, well, newer ones aren't like this one so... which sucks.

I still got some of the old school ibm clicky key keyboard's...
Heavy mofo's.
I don't like them though lol.

[lkiller123]

I paid like $35 + shipping for mine.

Holy :banana::banana::banana::banana: you are lucky! How did you get it?

[hillywav]

any blackwidow's verdict?

[Particle]

You could probably take apart a USB 3 hub and put it in the case of your keyboard if it's an oldie. The cases on those things are huge.

[NEOAethyr]

This is my sk-8805 ibm:
http://img.album.pchome.net/00/59/63/26/b3ebcbe10cf521ee73421d7f982cdef3.jpg

Well close to it, mine is form the us.
Just about the same though, all the keys are laid out the same.
My function buttons on top are all black though.
The hand rest thing on the bottom is removable, I have no idea where mine is, it just annoyed me.

On the top left of it, on the side, is 2 usb 1.0 ports.
It's intergrated on the pcb with a small chip.
And the insides of it are a pain to work with, if you hurry when you take it apart you can rip parts of the plastic trace lines that it has in diff parts of the keyboard.

They did make usb2 ver's, but those don't have the page back/forward buttons by the arrow keys.
Which is the coolest thing about the keyboard...

But the bummer part of that is, most games can't see those 2 keys.
Only games I can think of are unrealtournament 2k3/2k4 :\.
I know there was another game or 2, but that's about it.
Those keys work fine in generic window's apps though like browsers.
Makes for switching weapons in games nice, or for other things.
That and the del, page up and down buttons are more accessable for gaming.

Doesn't need any software to use the standby, speaker volumen/mute and page backforward keys.

Back in xp, win2k3, I would change the standby mode button to power off.
And I can power off my system with my keyboard.
In windows 7 I don't have that option though, standby button ='s standby :\.

I'll tell you one thing though, if you spill a bunch of pop on this keyboard, it's screwed.
I spent the night over abuddies house a few years back, and while I was sleeping he poured a 2 liter's worth of pop on my dfi nf2 lpb and my keyboard.
I learned how to wash motherboards and other parts because of that...

But my keyboard was screwed.
Later on down the road, for building a pc for a diff buddy of mine, he gave me his keyboard, same one that I used to have.
We got them around the same time.

The only real thing that bugs me about this keyboard is that the volume up button acts up and doesn't want to work most of the time (switch button thing acts up).
Ticks me off when I can lower the volume to nothing but can't up it while in a game.

Someday I'll have to get a diff keyboard.
Before that though I'll be getting a nice high dpi mouse like a razor or something.

[Mash]

Look what i found at my parents countryhouse last week:
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/3792/dsc0190vn.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/dsc0190vn.jpg/)
Bought an AT - PS/2 connector and cleaned the caps (unfortunatly couple of them are missing).
I don't know what model is it, but it has ALPS white switches.