What would it take to build a cryogenic cooler? [Archive]

Shingoshi

08-13-2009, 12:12 PM

I did a search of this forum first before posting this. Ironically, there was nothing even given for the term cryogenic anywhere on this forum. So it seems like this may be new territory.

EDIT: It would have helped if I had spelled cryogenic correctly!

After seeing all the discussions of extreme phase-change cooling, I wondered if anyone here really ever considered building a system capable of cryogenic temperatures. We've all seen the accounts of builders on the web using LN2 or even Helium for short runs to set records for overclocking. But what about the possibility of actually building a cryogenic system that could run 24/7?

I'm certain such a system would require multiple stages, and probably in combination with autocascading techniques. And the thing is, I think some of the advanced builders here actually have the skill to do this. So what would it take to build a system to stop the fires of hell, so to speak. If anyone has looked into this, let us know what you've found out.

In the long run, I guess this thread will be primarily theoretical. Although it would be nice if an actual guide could be established from this.

Shingoshi

EDIT: Because of the repeated questions I've had about vortex tubes, please don't ask me any questions about "vortex tubes" without FIRST having looked up "vortex tube" on the internet. There's way TOO MUCH INFORMATION on the subject to have to keep covering the same issue.

EDIT: Throughout the course of asking this question, I have pursued many directions of attacking a solution to this. In some ways, my posts may seem rambling. I acknowledge that. But I think of greater importance are the various studies I've found be researchers probing similar goals. As a result I've made frequent use of patent searches.

The greatest objection that has been raised is the amount of energy that would have to be consumed to provide such a level of deep cooling. It is here that I've sought understanding of how various devices and technologies that I had become aware of have been shared here. Many of these investigations are beyond the scope of what is typically pursued by users of this site. But then again, if that weren't the case, many of them would already have cryogenically-cooled computers. So here are some of the links I've found related to this topic:

I express my gratitude for FreePatentsOnline - Free Patent Searching (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/), where membership is required to access.
CRYOGENIC ABSORPTION CYCLES (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3854301.pdf)
Two-statge sorption type cryogenic refrigerator including heat regeneration system (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4875346.pdf)
Super critical helium refrigeration process and apparatus (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4346563.pdf)
Oxygen chemisorption cryogenic refrigerator (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4697425.pdf)
Cryogenic refrigerator (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5487272.pdf)

I am also very grateful for the work of the many who have contributed to Wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org). These are some of the links which serve as background material for the discussion here:
Regenerative heat exchanger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_heat_exchanger)

I will continue to update this list.

trance565

08-13-2009, 12:59 PM

millions of dollars to start.

yngndrw

08-13-2009, 01:43 PM

A large contract with BOC or another LN2 supplier. ;) Probably cheaper than making your own.

-EC-UnRockStar

08-13-2009, 03:14 PM

http://www.extremecooling.net/index/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?47785.380

not finished and without ARCs

[XC] gomeler

08-13-2009, 03:39 PM

Cryogenics technically starts at -150 Celsius. Biggest problem is most chips, the reason we build these things, won't run at -150 Celsius and below. Next up is cost. A two stage cascade runs around $1k in parts. Each additional stage runs ~$400 after that. Problem is after r1150 you jump to r14(expensive) and then methane and argon. Provide a builder with $6k to $8k and after blowing $2k on random problems I'm sure you'd see LN2 temps. Unrockstar's cascade is massive and I imagine the price is somewhere close to $6k.

It all boils down to money in the end. I know I'd like to hit -200C as an experiment but can't afford to.

Postal Dude

08-13-2009, 05:41 PM

Also Shingoshi, most cryogenic coolers are designed to bring something down to temperature and then just keep it there, heavily insulated. For what we use, it becomes alot harder as were pumping a hell of a lot of energy into the system. A very auto cascade could run extremely low temperatures if it wasnt expected to cope with any sort of load. There is a thread somewhere on here (good luck finding it) either wrdzal or chilly1 showed what an auto-c could accomplish without any load holding capabilities, i think they got down to -140ish with one compressor.

Shingoshi

08-13-2009, 07:05 PM

The reason why I posed this question is the result my buying four Rechi compressors on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160287043717 Granted, I only paid $20/each for them. But I figured if I'm going through all of this trouble, how much of a reward could I expect to receive from my efforts.

In the process of trying to find more data on these Rechi compressors, I came across Spudfiles.com where someone had posted a question about how to wire the capacitors. Come to find out, there's a guy there who works with cryogenic systems in his employment. He told me to pm him so that I could find out how to work with cryogenic systems. Of course, I emailed him right away. So I'm now waiting to see what comes of this. It would be nice to have people who actually work with cryogenic systems professionally.

Anyway, his initial suggestion was that I tie three of the compressors in a parallel circuit as my first stage, and then run that line into the fourth compressor. Doing that would up my capacity while also increasing my pressure. So I'll be looking into this just to see what actually can be done with multiple compressors.

Shingoshi
And for those of you who complained about me not posting pictures, I just got a digital camera today. But I still need to get the mini-USB cord for it.

-EC-UnRockStar

08-14-2009, 01:53 AM

gomeler;3958570']Unrockstar's cascade is massive and I imagine the price is somewhere close to $6k.

:rofl:

10k ;)

MeltedDuron

08-14-2009, 02:26 AM

:rofl:

10k ;)

:banana::banana::banana::banana: a duck!!! Let alone when you switch it on!!

wdrzal

08-14-2009, 10:03 AM

:rofl:

10k ;)

I bet 10K doesn't include Labor either.

Duh

08-14-2009, 10:43 AM

:rofl:

10k ;)

:shocked::shocked::shocked::shocked::shocked::shoc ked:

you should have your rank updated I guess.. from registered member to extreme crazy phase change of something like that :p:

[XC] gomeler

08-14-2009, 11:01 AM

I was factoring my costs scouring eBay. Impressive nonetheless :up:

I bet 10K doesn't include Labor either.

Just parts. Can't charge true labor costs on these things or nobody could afford them.

Shingoshi

08-15-2009, 12:43 AM

As a generalization, for all phase-change systems:
1.) What would happen if you had something like an insulated scuba tank (a dewar) in which you could store very cold liquefied refrigerant?
2.) How much insulation would you need?
3.) How long could you keep the refrigerant cold?
4.) How much might this reduce the load on the system, by having a reservoir?
5.) Would a much smaller high-pressure bottle like those used for paintball work as well?

EDIT: I realize that how long you could keep the refrigerant cold depends on how much insulation you have around the tank. So for short-term usage, you might not need a lot of insulation. But for 24/7 as I've suggested here, you'd need much more insulation. So if you wanted to keep the liquefied-refrigerant cold for more than 24 hours, what would you need? And again, I realize this will also depend on the refrigerant being used as well. But interestingly enough, the larger the volume of the reservoir, the easier it would be to keep the liquid cold. Because the liquid itself will begin to act as an insulator.

The greater the volume of the reservoir, the less surface area proportional to volume there will be enclosing it. So there will be less absorption of heat, proportional to mass.

Shingoshi

Moc

08-15-2009, 02:49 AM

Big question: Why do you want to store liquid refrigerant??? A phase change unit is a circuit, you don't need to store cold refrigerant.

Shingoshi

08-15-2009, 03:23 AM

Big question: Why do you want to store liquid refrigerant??? A phase change unit is a circuit, you don't need to store cold refrigerant.
I'm building a system for 24/7 uptime. And the system will have multiple boards in it. So for safety concerns, I want a means to allow for safe shutdown in the event of compressor failure. Given the amount of wattage I'm building for (@8 cpus), the processors would have no reserve to keep them cool in an emergency.

I was thinking that two benefits might exist here.
1.) Quicker startup times if any shutdown is required for maintenance.
2.) It might lower the overall compressor load. Like a tank on an air compressor.
EDIT: And this ties both of the above into a single concern. It would take a long time to bring the system up to capacity to handle the load of all the processors. It would take even longer if any graphic cards are included. Having the reservoir would eliminate that problem.

I would use a switch based on my system's activity led, which would turn the tank off only when the computer is actually down. That way if the compressor went offline for any reason, the system would still have a reserve of coolant.

Shingoshi

SexyMF

08-15-2009, 04:00 PM

So you want to build an eight head multi-stage rig?

Sounds like you are better off to purchase a LN2 generator and pots.

Shingoshi

08-15-2009, 04:45 PM

Shingoshi

08-15-2009, 06:48 PM

So you want to build an eight head multi-stage rig?

Sounds like you are better off to purchase a LN2 generator and pots.
The expense of the LN2 generator would likely be greater than what I'm considering. And given the fact I said this is for 24/7 uptime, please explain how that would even be a practical suggestion.

EDIT: In looking over the Elan LN2 generator, I found the following statement:
The liquefier takes about an hour to cool down before liquefaction of nitrogen can begin.
This process is tracked by the Orange LED (“B”) and Blue LED (“A”) located on the left
of the Display Panel above the Green (“C”) LED. See Fig. 6. When the temperature falls
below -73°C (200K) the Orange LED comes on. This occurs about twenty-five minutes
after start-up. When the temperature reaches -173°C (100K) the Blue LED comes on and
liquefaction begins shortly thereafter. Liquefaction begins about an hour after start-up.

Now while I'm not building an LN2 system, this was precisely my point in having a liquefied-refrigerant reservoir. The start-up times for my system will be horrendous. Having a dewar to pull refrigerant from would shorten that time significantly.

Shingoshi

SexyMF

08-15-2009, 10:00 PM

What you are asking to do is in the commercial league. I work in a lab. We have looked at LN2 gas generators and LN2 liquid units. They are expensive but exist all the same.

I can only infer from the application you desire that:

- Since you are using 8 CPUS that your budget is large. Cooling anything 24/7 means you run a large risk of condensation (creeping beyond the CPU zone).
- You can afford to break expensive hardware

Cascade systems handling hundreds or watts are more power hungry and hence more expensive to run 24/7 than a LN2 unit.

You must weigh up the capital expense vs ongoing costs.
Unrockstars rig is a money sink and has only one head.

So give us something more to work with here. What is the application? Is it commercial or simply for 'bling' factor?

Shingoshi

08-15-2009, 10:39 PM

I can only infer from the application you desire that:
1.) - Since you are using 8 CPUS that your budget is large. Cooling anything 24/7 means you run a large risk of condensation (creeping beyond the CPU zone).
2.) - You can afford to break expensive hardware

Cascade systems handling hundreds or watts are more power hungry and hence more expensive to run 24/7 than a LN2 unit.

You must weigh up the capital expense vs ongoing costs.
Unrockstars rig is a money sink and has only one head.

3.) So give us something more to work with here. What is the application? Is it commercial or simply for 'bling' factor?
1.) My current system isn't intended to be cryogenic. I was simply asking the question here as to the possibility of cryogenics. The design that I'm working on is a chilled liquid-cooling system. I've already built a liquid-cooled four-processor system. I'm only now wanting to chill it as much as I possibly can. I'm attempting to find azeotropic solutions which can drop my freezing point down as close to ethanol's as practical.
2.) Hopefully won't break anything else.

I'm not following in Unrockstars footsteps here. I simply want an extremely chilled liquid-cooled system.

3.) My system is ultimately intended to be a software compilation server. A build engine if you will. I'm looking for something that can compile all of the packages needed in a Linux distribution (of my own making) in the shortest amount of time possible. Having experience with Gentoo Linux, I'm familiar with just how time intensive the "emerge system & emerge world" process is. I would like to have a machine that can complete that process in twenty-hours or less. As well as be used for community development, testing and research.

Shingoshi

[XC] gomeler

08-16-2009, 10:41 AM

Then I would suggest building a cluster to distributed the load or get a quad-socket AMD system(supports modest overclocking) or a dual-socket Gainestown(no overclocking). Mixing sub-ambient cooling with computers will always result in headaches and will in the end kill your productivity as you deal with the myriad of issues associated with it. Get yourself beefy air heatsinks and stay with air. You'll thank me down the road :)

Shingoshi

08-16-2009, 12:31 PM

gomeler;3963393']Then I would suggest building a cluster to distributed the load or get a quad-socket AMD system(supports modest overclocking) or a dual-socket Gainestown(no overclocking). Mixing sub-ambient cooling with computers will always result in headaches and will in the end kill your productivity as you deal with the myriad of issues associated with it. Get yourself beefy air heatsinks and stay with air. You'll thank me down the road :)
With all of the information on this site and others, I don't know why people keep complaining about condensation. I've already built and operated my quad-socket Tyan S4980 motherboard with an anticondensation layer properly applied. I used Koolance CPU-330 cooling blocks and ran the system sub-ambient. Ran just fine. So why the constant refrain about condensation? Yes, it takes some effort to apply. But anyone who can build a phase-change system is expected to have the skill to defeat condensation.

All of this reminds me of my neighbors French poodle. She never wants to go on the grass and get her feet wet! I can only laugh at her as she considers whether a snack on the grass is worth the effort (discomfort). And this sounds no different. Rose cracks me up every time!

Shingoshi
This is cool enough to be shared here: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3963780&postcount=39

EDIT: I've asked a question on another forum which I often used for scientific questions. It pertains to vortex tubes, which is one of my fascinations. I'm trying to find out there whether a vortex tube can condense a refrigerant without needing to use a condenser. It really comes down to how cold I can push the lowest temperature of the tube. If the temperature of the outlet drops proportionately to the inlet temperature, it should be easy to either liquefy or condense any refrigerants in the range of the temperatures reached. If increasing the pressure of the inlet increases the speed of the vortex rotation (as I suspect), an even greater amount of cooling should be obtained. Doing those things could result in a supercritical liquid refrigerant. Meaning the temperature would be colder than it's freezing point, while still being a liquid.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=12678#pid160080

[XC] gomeler

08-16-2009, 02:52 PM

My concerns about condensation are due to the sheer amount of hardware I have killed with sub-zero benchmarking. I live in Atlanta and I bench sub-zero typically on cascades and LN2. Take a peek at my hwbot profile in my sig, I probably have a few thousand hours experience gathered over ~4 years and I still kill hardware due to condensation. This is why when I say your system would be best on air, I really mean that. Guess I'm going to sit on the sidelines now and watch ;)

Pointhore

08-16-2009, 03:49 PM

sjg0

08-16-2009, 08:42 PM

With all of the information on this site and others, I don't know why people keep complaining about condensation. I've already built and operated my quad-socket Tyan S4980 motherboard with an anticondensation layer properly applied. I used Koolance CPU-330 cooling blocks and ran the system sub-ambient. Ran just fine. So why the constant refrain about condensation? Yes, it takes some effort to apply. But anyone who can build a phase-change system is expected to have the skill to defeat condensation.

All of this reminds me of my neighbors French poodle. She never wants to go on the grass and get her feet wet! I can only laugh at her as she considers whether a snack on the grass is worth the effort (discomfort). And this sounds no different. Rose cracks me up every time!

Shingoshi
This is cool enough to be shared here: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3963780&postcount=39

EDIT: I've asked a question on another forum which I often used for scientific questions. It pertains to vortex tubes, which is one of my fascinations. I'm trying to find out there whether a vortex tube can condense a refrigerant without needing to use a condenser. It really comes down to how cold I can push the lowest temperature of the tube. If the temperature of the outlet drops proportionately to the inlet temperature, it should be easy to either liquefy or condense any refrigerants in the range of the temperatures reached. If increasing the pressure of the inlet increases the speed of the vortex rotation (as I suspect), an even greater amount of cooling should be obtained. Doing those things could result in a supercritical liquid refrigerant. Meaning the temperature would be colder than it's freezing point, while still being a liquid.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=12678#pid160080

How can a vortex tube work properly if the refrigerant is condensing inside the tube? Surely that would screw up the mechanics of the vortex, no?

Shingoshi

08-16-2009, 09:26 PM

How can a vortex tube work properly if the refrigerant is condensing inside the tube? Surely that would screw up the mechanics of the vortex, no?
But since I saw that you wrote here, I think it best to answer this question for everyone else as well.

I intend to build another four-socket system. However I'm going to test my four Tyan S2912 motherboards first in the phase-change chilled liquid-cooled arrangement. Actually, those four boards amount to 8 cpus. If I add the Tyan S4992 as previously intended, that will potentially give me 12 processors in the same system.

I'm really needing to think through my actions more carefully. But I think I want the four Rechi compressors in my first, followed by the Danfoss SC18CLX.2. The Rechi's have 31cc combined, while the Danfoss is only @16cc. From what I understand of how it was explained, having multiple compressors in parallel will raised the volume of refrigerant provided to the second-stage compressor. It would be as though the second-stage compressor were operating under higher atmosphere. See this thread to understand how this was explained to me.
http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/viewtopic,p,255906.html#255906

Continuing, I think that I will have both stages work together as though they were only one single-stage. Let me see now if I can make sense of this to you. If you think of all the compressors working as the stages of a compressor in a turbine engine, you'll see how there is only one mixture passing through all stages. The only thing that's happening here is increasing the compression ratio of the turbine with each stage. But in my case, this might be like having a two-stage turbocharger with an intercooler between the stages.

I think I'm about to raise a subject here that I hadn't raised with you before. I have a fascination with vortex tubes. Look them up on Wikipedia. Now I'll continue with what I had already started writing below, before explaining myself here. :-)

However, if in testing I find that increasing the pressure of the inlet gas of a vortex tube (to @200psi) substantially increases the speed of rotation of the gas within it, I believe the result will be an increase in the performance/efficiency of the vortex tube. The object there being to cool my refrigerant between the first and second stages, without actually using a condenser. What I should see is an even greater transfer of heat from the core column of gas in the tube. Meaning it will be even cooler than otherwise at the same constant inlet temperature.

But then, if I compound this by also lowering the temperature of the inlet gas, the performance should be even more magnified. I may be able to get sub-zero inlet temperatures on the vortex, combined with the higher rotational velocities induced by the higher pressure. And since vortex tubes can be tuned to produce 90% of the inlet gas as cold outlet gas, I may be able to work with even colder gases than otherwise possible.

Testing for this would be as simple as running my compressed air through my liquid-cooled heat-exchanger.

Ok now I'll finish what I started to say above in my email to you.

Vortex tubes typically have an inlet temperature of 70F, with a working pressure of 100psi. The outlet temperature is @-30F, or lower. I've always wondered what happens if you change either of those.

1.) Increased pressure
I believe the vortex tube's function is dependent on the speed at which the gas within it rotates. Vortex tubes are what's known as "forced vortex" devices. Meaning the column of gas within it rotates as though it were a solid slug. The result is the outermost layer of gas draws heat away from the gas at the core. Because the outermost layer is expanding (excited molecules), while the innermost layer is contracting (less active molecules).

2.) Lowered temperature
It stands to reason that if the working inlet gas starts out being colder, the outlet gas should also be colder. How much, I don't know. But any improvement in dropping the temperature of the system is better than not doing so.

Now to answer your question about condensing the gas in the tube. My intent is to vertically orient the tube so that the cold outlet is pointing down. The hot end would be pointing up. With the inlet in the middle on the side.

As the gas begins to condense, it could easily exit the tube through the bottom. If in my case that gas is dumped into a second-stage compressor, you would have to be careful not to have condensation to the point of being a liquid. My primary intent here is to simply lower the temperature of the gas. I still want it to be a vapor when it enters the second-stage compressor.

I don't know what the lowest temperature is allowed to be for a compressor intake, provided the refrigerant isn't a liquid. But the cooler the inlet temperature, the less work will need to be done to condense the gas out of the second-stage compressor. I may be able to expand all the component gases in a single evaporator. And that raises another idea which I've yet to describe.

EDIT: Please see this link to visualize how the refrigerant may exist as both vapor and liquid inside the vortex tube. I'm thinking the central column may be a liquid, while the outer layer may be vapor. But again, I don't want a liquid going into the second compressor. I think what I want is a supercritical liquid, as explained here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gVzL2pc0Gg

Shingoshi

ultralo1

08-17-2009, 09:06 AM

I think what I want is a supercritical liquid, as explained here.

You are way off. The supercritical liquid was acheived by raising temp and pressure.

Try supersaturated vapor instead.

Shingoshi

08-17-2009, 10:06 AM

You are way off. The supercritical liquid was acheived by raising temp and pressure.

Try supersaturated vapor instead.
Yes!! You're right...
I knew when I was writing this that I probably meant something else. I just couldn't remember the chart correctly. And I was too lazy to go back and watch the video.

My fault!
Shingoshi

SexyMF

08-17-2009, 04:35 PM

EvoCarlos

08-17-2009, 04:39 PM

i think i have found a soultion :)
http://techgage.com/images/news/intel_corei7_cooler_092308.jpg

sorry im taking the plss :):rofl::rofl::rofl:

Shingoshi

08-17-2009, 05:40 PM

What are the physical constraints for this project?

Is this an ATX case setup or rack mount?
Have you considered the noise from the vortex setup?
Power draw for the vortex setup?
Budget?

I'm all for people trying things but your goal of faster compilation times can be achieved but a processor farm and air cooling, for a lot less risk and money.

In the first instance I reckon you should test our this vortex business and let us know what happens.
The system is completely enclosed. The internal dimensions are 42"x22"x15". I already have most of my large components inside the case now.
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6913/dsc00009cnz.th.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6913/dsc00009cnz.jpg)
And to show the sheer capacity of this case!
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7770/dsc00010daw.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7770/dsc00010daw.jpg)
Those clear tanks will be coming out of the case, and possibly mounted outside if used at all.

1.) The vortex tubes will be muffled by the heat-exchangers they will be dumping the hot gas into.
2.) There will be two heat-exchangers.
3.) First heat-exchanger will cool the gas coming from the compressor.
4.) Second heat-exchanger will be my evaporator, for cooling my liquid.
5.) The vortex tubes will connect my two heat-exchangers. Refrigerant outlet (of first HX) to Refrigerant inlet (of second HX).
6.) The cold outgoing liquid from the second heat-exchanger will cool the processors.
7.) The return liquid from the processors (still being very cold) will enter the first heat-exchanger to cool the gas coming from the compressor.
8.) The slightly warmed liquid from the first HX will be re-cooled by the evaporator.
8.) The gas leaving the final vortex tube will be directed back to the condenser.

That's how all of the heat in the system will dumped outside of the case. Once that gas leaves the condenser, it will come back to the compressor and complete the process.

Shingoshi

ultralo1

08-17-2009, 06:36 PM

Shingoshi

08-17-2009, 06:52 PM

I must be stupid, I need a drawing, schematic, or something. I cant quit grasp what you are doing. It doesnt have to be a picture or a component layout of the case, just a plain ole drawing showing how you intend for this thing to go together and work.

Yes I have read the thread.
I've spent most of the day trying to think this through. I've been looking for a program to draw my schematics so others could understand what I'm doing. I haven't found an easy program to use. If any of you use Linux (my operating system) and know of a good simple application to do sketches like this, please let me know. I really haven't had need of this before.

Shingoshi

SexyMF

08-17-2009, 11:13 PM

Do you need a faster rig to compile the appropriate program? :ROTF:

[486]

08-18-2009, 01:21 AM

Vortex tubes? If you do this I'm pretty sure this'll be the first non commercial time they've been used on computers.

Good luck!:up:

Shingoshi

08-18-2009, 02:59 AM

;3966164']Vortex tubes? If you do this I'm pretty sure this'll be the first non commercial time they've been used on computers.

Good luck!:up:
Vortex tubes are already used for cooling components. I don't think I would be the first to use one in this manner. But if that is the case, that could be interesting. The thing is, I'm also having to incorporate eductors into this design as well. I need the eductors to provide additional circulation in the system.

I believe I will have all the pressure I need to manage the various components (eductors and vortex tubes). With four compressors in parallel on the first stage, and one compressor in the second stage, I will have substantial volume and pressure to work with. So I shouldn't have a problem here. Especially when you consider that vortex tubes can be tuned to produce 90% of their output as cold gas. That means that with two vortex tubes staged together, you can obtain 99% efficiency from the pressurized system.

The first vortex tube would only dump 10% of it's input back out as heat. Drawing that heat (which will be much reduced by the temperatures of the first heat-exchanger) back into the first eductor means it will barely raise the temperature of the gas entering the first eductor. And if the inlet temperature of the first vortex tube is sufficiently low, the heat output will be lowered as well. You could wind up with a situation where the "heat" from the first vortex tube is low enough to actually equal (or be lower than) the gas temperature from the compressor entering the first eductor. Granted, that's likely optimistic. But the temperatures could be very close indeed.

And because the volume of heated gas produced by the first vortex tube is only 10%, there will be a greater volume/mass of gas entering the first eductor from the compressor to cool it. But that cooling would only be required if the vortex tube heat is greater than the motive gas entering the eductor. Driving that combined mixture into the second vortex tube is where the real cooling takes place.

The heat output of the second vortex tube will only be 1% of the total gas in the system. That's calculating 10% (second-stage) of the 10% (first-stage) loss from the first vortex tube. So that heat can also be reabsorbed into the flow of the first eductor without significance.

The image below shows the typical operating parameters of a vortex tube. You'll notice that the inlet temperature is given as +70F. I'm hoping that by dropping the inlet temperature, all temperatures in the vortex tube will drop accordingly. I'm also hoping that by increasing the pressure of the inlet, the rotational speed will also be increased. If either of these turn out to be true, I may get an inlet temperature of 0F or lower by cooling the compressor gas with the cold liquid output coming from the processors. Because even with 12 processors in the system, I wouldn't see more than a 40 degree rise in temperature in the cooling liquid. And given that -40F is the working temperature of a standard vortex tube without inlet cooling, I don't think these assumptions are unreasonable.

All of this means that the temperature of the gas entering the inlet of the second vortex tube would be sub-zero. Even without any of the performance enhancements I've outlined here, a -40F inlet temperature on the second vortex tube will produce extremely low temperatures. And since vortex tubes function much like peltier devices, the cold flow out of the second vortex tube could be under -100F.

Remember, I 'm driving the second vortex tube with the cold output of the first vortex tube. That means the second vortex tube's inlet temperature will be no higher than -40F. I don't know about the rest of you, but I would be VERY HAPPY with performance like that.

Shingoshi

Shingoshi

08-18-2009, 10:53 AM

I think this post answers all of my needs regarding this project.

http://rc.danfoss.com/TechnicalInfo/literature/manuals/06/sc18clx2_r404a-r507_220v_50hz_06-2005_ed400m202.pdf

Max. condensing temperature continuous (short) °C 50 (60)
Max. winding temperature continuous (short) °C 125 (135)

That would be around 325psi continuous and 418psi short .
The Danfoss SC18CLX.2 will be the final stage. Providing the pressure I need to overdrive the vortex tubes.
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9732/tube.gif
The only thing I need to know now is, whether the second-stage Danfoss SC18CLX.2 in combination with four parallel Rechi compressors in the first-stage can provide 35 CFM.

Shingoshi

[486]

08-18-2009, 02:58 PM

Vortex tubes are already used for cooling components. I don't think I would be the first to use one in this manner.

I have never heard of anyone using them for computers, there was one guy that talked about it a bit back, but never really did anything of it...

Shingoshi

08-18-2009, 04:27 PM

;3967191']I have never heard of anyone using them for computers, there was one guy that talked about it a bit back, but never really did anything of it...
Are you sure I wasn't THAT guy! I've been on this for a while.

The idea of spending a lot of money on something you're not sure of, or don't fully understand, can be daunting. Personally, the first time I read about vector tubes I knew immediately how to use them. The only issue for me now is, spending $320 on two tubes. They will have to wait until at least October before I'm able to allot the money to that purchase. But given their importance to my project, I will ultimately have to get them. And the next purchase after that will be my two eductors.

I can do initial testing with just the vortex tubes. The eductors are also important, as they will provide for the feedback of the expended heated gas. Without them, the system performance will be reduced. Besides, the eductors will provide for silencing the vortex tubes as well. Feeding the heated gas from the vortex tube back into the suction of the eductor will create a closed-loop from which no sound will be emitted.

It will be interesting to see if the cold output of the second vortex tube is near -110F lower than the inlet temperature, as it is for the first vortex tube.
1.) First-stage vortex tube: 70F inlet + -110F = -40F cold outlet
2.) Second-stage vortex tube: -40F inlet + -110F = -150F cold outlet

I want to take this opportunity to bring something else up. Based on conversations elsewhere, I'm beginning to believe that I won't need to use what we typically think of as a refrigerant. It is my belief that this system can function mostly on the compressed air as the working gas. Since air will not freeze at the temperatures that may be possible in this situation, it seems advisable to use it.

From chatting with the guys over at Spudfiles.com, I found out that many of them use refrigeration compressors to charge the propellant cylinders for their potato cannons. When doing so, they of course experience oil loss. They simply replace it in time. However, since my system will be a completely closed-loop, I will never have any oil loss or condensation issues that they must contend with. If it turns out that I need to assist in moving oil throughout the system, I can simply add a small amount of propane.

I may add other gases to assist in the performance of the vector tubes, but air will be doing most of the work. I'm looking for gases with molecular weights that are much heavier than air. The purpose for this is simple. In the vortex tube all of the gas in the system will be rotating at very high mach values. This will cause the heavier gas molecules to be tossed out to the surface of the vortex tube. And the lighter molecules will be forced to the center, by not being able to displace the heavier gas molecules. As a result of this, the heavier molecules will draw off heat at a much higher rate than would be the case with a single gas.

It is for this reason that I was first thinking of using R-744/Carbon Dioxide. However, drawing from memory I realize that SF6/Sulfur Hexafluoride is even heavier.
When SF6 is inhaled, the pitch of a person's voice decreases dramatically because the speed of sound in SF6 is considerably less than it is in air. This is a similar effect to that of Nitrous Oxide. As SF6 is five times heavier than air, it displaces the oxygen needed for breathing.
I may still use R-744 in the mixture, providing stages of separation between both of my vortex tubes. And I can even do something as radical as using R-704/Helium (for being so much lighter than air), to ensure that even lower temperatures can be achieved without ill-effect. The heavier gases will have been removed before having a chance to form ice.

We'll see if it works out that way or not.

Shingoshi

teyber

08-18-2009, 06:17 PM

I'm building a system for 24/7 uptime. And the system will have multiple boards in it. So for safety concerns, I want a means to allow for safe shutdown in the event of compressor failure. Given the amount of wattage I'm building for (@8 cpus), the processors would have no reserve to keep them cool in an emergency.

I was thinking that two benefits might exist here.
1.) Quicker startup times if any shutdown is required for maintenance.
2.) It might lower the overall compressor load. Like a tank on an air compressor.
EDIT: And this ties both of the above into a single concern. It would take a long time to bring the system up to capacity to handle the load of all the processors. It would take even longer if any graphic cards are included. Having the reservoir would eliminate that problem.

I would use a switch based on my system's activity led, which would turn the tank off only when the computer is actually down. That way if the compressor went offline for any reason, the system would still have a reserve of coolant.

Shingoshi

why would you want that, if a compressor fails the liquid held in the resevoir isn't going to cool any load and will run out almost immediately. Also what do you think that would do to your static pressures. You would need a ridiculously huge expansion tank which means a LOT more refrigerant and your talking 4 stages here soo your talking $$$. A lot more then whatever failed- and you would have maybe 10-15 seconds before your temps would be in the hundreds (positive) after the failure. nope, your not going to get to it in time. You would still loose all the $ in comp parts.

Instead just wire the main ac lines on a relay to the compressor, also a high/ low pressure cutoff to shut off power to the computer.

P.s. you need any hpco's? :up: :D (jk)

cheers\

p.s.s. i only read the first page or so so im sure this has been covered

p.s.s.s./edit votex tubes are incredibly inneficient loud et cetera.

Shingoshi

08-18-2009, 06:57 PM

why would you want that, if a compressor fails the liquid held in the resevoir isn't going to cool any load and will run out almost immediately. Also what do you think that would do to your static pressures. You would need a ridiculously huge expansion tank which means a LOT more refrigerant and your talking 4 stages here soo your talking $$$. A lot more then whatever failed- and you would have maybe 10-15 seconds before your temps would be in the hundreds (positive) after the failure. nope, your not going to get to it in time. You would still loose all the $ in comp parts.

Instead just wire the main ac lines on a relay to the compressor, also a high/ low pressure cutoff to shut off power to the computer.

P.s. you need any hpco's? :up: :D (jk)

cheers\

p.s.s. i only read the first page or so so im sure this has been covered

p.s.s.s./edit votex tubes are incredibly inneficient loud et cetera.
I'm pretty certain I said I wanted a reservoir for the sage shutdown of the system. And your argument doesn't take into account the size of the reservoir. It's no different than the size of the battery in your UPS. The larger the battery, the longer the system can run before shutting down. So, the larger the tank, the more reserve you have to work with. And I don't need a lot of time here. Typically, Linux systems shutdown very fast.

And then there's the issue of waiting for the cooling system to come up to capacity. Looking at freezers intended for deep cooling, they take a long time to reach full operational status. Having a reservoir (in this case a dewar) means that the system can startup sooner than otherwise. The reservoir would then be replenished while the system is running.
And when have you ever seen a scuba tank filled with refrigerated liquid-coolant evacuated in 10-15 seconds? Yeah, right!!

Shingoshi

[XC] gomeler

08-18-2009, 08:23 PM

Just to satisfy my curiosity, what is going to create the pressure differential to move the refrigerant from this gigantic reservoir through the metering devices and through the evaps when the compressors are off? Depending on the system equalizing itself? Not certain which gas you have planned for this reservoir concept, but like Teyber said have you accounted for the expansion of said coolant when it isn't chilled? There is a reason we try to keep our post-HX volumes to a minimum, for a scuba tank of liquid R744 I hope you have a couple dozen scuba tanks as expansion tanks :)

wdrzal

08-18-2009, 10:30 PM

I think you are a confused on numbers your giving on vortex tubes..........You say 90% is cold or can be realize to get 90% cold cooling power out the cold side ,90% of the mass flow goes out the hot side. So you have 10% mass flow providing the 90% cooling power. Its cold air,just not a high volume of it.

I did afew short test with air @ 250psi ~35cfm and reached -30c on the cold side but only ~5cfm was discharged,the other ~30 cfm went out the hot side. Can't recall the maximium temperature delta between the hot & cold sides., and I never calculated the BTU's of the cold side.

The lower the temperature on the cold discharge,the lower the mass flow on the discharge & that equals less cooling power.

I Tested a few with air from 100psi to 500psi (limit of my air compressor) and found that even that my compressor had a refrigerated dryer ,over 150 psi they iced up since my dryer wasn't rated past 17cfm @ 175psi. so all the tests over 200 psi I bypassed the dryer so not split the tubes and the test runs only lasted a few min. before ice froze the outlet.

Previously I only seen them used on air but theorized using a refrigerant like R22 would produce a better COP than air.

They are no miracle device like you think, I was looking @ gaining a few % in performance by using a gas other than air .There not going to justify the cost & added complexity and I think your calculations and understanding of performance is way off.

Shingoshi

08-18-2009, 11:41 PM

I was wondering when you would say something! :rofl:

I think you are a confused on numbers your giving on vortex tubes..........You say 90% is cold or can be realize to get 90% cold cooling power out the cold side ,90% of the mass flow goes out the hot side. So you have 10% mass flow providing the 90% cooling power. Its cold air,just not a high volume of it.

I did afew short test with air @ 250psi ~35cfm and reached -30c on the cold side but only ~5cfm was discharged,the other ~30 cfm went out the hot side. Can't recall the maximium temperature delta between the hot & cold sides., and I never calculated the BTU's of the cold side.

The lower the temperature on the cold discharge,the lower the mass flow on the discharge & that equals less cooling power.

I Tested a few with air from 100psi to 500psi (limit of my air compressor) and found that even that my compressor had a refrigerated dryer ,over 150 psi they iced up since my dryer wasn't rated past 17cfm @ 175psi. so all the tests over 200 psi I bypassed the dryer so not split the tubes and the test runs only lasted a few min. before ice froze the outlet.

Previously I only seen them used on air but theorized using a refrigerant like R22 would produce a better COP than air.

They are no miracle device like you think, I was looking @ gaining a few % in performance by using a gas other than air .There not going to justify the cost & added complexity and I think your calculations and understanding of performance is way off.
This always bugged me! I wrote one of the companies some time ago, and they never responded. That would have cleared all of this up to begin with. I kept wondering if I was reading this correctly or not. It just kept coming across as though most of the air could be produced as cold. I guess it kind of makes sense now.

In order to draw off more heat, you'd have to release more air through the hot side. And with that high a volume of hot air, you would never see the performance required for heavy cooling. I guess if I were made of nothing but money, I could always drive that hot air through a turboexpander. But I don't have that kind of money. Thanks for saving my pocketbook!

But now let me ask this.
1.) Were you afraid of splitting the vortex tubes?
2.) Did the cooling effect increase with inlet pressure?
3.) Were the driers or the tubes icing up internally?
4.) Was this tested in a closed-loop? Or were you letting the air escape to atmosphere?
5.) Did you use a heat-sink on the hot end? I've read that's what you're supposed to do.
6.) Was the freezing due to moisture in the air supply? Because a closed-loop would have no moisture in it.
7.) Were the vortex tubes exposed to the ambient atmosphere?
8.) Did you make any attempt to insulate the vortex tubes?
9.) Did you make any attempt to precool the inlet temperature?
10.) What would happen by cooling your air supply through a HX?
11.) What about using a gas like Helium?

About my last question. If you used two gases where one molecular weight was much heavier than the other, wouldn't the heavier gas draw off more heat in the vortex tube while needing a reduced mass?

But most importantly, I need to know if your test system was an open-circuit? That would influence things and introduce complexities that wouldn't occur in a closed-loop.

Thanks,
Shingoshi

Shingoshi

08-19-2009, 01:40 AM

Both of us took to the idea that vortex tubes would be good at producing cold. And in that, we were both wrong, as you have already proven. So what would happen if we concentrated on the things that everyone here knows they're good at. Producing heat and noise.

A turboexpander, also referred to as a turbo-expander or an expansion turbine, is a centrifugal or axial flow turbine through which a high pressure gas is expanded to produce work that is often used to drive a compressor.[1][2][3]

Because work is extracted from the expanding high pressure gas, the expansion is an isentropic process (i.e., a constant entropy process) and the low pressure exhaust gas from the turbine is at a very low temperature, sometimes as low as −90 °C or less.

Turboexpanders are very widely used as sources of refrigeration in industrial processes such as the extraction of ethane and natural gas liquids (NGLs) from natural gas,[4] the liquefaction of gases (such as oxygen, nitrogen, helium, argon and krypton)[5][6] and other low-temperature processes.
And unlike the vortex tube, all of the gas going into a turboexpander is coming out cold.

Let's focus for a moment on the amount of heat vortex tubes can produce. And the intensity of sound isn't to be ignored either. Because sound at high volume is nothing more than strong pressure waves. Pressure waves can be amplified as well. Instead of trying to lower the inlet gas temperature going into a second stage tube, what if we concentrated on raising it. Simply done by directing the hot exhaust of one vortex tube into the inlet of another.

Vector tubes will raise the temperature of the inlet gas from 70F, to 230F. How much more would the noise be amplified? It produces more mass of heat than it does of cold. The comparison is a 160F rise of heat versus 110F drop in cold. So what would happen if the second vortex tube's inlet was 230F? What would the outlet temperature be then? Maybe 390F? Have you ever heard of steam detonation? We wouldn't have to worry about the sound level of the first tube, because it would be silenced by the second. If we then drove the heated outlet gas of the second vortex tube through a venturi injector and into a turboexpander, we would have a very high flow rate of heated high-pressure gas. Which could then be expanded and cooled.

The venturi injector or eductor would create a very strong suction. In the process the mass of the flow would be increased. The turboexpander would receive an even larger mass of gas entering it. So, can you stage turboexpanders, the way you can stage venturis and vector tubes? The industry is already aware of staging injectors to increase the power of their suction. By doing so, they are able to create very powerful vacuums. Remind me here, what happens to the temperature of a fluid subjected to an extreme vacuum?

Would it be possible to create an alternative of a multi-effect vacuum generator? We would have both the heat and the suction to create one. Again, all of this could be moot. Because if turboexpanders don't work the way I think, we might still wind up producing more heat than cold. I have to look closer at the mechanics of turboexpanders to see how they really work. Having been wrong once, makes me not want to do so again. So if you know something here that I need to, fill me in. Please!

My line of thought here is on:
1.) Turboexpanders
2.) Thermoacoustic refrigeration
3.) High-energy vacuums.

Now I'll go back and crawl into my corner.
Shingoshi

ultralo1

08-19-2009, 05:27 AM

I want to take this opportunity to bring something else up. Based on conversations elsewhere, I'm beginning to believe that I won't need to use what we typically think of as a refrigerant. It is my belief that this system can function mostly on the compressed air as the working gas. Since air will not freeze at the temperatures that may be possible in this situation, it seems advisable to use it.

However, since my system will be a completely closed-loop, I will never have any oil loss or condensation issues that they must contend with. If it turns out that I need to assist in moving oil throughout the system, I can simply add a small amount of propane.

Air + Propane + closed loop + heat + pressure= Darwinism in action

Please try this and tell us the results.

You seem to be very adept at googling. We have all been impressed with your search engine skills.

Have you ever worked with phase change? Have you ever worked with refrigerants? Have you ever built a Phase unit, repaired an AC unit, put freon in your car?

You seem like an inteligent person, but you really have no idea what you are talking about here. You are jumping from one thing to the next with out a basic understanding of the refrigeration system or the various components needed. You have been told by several people here that your idea is a waste of time for the application. I am no computor person but I know enough that when these people tell you that it is a nogo then it is a NOGO.

My line of thought here is on:
1.) Turboexpanders
2.) Thermoacoustic refrigeration
3.) High-energy vacuums

The expense is not worth the return.

Shingoshi

08-19-2009, 08:31 AM

Yeah, I was just blowing a bunch of hot air before. Maybe this will cool things off!

1.) The hot end of the vortex tube MUST be completely sealed.
Doing that allows all of the working gas to produce cold.
2.) The hot end MUST dump all of it's heat into a heatpipe.
The heatpipe MUST be a thermosiphon.

A thermosiphon requires no mechanical energy to dissipate heat. The fluid of the thermosiphon needs to be extremely volatile. A mixture of acetone and ethanol would work just fine for this. As long as you can dump the heat faster than it's generated, the vortex tube will function properly. Producing nothing but cold gas.

Shingoshi

Documentation:
AN INVESTIGATION OF THE EFFECT OF THE HOT END PLUGS ON THE .... (http://jestec.taylors.edu.my/Vol%202%20Issue%203%20December%2007/211-%20217%20Arjomandi.pdf)
Refrigeration Patent (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7565808.pdf)
Experimental Study the Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube (http://alexandria.tue.nl/extra2/200513271.pdf)
Dual Vortex Tube (https://secure.vortec.com/store_products.php?catID=13&prodID=69)

Moc

08-19-2009, 09:46 AM

You seem like an inteligent person, but you really have no idea what you are talking about here. You are jumping from one thing to the next with out a basic understanding of the refrigeration system or the various components needed. You have been told by several people here that your idea is a waste of time for the application. I am no computor person but I know enough that when these people tell you that it is a nogo then it is a NOGO.

Oh thank you for write this. That are exactly my thoughts!
This thread is a waste of time.

At first, build a normal single stage and then think of building such a huge system. And please, say on the ground...

[XC] gomeler

08-19-2009, 09:48 AM

Air + Propane + closed loop + heat + pressure= Darwinism in action

Please try this and tell us the results.

You seem to be very adept at googling. We have all been impressed with your search engine skills.

Have you ever worked with phase change? Have you ever worked with refrigerants? Have you ever built a Phase unit, repaired an AC unit, put freon in your car?

You seem like an inteligent person, but you really have no idea what you are talking about here. You are jumping from one thing to the next with out a basic understanding of the refrigeration system or the various components needed. You have been told by several people here that your idea is a waste of time for the application. I am no computor person but I know enough that when these people tell you that it is a nogo then it is a NOGO.

The expense is not worth the return.

You're much more polite than me :D

sdumper

08-19-2009, 10:24 AM

You guys are cracking me up...

SoddemFX

08-19-2009, 10:48 AM

Awesome threads, a continual source of entertainment for all.

Tom

SexyMF

08-19-2009, 08:37 PM

A custom built gravity return heat-pipe would do you good. Four heads is fine. You can have the hot side mounted to an oversized HSF combo.

Shingoshi

08-19-2009, 10:06 PM

I apologize to all of you for my not doing my homework FIRST! I'm now reading as much as I can find on the assorted topics mentioned here. Your annoyances have been well deserved. And I'm sorry indeed.

A custom built gravity return heat-pipe would do you good. Four heads is fine. You can have the hot side mounted to an oversized HSF combo.
For the sake of clarification, on which component(s) are you suggesting this be applied?

Shingoshi

[486]

08-19-2009, 11:20 PM

No problem, I've been known to do the same thing, my posts from a few years ago at hardforum shows this quite well.

1.) The hot end of the vortex tube MUST be completely sealed.
Doing that allows all of the working gas to produce cold.
2.) The hot end MUST dump all of it's heat into a heatpipe.

How does this even work? If the hot end was sealed no heat would transfer from it, as no air would move in it.

Postal Dude

08-20-2009, 12:22 AM

He's suggesting that another form of cooling be attached to the hot side of the vortex tube. So that the cold air gets fed out the cold side, followed by the 'hot' air which has been cooled by another coing device attached to the hot side of the vortex tube.

This would no work as the vortex used to extract heat from the air in the first place cannot be formed unless the hot air is allowed to escape from the hot side

Shingoshi

08-20-2009, 01:03 AM

;3969420']How does this even work? If the hot end was sealed no heat would transfer from it, as no air would move in it.
See this link which I posted above. There has already been research done on this for testing purposes.
Closed Hot End Studies (http://jestec.taylors.edu.my/Vol%202%20Issue%203%20December%2007/211-%20217%20Arjomandi.pdf)
But here's where I'm headed with this. Adjust the vortex tube to produce it's highest efficiency in cold gas production, and attach a coiled (or straight) tube to the end of it. It would have the appearance of the windings all of you use for capillary tubes. The refrigerant will now move into the coiled (or straight) end which will act as your heat-sink. But by the coiled (or straight) tube being blocked, the vapor in the tube should cool and return to the vortex tube.

Right now you caught me in the middle of researching this through. I said before that there needs to be a heat-sink attached to the vortex tube. I was thinking of how the Koolance LN2 evaporator works. Let's say we drilled a hole into the base of something like that device and passed the end of the vortex tube through it. Making sure that the device was sealed/brazed, it can now be used as the evaporator for this purpose. I said all of that to say we need a cooling jacket around the end of our vortex tube. But instead of using a mixture of acetone and dry ice, we'll use benzene acetone and butane. The mixture of benzene and acetone I believe is azeotropic. And both of these dissolve butane. Our azeotrope in this situation is for the absorption of the butane. What we will end up with is an absorption refrigerator, where the vortex tube is the heat source (instead of a flame as is commonly done). If the boiling point of that azeotrope is too low, we could likely use acetone and acetic acid (commonly known as vinegar).

The azeotrope will allow the butane to evaporate, causing the liquid to cool. That is the means of our thermosiphon/heatpipe. There is no further need for input energy, since we are using what would have been energy wasted by the vortex tube.

Once the refrigerant is cooled in the length of the coiled (or straight) tube, it will have nowhere else to go but back into the vortex tube itself. Forgive me. I've just combined two separate ideas in one description. Sorry for the confusion I know I have caused here. So let's try and clarify. I went back and edited this to help.

I don't know yet which is the better structure for the heat-sink. Whether is should be coiled like a capillary or straight. I'm questioning whether the vortex flow would be interrupted or decelerated by the coil itself. A straight tube seems to be better. But the only thing that does matter here, is that the refrigerant is not allowed to escape from the vortex tube's hot end. That refrigerant must have all of it's heat drawn off and returned to the main flow.

And this won't be as much of an issue as it seems. Because I've already stated the refrigerant needs to be cooled before entering the vortex tube inlet. But I have modified that idea even further. What I'm thinking now, is not to try and replace what we expect from our refrigeration cycle, but to simply augment it. So our refrigerant flow would work as follows:
1.) Condenser
2.) TXV or capillary tube.
3.) Vortex tube
4.) Heat-exchanger (vortex tube directly connected here)

Since the evaporator already absorbs heat from the object to be cooled, the vortex tube can augment that function. The vortex tube will make our refrigerant even colder than it would have been before. We simply drive the now extra cold refrigerant from the vortex tube into our heat-exchanger.

I hope that makes sense. If not, I know some of you will point it out.

Shingoshi

SexyMF

08-20-2009, 01:28 AM

I was meaning you could make your own heat-pipe heatsink to go onto the CPUs. Of course it isn't super cool, but it is custom.

ultralo1

08-20-2009, 08:00 AM

1.) Condenser
2.) TXV or capillary tube.
3.) Vortex tube
4.) Heat-exchanger (vortex tube directly connected here)

What size TXV or cap tube?
What refrigerant?
How many CFM at what pressure do you need fro the vortex to operate?
How many CFM do yo anticipate through the HX?
WIth the "hot" end of the vortex tube sealed, how are you going to get enogh "hot exhaust" to have flow? Dont tell me that the heat sink will be enough, It wont.

I am not asking these questions to help you along with your "project". I am asking you these questions to show you that you are missing some basic understanding of refrigeration. You should stop using your superior google fu for this advanced cooling system and put it to work on your basic understanding of refrigeration. If you dont believe me when I tell you that you need this, then please start buying parts and assembling this unit. Then you can tell me I was wrong.

Here it is in BIG Letters

Crawl, Walk, Run

You are trying to do a marathon at this time.

Shingoshi

08-20-2009, 12:11 PM

What size TXV or cap tube?
What refrigerant?
1.) How many CFM at what pressure do you need fro the vortex to operate?
2.) How many CFM do yo anticipate through the HX?
3.) WIth the "hot" end of the vortex tube sealed, how are you going to get enogh "hot exhaust" to have flow? Dont tell me that the heat sink will be enough, It wont.

I am not asking these questions to help you along with your "project". I am asking you these questions to show you that you are missing some basic understanding of refrigeration. You should stop using your superior google fu for this advanced cooling system and put it to work on your basic understanding of refrigeration. If you dont believe me when I tell you that you need this, then please start buying parts and assembling this unit. Then you can tell me I was wrong.

Here it is in BIG Letters

Crawl, Walk, Run

You are trying to do a marathon at this time.
I listed the above strictly as an abstraction. It's simply a flowchart.

Answer #1:
Vortex tubes are available in numerous sizes for different capacities.

Answer #2:
The CFM rate through the HX will depend on the capacity of my compressor chain. The simple answer is, all of my refrigerant will pass through the HX.
(http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/5505/dsc00011kds.jpg) [IMG=http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/8661/dsc00012ikv.th.jpg] (http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/8661/dsc00012ikv.jpg) [IMG=http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2443/dsc00015lnk.th.jpg] (http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2443/dsc00015lnk.jpg)

Answer #3:
Take a look at the image here. You'll all notice the vortex tube has a 30mm inner diameter.
[IMG]http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/2017/experimentalvortextube.jpg
Now notice that tests were done on plugs ranging in size from 26 to 30mm. That means the tube was tested completely blocked at 30mm. That was done to establish a baseline for comparison.

Figure 4 shows the cold mass fractions when different plugs were tested. In
this figure, Ap/At is the ratio between plug area and tube cross section area. As it is
seen the cold mass fraction increases from 0.17 to 1 when Ap/At changes from
0.75 to 1 which is the result of varying the plug diameter from 26mm to 30mm.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8320/coldmassfractionvsplugs.jpg
That 1 at the extreme right indicates the plug condition when completely blocked.

Did you bother to download any of the documents I listed above?
So if you don't mind, I'll get back to my google fu now!

Shingoshi

ultralo1

08-20-2009, 01:47 PM

Speaking only in generalities

BUt you want exact details from the members here. IE

But now let me ask this.
1.) Were you afraid of splitting the vortex tubes?
2.) Did the cooling effect increase with inlet pressure?
3.) Were the driers or the tubes icing up internally?
4.) Was this tested in a closed-loop? Or were you letting the air escape to atmosphere?
5.) Did you use a heat-sink on the hot end? I've read that's what you're supposed to do.
6.) Was the freezing due to moisture in the air supply? Because a closed-loop would have no moisture in it.
7.) Were the vortex tubes exposed to the ambient atmosphere?
8.) Did you make any attempt to insulate the vortex tubes?
9.) Did you make any attempt to precool the inlet temperature?
10.) What would happen by cooling your air supply through a HX?
11.) What about using a gas like Helium?

Why should we answer your questions when our questions get answered "Speaking only in generalities". Believe it or not people here will actually help you build this thing if you will actually stop posting and start brazing. Show some progress or else it is a waste of our time trying to help you. This entire thread is nothing more than your "My ideas are good" thread.

I listed the above strictly as an abstraction. It's simply a flowchart

No it is not "simply a flow chart" it was a BASIC parts diagram in writing. Finally we could actually visualize where you were going to put the vortex tube in the loop. Since you want give us a schematic, because you dont have an app for it, and all you are giving anybody is stock downloaded photos, how is anybody supposed to follow what you are doing? You keep giving "downloadable links" thinking that we want to do the amount of research you have. WE DONT. If you have noticed that the person doing the most posting in your thread is you, then you might be the only one extremely interested in this.

Bottom line,
If you want help, stop posting, start building. Then people will flock over here to help and give encouragement. Until then be prepared to be a source of amusement for others.

Regards,
ME

sdumper

08-20-2009, 02:22 PM

Bottom line,
If you want help, stop posting, start building. Then people will flock over here to help and give encouragement. Until then be prepared to be a source of amusement for others.

Regards,
ME

Amen brother

Naja002

08-20-2009, 02:35 PM

Personally, I would like you to stop editing your posts (#31, 56, 59) plus at [H]F and deal with this issue here:

Post #53--http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1034511180&postcount=53 (http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1034511180#post1034511180)

If you have time for all this BS....then you have time to prove you accusation or admit your mistake. Right now, you are looking pretty slimy....:down:

Naja002

08-20-2009, 03:04 PM

Nice of you to come online, edit post #59 and not have any response, reply.....nothing. Nothing over at [H]F either. Your true character is coming out....:yepp:

Naja002

08-20-2009, 03:08 PM

And again on #59 now at 6:06pm. You got time for this....You got time to straight out the issue....:yepp:

Shingoshi

08-20-2009, 03:10 PM

teyber

08-20-2009, 03:10 PM

yer man as ultralow said, so many people have been in the forums over the years with big ideas and big projects and 99% of them don't happen so people tend to not get too interested. Once people start to think that you are actually going to build this, you will see a lot more help, a more interest, and a lot less criticism. And then you could shut the criticism up with your finished product.

Just peice of advice, pretty much just re-wording what ultralo1 said :)

Naja002

08-20-2009, 03:23 PM

You want me to start building (so you can have something to look at) without knowing what the parameters of the system must be before doing so. That helps a lot. I'm sure I would never succeed without advice like this.
[IMG=http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9858/dsc00008kni.th.jpg] (http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9858/dsc00008kni.jpg) [IMG=http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2443/dsc00015lnk.th.jpg] (http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2443/dsc00015lnk.jpg)

Shingoshi

Thank You, Shingoshi (http://www.acrochordus.com/shingoshi.htm). :up: I will take your lack of desire to prove your claim as exactly what it is: You Can't. :up:

And I will take your lack of desire to step up to the plate and admit your mistake as a simple showing of what a Cowardly POS you really are. (http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1034511180#post1034511180) :up:

You have been fully active on both forums. You are fully aware of the situation. Your actions speak for themselves. :yepp: Thank You. :up:

eligray

08-20-2009, 03:41 PM

To be honest man, I get the impression that you don't know how all of these theoretical scientific principles would actually apply to your system.

If I started throwing around all sorts of physics terms when asking advice on how to boil an egg, it would make people roll their eyes.

Can you let us know WHY you want to change the proven effective approach to refrigeration?

Shingoshi

08-20-2009, 03:49 PM

These are the liquid-cooling parts from my quad-socket build which this new system is going to replace.
[IMG=http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/9716/starbase64sq18cpx.th.jpg] (http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/9716/starbase64sq18cpx.jpg) [IMG=http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3843/dsc00017r.th.jpg] (http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3843/dsc00017r.jpg) [IMG=http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1033/dsc00018rxr.th.jpg] (http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1033/dsc00018rxr.jpg)

Shingoshi

ultralo1

08-20-2009, 05:43 PM

You want me to start building without knowing what the parameters of the system must be before doing so. That helps a lot. I'm sure I would never succeed without advice like this.
[IMG=http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9858/dsc00008kni.th.jpg] (http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9858/dsc00008kni.jpg) [IMG=http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2443/dsc00015lnk.th.jpg] (http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2443/dsc00015lnk.jpg)

Shingoshi

We are back to Crawl, Walk, RUN.

For example if you would go ahead and built the systems, minus the vortex tubes, you have accomplished several things:
1; gained an understanding of the basic system
2: Gained a proven test bed for your expirements
3: Gained a base line of performance to compare future changes to
4: Learn how to select the correct components for the basic system

You already have the most of the major components for a basic system. So build it. That would get past the Crawl and walk. Once you have done this then changing the system over to the vortex will be simple for you.

(so you can have something to look at)

Not on your best day. You aint that good and never will be.

Shingoshi

08-20-2009, 07:22 PM

How can a vortex tube work properly if the refrigerant is condensing inside the tube? Surely that would screw up the mechanics of the vortex, no?
This was found inside one of the files I posted here for others to read.

In 1988 Balmer [19] applied liquid water as the working medium. It was found that when
the inlet pressure is high, for instance 20∼50 bar, the energy separation eﬀect still exists. So
it proves that the energy separation process exists in incompressible vortex ﬂow as well.

In 1979 steam was used as working medium by Takahama [17]. In 1979, two-phase propane
was used as the working medium by Collins [18]. It was found that when the degree of
dryness1 of the liquid and gaseous propane is higher than 0.80, a signiﬁcant temperature
diﬀerence maintains. With two-phase working medium, the degree of dryness is an important
parameter, when the degree of dryness is larger than some critical value, energy separation
occurs.
This states that the dryness of the gas is essential. So compressed gas like that used in scuba tanks is necessary for the proper testing of vortex tubes. Any other method will only produce the results as described by one of the posters here.

Tests were actually done with particulate solids in oil. The vortex tube is very versatile indeed.

Shingoshi
Further information of interest:
Non-freezing vortex tube (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5749231.pdf)
This one's just for fun!!
VORTEX TUBE LASER (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3646475.pdf)
And directly to the point of cryogenics
Cryogenic computer system with parallel multiple cooling temperatures (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20060185379.pdf)
And I think this is what I was ultimately looking for!
Double inlet arrangement for pulse tube refrigerator with vortex heat exchanger (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6442947.pdf)

sdumper

08-20-2009, 08:59 PM

This is a fun thread to watch but I'm loosing interest.

ultralo1

08-20-2009, 09:19 PM

This is a fun thread to watch but I'm loosing interest.

Kinda like watching a train wreck.

I just cant figure out if its in slo mo or loop :D

sdumper

08-20-2009, 09:44 PM

Kinda like watching a train wreck.

I just cant figure out if its in slo mo or loop :D

I vote for loop :up:

Shingoshi

08-20-2009, 09:50 PM

The following research and patent proves the idea that I've stated. That using the heat of the vortex tube can be applied in a practical manner to assist in the actual cooling process. The heat of the vortex tube is used to drive a pulse refrigeration cycle.
This is what I was ultimately looking for!
Double inlet arrangement for pulse tube refrigerator with vortex heat exchanger (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6442947.pdf)
The heat and sound are combined to produce a rapid compression/decompression wave in a chamber. That alternating wave functions like a sterling engine, but with no moving parts. The result is the heated gas is cooled and sent back into the vortex tube. This is a common feedback device. AND IT WORKS!!

Shingoshi

sdumper

08-20-2009, 11:16 PM

Naja002

08-20-2009, 11:20 PM

Are you actually going to build something and if so when?

Shingoshi (http://www.acrochordus.com/shingoshi.htm) is on a fixed income, so he can only squander x-amount of $$/month. My advice would be to just go ahead and pencil this in for one of your retirement activities....:up:

teyber

08-21-2009, 09:13 AM

shingoshi we can't see that

EvoCarlos

08-21-2009, 10:33 AM

by the time its done it will look like this :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/INdustrial_piping.jpg

Moc

08-21-2009, 12:13 PM

I guess it will look like this beauty :D :
http://img.tomshardware.com/de/2006/03/25/potenz_protz_mit_potenzial_pentium_ee_965/ee965_cooler.jpg

Shingoshi

08-21-2009, 02:15 PM

Google > (two-stage Sanyo R-744 compressor)

EDIT: After reading this thread (Ethylene and auto-c) (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1817282#post1817282), I see that there are underlying reasons why some are eager to reject any attempts to reach extremely low temperatures. The dismissal by some of any validity in a "-100C club" would automatically obligate you to dismiss any attempt for a cryogenic cooler. The main thing to remember here is that I'm not looking to simply prove that I can do it. I want a working system that runs 24/7. That by definition removes any basis of argument as to whether the system is properly loaded. No one builds a system to be run unloaded for 24/7. That just doesn't make sense.

And now that that has been said, I wonder if the two-stage compressor above for R-744 would provide the pressures necessary for R-1150?

Shingoshi

Shingoshi

08-21-2009, 08:50 PM

This was posted to one of my questions elsewhere on the web for this topic. It pertains to the issue of lowering vortex tube outlet temperatures in response to inlet temperatures. And like the person said who left this for me, I leave it up to the rest of you to interpret the data.

Gas Liquefaction Using A Ranque_Hilsch Vortex Tube: Design Criteria and Bibliography (http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/16105/07771761.pdf?sequence=1)
This is precisely my intended application.

EDIT: As the performance of the vortex tube is rated by the ratio of pressure between it's inlet and cold outlet, dumping the cold outlet into a vacuum increases the performance of the vortex tube. This can be simply achieved by applying the suction of another compressor to the line the vortex tube's cold outlet feeds into. Going from a positive pressure to a negative pressure consequently will have greater effect in achieving deep cold temperatures. These lowered temperatures can be used in liquefying some gases.

EDIT: The rest of you really need to read the paper above. It is well written and easy to understand. It will give everyone a better understanding of the parameters that are being discussed here. Then a process of collaboration can begin.

EDIT: I would suggest reading this as well. Joule-Thomson Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule%E2%80%93Thomson_effect)
This introduces the performance gains in the system through the use of venturi injectors in conjunction with vortex tubes.

Shingoshi

teyber

08-21-2009, 09:29 PM

sounds like you found what you need lets see mocking up and layout eh

Shingoshi

08-21-2009, 10:34 PM

sounds like you found what you need lets see mocking up and layout eh
I simply want to make sure that I have the proper implementation before setting about spending money. There are so many variables in the different designs, that they must be fully understood to apply them in combination.

In the process of my reading, I have indeed found that lowering the inlet temperatures lowers the outlet temperatures (on both ends: hot/cold). And this is most easily accomplished by using them in stages just as is done here with cascades. This can be further enhanced by using a heat-exchanger to lower the initial inlet refrigerant temperature as well. Previously, I only thought about cooling the inlet. And now thanks to the comments of Wdrzal, I know I must also lower the heated outlet flow as well. But now I'm working on the plumbing to cool the hot outlet refrigerant temperature so that it can be fed back into the stream feeding the vortex tube. Doing that will produce great benefit in our application here. It will achieve significantly lower temperatures than any of us have anticipated before.

EDIT: This is the effect I'm attempting to accomplish: Carl von Linde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_von_Linde) Key Inventions

His apparatus for the liquefaction of air combined the cooling effect achieved by allowing a compressed gas to expand (the Joule-Thomson effect first observed by James Prescott Joule and Lord Kelvin) with a counter-current heat exchange technique that used the cold air produced by expansion to chill ambient air entering the apparatus. Over a period of time this effect gradually cooled the apparatus and air within it to the point of liquefaction.

All of this centers on how I plumb the heat-exchanger with the vortex tubes connected to it.

Back to work!
Shingoshi

Shingoshi

08-22-2009, 12:39 AM

Moc

08-22-2009, 05:27 AM

And you don't think its better to build a normal SS first?

Postal Dude

08-22-2009, 06:31 AM

And you don't think its better to build a normal SS first?

+1

Build and tune a normal SS 1st. 1 stage can be a pain in the ass to get right, what your proposing sounds like a nightmare on paper, in practice i can see alot of wasted money and a broken heart trying to get this setup

wdrzal

08-22-2009, 07:26 AM

When I'm all done with this, it's going to look a miniature oil refinery inside my Pelican case. Especially now that I'm beginning to count up the required components. I think I'm just about there for a working model of how to do this. The parts I see as needed are follows:
4x Rechi Compressors (Already acquired)
2x Danfoss Compressors (September?)
1x External Condenser
4x Heat-Exchangers (At least!)
>>>2x M60 HX 3/4" FPT (http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=he60m) I already have one of them. 2nd in October?
>>>2x S30 HX 1/2" FPT (http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=he30s) One following each compressor stage. > November?
2x Vortex Tubes > December?
2x Venturi Injectors > January?

Yeah, this will take a while.
Shingoshi

6 compressors + 8 cpu's How many watts is that to reject ? You said 1 external condenser/w/fan, how big is that.

Can you draw a simple line drawing with all that's listed above connected to each other:confused:. Just square blocks and lines,nothing fancy. Then label what they are.

Oh one more thing since this is going to be a "Cryogenic" cooler, how are you going to deal with oil freezing ?

Naja002

08-22-2009, 08:07 AM

Oh one more thing since this is going to be a "Cryogenic" cooler, how are you going to deal with oil freezing ?

Walt, you're always worried about details. :shrug: He'll just wrap the compressors in electric heat blankets and that'll fix that. :up: With the extra wattage he'll lose a few degrees, but a good shot of extra R744 will take care of that. :yepp: See? Now wasn't that easy...... :up:

SoddemFX

08-22-2009, 08:26 AM

The rest of you really need to read the paper above. It is well written and easy to understand.

Unlike your posts, which i would describe as several hundred lines of meandering diatribe culminating in 12lbs of horse sh*t and three dozen confused readers.

I frankly have no idea what you are trying to do. I have received more comprehensible correspondence from Mr Obuwonga Mwahahu, who i believe wishes to give me a 10% share of his $12M fortune held in the royal bank of Nigeria.

Tom

gosmeyer

08-22-2009, 08:35 AM

^Classic^

tiborrr

08-22-2009, 09:33 AM

Unlike your posts, which i would describe as several hundred lines of meandering diatribe culminating in 12lbs of horse sh*t and three dozen confused readers.

I frankly have no idea what you are trying to do. I have received more comprehensible correspondence from Mr Obuwonga Mwahahu, who i believe wishes to give me a 10% share of his $12M fortune held in the royal bank of Nigeria.

Tom

Instant Classic :hitself:

ultralo1

08-22-2009, 10:03 AM

That is destined to be sig line material, Can I use it?

CmB

08-22-2009, 10:03 AM

quintus

08-22-2009, 10:27 AM

Maybe Shingoshi should be banned till he dows something usefull and not BS-ing this forum.

Shingoshi

08-22-2009, 10:44 AM

Provided they could handle the pressures involved, how difficult would it be to modify them to function as condensers?
http://images.marketplaceadvisor.channeladvisor.com/hi/78/78360/fmic-32-1003_g.jpg (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/32%22X12X3-UNIVERSAL-TURBO-INTERCOOLER-ECLIPSE-GSX-GST-SI_W0QQitemZ110398820661QQcmdZViewItem)
I would use two of these to dump this system's heat.

EDIT: Actually, I've figured this out on my own! None of the refrigerants will ever leave the internal environment of the case. Instead, I will isolate the high-pressure refrigerant stream by using another set of heat-exchangers as my internal condensers. The heat from them will then be disposed to boil a transfer fluid which will be evaporated and sent to the external radiators. There will be little pressure on these external units. They will only act as very large radiators for very large heatpipes. Situation solved.

Assembly Components (Listed in order of assembly):
2x http://www.banjovalves.com/images/categories%5CTC181.2.jpg (http://www.banjovalves.com/3t-boltsshoseclamp331min362maxdia.aspx) 3" T-BOLT SS HOSE CLAMP 3.31"MIN/3.62"MAX DIA.
1x http://www.alscoplastics.com/v/vspfiles/photos/categories/84.jpg (http://www.alscoplastics.com/product_p/875-030.htm) PVC-80 SOC WYE
2x http://www.banjovalves.com/images/categories%5CTC181.2.jpg (http://www.banjovalves.com/3t-boltsshoseclamp331min362maxdia.aspx) 3" T-BOLT SS HOSE CLAMP 3.31"MIN/3.62"MAX DIA.
1x http://www.banjovalves.com/images/categories/HB200150.jpg (http://www.banjovalves.com/3mptx3hbpoly90deghosebarbbanjo.aspx) 3" MPT X 3" HB POLY 90 DEG HOSE BARB BANJO (http://www.banjovalves.com/specs/HB300-90.pdf)
1x http://www.banjovalves.com/images/categories%5CTF150V.jpg (http://www.banjovalves.com/3polyproepdmthrxthrblackbulkheadfitting.aspx) 3" POLYPRO/EPDM THR X THR BLACK BULKHEAD FITTING (http://www.banjovalves.com/specs/TF300.pdf)
1x http://www.banjovalves.com/images/categories%5CHB125.jpg (http://www.banjovalves.com/3mptx3hbpolystraighthosebarb.aspx) 3" MPT X 3" HB POLY STRAIGHT HOSE BARB (http://www.banjovalves.com/specs/HB300.pdf)
1x http://www.banjovalves.com/images/categories%5CTC181.2.jpg (http://www.banjovalves.com/3t-boltsshoseclamp331min362maxdia.aspx) 3" T-BOLT SS HOSE CLAMP 3.31"MIN/3.62"MAX DIA.

These parts may be changed if better options are found.
EDIT: This is the next sub-system to be built. I have to build this before anything else to verify that I can indeed get rid of all this projected heat.

Shingoshi

Shingoshi

08-22-2009, 10:54 AM

Maybe Shingoshi should be banned till he dows something usefull and not BS-ing this forum.
What more than this do you need to know that this project is a reality?
My case:
[IMG=http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9858/dsc00008kni.th.jpg] (http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9858/dsc00008kni.jpg)
Internal Components:
[IMG=http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7770/dsc00010daw.th.jpg] (http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7770/dsc00010daw.jpg) [IMG=http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/5505/dsc00011kds.th.jpg] (http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/5505/dsc00011kds.jpg) [IMG=http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2443/dsc00015lnk.th.jpg] (http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2443/dsc00015lnk.jpg)
[IMG=http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3843/dsc00017r.th.jpg] (http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3843/dsc00017r.jpg) [IMG=http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1033/dsc00018rxr.th.jpg] (http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1033/dsc00018rxr.jpg)
If that doesn't help you, I don't care what will!

And if anyone of you have better ideas of how to manage the requirements of this system with fewer components, let me know. I'd like to see a list of what you'd be willing to settle on to get by with less.

As for me, I'm still working.
Shingoshi

Shingoshi

08-22-2009, 11:02 AM

1.) 6 compressors + 8 cpu's How many watts is that to reject ? You said 1 external condenser/w/fan, how big is that.

2.) Can you draw a simple line drawing with all that's listed above connected to each other:confused:. Just square blocks and lines,nothing fancy. Then label what they are.

3.) Oh one more thing since this is going to be a "Cryogenic" cooler, how are you going to deal with oil freezing ?
1.) See the question above about my condensers.
2.) Working on that.
3.) I will be very content with a stable-state system running at -120F.

Shingoshi

Naja002

08-22-2009, 11:10 AM

ultralo1

08-22-2009, 11:11 AM

how difficult would it be to modify them to function as condensers

Why ask, you have not listened to anything that you have been told so far.

Shingoshi

08-22-2009, 11:17 AM

Why ask, you have not listened to anything that you have been told so far.
I should stop what I'm doing and not consider anything other than what I'm told to do...
Yeah, I'm not listening!

I willingly and graciously accept the choice of any person to stop following this thread.
Otherwise, I'm going to have way too much fun watching all of the complaints that keep streaming in.
That alone is worth you're sticking around!

Shingoshi

quintus

08-22-2009, 11:32 AM

Y dont u accept the fact that u run your mouth and dont do a damn thing!??!???!??????? SPAMER!!!
Build a single stage with your vertex-univers-black-hole-vacuuming ''compressor'' and then we will take u seriously;)

All the best,
q

SoddemFX

08-22-2009, 11:48 AM

That is destined to be sig line material, Can I use it?

By all means.

And if anyone of you have better ideas of how to manage the requirements of this system with fewer components, let me know. I'd like to see a list of what you'd be willing to settle on to get by with less.

It's a tough call but i think that you should limit your build to only using components made on the 18th moon of Saturn. In addition to this, bear in mind that technical literature can make or break a complex project such as this - so only use these components if they come with full documentation.

The last part is PPE (personal protective equipment) when you are working. Procedure for the construction of a normal system is to wear goggles and gloves but given the high level of complexity involved in a project such as this, i recommend that you wear a 2 x 2 x 6 foot steel enclosure with locks on both the inside and outside. Make sure the enclosure is bolted firmly to the floor and is situated in an unpopulated area.

Tom

Naja002

08-22-2009, 11:57 AM

The last part is PPE (personal protective equipment) when you are working. Procedure for the construction of a normal system is to wear goggles and gloves but given the high level of complexity involved in a project such as this i recommend that you wear a 2 x 2 x 6 foot steel enclosure with locks on both the inside and outside. Make sure the enclosure is bolted firmly to the floor and is situated in an unpopulated area.

Tom

Personally, Tom, that's a good idea, but at Shingoshi's skill level I think he should contact Troy Hurtubise @ Project Grizzly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENae4behwPw)

More video history of Troy's work. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3CzYw5-qdA)

gosmeyer

08-22-2009, 12:16 PM

It's a tough call but i think that you should limit your build to only using components made on the 18th moon of Saturn.

Tom

Pure enjoyment:D
I want to be a fly on the wall with Barrie, Dave, Paul, and Yourself in a Pub!!

teyber

08-22-2009, 12:32 PM

you are going to need at least $1k of oil seps

the parts collecting won't be done till at least january? common. just build a damn single stage..

EvoCarlos

08-22-2009, 01:00 PM

Personally, Tom, that's a good idea, but at Shingoshi's skill level I think he should contact Troy Hurtubise @ Project Grizzly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENae4behwPw)

More video history of Troy's work. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3CzYw5-qdA)

even project grizzly started at the bottom then evolveld thru time

mitsubishi i think its a good idea to build a small unit and improve on it over time
i have done this i started with a single stage and now build bigger stronger units

even god took his time :rofl:
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/sevncrea.htm

[XC] gomeler

08-22-2009, 01:07 PM

Shingoshi,

I really do enjoy reading your material more for the fact that it jogs some cogs into motion that haven't really rotated in a long time. I like that you are trying to explore other forms of refrigeration in an attempt to build a rather novel idea. However I see this gigantic project failing to even begin construction as you'll be overwhelmed by the sheer price.

A lot of us have said you should start simple. We aren't saying this because we want to distract you, hold you back, or prove that vertex-univers-black-hole-vacuuming devices are useless. I imagine most of us deep down would like to see some new builds but we know that there are basics that you need to cover before you foul up several hundred dollars in parts due to not knowing how to braze or utilize a shielding gas.

Grab one of those Rechis, a decent condenser, a suction line from Ron and maybe one of Teyber's new evaps and build a single-stage to start. 10 days piecing that together will give you a better idea of if you are up to this gigantic project you have proposed. If that works I'd then suggest tackling a simple two stage cascade and see if you can get that to run while holding a load. Get that settled in and then give your vertex-univers-black-hole-vacuuming devices a whirl.

Sure, it's going to be 6-12 months of knuckle bruising as you learn how to braze and tune these things but in those 6 months you'll learn WAY more than you can learn with Google. Google and Youtube can't teach you how to braze, you've got to royally screw up an evaporator first :D

Good luck, I want to see you succeed in 2010 after accomplishing this.

Walt, you're always worried about details. :shrug: He'll just wrap the compressors in electric heat blankets and that'll fix that. :up: With the extra wattage he'll lose a few degrees, but a good shot of extra R744 will take care of that. :yepp: See? Now wasn't that easy...... :up:

This wasn't serious right? The oil will be freezing in the evaporator, not the compressors. Still not sure if this was serious or another jab :shrug:

Unlike your posts, which i would describe as several hundred lines of meandering diatribe culminating in 12lbs of horse sh*t and three dozen confused readers.

I frankly have no idea what you are trying to do. I have received more comprehensible correspondence from Mr Obuwonga Mwahahu, who i believe wishes to give me a 10% share of his $12M fortune held in the royal bank of Nigeria.

Tom

oh my god.. I knew there was a reason why I like people from the UK. In ~50 words you managed to sum up several thousand :up:

Shingoshi

08-22-2009, 02:16 PM

Or more precisely, laying more boards out to make my case!
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3512/dsc00020f.jpg

I simply don't have the option to build something SIMPLE. It never was my intent to do so, and NEVER will be. As is evident, I already have the boards for this project. They need a home, and I have to build one. It's kind of like all of you telling me to move into a single room house, with FOUR kids!!

These are my FOUR Tyan S2912 motherboards. Each measuring 13"x12". They hold two processors each with 4 DIMM slots/processor. I have laid them out in the manner they will be assembled. Overlapping them as I have done here will allow me access to all processors for mounting my cooling blocks, while still being able to mount them in less than a 1U space in the top of the case. With all of my inexperience, it seems I'm doing just fine with the details of this project.

So if you're too impatient, too short-sighted and too unimaginative to comprehend why this project was undertaken, and that it's NOT going to change, I STRONGLY SUGGEST YOU SEEK COUNSELING, ELSEWHERE!!

Shingoshi

[XC] gomeler

08-22-2009, 02:49 PM

Have it your way. This is going to be fun to watch crash and burn :D

tiborrr

08-22-2009, 02:54 PM

Why the hell did thread describing propane purging got locked, deleted or otherwise removed, but this one, potentially fatal - stays? :shrug:

sjg0

08-22-2009, 03:35 PM

Why the hell did thread describing propane purging got locked, deleted or otherwise removed, but this one, potentially fatal - stays? :shrug:

That's what I would like to know...

ultralo1

08-22-2009, 06:00 PM

With all of my inexperience, it seems I'm doing just fine with the details of this project.

He is a legend in his own mind.

To the rest of us you are a chew toy, AKA a source of amusement for us to play with.

The answer to all your quetions is 42!!!!!!!!!!!!

CmB

08-22-2009, 06:08 PM

I can't wait to read about this project in Dave Barry's column (or some other humourist). Anyone want to guess at the Headlines?

teyber

08-22-2009, 07:08 PM

eligray

08-22-2009, 07:53 PM

so shingoshi, im trying to be civil so dont just skip over this for that reason lol.

You stated yourself for $ reasons you won't have all the parts till at least january. and most likely it will be further thn that as you didn't mention oil seps.

That leaves you ~ half a year, in which you said you won't build experience because the single stage won't cover your needs.

You are being very closed minded about this and you are underestimating the complexity of even the most simple of these units.

why don't you do as gomeler said them sell the builds for pretty cheap to fund the bigger projects, so that way you know you have the skill needed (er, well should) and the money to start the big project right after you sell the ss/cascade or w/e.

Or, get a big compressor, a very large cascade condenser, a danfoss tes2 and that 60 plate hx you bought and make a really big chiller. pipe it from a different room so size/heat/noise isn't an issue. TBH i bet you will have a very hard time getting that to work. and that would be 1/10000th as hard as what you are describing.

Just take these things to heart don't just say oh hes trying to discourage me or w/e. You have no idea what your getting yourself into and you will inevitably fail.

Cheers

+100

Shingoshi, I just built my first unit, and I can tell you that it's way too easy to overlook 98% of the work that will go into a project.

I also think that you should just get a large compressor, a large condenser, a Plate HX, and a TXV, and just make a chiller. You will almost certainly succeed with a chiller, and I'd honestly bet at 1:20 odds that your other system won't work out as planned.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a new type of cooling system; however, I don't think that you have the experience or knowledge yet to make one.

Make a beast of a chiller with say R134a, and be happy with it. It'll be reliable, semi-compact, almost certain to work, much cheaper, etc.

sdumper

08-22-2009, 09:57 PM

This thread is too funny :)

Shingoshi

08-22-2009, 10:53 PM

I'm pretty sure Jinu can attest to Cryo-tek's truthiness. Your posting in the same way that anyone could go "I count all of wd's post as bullsh** as I've never seen him post a picture or truly answer questions as direct as I'd like to see them directly posted."

As far as regassing a polycold, the unit DID NOT have a polycold mix of gases in it upon receiving.

sometime you can be made to beleive what is not true,because you your self don't know the truth.

I never posted a picture because I never built a rig to phase cool cpu's yet.
you don't have to beleive what I say either ,I can't force anyone.
I admit I haven't read the rest of this thread yet (EDIT: I have now). But I'm just curious if you've built a phase-change system since you posted this about three years ago?

For the record, I'm not cryo-tech. I will post pictures at every stage of my build, and they won't be blurry. EDIT: They will be as sharp as my Sony DSC-P32 allows. I will provide proof of everything I have accomplished. And whatever knowledge I don't have now, will be gathered as I proceed through my build. I will have the time to learn everything that I need to know. Especially as I'm now reading through the old posts here and elsewhere.

And since no one here actually knew this, let me be perfectly clear. I am a trained welder, arc welding and brazing included. In fact, I was a metal sculptor, any very meticulous. So your concerns for my lack of ability is completely unjustified. Just so you know...

Shingoshi

EDIT: The process of cooling the heated outlet refrigerant from my two-stage vortex tubes will probably be the greatest load in the system. And that load will be stable during the entire time that the system is running. Providing enough evaporation to condense my coldest refrigerant will be the system's first goal. Cooling my processors will essentially be incidental to the actual running of the system. So for the most part, cooling of my processors will be a by-product of the operational system. Meaning I will concentrate on condensing my lowest temperature refrigerant, and cooling my processors secondarily. This is specifically why I'm concentrating on building the refrigeration system as my highest priority.

EDIT: There is one major concern that I have in running a 24/7 server. And that concern is that the system can still operate, even at a diminished capacity if any one component fails. That's the major benefit of having four parallel compressors in my first-stage. If one of them fails, I have three more to fall back on. If the second-stage goes down, it won't be as much of an issue as the first-stage.

Naja002

08-22-2009, 11:16 PM

And since no one here actually knew this, let me be perfectly clear. I am a trained welder, arc welding and brazing included. In fact, I was a metal sculptor, any very meticulous. So your concerns for my lack of ability is completely unjustified. Just so you know...

Shingoshi

If your pictures reflect your skills from when you was a photographer, then, please, go ahead and get the bear proof suit. :up:

EDIT: They will be as sharp as my Sony DSC-P32 allows.

Forget the equipment. Your pix show a total lack of photography skillz. You can't blame that on the equipment. You're gunna need that suit, Shingoshi.

SexyMF

08-23-2009, 04:52 AM

Naja002

08-23-2009, 10:19 AM

This has turned rather sad. It is a sad reflection on almost all posters. You don't look good by bagging somebody else. They may be way off the mark but most of the comments now are just snide remarks made without even constructive criticism.

Yes it (not being quite sure of what it exatly will be) is grand - but just let the guy have a go at it.

Bagging the baggers really isn't helpful either. This thread has run it's "helpful" course-helpful, helpful via constructive criticism, helpful via criticism, helpful via humor, admonishment....gee, what's left? :shrug: Now it is simply at a wait-state. And humans, when left to wait, usually seek some form of entertainment for themselves.....:up:

Shingoshi

08-23-2009, 03:20 PM

This has turned rather sad. It is a sad reflection on almost all posters. You don't look good by bagging somebody else. They may be way off the mark but most of the comments now are just snide remarks made without even constructive criticism.

Yes it (not being quite sure of what it exatly will be) is grand - but just let the guy have a go at it.

In terms of a simple comment Shingoshi, you will need better grade tubing and reserviors to cope with low temp working liquid.
Frankly, I've found the constant attack(s) to be nothing more than I sign of gross immaturity. And as with all children, I simply choose to ignore nonsense like this. That having been said, I really wish to thank you for the recognition of this.

Shingoshi

Shingoshi

08-23-2009, 03:34 PM

Last night I went to bed thinking about this issue from another point of view. What's required for a turboexpander to work in a situation like this is predominantly it's size. I had initially investigated the use of small turbochargers for motorcycles having a displacement of 500cc. But I quickly realized the amount of flow through them would simply be too great for any system of this size. So then I thought about my old hobby, radio controlled aircraft. It dawned on me that if turbochargers existed for them, they would be properly suited for this project. So now I submit to all of you the following:
1.) RC turbo charger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Ymdn5XeV0)

2.) http://image2-4.rcuniverse.com/e1/forum/upfiles/169010/Su35824.jpg (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3080259/tm.htm)
3.) How to Make Turbochargers for Nitro Powered RC Cars (http://www.ehow.com/how_2042291_make-turbochargers-nitro-powered-rc.html)

Now that we've seen what one would look like, those of you who have the means (metal working materials) should now focus on how to produce one, instead of the constant rants about why this is impossible or implausible. Simply put, start being productive contributors to a working solution, instead of only wanting to detract from one.

Shingoshi

Gautam

08-23-2009, 03:57 PM

This has turned rather sad. It is a sad reflection on almost all posters. You don't look good by bagging somebody else. They may be way off the mark but most of the comments now are just snide remarks made without even constructive criticism.

Yes it is. If the thread bothers you then just ignore it. If the OP bothers you, put him on your ignore list.

If you don't have anything nice to say...

EvoCarlos

08-23-2009, 04:19 PM

There is one major concern that I have in running a 24/7 server. And that concern is that the system can still operate, even at a diminished capacity if any one component fails. That's the major benefit of having four parallel compressors in my first-stage. If one of them fails, I have three more to fall back on. If the second-stage goes down, it won't be as much of an issue as the first-stage.

but if one of the compressors were to fail in a link system then you would have big problems
compressor burn out would probbly destroy the other comps conncted as the contaimnats in the cycle would cause the problem or block the filter causing a system blockage ..

Naja002

08-23-2009, 06:28 PM

Now you're an RC pilot....:rolleyes:

Last night I went to bed thinking about this issue from another point of view. What's required for a turboexpander to work in a situation like this is predominantly it's size. I had initially investigated the use of small turbochargers for motorcycles having a displacement of 500cc. But I quickly realized the amount of flow through them would simply be too great for any system of this size. So then I thought about my old hobby, radio controlled aircraft. It dawned on me that if turbochargers existed for them, they would be properly suited for this project. So now I submit to all of you the following:
1.) RC turbo charger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Ymdn5XeV0)

2.) http://image2-4.rcuniverse.com/e1/forum/upfiles/169010/Su35824.jpg (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3080259/tm.htm)
3.) How to Make Turbochargers for Nitro Powered RC Cars (http://www.ehow.com/how_2042291_make-turbochargers-nitro-powered-rc.html)

Did you bother to read that thread, Shingoshi? The tubocharger does not work for their application--or as it's claimed. The thread is full of:

Post #9-- (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3080259/tm.htm)This is the biggest load of bull I have ever heard... You can't put forced induction on our nitro engines. It is impossible. This is because the exhaust port closes after the intake ports. If you look at the sleeve, you will see that the top of the exhaust port is higher than any other intake ports. Therefore when the piston is reaching the top of the stroke, pressure gained, if any at all, by your so called "turbocharger" would be forced out of the exhaust port. Therefore forced induction does not work on our nitro engines, not even the slightest amount.

Also, by having all of this blowby, you are not only waisting tons of fuel, but you are also eliminating the natural forced induction created by a tuned pipe. A tuned pipe creates backpressure. This is when the exhaust gases reach the end of the pipe and reverberate back to the engine. When an engine is running, some of the fresh air and fuel mixture is expelled out of the exhaust port. What the backpressure does however, is push this air and fuel back into the combustion chamber. Since all of the other ports excluding the exhaust are closed, this creates a natural forced induction. Have you ever wondered why our nitro engines run with much more torque and horsepower with tuned pipes instead of open pipes? This is also why tuned pipes can also be considered "low end" or "high end" pipes. This is mostly due to the shape and length of the pipe which causes the backpressure to be most efficient at different RPM ranges.

And since your "turbocharger" doesn't work and merely heats up your engine, I bet you will go much faster by sticking a nice tuned pipe on it and going back to air cooled.

Fools will always have foolish notions...

Post #26-- (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3080259/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm)The RBInnovations supercharger does not in fact "supercharge" RC engines. The extra air that is forced in through the carb merely blows out through the exhuast port as killer89 mentioned before. Therefore when the air and fuel is forced out of the exhaust, you are merely leaning the engine by taking away the fuel and replacing it with air. Therefore, instead of paying $180 for a heap of metal, you can just lean out your engine. Also you have to realize the supercharger is draining HP and torque from the engine by giving extra load to the engine to spin the vanes.

There's nothing positive in that thread.....:down:

Now that we've seen what one would look like, those of you who have the means (metal working materials) should now focus on how to produce one, instead of the constant rants about why this is impossible or implausible. Simply put, start being productive contributors to a working solution, instead of only wanting to detract from one.

Shingoshi

Once again, that's your job. You've not given anybody anything here, except words. Prove your own theories...:up: Buy, build or contract your turboexpander. Here's one that should fit your budget: Turboexpander (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBRZZi1M8fo&feature=related)

Might also want to take the time to read the comments on your "How to make a turbocharger" link. :p:

on 6/20/2007 Where the hell in this article does it tell you how to make a turbocharger for your RC nitro car????????? I am learning disabled and can't read....... or the author needs to let everyone know how to actually MAKE A TURBO, if he/she does not know how to do this, why in gods name are they allowed on a computer as they will surely gum up the keyboard with drool???

How to MAKE Turbochargers: (http://www.ehow.com/how_2042291_make-turbochargers-nitro-powered-rc.html)

Things You'll Need:

* RC supercharger
* Nitrous injection mechanism
* Charger heads
* Flywheels of the appropriate size
* Zip ties
* RC fuel line
* RC fuel cell
* Threadlocks

More smoke and mirrors....

Gautam

08-23-2009, 07:04 PM

Let me be more explicit. Stay out of this thread Naja.

runmc

08-23-2009, 08:30 PM

In all fairness to Shingoshi , I am going to leave this thread open for now. If the contents bother you, please stay away from the thread. Shingoshi is entitled to express his dream .

No more flaming

Shingoshi

08-23-2009, 09:02 PM

In all fairness to Shingoshi , I am going to leave this thread open for now. If the contents bother you, please stay away from the thread. Shingoshi is intitled to his dream even if most of us consider it spam.

No more flaming
I will attempt to give thorough information to justify my ambitions and claims here.

The first thing that needs to be pointed out, is that turbochargers do in fact work. There is no debate about that. The problem that exists with using them on nitro-fueled engines, is that those engines are predominantly two-stroke engines. Two-stroke engines simply cannot provide the exhaust pressure for turbochargers to function properly. YOU NEED A FOUR-STROKE ENGINE'S EXHAUST PRESSURE FOR THE OPERATION OF A TURBOCHARGER! I knew that before examining this subject. The point here is that it IS POSSIBLE to build turboexpanders small enough to meet the needs of a compressor, since the compressor IS providing the pressure required to drive a turbocharger. Additionally, the vortex tube's pressure and heat is what we're counting on here.

I will now go back and provide the edited comments to my last post to explain how this should work.

Shingoshi

runmc

08-23-2009, 09:06 PM

teyber

08-23-2009, 09:48 PM

an old saying goes:

when the horse is out of the stable, its time to get some hay.

Not sure what it means but its possible it applies here.

Shingoshi

08-23-2009, 10:07 PM

We need no explanation on whether your theory will work or not. If you want to post a project get on with it. No more theory or explanations please.
If you don't get on with the project, the thread will be closed.
It will take a while to gather some of the components. Unfortunately, some things cannot be constructed unless other parts are available. If I am in the process of gathering components, but can't always assemble them, am I to be constantly accused of not doing anything? I initially started this thread to simply ask a question. It was only after I started giving some answers as to why I believed this is possible, that I started getting a lot of criticism. In the process, I was trying to point out that some of the criticism was unjustified.

I didn't open this thread looking for or expecting to start arguments. I was simply wanting to know what had anyone done to attempt getting near-cryogenic temperatures for a 24/7 system. Ironically I find myself cornered into a position I might have otherwise not taken.

However, as of this weekend I've decided to focus on building the external heat dump, since this is the most critical component discussed so far. This one feature will be necessary no matter what direction I chose ultimately.

I'm sorry that showing that I've already started accumulating the components for this system isn't enough for some. But as someone here already derisively pointed out, I don't have the budget to acquire a large number of components at a time. You should simply know that I don't spend money on anything that I'm not committed to doing. I don't know what more to say than that.

Shingoshi

Shingoshi

08-25-2009, 02:53 AM

How to put compressors in parallel (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3980)
Parallel compressors single condenser (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19061)

Parallel Compressors System:
With a (parallel) rack system, the multiple compressors can stage on, off or unloaded
in cost-saving increments to match the ever-changing cooling requirements. (http://www.astech-vn.com/ASTECH%20rack.pdf)

Variable capacity multiple compressor refrigeration system (http://www.google.com/patents/download/Variable_capacity_multiple_compressor_re.pdf?id=Lq srAAAAEBAJ&output=pdf&sig=ACfU3U1tkjr3UqXjccdhdQQml7B2EQ1oYg)
EnergyEfficiency (http://www.leonardo-energy.org/webfm_send/1213)

Shingoshi

Postal Dude

08-25-2009, 03:49 AM

Shingoshi

08-25-2009, 04:25 AM

Hey dude.

With regards to your parallel compressor plan, noone has disputed its use for energy efficiency, it can and has been used to great success. What EvoCarlos pointed out was... You said that if one compressor failed then the system could carry on running with reduced efficiency. If you did run your unit in this state, various nasty gack from the burnt out compressor would be pumped through your system, potentially clogging a cap tube or other metering device, which could lead to a dangerous situation pressure wise.

I really and truley hope you build this and that it works well for you as it would open up new avenues for cooling. If it doesnt work, at least you'll have learnt alot in the process.
It's just that in reading on this issue elsewhere on this site, no one mentioned it. True, I may have missed it. After all, I haven't read every post on this entire forum. But let's just hope one of the compressors doesn't go down like you said. Because that would be a very bad situation, unless they could somehow be isolated from contaminating the other units.

Should I be more concerned by the fact that I'm using discontinued compressors. The Rechi's are brand new. And so are the Danfoss. However, the Danfoss are warehouse mishaps. Supposedly, they fell off the shelf on which they were resting. So it really comes down to just how durable do compressors tend to be.

And I know that I have likely looked very fickle through all of this. But there are simply too many things to consider and think I have the final answer. With that in mind, I'm thinking of creating two separate coolant loops divided between the Rechi (R-22) and Danfoss (R-404a/507) compressors. The reason is that I'm concerned that there won't be anyway to deal with the dissimilar lubricants required by each group. So I'm thinking of using one group for the external condenser, and the second group for the internal heat management. The only unit these two groups would share in common would be the M60 heat-exchanger I already have. From what I've read, it seems that I can use R-600a in the Rechi without any trouble. But then again, I may have missed something again. If that's not a problem, it comes down to whether the four of them could handle the load being dropped on them from the internal system requirements. I don't know.

It seems that being able to cool the R-404a lower than what it could get from simple air cooling would be a great benefit. Since the system would start out with less load on it. But once again, that's conjecture.

Thanks for pointing that out...
Shingoshi

EDIT: Look closely! This should give you a clue just how DIFFERENT I tend to be.
[IMG=http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/9323/doesthisgiveyouaclue.th.png] (http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/9323/doesthisgiveyouaclue.png)

tiborrr

08-25-2009, 05:05 AM

Different maybe, but that does not automatically mean you are competent. Just a thought.

teyber

08-25-2009, 08:52 AM

Shingoshi

08-25-2009, 12:37 PM

yeah man if a hermetic compressor burns out it will destroy ever component in the system. with 4 compressors or w/e you are 4 times as likely to have that happen.

What about instead of using those rechi's you use those huge 1hp copeland compressors that are used in commercial cascades?
I've seen them for sale on Ebay. And they are powerful indeed. The problem is the voltage. I live in an apartment, and I don't think the management would rewire my unit for a new 230V line.

That's why I've been concentrating my efforts on what I can achieve with 115v instead. For people who live in Europe, 230v isn't a problem. But here in the States, you don't typically see that high voltage unless you're in an industrial zone. I've thought about attempting to run 230v. But that would require that I use the line from my oven to power this system. There are logistical issues with doing that. The least of which would be creating ~30' power cord with a locking lead into the computer case. I had been thinking the refrigerator had 230v. But it seems it runs on standard household current. So I don't know about the viability of the higher current.

But I did think about it...
Shingoshi

EDIT: I'm going to search Google and see if Copeland even makes a 115v compressor. If they do, then maybe I can find one, once I know the part numbers to look for.

EDIT: Ok. Here's a list of the Copeland 115v compressors that I've found. I'll list this in order from the largest to the smallest.
1.) KAAB-007E-CAA-800
2.) KAMB-007E-CAA-800
3.) KAGB-005E-IAA-800
4.) KAMB-007A-CAA-800
5.) KAAB-007A-IAA-800
6.) KAGB-005A-IAA-800
7.) KANB-005A-IAA-800
(http://www.coldsupply.com/copeland/index.htm)
Clicking on any one of those links, will take you to the page where I got the data. You can see the refrigerants each model uses. If you want, tell me which refrigerant makes the most sense. The largest one of these uses R-404, which is the same as the Danfoss SC18CLX.2. I don't know how much larger that model is than the Danfoss. Because the Danfoss is pretty large itself, having a displacement of almost 18cc.

ultralo1

08-25-2009, 01:17 PM

Copelend RF41C1E-CAA-929, 115V

Shingoshi

08-25-2009, 01:29 PM

Copelend RF41C1E-CAA-929, 115V
Where did you find that one? I mean I could look. I'm going to look for it now! But if that's available on Ebay, that would be especially nice!

EDIT: I just looked. And Google turns up a blank page with nothing found. Are you sure you have the correct model number? On further examination, the Copeland I listed above as the largest 115v compressor, is simply too heavy for this application. It definitely seems to have a cast-iron frame. That may be expected for industrial applications. But for this one, it's not appropriate.

Shingoshi

ultralo1

08-25-2009, 01:51 PM

Are you sure you have the correct model number?

Yep. Shipping wieght 45LBS

[XC] gomeler

08-25-2009, 02:04 PM

What's the weight on the 4 rechis? I've got one of Copelands largest 110v reciprocating compressors sitting at my feet. Model number RS97C1E-CAA 1.5hp 115v-1ph 9590btu/h with a 20f evap and 120f condenser while pulling 1940 watts all in a 54lb package. Compare that to 4 rechis or 2 SC18s and I think the Copeland would be more compact and lighter. The only problem is the startup current.. going to need a 30 amp circuit to keep from tripping the breakers.

Shingoshi

08-25-2009, 02:22 PM

gomeler;3978726']What's the weight on the 4 rechis? I've got one of Copelands largest 110v reciprocating compressors sitting at my feet. Model number RS97C1E-CAA 1.5hp 115v-1ph 9590btu/h with a 20f evap and 120f condenser while pulling 1940 watts all in a 54lb package. Compare that to 4 rechis or 2 SC18s and I think the Copeland would be more compact and lighter. The only problem is the startup current.. going to need a 30 amp circuit to keep from tripping the breakers.
I had already determined that I shouldn't proceed with anything until I have the voltage issue worked out. Because even with the multiple units I currently (no pun) intended to use, amperage will still be an issue. So I really have to work on the current (again no pun) issue before I do anything else.

EDIT: This is definitely funny. In searching Google, I found one of the few links for that compressor to be one of yours. Odd Compressor Spec Question
(http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2890850&postcount=1)I'll have to read it now and see what you had to say there.

EDIT: MAN!! How did you get lucky enough to come by that compressor? I see it listed for $2,400 (http://store.mdtparts.com/ic561132494.html). Damn lucky indeed!

Shingoshi
EDIT: I just want to say thanks guys!

[XC] gomeler

08-25-2009, 02:50 PM

The wonders of ebay :) I can't wait to use it someday, I've had it for roughly 18 months just waiting for the perfect project to use this baby. I bet it won't even start when I finally do use it :p:

SoddemFX

08-25-2009, 02:59 PM

The first thing that needs to be pointed out, is that turbochargers do in fact work. There is no debate about that. The problem that exists with using them on nitro-fueled engines, is that those engines are predominantly two-stroke engines. Two-stroke engines simply cannot provide the exhaust pressure for turbochargers to function properly. YOU NEED A FOUR-STROKE ENGINE'S EXHAUST PRESSURE FOR THE OPERATION OF A TURBOCHARGER! I knew that before examining this subject.

http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/

Regardless, it doesn’t matter because the whole quoted paragraph was drivel.

The point here is that it IS POSSIBLE to build turboexpanders small enough to meet the needs of a compressor, since the compressor IS providing the pressure required to drive a turbocharger.

This sentence does not make sense. I think I understand what you are trying to say but I doubt that a normal refrigeration compressor will be able to provide enough flow rate and pressure to even spin an automotive turbine, let alone drive an effective cycle where work can be done in the turbine.

If you want, tell me which refrigerant makes the most sense.

How can anyone tell you which refrigerant makes the most sense when you haven’t listed any requirements. For the benifit of people who want to help you, it might be worthwhile to state these requirements.

This is because I have spent one hour of my life reading this thread and I have no idea what you are actually trying to do. The sad thing is that I will never get this hour back, it is gone forever… :(

Tom

Shingoshi

08-25-2009, 03:01 PM

gomeler;3978796']The wonders of ebay :) I can't wait to use it someday, I've had it for roughly 18 months just waiting for the perfect project to use this baby. I bet it won't even start when I finally do use it :p:
That's always been my biggest fear about doing business on Ebay. But after reading about the Danfoss compressors on this site, finding them out of stock at the time, I found and purchased the Rechi compressors instead.

Now, back to the "current issue" :rofl:, I found this (http://ra.danfoss.com/TechnicalInfo/Literature/Manuals/17/FRCC-PC-002-A2-02%20guide%20NTZ.pdf) for Danfoss. But again, it's 230v. Crap, I should live someplace else where I can do the things I need to without voltage problems. Do you guys have any ideas of how to get around this perplexity?

Shingoshi

Shingoshi

08-25-2009, 03:04 PM

http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/

Regardless, it doesn’t matter because the whole quoted paragraph was drivel.

This sentence does not make sense. I think I understand what you are trying to say but I doubt that a normal refrigeration compressor will be able to provide enough flow rate and pressure to even spin an automotive turbine, let alone drive an effective cycle where work can be done in the turbine.

How can anyone tell you which refrigerant makes the most sense when you haven’t listed any requirements. For the benifit of people who want to help you, it might be worthwhile to state these requirements.

This is because I have spent one hour of my life reading this thread and I have no idea what you are actually trying to do. The sad thing is that I will never get this hour back, it is gone forever… :(

Tom
The turboexpanders were only intended as a means to rechill the refrigerants leaving the vortex tubes. That was the only intended purpose for them. I have since moved on to other considerations. So I hope it doesn't distract you any further. Because I'm no longer thinking about it.

Vortex tubes on the other hand have the ability to drop a refrigerant's temperature without the typical need to expand other higher-temperature refrigerants in order to condense lower temperature refrigerants. That's the point you've missed. I'm sorry. I should have summed it up before so that some could get it. The idea is to have all of your condensed refrigerants in a single mixture (solution), so that when the evaporation process begins it will be continuous along an evaporation path until all refrigerants have evaporated. What is expected is, that the lower temperatures forced into the first-stage vortex tube (by using the evaporation process (path) to cool the upstream refrigerants), the lower the resulting temperatures from the vortex tubes will be. It produces a loop where the refrigerants going into the vortex tubes continue to drop. They would continue to go lower until they reach a point of equilibrium, where they go no lower. The was something that was observed in detailed studies by researchers on this topic, and revealed in numerous patents that have come about.

As far as the heat load goes. The greatest load in the system will be to rechill the refrigerants escaping the vortex tube's hot outlet. Typically, that heat is @230F with a 70F inlet temperature. But here again, if I lower the inlet temperature going into the vortex tube (@0C) to begin with, the hot outlet gas from it will be considerably lowered, as will the cold outlet temperature. My eight processors will produce no more than 600W for 8x75W AMD Shanghai cpus. There will no other major heat sources to contend with. But, at the most, the system will have approximately 1000W capacity for safe operation. But then, for all the comments about cooling the compressors as well, they must be considered also. For the purpose of cooling the case's interior, I'm thinking about using a plate evaporator (http://www.marine-super-store.com/posit/shop/index.php?selectedpartno=99041915), like the ones used for marine cooling boxes.

Shingoshi

EDIT: On the other hand, maybe the TURBOEXPANDER issue shouldn't be dead after all. I don't think I need to say anything other than this. And if it's not enough, that's your problem.
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3466/059b2dbd2a.jpg (http://www.hsturbo.de/en/home.html)
Microturbomachinery Patent (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6392313.pdf)

Shingoshi

08-25-2009, 05:20 PM

Claude Cycle

The Claude cycle is a widely used cooling process in refrigeration technology. It combines isenthalpic and isentropic expansion. A refrigerator based on the Claude cycle comprises a compressor at ambient temperature, a series of heat exchangers, an expansion turbine and a Joule-Thomson valve. The principle used is to expand a part flow of the process gas in the turbine and therewith cool it down ( isentropic expansion). The turbine part flow is then used to precool the main gas stream by the means of the heat exchangers. The precooled main gas stream is further cooled down by isenthalpic expansion via the Joule-Thomson valve.
Of course, that probably sums it up too much for you!

EDIT: In this case, the Joule-Thomson valve is replaced by the vortex tube.

Shingoshi

[XC] gomeler

08-25-2009, 05:26 PM

Curious, do you plan on building your own vortex tubes or is there a factory shelf part within the sizing that you would need for your application?

ultralo1

08-25-2009, 05:39 PM

As far as the heat load goes. The greatest load in the system will be to rechill the refrigerants escaping the vortex tube's hot outlet. Typically, that heat is @230F with a 70F inlet temperature.

How many BTUs/HR does this equal?
This is a needed value.

But here again, if I lower the inlet temperature going into the vortex tube (@0C) to begin with, the hot outlet gas from it will be considerably lowered, as will the cold outlet temperature.

How were you going to do this?

My eight processors will produce no more than 600W for 8x75W AMD Shanghai cpus

This will need to be added into the total heat load.

But then, for all the comments about cooling the compressors as well, they must be considered also.

Since the compressors will be enclosed within this case, all the heat load from the compressors will have to be transfered to the outside. To figure out how much wattage that is, take the voltage mutiplied by the RLA and add 10%.

Shingoshi

08-25-2009, 07:56 PM

gomeler;3979015']Curious, do you plan on building your own vortex tubes or is there a factory shelf part within the sizing that you would need for your application?
And especially in the sizes needed for this application. I've made it my point lately to start using Google to get as many answers as I can, without having to ask here first. So try doing a simple check of Google for "vortex tubes", and you will see firsthand just how much of a selection there is for them.

Shingoshi

ultralo1

08-26-2009, 04:32 AM

Do you just ignore questions or what?

Do you want help or not?

sdumper

08-26-2009, 08:39 AM

Do you just ignore questions or what?

Apparently so

Do you want help or not?

Apparently not and I also noticed he has started spamming other threads.

Shingoshi

08-26-2009, 12:29 PM

1.) How many BTUs/HR does this equal?
This is a needed value.
2.) How were you going to do this?
3.) This will need to be added into the total heat load.
4.) Since the compressors will be enclosed within this case, all the heat load from the compressors will have to be transfered to the outside. To figure out how much wattage that is, take the voltage mutiplied by the RLA and add 10%.
1.) That would have to be calculated. I've not seen any stats on the BTUs of heat output, because typically no one tries to rechill the heated gas leaving the vortex tube. Typically, it's just vented to the atmosphere. I need to first determine how low I can push the temperature of the inlet gas, before I can know at what point in the evaporation stream to cool the vortex tube's exhaust. If I do this in the wrong location, the cooling will be inhibited. But these are the numbers I have now for a typical vortex tube application:
pressurization inlet: 70F
heat outlet: 230F
cold outlet: -40F
A corresponding drop in inlet temperature will be seen in BOTH the heat and cold outlets. So if I can get the inlet temperature down to 0F using a heat-exchanger, BOTH of the outlet temperatures should drop by about the same amount.

The BTUs would have to be calculated based on the inlet pressure and flow rate in CFM to know what that number will be. I don't have that yet. I won't have the pressure and flow rates until I know for certain which compressors I will be using. The Danfoss compressors I was hoping to get are no longer available, again. I'm now looking for replacements. If I can figure out a way to use 230v, I've already found the compressor I could use.

2.) I'm running the exhaust heat from the vortex tubes through a heat-exchanger to pass that heat to the condenser.
3 & 4.) I plan on using the same kind of evaporators as used to be common in old freezers to cool the inside of the insulated computer case. I would rather build this system with an expected heat load of 2KW to be certain I have enough capacity to handle everything. I intend to use gel-packs from coolers to maintain the temperature, reducing the need for continuous cooling of the interior. Once the gel-packs are frozen, they will stabilize the interior temperatures more than if they weren't used at all. And the more packs used, the more stable the temperature.

Shingoshi

ultralo1

08-26-2009, 01:08 PM

I intend to use gel-packs from coolers to maintain the temperature, reducing the need for continuous cooling of the interior. Once the gel-packs are frozen, they will stabilize the interior temperatures more than if they weren't used at all. And the more packs used, the more stable the temperature.

I thought you were intending 24/7 operation. How are gel packs going to help with that?

The BTUs would have to be calculated based on the inlet pressure and flow rate in CFM to know what that number will be.

Thats not how BTUs are calculated nor heat load.

2.) I'm running the exhaust heat from the vortex tubes through a heat-exchanger to pass that heat to the condenser.

IS that the Marine coil like condensor that you talked about few post back?

I plan on using the same kind of evaporators as used to be common in old freezers to cool the inside of the insulated computer case.

Is this going to be a seperate refrigeration system?

2 Kilowatt-hour equals to 6828.85189927 Btu

You are undersized already.

Shingoshi

08-26-2009, 02:47 PM

As it turns out from discussing the issue of power with the apartment maintenance worker, all of the heating units here use 240v. I think that will take care of the issue of power usage. I just need to wait for approval to have the outlet installed. Hooray!

Shingoshi

Shingoshi

08-26-2009, 03:17 PM

I thought you were intending 24/7 operation.
1.) How are gel packs going to help with that?
2.) Thats not how BTUs are calculated nor heat load.
3.) IS that the Marine coil like condensor that you talked about few post back?
4.) Is this going to be a seperate refrigeration system?
5.) You are undersized already.
Simple question: Did you bother to look-up "vortex tube" on the internet? Because if you haven't done that, why do I have to keep explaining how they function to you. Frankly, I think you're looking for ways to be obstructive. But I'll try and answer your questions just the same.

1.) Do you even know what kind of gel-packs I'm talking about? They're the same as those used in camping coolers. Once they are frozen, they can keep an volume of space cool for a very long time. Having gel-packs in a freezer lowers the load on the freezer by not having to expend as much energy to maintain a given temperature. Because the gel-packs will resist heating better than the contents of the freezer.

2.) The amount of gas pumped through a vortex tube determines how many BTUs are produced in heat. But you need to know the vortex tube inlet pressure as well. Because the higher the vortex tube inlet pressure the lower BOTH outlet temperatures will be. And since I don't know for certain which compressor I will be using, I don't know how many CFM I will have to work with. Don't ask me any more questions about this until you have searched "vortex tube" yourself personally.

3.) The condenser I gave a picture of is an intercooler for a turbocharger. They are not the same. I thought about using the intercooler as a condenser because of it's volumetric capacity. Depending on how young you are, you probably have never seen the kind of evaporator that I'm talking about. They used to be external inside the freezer. Now, freezers are made with the evaporators inside the wall. They stopped using external evaporators about twenty-five years ago! You will only see them now in specialized environments. I think some combination mini refrigerator/freezers still use them. Like the small units that can sit on a desk or in a closet.

4.) I'm thinking of using the smaller compressors to provide sub-ambient cooling of the refrigerant from the larger compressor. So yes, it would be a separate refrigeration system. Although, I guess an inventive way of using a single refrigerant for both could easily be worked out. But there would still be only one external condenser for the entire system. The larger compressor would be using a heat-exchanger to pass it's heat to the exterior condenser.

5.) So if you think I'm undersized already, what do you think is an appropriate projected maximum load for this system as I have described it? Again, without knowing what my next compressor will be, how am I supposed to know the total load of the system? So what is the largest load you think I would be facing?

Shingoshi

tiborrr

08-26-2009, 04:55 PM

1.) Do you even know what kind of gel-packs I'm talking about? They're the same as those used in camping coolers. Once they are frozen, they can keep an volume of space cool for a very long time. Having gel-packs in a freezer lowers the load on the freezer by not having to expend as much energy to maintain a given temperature. Because the gel-packs will resist heating better than the contents of the freezer.
Dear Lord! I think someone just beaten the Zeroth-, First- and Second Thermodynamic Law. Who do you think cools down the gel packs initialy, perhaps magic dust? It might come as a shocker to you, but everything cooled by an evaporator is a HEAT LOAD.

Someone please for the sake of vapor phase change forums lock this thread ASAP. This used to be a serious forums.

P.S.: ultralo1 is the guy with I-Don't-Know-How-Many-Long-Years-Of-Field-Experiences in very low temperature refrigeration.

ultralo1

08-26-2009, 06:31 PM

Simple question: Did you bother to look-up "vortex tube" on the internet? Because if you haven't done that, why do I have to keep explaining how they function to you

Back at ya, did you bother to look up basic refrigeration? I guess its like trying to explain simple refrigeration to you.

Frankly, I think you're looking for ways to be obstructive.

Just how have I done that? All I have done is to point out some problems with your design ideas. If it and you cant stand up to little scrutiny then I suggest that you may want to go some where else to post. You see we have a few people here that are professionals. We help all we can and part of that is scrutinizing the designs.

1.) Do you even know what kind of gel-packs I'm talking about?

Unfortunatly thats what I was afraid you were talking about. Now if this is a 24/7 system when are you going to change them out? Where are you going to freeze them? These will not make it a self contained system like you have been telling us it will be.

2.) The amount of gas pumped through a vortex tube determines how many BTUs are produced in heat. But you need to know the vortex tube inlet pressure as well. Because the higher the vortex tube inlet pressure the lower BOTH outlet temperatures will be.

So you are going to raise the inlet pressure, and this will create a lower temp exhaust.

Basic physics: pressure equals heat period. Raise the pressure, raise the energy in the system.

Don't ask me any more questions about this until you have searched "vortex tube" yourself personally

A little snippy arent we. Are you having trouble standing up to a little scrutiny of your system. I have not asked you a single thing about vortex tubes.

I thought about using the intercooler as a condenser

I think you ment evap

4.) I'm thinking of using the smaller compressors to provide sub-ambient cooling of the refrigerant from the larger compressor. So yes, it would be a separate refrigeration system. Although, I guess an inventive way of using a single refrigerant for both could easily be worked out. But there would still be only one external condenser for the entire system. The larger compressor would be using a heat-exchanger to pass it's heat to the exterior condenser.

Let me see if I understand you:

The 4 rechies, in parallel and external to the case, will be providing the evap of the HX. This will be condensing the hot gas from the internal (to the case) comp. The condensed gas (liquid) will then goto a metering device which will discharge into the vortex tube. The refrigerant will then be split in the vortex tube. Some going to the exhaust side the other moving onto the internal (to the case) evap. This Colder output, from the V tube, is to be considerably colder than just the discharged refrigerant of the metering device.

The exhaust from the vortex tube will be condensed via a heat pipe, turbo expander, Turbocharger (:D) and fall back down through the vortex tube, via gravity, to be sent onto the evap and returned to the compressor via the suction side.

All heat load from inside the case will be reflected out through the external "retchi" cooling system.

Close? If it is then you are basically building a cascade system with the second stage being internal to the case with a V tube between the Metering device and evap.

5.) So if you think I'm undersized already, what do you think is an appropriate projected maximum load for this system as I have described it? Again, without knowing what my next compressor will be, how am I supposed to know the total load of the system? So what is the largest load you think I would be facing?

So If I am understanding you correctly:
Then your combined internal heat load of the case will be the
1: Internal comp
2: Condensing heat of the refrigerant for that system
3: MOBOs approx 600W total, Are the power supplies internal to the case also?
4: External heat infiltration
5: Not sure about the condensing system for the exhaust of the V tube. That was going to be external, right?
6: Is this going to be radiant cooling or are you going to have a circulating fan? If a fan you have to account for that in your heat load calculation.
7: What is the target temp for the interior of the case?
8: Whats the target temp for subcooling the liquid refrigerant of the internal comp?

I think thats got it for now.

PS. Thanks Tiborrr

Shingoshi

08-26-2009, 08:44 PM

I must really apologize for my twisting your arm into commenting here. I realize I've raised an issue you don't want to investigate. And I'm sorry you have no desire to understand it.

1.) I said the inside of the computer case is insulated. Did you see what I'm using for a computer case. It's a SEALED Pelican 1780 Transport case.
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9858/dsc00008kni.jpg) [IMG=http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7770/dsc00010daw.th.jpg] (http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7770/dsc00010daw.jpg)
2.) I'm basically turning that case into an INSULATED mini-freezer.
3.) The EVAPORATOR INSIDE the computer is what will cool the gel-packs.
4.) The gel-packs (once installed) will NEVER leave the inside of the case.
The deeper the temperature the gel-packs are frozen to, the longer it take for them to heat up:
[IMG]http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/9065/gel20starting20temps.jpg
Consequently the internal temperature will remain more stable over a longer period of time.

EVERYTHING that I've stated in this post, I've stated here before.

Physicists are still at a loss to explain why and how vortex tubes work. So don't quote me your understanding of physics, when those more qualified than you have no idea what's going on inside of one. Again, if you read about that, you would have seen that fact repeated in almost every place that vortex tubes are discussed by physicists. For crying out loud! Wikipedia would have told you this!

I meant exactly what I said about the intercooler. Just because I used the words INTERCOOLER and EVAPORATOR in the same sentence, doesn't mean I was talking about the same thing.

1.) I'm creating a separate cooling loop using the smaller compressors. Those four Rechi compressors will use the intercooler (because of the intercooler's sheer size) as their condenser. The evaporator for the external cooling loop will be the heat-exchanger for BOTH the warm internal refrigerant and the cooler external refrigerant will flow through. That heat-exchanger is replacing the condenser for the internal cooling loop.
I'm using the external condenser (the intercooler) and it's associated refrigeration system to cool the internal heat-exchanger and it's associated refrigeration system. The two separate systems only share the heat-exchanger in common.

2.) No, you don't understand me! If I haven't explained this well enough by now, I don't know what else to say. The four Rechis are inside the computer case. The only thing connected to the four Rechis, is the external condenser (the intercooler). And since I know you would like nothing more than to point out one intercooler is likely not enough, I already intend to use more than one. I just don't know yet if that will be two or four intercoolers connected to create one massive radiating body.

3.) The velocity of the gas that spins inside a vortex tube is relative to the pressure of the inlet gas. The higher the pressure, the higher the speed of rotation. The higher the speed of rotation, the greater the separation of temperature between the hot and cold gas leaving the vortex tube.

But you've made a good point. I've not seen exact numbers on whether the heated gas's temperature is lower or higher than before. It may be that the heated gas is at a higher temperature. In other words, I don't know if the change in temperature is equally divided between the cold and hot gases generated, or if the temperatures of both are lowered. But one thing is known, the cold gas generated by the higher rotational speed is much lower than with the typical pressure of 100psi.

4.) Instead of being sarcastic, if you read some of the documentation on vortex tubes I've posted here, you would have seen that this has already been done using turboexpanders or pulse-tubes. In one study, the vortex tube was connected to a pulse-tube, and the temperature of the heated gas was cooled and sent back into the stream. Turboexpanders do the same thing with temperatures much higher than what a vortex tube produces. In fact, turboexpanders are used to rechill superheated steam to sub-zero temperatures. Again, you probably haven't looked those up either. There's nothing of gravity to do with this, other than you wanting to be sarcastic!

5.) Snippy? Every question you've posted here depends on the function of the vortex tubes and their ability to cool gases.

6.) And let me REPEAT this again. The ONLY thing on the exterior of the computer case, is the CONDENSER.

7.) What I'm doing will resemble this somewhat:
http://www.emersonclimate.com/Divisions/RefCopeland/images/EL-cp_rf_products_scroll_clip_image004.jpg
http://www.emersonclimate.com/Divisions/RefCopeland/images/EL-cp_rf_products_scroll_clip_image004.jpg (http://www.emersonclimate.com/Divisions/RefCopeland/Products/scrollcompressor.htm)
An even better explanation would be this. Take this image above and duplicate it, having one image above the other (I've already done it, so you won't have to imagine it!). So the the condenser at the top of the bottom image and the evaporator of the top image is the heat-exchanger shared between them that I spoke of. That should hopefully make better sense. Because there are in fact two separate refrigerant loops at work here.

The (Rechi) compressor for the top image will be the external condenser refrigerant system.
The bottom image's condenser and the top image's evaporator are BOTH replaced by a SINGLE heat-exchanger between BOTH images.
The (Unknown) compressor for the bottom image will be the internal refrigerant system.
The topmost condenser is the only thing that's outside of the system environment.

I really have to apologize if English isn't your first language! I can understand then how reading English documentation would be a problem for you.

Shingoshi

teyber

08-26-2009, 10:32 PM

seems like bob-who-likes-to-work-on-his-car-on-weekends (or rather pretend he does) is trying to win a automobile argument with mr. porsche with personal attacks, woman's argument strategy (never be direct, never answer questions asked but rather bring up other questions), and random information being the only thing going for him

SoddemFX

08-26-2009, 11:58 PM

Looks like bob-who-likes-to-work-on-his-car-on-weekends bought a Haynes manual but wrote his car off with a "one spanner" task. Of course this is the fault of Mr Porsche who did not understand the complexity of bobs 5lb lump hammer...

Tom

tiborrr

08-27-2009, 01:36 AM

Don't know if it's funny or sad anymore.

Moc

08-27-2009, 02:50 AM

Why do you want to keep the compressors inside the case?

Stop reading docs about vortex tubes... just read this:
http://www.refrigerationbasics.com/1024x768/rb1.htm

wdrzal

08-27-2009, 03:55 AM

Shingoshi

Vortex tubes have a real low COP as DetroitAC has told you. Primarily the are used on compressed air & exhausted to slightly above 1 atmosphere,usually ~2 to~5psi. I looked at some of the ones you posted, one of the most powerful gave ~2600 BTU's @ 35CFM w/70 degree inlet. You even used the 35 CFM in one of our questions. So lets talk about 35CFM @ 100 psi. First realize there is no phase change happening in these vortex tubes.

I have tubes I use for cool suites and helmets for sandblasting & have installed some for a aerospace manufacturer who could not use traditional cutting fluid on the alloy being milled so their bits where air cooled.

In general @ 100 psi You get ~4 maybe ~5 CFM per HP on a air compressor.So if using air you would need about a ~7.5 hp air compressor. So 746 watts(1hp) x 7.5 hp =~5595watts .just under 6 kw/hour. Where I live I pay .10cents per kilowatt/hr. So .60 cents x 24 hours= 14.40 a day x30 days= $432.00 a month on your electric bill running 24/7.

You can have a much better COP with a traditional vapor/compression cycle.

Maybe you should look at how much you can afford and willing to pay,or how many watts/amps are available ,an let that determine your cooling capacity.

BTW unless both the hot and cold discharge to a much lower pressure they won't work.....also if there is a large imbalance they won't work.

~-150 to ~120c all inside that box..............While CPU work better and faster @ low temperatures,the motherboard capacitors don't like the cold.Also you WILL have oil lubercation issues @ the temps you hope to achieve.

Guys here struggle to get a single CPU to -80 or -90c under load with 2 stage cascades.

As to the old plate evaps in fridges ,that was back in the day before self
defrosting fridges. The iced up and every so often every thing in the freezer had to be removed and the freezer defrosted.

Reading your posts I'm not sure you understand that there is a difference between Temperature (measured in Celsius,Fahrenheit,Kelvin) and Heat (measured in BTU's, watts,kj/kg,calories)

Your load inside your case is going to be all the power supplied to the motherboards/w/cpu's/gpu's /fans/pumps/ ect plus all the wattage supplied to the compressors +heat load of the case itself since the inside will be colder than the outside. Oh and unless you have a very well insulated interior,the outside will sweat or grow frost if cold enough.

Will the inside be filled with air or another gas? does that case have a o ring gasket? While you google & Wiki all these different cycles & devices your over looking some of the most basic principles of refrigeration & Thermodynamics.

All refrigeration does is take heat from one place and move it to another (period). (Energy can not be created nor destroyed)

So every watt (1 watt=3.412 Btu's) of power that goes into the case by way of power cord must be moved back out of the case and rejected + add the heat load of the case.

ultralo1

08-27-2009, 05:04 AM

I must really apologize for my twisting your arm into commenting here
No problem, I dont mind spoon feeding you the information.

I said the inside of the computer case is insulated

Whats the R value. Typical commercial cascades that reach -80C and below have an R value of 40+. This is needed to lower the heat infiltration and to reduce external condensation.

Consequently the internal temperature will remain more stable over a longer period of time.

This is technique is using thermal mass to stabilize the system.

EVERYTHING that I've stated in this post, I've stated here before

Please see my sig line. This baby is your idea, yet you have not provided us with a detailed summary of the system. You have provided enough links to choke a horse, and no I did not read them. It is not my job to read links so that I can understand just WTF you are talking about. It is Your job to present your idea up for peer review and then defend your position under scrutiny.

Physicists are still at a loss to explain why and how vortex tubes work
Are these from peer reviewed papers or just article on the net? I am betting "just on the net"

I meant exactly what I said about the intercooler

If you will read what you said in that paragragh you jumped from talking about condensors straight to evaps in freezers. I wll take the hit and say I did not understand it.

An even better explanation would be this

So you ARE building a totally enclosed 2 stage cascade, with all the compressors located inside the chilled case. Along with the addition of the Vtubes.

I am no phyisist but I am feeling something here about over unity , and free energy. (yes, that one truly is intened to be sarcastic)

MOre to follow, so stick around

Shingoshi

08-27-2009, 10:04 AM

Why do you want to keep the compressors inside the case?

Stop reading docs about vortex tubes... just read this:
http://www.refrigerationbasics.com/1024x768/rb1.htm
I'm reading it now.

My goal was to have a system that could be moved without having to keep track of "what am I missing here? So I want everything kept together for integrity sake. That's why I only wanted the intercooler/condenser mounted outside of the case. Maybe that's delusional. But it's my delusion just the same. I think I should be entitled to at least one grand delusion.

Wdrzal, from what I was reading after your detailed post here before (which I think I appreciatively acknowledged), I thought I found what was evidence of means to deal/cope with the heat output of the vortex tubes. The two most promising solutions given from research was turboexpanders and pulse-tubes. Where the vortex tube's heat and oscillations were used to drive either of the two aforementioned resolutions.

Basically, the turboexpander becomes another expansion device. And the vortex tube replaces the typical driving mechanisms for pulse-tubes. So both wind up recovering what would have otherwise been lost as wasted heat. Yes, it comes down to a matter of practicality. The expense of both of them tends to rule them out. So I've been trying to determine another means of accomplishing what those two devices perform.

I'm still looking at how much of a performance gain can be seen from driving the vortex tubes with very cold (hopefully sub-zero C) inlet gas. I meant put the vortex tube between the TXV and the evaporator. All of the temperature measurements for the vortex tubes have been based on room temperature (using the Fahrenheit scale). And yes, I certainly know the difference between Celsius and Fahrenheit. I just don't think I should be required to give numbers in only one system, when most of you already know how to do your own conversions.

Shingoshi

wdrzal

08-27-2009, 01:21 PM

I Said:

Reading your posts I'm not sure you understand that there is a difference between Temperature (measured in Celsius,Fahrenheit,Kelvin) and Heat (measured in BTU's, watts,kj/kg,calories)

Shingoshi

08-27-2009, 02:07 PM

I Said:

Reading your posts I'm not sure you understand that there is a difference between Temperature (measured in Celsius,Fahrenheit,Kelvin) and Heat (measured in BTU's, watts,kj/kg,calories)
I'm sorry I didn't catch that. Yeah, you're probably right. I need to have a better understanding of the difference so that I won't confuse things.

Let me see if this is correct:
Temperature is what we use to measure how warm something is.
Heat is what the thing we're measuring contains, and what's required to change it's temperature. In other words, you have to remove a given amount of heat to change the temperature of a thing?

Correct me. I'll gladly accept it!
Shingoshi

wdrzal

08-27-2009, 03:38 PM

I'm sorry I didn't catch that. Yeah, you're probably right. I need to have a better understanding of the difference so that I won't confuse things.

Let me see if this is correct:
Temperature is what we use to measure how warm something is.
Heat is the ENERGY or (Thermal Energy) we're measuring that a objects mass contains, and what's required to change it's temperature. In other words, you have to remove a given amount of heat to change the temperature of a thing?

Correct me. I'll gladly accept it!
Shingoshi

Lets replace thing with Energy.;)

Shingoshi

08-27-2009, 03:56 PM

So you need to know the latent heat (the amount required to change it's phase), and from that, you'll know how much energy is required to change it's temperature? I think I'm wrong! Maybe getting closer, but still wrong nonetheless.

I really do need to get a book and read. Sorry guys!

Shingoshi

ultralo1

08-27-2009, 05:23 PM

(the amount required to change it's phase),

Changing phase uses the latent heat of vaporization and latent heat of fusion.
Its been a very long time since I have had to remember the definitons of these so here is a Wiki link to get you started. I dont want to tell you the wrong thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat

I really do need to get a book and read.

I will keep my sarcasm in check.

Shingoshi

08-27-2009, 07:24 PM

Changing phase uses the latent heat of vaporization and latent heat of fusion.
Its been a very long time since I have had to remember the definitons of these so here is a Wiki link to get you started. I dont want to tell you the wrong thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat

I will keep my sarcasm in check.
Sitting there having to resist the opportunity to bite back. Oh the sheer pain of restraint! :rofl:

Thanks! It really is appreciated. Especially after our past exchanges.

Shingoshi

teyber

08-27-2009, 08:57 PM

Shingoshi

08-28-2009, 02:30 AM

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/2637/schematicpulstuberefrid.th.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_tube_refrigerator)
If so, would you please explain it to me. Please! I saw something like this connected to a vortex tube. Here's the link to it. You'll need to have membership as I do. But it's free and worth the effort.
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/149/vortexpulsetuberefriger.th.jpg (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6442947.pdf)

Shingoshi

sdumper

08-28-2009, 04:37 AM

eligray

08-28-2009, 11:29 AM

why dont you take a deep breath plan something, buy your parts and then come back here once your ready to build it.

No one wants to follow links nor do your design and homework for you. This is a complex build your planning and its obvious your in way over your head.

I want to articulate my agreement with this statement, but he's already blown off identical posts about two dozen times :shakes::shrug:

quintus

08-28-2009, 03:59 PM

He is just a kid running around...

wdrzal

08-29-2009, 10:17 PM

Shingoshi

08-30-2009, 02:01 AM

I didn't look at the patent info for 2 reasons. first something doe NOT have to work to get a patent,just needs to be a unique idea. 2 if it does work it falls under patent laws and you can't copy the design unless the patent is expired.
One of the main benefits of patent studies, is to provide a guide post for the advancement of new work. If what you said here were true, there would be no legal right of one person to cite the work of another (and their patent) as the basis of their own new work. Anyone looking at the background of patents will quickly see that most patents are derivative works, and not in the least bit original, as in something that was never done before. In many cases, the new works represent modifications and subsequent advancements of the older preexisting patents.

And it doesn't make any sense to talk about being barred from doing something which isn't possible. The real point is to examine explore and develop new ideas based on the good ideas of others.

Shingoshi

Shingoshi

09-08-2009, 06:19 PM

I'm now awaiting the delivery of two "York p015-03288-004 2 ton Compressor Matsu:banana::banana::banana::banana:a ptac" purchased from Ebay. These should settle any concerns for me about the ability to hold any load thrown at them. Thanks to a post by [XC] gomeler in another thread, I now have the idea of using both of these units in tandem. I believe they will have all of the necessary ports required for any of the interconnected lubrication issues without modification/alteration. I will then be using the smaller Rechi compressors strictly for subcooling the refrigerant as it leaves the condenser. The combination should be very productive. The Rechis will allow me to subcool the York compressor stream without reducing the performance of the tandem group. Typically, you have to split a portion of the main stream to provide for subcooling. I won't have to do this. The four Rechis will have that task all to themselves.

Shingoshi

EDIT: I guess you can't write Matsu****a, without this forum automatically thinking you've cursed!

Shingoshi

09-15-2009, 05:21 PM

And they're twins!
The Towers of York have arrived, Behold!

[IMG=http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5177/compressortwins.th.jpg] (http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5177/compressortwins.jpg) [IMG=http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9008/compressorlabel.th.jpg] (http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9008/compressorlabel.jpg) [IMG=http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5134/compressortwinsvertical.th.jpg] (http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5134/compressortwinsvertical.jpg)
I finally found the documentation for these units.
[IMG=http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8163/matsushiacompressortabl.th.jpg] (http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8163/matsushiacompressortabl.jpg)

They are a pair of K-Series Matsushi+a rotary compressors. These units appear to have a lower capacity than what was advertised. I'm not sure if I should file a complaint with Ebay or not? This was only my second time doing business on Ebay, and I don't know how strict they are about advertising correctly about specifications. These compressors have only a 19.6cc/rev displacement. I'm glad I didn't pay anywhere near full price!

Shingoshi

teyber

09-15-2009, 06:33 PM

holy :banana::banana::banana::banana: those are huge

Shingoshi

09-15-2009, 07:03 PM

holy :banana::banana::banana::banana: those are huge
I am a bit disappointed though about how much smaller they are than what they were said to be. These aren't two ton units, and that's what I paid for. So if anyone has any input about what I should or could do about this, let me know. Because I think the price should have been lower, or I would have offered less had I know their true size.

They do fit inside the case with it laying flat. But they're less than the 15" height of the case. I was thinking I might have to stand the case on it's side (which would have given me 22" of height) to accommodate them. But the base is too wide (9.5" square) to do that without making some sort of platform to stand them on. I may still do that though. Because having the case mounted on it's side presents opportunities that I won't otherwise have.

Shingoshi

EDIT: Here are some more pics to show the relative size between the larger and smaller compressors.
[IMG=http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7775/compressortwinsplacemen.th.jpg] (http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7775/compressortwinsplacemen.jpg) [IMG=http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8569/rechicompressorcapacito.th.jpg] (http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8569/rechicompressorcapacito.jpg)
Funny thing is, I just realized I have the start capacitors for the Rechi compressors. I hadn't opened the rest of their packaging until now!

Shingoshi

09-15-2009, 07:46 PM

It may be more relevant here.

As always, click on my images to see the links they point to!

The system you are talking about is a two-stage system. You should know what you are doing if you atempt this. If the "condenser" (really a gas cooler) is to efficiant you wil have liquid out of it. But the good thing about this if you do it right is that you will have a lower spesific volume, and lower gastemperature. That means lower displacement on the sencond stage, and lower power consumption overall. It's a good idea to have a liquid seperator after the gass cooler (middle pressure cooler) to avoid a broken compressor. :) In industrial cooling this is actually a normal way to do things ;) (mainly because you will have lower gas temp into the condenser, pluss a lower power consumption)
I'm guessing you'd want to use something like this:
http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Major_Components/accumulators/hx_accumulator.jpg (http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Major_Components/accumulators/accumulators.asp)
So then the question now becomes,
1.) Which refrigerants are pretty much guaranteed not to condense at room temperature? R-744?
2.) Specifically, which refrigerants need very low temperatures to condense? I know that R-14 is a candidate.
3.) Should both compressors be a different size? The first one larger than the second?
4.) Could such a system function with only a single refrigerant? Or would you still need another seeding refrigerant (like R-600a) to work for the subcooler downstream from the second compressor?
5.) Could you have a combination of refrigerants all incapable of condensing at room temperature? (That seems to make sense)
6.) So which refrigerants require an even lower condensing temperature than R-744/CO2?

Shingoshi
EDIT: Sorry for repeating myself. I keep re-editing my text, and I wind up with redundant questions.

EDIT: I always learn so much from these guys!
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/images/VA_RE/header_07.png (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=93389#post93389)

EDIT: I think this applies to this subject as well:
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/images/PCT-IMAGES/22062006/SE2004001925_22062006_gz_en.x4-b.jpg (http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2006065185&IA=SE2004001925&DISPLAY=STATUS)

A very interesting link from YouTube on the phases of R-744.
Triple-Point Analysis of Carbon-Dioxide (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gVzL2pc0Gg)

EvoCarlos

09-16-2009, 08:44 AM

i think you shold post this project on RE i think they will all say wtf for :)

and i linked you the co2 clip in another thread

oh and is it build yet i just wonderd as its getting cold over here in the uk and thought you may have swiched it on :rofl::rofl:

Shingoshi

09-16-2009, 10:13 AM

This was an answer to the questions listed below. But my response will show the direction I'm taking in the planning of this project. So it really needs to be here as well.

1,2)This is kind of andvanced stuff but anyway. You don't look for a refridgerant that does not condense in room temperature. You can do this with every rifridgerant. You just "get rid of" the gas superheating (cooling the gas, so it gets closer to condensing temperature at the spesific pressure).

3) Usually the first compressor (that sucks superheated gas from the evaporator) is close to 3 times larger than the sencond compressor. This is due to the lower spesific volume on the gass after the intercooler.

4) The difference between cascade and traditional two-stage system is that you just have one refridgerant in a two stage system. (The same refridgerant runs through the entire system). In a cascade you can have the same refridgerant, but they run in a independent loop that heat exchange (The 1st. stage is condensing against the 2. stage evaporator).

5) You chose refridgerant based on the pressure and temperature you want the system to have. Things like oil blend capability, and oil types is also a factor. The critical pressure/temp (the maximum pressure that a refridgerant can have in order to condens/evaporate) is a major factor.

6) Nitrogen has an extremely low critical point. (34bar/-147c) But this is not what you want to consentrate on.

Hope this helps! :)
1+2.) Let's concentrate on R-744 as my baseline for this discussion. I need to look at how much pressure I need to get the condensation point low enough to work with. I need to take the time to convert bar to psi to see what I'm working with here. My main concern is that I don't want too much pressure inside my gas coolers. Specifically because they weren't designed for this (They're actually very large 32"x12"x3" Turbocharger Intercoolers). So I don't want the pressure inside of them to be higher than say 200psi. I want to use my smaller compressors to bump the pressure up from there.

3.) My two compressor sizes are 19.6cc and 7.75cc respectively for the Matsushi+a (York) and Rechi. That's about a 2.5x difference between them.

4.) I have a total of six compressors. Two York and four Rechi. See my link I posted above to see them together. I want to use the two York (Panasonic/Matsu) compressors in tandem/parallel for my first stage. I simply want to use them to provide for the system's volume/load capacity. I then want to divide the four Rechi compressors into two separate tandem/parallel groups. The first tandem group will be used to bump the pressure of the refrigerant up coming from the gas coolers. The second tandem group will be used to subcool the refrigerant leaving the first group, passing the heat back to the outbound refrigerant.

So there will be two completely separate refrigerant loops in the system. The first loop will have the combination of both the York and Rechi compressors. This loop will likely have R-744 as the main refrigerant. The Yorks will be (first-stage) before the gas cooler, and the Rechis will be (second-stage) after the gas cooler. The second independent loop will have only the last two Rechi compressors to provide the subcooling. The subcooling loop will likely have R-600a as the refrigerant. The two loops (main flow and subcooling) will run in counterflow. The inside subcooling Rechi loop is moving refrigerant in the opposite direction against the main incoming refrigerant loop. Instead of the subcooling loop having it's own condenser, it will use a heat-exchanger to cool the subcooling refrigerant with the refrigerant coming from the evaporator of the main loop. This will also be done with the two Rechi compressors in the second stage.

I'll leave 4+5 alone for now.

Thanks for your time!
Shingoshi

sdumper

09-16-2009, 10:33 AM

You know whats funny...your going to pull this thing off and were all going to be sitting here eating crow :)

Good luck and glad your compressors came in. Is 220v going to be a problem for you?

MeltedDuron

09-16-2009, 11:07 AM

Check out Nasa. I watched something on Discovery the other day about Hubble and they fitted a cryo cooling unit for one of the cameras. Nitrogen cooler. Admitly it is -270c up there defore any extra cooling on items

Shingoshi

09-16-2009, 02:38 PM

You know whats funny...your going to pull this thing off and were all going to be sitting here eating crow :)

Good luck and glad your compressors came in. Is 220v going to be a problem for you?
I found that out from the maintenance worker here. The electric heaters all use a separate 240V line to operate them. So I shouldn't have a problem with the current.

And I'll try not to gloat too much while everyone here is eating crow. Because the fact is, I'll have to eat some myself. I'll still be making mistakes along the way. So maybe we can just have a big BBQ and eat crow together!

Shingoshi

EDIT: One thing about the gas coolers mentioned above. I think I will be using four of them, all mounted vertically to the bottom of the case, so that their inlets/outlets are at the top. That will effectively prevent any chance of fluid coming back into the second-stage compressors. Here are the pics of these units again, so you can see what I'm talking about.
[IMG=http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/6015/fmic3210031.th.jpg] (http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/6015/fmic3210031.jpg) [IMG=http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3728/fmic3210036.th.jpg] (http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3728/fmic3210036.jpg) [IMG=http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/519/fmic3210033.th.jpg] (http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/519/fmic3210033.jpg) [IMG=http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9519/fmic32100345.th.jpg] (http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9519/fmic32100345.jpg) [IMG=http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/226/fmic3210032.th.jpg] (http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/226/fmic3210032.jpg)
As should be obvious to everyone, I'll have to put endcaps on each of these with concentrically-located nipples mounted for my gas lines. That shouldn't be difficult to do. So I'll either be brazing or heliarc welding them, depending on which metal the endcaps are.

wdrzal

09-16-2009, 05:53 PM

That doesn't look like a capacitor but a thermal overload for those rechie's. Capacitors will have a uf or mfd rating.

runmc

09-16-2009, 06:07 PM

That doesn't look like a capacitor but a thermal overload for those rechie's. Capacitors will have a uf or mfd rating.

yepp :yepp:

Shingoshi

09-16-2009, 07:03 PM

That doesn't look like a capacitor but a thermal overload for those rechie's. Capacitors will have a uf or mfd rating.
I don't know anything! I just saw something and thought maybe I got the capacitors after all. I know someone else who brought these same compressors had complained about not being able to find the right ones. So when I saw these things, I thought maybe I got lucky. But then, I'm rarely ever lucky!

When the time comes, I'll be asking you guys how or where to install them. They seem like they go on the top of the unit. So the capacitors must mount remotely from the compressors themselves, huh?

Hi guys! I was wondering where you all have been.
Shingoshi

sdumper

09-16-2009, 08:06 PM

I don't know anything! I just saw something and thought maybe I got the capacitors after all. I know someone else who brought these same compressors had complained about not being able to find the right ones. So when I saw these things, I thought maybe I got lucky. But then, I'm rarely ever lucky!

When the time comes, I'll be asking you guys how or where to install them. They seem like they go on the top of the unit. So the capacitors must mount remotely from the compressors themselves, huh?

Hi guys! I was wondering where you all have been.
Shingoshi

Run caps are dirt cheap so dont sweat it but yes the one pictured is an overload protector which is more expensive than a start or run cap ;)

Pictures do wonders for getting us to post :) Honestly, I am fairly busy and dont always have the time to read all of the detail but when I see a picture with a short question then that i can handle :)

Shingoshi

09-16-2009, 11:09 PM

I really want to say Thank You, sdupmer. I actually felt a sense of, they may begin to take me seriously after all. And that felt good. So Thank You!

About the camera issue. When I first started this project, I didn't own a digital camera. I brought one just for this project. The first one I brought about two months ago, died. It simply won't power up no matter what I do. The lens locked in the open position, and gave up the ghost. So I brought another digital camera. Ironically, I got it earlier the same day I got my compressors. And given my experience with the last one, I wasn't sure what to expect with this one. But as can clearly be seen, for the time being anyway, it's working. So I hope I will be able to maintain my earlier promise to have pictures of every stage of this project. And I'll try not to be too excessive, which can be a problem for me (As some may have noticed!).

I guess you can all thank naja002 for kicking me in the pants to get a camera. So I guess I should thank him too!

So I'll need to get two caps for the York compressors, and four for the Rechis. Good to know they're not expensive. So another question I have is whether anyone has ever seen any other major device combined with an oil-trap?
http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Major_Components/accumulators/hx_accumulator.jpg (http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Major_Components/accumulators/accumulators.asp)
I read in one of the other threads (in this forum) that some one thought the image of the combination accumulator/sub-cooler (I've posted again) would have worked for oil trapping as well. It was just a suggestion. So I'm wondering if such a thing really exists? I'm the kind of guy who likes things that can perform more than one function.

I'm going to need something to provide for the equalization of oil pressure between my compressors for the tandem arrangement to work properly. The Yorks already have quite substantial accumulators mounted on them. The Rechi's accumulators are much smaller. What do these images tell any of you about how I'd have to equalize the oil pressure between the York compressors? I've really not wanted to drill any holes in the compressors, (as has been suggested many times) without knowing what's on the other side. At least with the diagram now I can tell what's where.
[IMG=http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/695/compressordiagram.th.jpg] (http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/695/compressordiagram.jpg) [IMG=http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4508/compressoraccumilatorfu.th.jpg] (http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4508/compressoraccumilatorfu.jpg) [IMG=http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9958/compressoraccumilatorbo.th.jpg] (http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9958/compressoraccumilatorbo.jpg) [IMG=http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1166/compressorrechiaccumula.th.jpg] (http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1166/compressorrechiaccumula.jpg)
One thing to keep in mind about all of this. I will need oil traps after each of the three tandem compressor groups. The separate subcooling loop won't be a problem, since it is isolated from the main refrigeration loop. But the main loop presents a bigger problem to deal with. That's because the larger York compressors will be in the same loop as the smaller Rechi compressors. Now it seems intuitive that I should be able to isolate the Yorks from the Rechis by simply having each tandem group return oil from their own trap, back to the same group. If that's correct, please let me know. But, I still need to equalize the pressure in each of the separate tandem groups.

Good thing I got the camera, huh?

Thanks guys!
Shingoshi

ultralo1

09-17-2009, 07:15 AM

So another question I have is whether anyone has ever seen any other major device combined with an oil-trap?

Not sure if you are talking about an oil trap or an oil seperator. Oil traps are usually used in long suction piping runs that have a hieght difference between the condesing unit and evap. Oil seps are mounted near/in the condensing units and help prevent oil from leaving the condesing unit.

But yes I have seen these used with eithe. It is a suction accumulator with a subcooler. I think the last one I bought was a sporlan. Sorry I dont remember the mod numbers. The do not work as oil traps. It works the same as any other accumulator.

Shingoshi

09-17-2009, 09:44 AM

I didn't realize the difference between the two types of oil handlers (traps and separators) in a system. What I really want to do is remove all the oil from my refrigerant stream BEFORE it enters the condensers. Because the way I will have the condensers mounted on the bottom of my case with their inlets/outlets on top, only gaseous refrigerant would ever be able to leave the condenser and any oil entering it would be trapped. So I have to keep oil from ever getting in the condenser to begin with. With that in mind, I will likely have to use a very good oil separator after the York compressors. And if I really don't feel absolutely confident about using only one separator, then I will use two in series, one behind the other.

But I really want to thank you for clarifying my previous confusion here.

Shingoshi

ultralo1

09-17-2009, 09:55 AM

then I will use two in series, one behind the other.

Coalesing filters (temprite 901) work best in parallel

Shingoshi

09-17-2009, 09:56 AM

But this was such a detail response, that I felt it deserved the attention of the few who would not know this, but are still following this thread.

I imagine you have made some autocaskade/cascade systems. When you build two-stage systems you have to think a bit different. And R744 (CO2) is really different from the usual refridgerants. I'm sorry but i'm not used to working with psi (i live in europe). R744 has a critical point of 73,6bar (31.1 °C). In other words to make a traditional system with condensing, and subcooling you must have a pressure below 57bar(20°C).

This is how a typical transkritical 2-stage R744 the system is buildt. As you can see the pressure in the middle pressure reciever is quite lower than the gas cooler pressure.
http://i939.photobucket.com/albums/ad238/maatmesusah/CO22STC.jpg

http://i939.photobucket.com/albums/ad238/maatmesusah/R744totrinnmedmellomtrykksbeholder.jpg

This system solution does not requier external cooling. and will give a good cooling capasity with low mass-flow. And therefor a low compressore displacement. Sub cooling before the evaporator vent is not neseserry in so small builds. You recomand having a suctiongass-heat exchanger on the low pressure compressor. Leting the middle pressure liquid heat exchange with the suction gass from the evaporator. This will superheat the gass before the compressor and subcool the liquid before the evaporator. And then secure your low pressure compressor from "liquid-hammering" (destry the compressor).

EDIT: Usually you have a 2 times larger dispacement on the low pressure compressor i R744 systems.

The valve between the gas cooler and the middle pressure reciever is important if you plan on running transcritical. If you don't have it you'll have a low evaporator performance.

I do not recomend building a sub-critcal system with R744 if you dont heat exchange the condensation with another refridgeration loop (cascade)

A solution for subcritical R744 is something like this:
http://i939.photobucket.com/albums/ad238/maatmesusah/CO1SCC.jpg

This is a good way of doing things but requier a lot of automation + oil return systems.

Hope this helps.

This post just begged to be respected for the amount of information relayed.

EDIT: Now that I got my 2nd camera, I really need to get a good drawing program so I can sketch my concepts out for all to see. I realize it is a disadvantage for the rest of you not knowing exactly what I mean when I say something. And it doesn't help any of us for you who are knowledgeable to not be able to give precise answers to my questions. So I'm going to look again for an easy drafting program to learn and use. Suggestions for a good (and free) program to use would be very appreciated!

Shingoshi

Shingoshi

09-26-2009, 07:39 PM

All of this criticism about me not taking pictures has led me back into my old first love. First I got one digital camera which failed and forced me to get another one. Now that I've gotten the second camera, I wanted something that could use to record video. So I tried bidding online for a Canon L1, thinking that I would have work done on it as required. I lost that bid and moved onto another. So I tried bidding on a Canon XL1 (which was absurdly foolish) and lost that too!

Ultimately in frustration, I decided to build my own video system. Having years of experience with interchangeable lenses, I didn't want a video system which didn't provide that functionality. So I thought, "what could give me what I want on the cheap without losing an quality in the process. The answer came as a CCTV camera which I purchased. It's a Samsung SSC-131A Digital CCTV camera. My next focus was on my lenses. For that, I chose to use the Leica M39 Thread Mount system. My second line of attack is the old Pentax M42 Universal lenses of old.

I'm telling you all of this for two reasons. One, to let you know why I haven't posted anything in a while. And two, to maybe give some of you the chance to consider alternative approaches to common problems. My goal here was to have a video system to document the progress of my build. Still pictures simply won't cut it here. I need to provide the means for some to actually see how things are put together in a way that provides greater clarity of the subject matter. So I'm posting pictures of what I've accomplished so far in my distraction, and probably won't post anything else here about the camera again. I just hope some of you find this fascinating. It has certainly brought a big smile to my face.

This is basic camera as it was acquired, and the Leica M39::C-mount adapter:
[IMG=http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7971/samsungscc131adsc00054.th.jpg] (http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7971/samsungscc131adsc00054.jpg) [IMG=http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1066/leitzoutdsc00070.th.jpg] (http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1066/leitzoutdsc00070.jpg)
The camera with it's lens removed, and the new Leica M39 adapter waiting to be attached:
[IMG=http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2315/leitzoutdsc00071.th.jpg] (http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2315/leitzoutdsc00071.jpg)
The Leica M39 adapter now attached:
[IMG=http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3656/leitzoutdsc00074.th.jpg] (http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3656/leitzoutdsc00074.jpg)
The back of the camera (Note the BNC::RJ45 connector):
[IMG=http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5761/samsungscc131adsc00056.th.jpg] (http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5761/samsungscc131adsc00056.jpg) [IMG=http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/893/scc131acamerabackdsc001.th.jpg] (http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/893/scc131acamerabackdsc001.jpg) [IMG=http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1395/scc131acamerabackdsc001r.th.jpg] (http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1395/scc131acamerabackdsc001r.jpg)
I also have a M42::C-mount adapter. It's shown here with the camera and the Lentar 28mm f/2.8 lens I just got today from Ebay for $26:
[IMG=http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3914/tmountm39adapterlentard.th.jpg] (http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3914/tmountm39adapterlentard.jpg) [IMG=http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5871/tmountm39adapterlentarde.th.jpg] (http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5871/tmountm39adapterlentarde.jpg) [IMG=http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4807/tmountm39adapterlentardc.th.jpg] (http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4807/tmountm39adapterlentardc.jpg)
The lens I got today almost looks new, with the exception of some wear on the lens mount (like yours) which is never seen while in use. I'm going to post pictures of it for you to see. It's absolutely pretty!
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3914/tmountm39adapterlentard.jpg http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4131/lentarmounteddsc00122.jpg http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3447/lentarmounteddsc00123.jpg

I found this link when checking to see what quality I should expect from this lens. There may have been other links for others. But this page really convinced me this lens would be a good bet for my system. So as I have already done on Hin's Tech Corner (http://www.techtheman.com/2009/01/super-lentar-28mm-f28-m42.html?showComment=1254007228805#c70915449650184 31870), I really want to thank him for the affirmation to get this lens! Just look at his pictures to see why!

That's the end of my being off-topic!
At some point though, I will also install an observation camera inside the case as well. Something small with a very wide coverage angle.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao
[IMG=http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4359/lentar28mmf28dsc00124.th.jpg] (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4359/lentar28mmf28dsc00124.jpg)

wdrzal

09-26-2009, 08:28 PM

You do know that presure/enthalpy chart & diagram you posted is for supercritical/transcritical CO2 system...........don't you??????? IIRC the critical pressure is around 1070 psig for scCO2.

Shingoshi

09-26-2009, 09:00 PM

You do know that presure/enthalpy chart & diagram you posted is for supercritical/transcritical CO2 system...........don't you??????? IIRC the critical pressure is around 1070 psig for scCO2.
You should tell the person who originally posted it!
The original post (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=4018806#post4018806)

Shingoshi

wdrzal

09-26-2009, 09:30 PM

The post right before I made yours........Ruffus's Thread go look. ;) NICE JOB and NICE CLOCKS:up:

You mentioned you wanted 200 psi for a high pressure but post supercritical/transcritical systems where the high side can be 1400 to 2000 psi with a 500 psi low side. :shrug:

Shingoshi

09-26-2009, 09:42 PM

The post right before I made yours........Ruffus's Thread go look. ;) NICE JOB and NICE CLOCKS:up:

You mentioned you wanted 200 psi for a high pressure but post By the way supercritical/transcritical systems where the high side can be 1400 to 2000 psi with a 500 psi low side. :shrug:
It would really help if you stated precisely (with a link to) which post you are referring to at the time you make a statement. That way there wouldn't be this kind of confusion. Since this has pretty much become my thread, I automatically thought you were being critical of me. I simply copied someone else's post here. And in doing so, there's a link to it for everyone to follow back to the original post. If you mention someone else's post/thread, please post the link to it as well.

Thank you,
Shingoshi

wdrzal

09-26-2009, 10:08 PM

Shingoshi it was already pointed out people don't want to chase links wasting there time. I would like to see you build a unit that works....... really :)

Maybe 2 or 3 compressors and shoot for - 80 or -90 with a load. :cool:

With all those compressors I don't think you realize how technically difficult you proposed build is,especially for a first build. How are you going to reject all that "heat of compression" from those !

FUGGER

09-26-2009, 11:36 PM

Shingoshi, did I meet you in Oregon? Harmonic Phase Separation? When I saw it, I recognized it as just a vortex tube (seeking mass funds) and never heard from them again.

I have one of these. Going on my next cascade.
http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Major_Components/accumulators/hx_accumulator.jpg

I own a working helium unit.

clear cmos

09-27-2009, 04:53 AM

SoddemFX

09-27-2009, 08:27 AM

that coiled tube must the evap

It is a suction accumulator with a built in liquid line subcooler, the liquid line is fed through the coil.

The J-pipe is used to prevent liquid refrigerant from returning to the compressor. Not visible in the picture is the small (sub-millimeter) hole at the bottom of the J-pipe which allows oil to return to the compressor instead of building up in the accumulator.

Tom

[XC] gomeler

09-27-2009, 10:55 AM

It is a suction accumulator with a built in liquid line subcooler, the liquid line is fed through the coil.

The J-pipe is used to prevent liquid refrigerant from returning to the compressor. Not visible in the picture is the small (sub-millimeter) hole at the bottom of the J-pipe which allows oil to return to the compressor instead of building up in the accumulator.

Tom

Never seen one of those before but that is what I thought it was also. Very interesting accumulator, are those available on the market?

Shingoshi

09-27-2009, 12:01 PM

gomeler;4035879']Never seen one of those before but that is what I thought it was also. Very interesting accumulator, are those available on the market?
If some of you didn't have PROBLEMS following the links I've provided (sometimes with images) you would have found the website for which each of the products can be found. And since I'm pretty certain that I provided the link for this accumulator's webpage, I'm not giving it again!

Best of luck!
Shingoshi

[XC] gomeler

09-27-2009, 01:49 PM

If some of you didn't have PROBLEMS following the links I've provided (sometimes with images) you would have found the website for which each of the products can be found. And since I'm pretty certain that I provided the link for this accumulator's webpage, I'm not giving it again!

Best of luck!
Shingoshi

1) You link way too often to random stuff.

2) NEVER link with images unless it is a link to a higher-quality image.

3) There is no need to get upset.

edit: Link to the accumulator shown above.

http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Major_Components/accumulators/accumulators.asp

How hard was that? Even a polite "please view post #xxx" would have been helpful. Don't treat everyone as an opponent of your work.. I'm one of the few that is actually genuinely interested in it.

Shingoshi

09-27-2009, 02:14 PM

gomeler;4036120']1) You link way too often to random stuff.

2) NEVER link with images unless it is a link to a higher-quality image.

3) There is no need to get upset.

edit: Link to the accumulator shown above.

http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Major_Components/accumulators/accumulators.asp

How hard was that? Even a polite "please view post #xxx" would have been helpful. Don't treat everyone as an opponent of your work.. I'm one of the few that is actually genuinely interested in it.
I was bidding on an essential piece of equipment on Ebay, only to have the "reserve not met" as the result. I was the only one who bid on it. So if it was so valuable, someone else should have thought so too. Instead, it sat for days with no activity. And this was something that I really needed. So I was still pissed at the time I wrote that.

On the other hand, I don't know why some find it too difficult to simply run their cursors over images or links to see where they might lead. I have to do that all day when I'm searching for product information. And I'm not complaining to anyone about it. Most of the time when you look at a page of grouped products, the thumbnail image of each item is usually the link to the specifications of that product. It's just something I've come to expect. So I didn't think it should be an issue for anyone who really wanted to know something.

EDIT: And I'm genuinely sorry. Because I've come to realize that you have indeed been in my corner, so to speak. You're the last person I really want to piss off. Please forgive the insult. Man, I really wanted that Leica component!

EDIT: I don't feel so bad now!! I got another Leica component to replace the one I wanted. And it has more of what I needed! Small miracles can come in small packages.

Shingoshi

SoddemFX

09-27-2009, 02:52 PM

gomeler;4035879']Never seen one of those before but that is what I thought it was also. Very interesting accumulator, are those available on the market?

Yes, they are cheap too. The reason thay are cheap is because they are easy to make and subsequently not terribly effective as a suction line heat exchanger.

It could be argued that any suction line accumulator is in itself a stop-gap soloution for a problem which shouldn't exist.

Tom

Shingoshi

09-27-2009, 03:31 PM

Yes, they are cheap too. The reason thay are cheap is because they are easy to make and subsequently not terribly effective as a suction line heat exchanger.

It could be argued that any suction line accumulator is in itself a stop-gap soloution for a problem which shouldn't exist.

Tom
Would you please explain why these are ineffective, and why it's a solution for a problem that shouldn't exist?

Shingoshi

[XC] gomeler

09-27-2009, 04:19 PM

Yes, they are cheap too. The reason thay are cheap is because they are easy to make and subsequently not terribly effective as a suction line heat exchanger.

It could be argued that any suction line accumulator is in itself a stop-gap soloution for a problem which shouldn't exist.

Tom

Well I was looking at it as purely a SLHX for a project I'm stuffing together. Original plan is a 10 plate HX and I don't think that'll change at $30/pop :)

FUGGER

09-27-2009, 08:55 PM

Asking again.

Shingoshi, did I meet you in Salem Oregon? Harmonic Phase Separation? When I saw it, I recognized it as just a vortex tube (seeking mass funds) and never heard from them again.

Shingoshi

09-30-2009, 03:19 AM

And it might be important.

As many of you have already gathered, I do a lot of online research. I don't buy anything without first doing exhaustive research to have some idea of what my options are. And in the process of doing this, I've come across something really interesting.

As it turns out, processors aren't the only chips that benefit from cooling.

Low Light and Long Exposure Times (Cooled CCD)
INFINITY3 cameras are cooled to 25ºC below ambient to reduce dark
current noise to a negligible level. This results in a 50% decrease in
dark current noise for every 6 to 8ºC in temperature below ambient.
Yes guys, I'm talking about cameras here. I was looking for a sensor head to attach to the optics I've been purchasing lately. And while doing so, I came across this company called Lumenera (http://www.lumenera.com/products/custom-oem-cameras/index.php#microscopy). They specialize in medical and industrial cameras. And most of them use USB as the interface and C-mounts for their lenses.
http://www.lumenera.com/images/products/microscopy/products/oemmicroscopy-prodpage.jpg

Finally, there may be a real application for the private development of extreme sub-cooling as envisioned by this project/thread. If I/we can prove that such systems are capable of practical 24/7 use, I/we will have an important point for others to observe. And the nice thing about it, cameras don't produce a lot of heat compared to processors. Most of you already have built systems that would produce tremendous results for low-temperature applications. What most of you do for fun, doesn't have to strictly be a hobby. Think about that...

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao