Chiller/ac unit

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by sky
:

@jamal
i hope you don't mind me shortening your nick ;).
i've been looking into tygon r3603 last week and they sell it only in 15 meter rolls for about 86 euros. that's way more than i need - and on browsing the pages of ismatec sa (tygon factory guys) i found something that bothers me. in the specs they say r3603 incorporates softeners (don't know if that's the correct term) and is basically yet another pvc-mixture. and it is said that r3603 isn't recommended for use with solvents - solvents here referring to stuff as in paint, etc.
that's why i started to worry about you running paint thinner or similar stuff through it.

it should be ok for alcohols or similar stuff, but i spent some more time at their site and browsed for other materials and found tygon mh 2075. that doesn't incorporate softeners and is resistant to solvents of any type. the temp-range is given as -70°C to +52°C (not exactly my range...). so now i'm trying to find a reseller that lists this. so far i only found about 4 shops in all of germany (!) that offer r3603 - and those are mostly medical equipment suppliers, just as you said.

anyway. my windshield solvent test wasn't as successful as i hoped. temps went to about -10°C since that stuff started slushing. i had the chiller run for some time and had to do other stuff, when i returned i had a fat piece of ice in my rez - doh. so that mixture was crap and it stinks pretty bad. i didn't have enough of it (and if i had i would have been woozy all day) and had to add water - too much it would seem ;)
so next up is the test with real car-coolant - that should give me an idea of what temps can be reached.




btw happy new year from 2004 already :D Hello Sky, Jamal is my name;) My kind g/f posted some links for the r3603 as you have seen. Yea I'm familar with the mh2075 and wouldn't mind trying it but I think it would be overkill for our application and a bit expensive.the mh 2075 is for much stronger chemicals like methyl- ethyl-ketones , xylenes and such.I work with these solvents every day and know their properties first hand. The r3603 has excellent resistance to milder chemicals such as methanol as you have stated. I have had my r3603 in my coolant for over a month and see no signs of degrading .

Yea , I wouldn't add any water to the coolant just a mixture of engine coolant and methanol. Equal parts or a bit heavy on the methanol side works best for me, and yea it produces a vapor that is unpleasant and not to healthy :slobber: Make your cover, but you really should insulate it .

[Gary Lloyd]

just checked I'm right at 10-c assuming the air going in is ambient.

Being a professionally engineered system, its not too surprising that the condenser sizing/airflow combination is just right. When you take the next step, adjusting the refrigerant charge, this will drop the delta-T a little, lessening the airflow needs. And should you go beyond this and replace the cap tube for lower temps, this will drop the delta-T substantially, further reducing the airflow needs.

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Being a professionally engineered system, its not too surprising that the condenser sizing/airflow combination is just right. When you take the next step, adjusting the refrigerant charge, this will drop the delta-T a little, lessening the airflow needs. And should you go beyond this and replace the cap tube for lower temps, this will drop the delta-T substantially, further reducing the airflow needs. Understood, but seeing how I had to relocate everthing ,omit the shroud ,reconstruct the shroud, alter the fan speed switching, I thought it might be prudent to check it out,:D

[Gary Lloyd]

I agree wholeheartedly. Professionally engineered or not, when I am checking out a system, I monitor a minimum of 8 different temperatures, and sometimes as many as 12. None of these temperatures tell me what I need to know. It is always the temperature differences, condenser delta-T being just one example, that tell the story.

It is indeed prudent to check it out.

[jamaljaco]

Right, I do something similar everyday at work as a painter,For ideal application I have to monitor ambient,surface,coating,
temps.Humidity and dewpoint. Its the relationship to the ambient that tells me whats going on the individual temps. Alone they mean nothing. understanding humidity and dewpoint has helped me alot in considering insulation factors and such. Anyone who has carefully monitored their temps on their computer should have a fair grasp of this but after a lot of reading i'm not so sure some do, hehe..

[Gary Lloyd]

Indeed, everyone should be aware of the dewpoint in their area. The insulation and/or heaters (ugh) must keep all surfaces above dewpoint to avoid condensation problems.

But beyond this, the better the insulation, the more system capacity is devoted to cooling the evaporator rather than cooling the ambient. Even if I lived in the driest desert on Earth, I would overinsulate everything in sight.

Insulation is our friend. :D

[Redwolf]

Not in the attic I just crawled out of it isn't :)

[Gary Lloyd]

LOL... I know just what you mean... fiberglass hell.

[Gary Lloyd]

How are the window A/C chillers coming, guys? I don't want to hear that you're happy with the temperatures you're getting. You have a 1/2 HP compressor. We can leave vapo's in the dust, and kick the crap out of a few prommies, too. :D

[jamaljaco]

Shhheeeeeesh! Gary don't you sleep?
:D

[jamaljaco]

Yea Gary < just spent the last few hours clocking, can never get what I want , my temps are just fine...

I wish I could just walk right in to home depot and grab some line taps, manifolds and few guages and a 20 lb jug of hooch. But it just dont work that way . Ive browsed the net looking at the 608 test but man those folks want money just to get a gander at the study books.,LOL , I could do the r134 thing but I want the goods

[Gary Lloyd]

Shhheeeeeesh! Gary don't you sleep?


I pass out once in a while. Does that count?

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
I pass out once in a while. Does that count? Not unless you make it to rapid eye movement for at least 20 mins.

[Gary Lloyd]

The 608 test is open book, online. The degree of difficulty is right up there with the drivers license test. Keep in mind that it is not a refrigeration test. You are getting a material handling certificate. You just need to learn the EPA rules and regulations.

Maybe we can get Runmc in here to give us a few pointers. He passed it a while back. And there may be others in the group as well.

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
How are the window A/C chillers coming, guys? I don't want to hear that you're happy with the temperatures you're getting. You have a 1/2 HP compressor. We can leave vapo's in the dust, and kick the crap out of a few prommies, too. :D Just as soon as I can aquire some gear we can start a new thread and call it step 2,

[jamaljaco]

Uh , Gary, LOL , Ive never had a DL ever.

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
WOW... Very nice work. :D

I like your way of making a compartment for the returning coolant. How did you get it to stay in position? [QUOTE]

Good morning Gary. Thats pretty much just where it wanted to be . It did seperate from the side wall towards the bottom of the tank positioning the Danner pump (which went in first) took care of the that. Updated pics, I was draining my res to try a different coolant mixture. Thought I would show how the Danner pump ended up in the cooler. This was the only way I could get it in there and still have room for the hoses.
I had to add an elbow to clear the evap. The pump rest about 3 inches below the coolant surface.

[jamaljaco]

This pic shows a little better (than the pics on page 7) the two seperate compartments .

[jamaljaco]

OOPs forgot the pic :D

[Gleep]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
The 608 test is open book, online. The degree of difficulty is right up there with the drivers license test. Keep in mind that it is not a refrigeration test. You are getting a material handling certificate. You just need to learn the EPA rules and regulations.

Maybe we can get Runmc in here to give us a few pointers. He passed it a while back. And there may be others in the group as well.

After seeing this post I went searching for online testing and found www.epatest.com (http://www.epatest.com) . They are EPA certified (I confirmed this, they are on the EPA's list of Technician Certification Programs (http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/technicians/608certs.html) ) to test for 608 Type 1, 2, 3, and universal but only the type 1 testing is available online the other are closed book with a proctor. They have a nice pdf (http://www.epatest.com/608IMAN.pdf) that covers the core and type 1 stuff which you can keep open during the test. The test is $24.95 and you are allowed 3 hours :rolleyes: to complete the test although it should take a lot less time to complete. Passing each section requires correctly anwsering 21 of the 25 questions (84%), there are 2 sections for the type 1 cert (the core and type 1 sections).

My only pointer is read the majority of the pdf document before you start the test.

The one question I have is what refrigerants does the type 1 cert allow you to purchase? I'm sure 404a is allowed but what about 410a?

[sky]

@geekgoddess & jamal

almost forgot to thank you for the links ;) - i've browsed through those sites and found some interesting bits. as for the tubing.. atm i'm throwing around various tygon type tubes, but now i got a good starting point for my inquiries.

anyway. i haven't been working on my chiller since i've been waiting for parts. i spent some time preparing the vmods for my gfx-card and did some oc-tests. 2406 on air, 2480 boot into windows but not much more - damn my psu needs to be replaced 300w :D

[GeekGoddess]

SKY,

Always glad to help a fellow Geek! :D

[Slickthellama]

how much would a window AC unit cost? I'm thinking about chilling my TEC and maybe doing some direct dye. How much would a decent AC unit cost? Gary do you have any I could buy? since your local.

[Gary Lloyd]

No I don't Slick, but they are relatively cheap. Places like Walmart have 5200 BTU window A/C's for less than $100, brand new.

Don't let the low price fool you. These little window A/C's have some real cooling power.

[Gary Lloyd]

just checked I'm right at 10-c assuming the air going in is ambient.

Many A/C's have multi-speed (actually multi-HP) fan motors. Once you have trimmed the refrigerant charge, it may be possible to go to the lowest fan speed, thereby reducing the noise.

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Many A/C's have multi-speed (actually multi-HP) fan motors. Once you have trimmed the refrigerant charge, it may be possible to go to the lowest fan speed, thereby reducing the noise. Funny you should mention it. My fan is at the highest speed right now .when I rewired everything I omited the the fan speed control leaving the extra wires intact but caped off . I think I'm getting sick of the sound as it seems to get louder every day.LOL. I've been reading the manual for the 608 test type 1 , Very dry reading :slobber: It puts me to sleep about every other paragraph. Still I trudge onward ,Igotta .:D

[Gary Lloyd]

I know exactly what you mean. If I ever start writing like that, somebody please shoot me... lol

[Gary Lloyd]

BTW, airflow requirements diminish as the coolant temperature drops. You need full airflow while it is pulling down to temperature, but once it is down there, you could probably switch to low speed and still maintain delta-T @ 10C or less.

On the other hand, you may find there is little difference between high and low speed, since the evaporator fan has been removed. The speed of a multi-HP motor is heavily dependent upon load. With no load at all (fan blades removed), all settings have the same speed.

Eventually, you will probably want to replace it with a nice quiet muffin fan or two.

Right now you need about 225-250 CFM for pulldown, but with the proper cap tube, trimmed charge, and good insulation, this could be cut nearly in half.

Another possible strategy would be to use two fans, and turn one off when the coolant is down to temperature. We could automate this using the temperature control that came with the A/C.

As the coolant temperature comes down, the liquid line temperature will also drop. We could strap the temperature sensor to the liquid line, insulate it, and have it turn one of the fans off and on as needed.

[Slickthellama]

so could i get a 5200 BTU AC and get a baker evap block 4 my video card, then get an AC shop to change the evap to the baker block for me? There are plenty of refridgeration places near here.

[Gary Lloyd]

Yep. In addition to the block, you will need a cap tube that is matched to the load using R22, so we need to know the load. You will also need the flexible suction line.

Thinking Bowman and Baker need to add such things to the kit. It would be very handy to be able to purchase an assembled block, captube, and suction hose. The assembly could simply be hooked up to a condensing unit, evacuated, and charged.

[chilly1]

My thoughts exactly.... as I assembled one this afternoon. I thought that these should be offered as they are the most difficault part to assemble correctly.

[Gary Lloyd]

Bowman has announced that this is in the works. :D

You can't imagine how tempted I am to come out of retirement. If I could afford it, I would now be building an auto-cascade prommie mod... LOL

[mrnuke]

DO IT GARY!

[Gary Lloyd]

Got a prommie and a blank check?

[ehorn]

Great post !!

Jamal , can you post back some temps when you get that GPU in the loop.

[Gary Lloyd]

Whenever you guys are ready, I have been doing some research and have found a couple kickass refrigerants that can put your system up into the R502 range, making them competitive with R404A and R507 systems:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26839

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by ehorn
Great post !!

Jamal , can you post back some temps when you get that GPU in the loop. I sure will. Hey! welcome to the sickness!:D I was kinda wanting to do a vmod on my 5900 before i chilled it but i've been a little chicken.:eek: was thinking if i could find a block I might do it in the morning > You might just have been the motivation I need to get offf my @ss an do it

[Gary Lloyd]

so could i get a 5200 BTU AC and get a baker evap block 4 my video card, then get an AC shop to change the evap to the baker block for me? There are plenty of refridgeration places near here.


Let me know when you are ready. Maybe you can tempt me. :D

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Whenever you guys are ready, I have been doing some research and have found a couple kickass refrigerants that can put your system up into the R502 range, making them competitive with R404A and R507 systems:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26839 Wow! very cool , just read yur post , gotta take that 608 test I read the manual got to read it again with a highlighter pen it was so poorly layed out I couldn't retain enough of it.I would still want to tune my system up first and learn in steps. awsome goal to shoot for though.So yea, price and availability of these fine refrigerents???hmmmm?

[Gleep]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
So yea, price and availability of these fine refrigerents???hmmmm? From what I've seen R404A, R507, R402A, and R408A all seem to be about the same in cost, not sure about availablity but you can order them online from www.r22.org (http://www.r22.org). Of course they added R507, and R410A after I ordered a bottle of R404A. :(

[mrnuke]

how much colder is r502 than r404 or r507?

[Gleep]

R402A at 1 atm boils at –56.5°F (–49.2°C).
R404A at 1 atm boils at –51.6°F (–46.5°C).
R408A at 1 atm boils at –46.3°F (–43.5°C).
R507 at 1 atm boils at –52.1°F (–46.7°C).

Of course boiling point isn't everything so here (http://www.dupont.com/suva/na/usa/literature/pdf/pp3.pdf) is some additional info on them.

[Gary Lloyd]

All of these refrigerants are designed as R502 substitutes, therefore all of the evaporating temperatures are within a few degrees of each other. That said, with all else being equal, the coldest would be R402A, then R507, then R404A, then R502, then R408A.

They are all close enough to make this a difficult decision. We need to consider the other factors, such as high side pressures and oil compatibility.

[ehorn]

I You might just have been the motivation I need to get offf my @ss an do it Great!! You've done a fine job with the system and the postings/pics... Most appreciated.

I have been looking for a cost-effective, cooling system and I think I have found it in this thread. Flexible, multi-component cooling.. with some very respectable temps...

at a fraction of prommy pricing.;)

It has been a great read thus far.. I was sorry to see Pimpsho snap the vapo line. Though i am hopeful he and mrnuke will have their systems up and running in no time.

[Gary Lloyd]

Here's another good source for refrigerant information:

http://www.refrigerants.com/frame.htm

Move your cursor to "Products", click on "Refrigerants".

[ehorn]

Interesting info Gary and Gleep. Gary, with regards to R408A/R402A what are your thoughts... R408A sounds like a winner. Would R402A be dependent on the quality of the compressor??

[Gary Lloyd]

We need to consider the strength of the compressor and the skill level of the person doing the job.

With a compressor designed for R12 or R134A, using any of these refrigerants puts high side stress on the compressor valves, yet many have successfully used R404A and R507 with these compressors. Then again, we may not be hearing from those who destroyed their compressors.

R408A would be the least stressful and R402A the most stressful. None of these refrigerants would be a problem for an R22 or R404A compressor.

Then there is the skill level. Removing a compressor, replacing some oil, and re-installing the compressor may sound easy. It is not. R408A does not require it. R402 does. And on some compressors it is possible to replace oil without removing the compressor.

[ehorn]

Then there is the skill... Well said... As I would not be in this post without the following direction...What I consider to be the best first project for a phase change noob. Transform a window A/C into a chiller, then add a piercing valve and start learning (by reading and doing) about refrigeration.

[chilly1]

Of course there are a few other things that go into selecting a refrigerant such as Glide this is the temperature diffrance between the bubble point and dew point, If the system is engineered to take advantage of this it can become more effecient. Another is the whole reason for section 608 of the clean air act. And this is the phase out first of the refrigerandt that destroy the ozone and then the evential phase out of global warming gases such as r22, All of these gasses are no longer available in Europe. R22 blends such as 402,408 ect aren't sold and are illegal to install in equipment. In the us this phase out of r22 blends is on a accellerated schedule. This means that we will see starting this year a floor tax and an accelerating federal tax. soall blends based on their proportion of global warming/ozone destroying gasses will recieve this tax. R12 is now over1200 for thirty ounds R 22 blends (hotshot,408,402) will be over 220 per 0 pound cylinder this year while r507 and 404 will only rise as a normal function of the markets..

[Gary Lloyd]

Ahhhhh... the heavy hand of government strikes again.

This is good to know, chilly. So eventually, the only alternative will be POE oil.

[sky]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
I sure will. Hey! welcome to the sickness!:D I was kinda wanting to do a vmod on my 5900 before i chilled it but i've been a little chicken.:eek: was thinking if i could find a block I might do it in the morning > You might just have been the motivation I need to get offf my @ss an do it

lol, you sound like me. i've been pushing my gfx-vmod around. first i was waiting for the right block, which got delivered dec 24, then i was missing the pumps and the tubes.. (still missing the tubes) and now it's some fittings and neoprene.. doh.
anyway. i've the complete vmod prepared, all soldered together, pots (cermets?) plus dipswitches to turn the individual mods of, fixed points to get the current voltages and the current resitance of the pots... all in place. just need to solder the 7 cableends to the acutal gfx-card ;). don't want to blow it while still air-cooling it ;)

now do it! you got the rig and all setup...
hey didn't i read somewhere you got "outclocked" on air by someone around here? :D do something about it hehe

[jamaljaco]

Good to see ya Sky, Yea she kicked my butt with my own ram, sheeeesh! BTW everone ,SHE KILLED THE BOARD! Yep. She returned the board and got another and is at this very moment trying to duplicate that 227 fsb.
I went to radio shack to try and pick upa 20 and 50k pot for my mod but they didn't stock them. Will try again next weekend guess that gives me time to order a block from the danger den for my vid . Hey we got a new member .hopping to get some new chiller action on this thread .

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by sky
lol, you sound like me. i've been pushing my gfx-vmod around.

now do it! you got the rig and all setup...
hey didn't i read somewhere you got "outclocked" on air by someone around here? :D do something about it hehe Ok. I did it . Not a matter to be entered into lightly.I paid $450 for this card when it first came out.
here it is .

[jamaljaco]

Now that I got it ready to generate some heat , I went to prepping it for the xtreme cold ,well not to xtreme just -25c

Here I pulled the heat spredder from the gpu the big @ss ramsinks are made from an old slot one heat sink that met my hacksaw.

[jamaljaco]

Then I fliped the card over and covered most all the back with that dielectric grease stuff, added some weather stripping and pushed the mounting bolts through.Not seen in the pic but after I mount the block I will add two more strips to cover the ends of the bolts.

[jamaljaco]

Now back to the front of the card where I added more grease and a layer of neoprene this layer sits flush with the gpu die to form a seal where the block will overhang.Note the dielectric grease in the center, up to but not on the die.

[jamaljaco]

Ah! the resting spot for my block.I added another layer of neoprene to sit flush with the bottom of my homemade block mount.
Notice the offset bolt patern,the block I will be using is from my Corsair Hydrocool kit, a cpu block that I had to mount slightly off center to match the available holes in my vid card.

[jamaljaco]

Ok Sky, do to lack of funds and just wanting to check it out and see how well it worked I'm using a microchannel design with the 3/8" OD 1/4 ID tubing nipples and tubing ready to go from the Hydrocool Kit. this tubing is good to -91f I looked it up.

[jamaljaco]

To keep from having to break into my already insulated circuit and to keep from having to purchase a block with half inch nipples I decided to add a second loop for my vid, here is a pic with the hoses plumbed into my res and waiting to be insulated.

[jamaljaco]

I managed ti fit a second pump into my res. this pump is only 1.5 inches wide and has a flow rate of around 250 liters an hour when the coolant is chilled down the flow rate is more like one liter an hour. the white tubing is ice maker tubing used for extensions as the hydrocool tubes were not long enough.

[jamaljaco]

With a little coolant and some insulation I'm about ready to chill down for a loop test.

[jamaljaco]

Ah frost! ok no leaks, bout ready to mount her. My mounting plate is visable here.

[jamaljaco]

The rest I'll just let the pics do the talking.

[jamaljaco]

:D

[Gary Lloyd]

Yikes... Frost... LOL

[jamaljaco]

;)

[jamaljaco]

I'll have more info,temps and such after some test ,right now I gotta cLoCk !
see ya:banana:

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Yikes... Frost... LOL LOL! :D

[sky]

i LOVE every bit of that! just that dielectric grease.. ahh.. that always looks so damn sick.. i mean.. i'll be doing it soon enough, but it still looks not right... i tried to keep all my stuff clean and gleaming and then.. well phase change has its downsides, i guess :D
ok now go clock! hehe
oh and something i'm not 100% sure on.. go search for the trick with the 59'series and their tempsensor. i don't know wether this was regarding the 59 or the 5950, but some of them shut down because they can't read negative figures and interpret them as high positives -> power down.

and what are the gpu and mem clocks default and those that you ran it with up to now - and naturally what's the new clocks!

good thing. so now i got to get working :D

[Jabo]

I was also looking for it in he midst of my bookmarks file but couldn't find it....
If you get it please post it here, thx m8:)

jamaljaco-> fantastic job d00d, respect!
Pristine application of condensation proofing/insulation - eye candy man!
Oh, and your volt mods, almost wet myself from sheer beauty and cleanliness of your solder job!
Congratulations and keep us posted.

What about the rest of you guys, any progress?

[Epsilon]

Very nice jamaljaco :D

My card will look quite the same in a few weeks :D

[sky]

Originally posted by Jabo
I was also looking for it in he midst of my bookmarks file but couldn't find it....
If you get it please post it here, thx m8:)

jamaljaco-> fantastic job d00d, respect!
Pristine application of condensation proofing/insulation - eye candy man!
Oh, and your volt mods, almost wet myself from sheer beauty and cleanliness of your solder job!
Congratulations and keep us posted.

What about the rest of you guys, any progress?

i think mickey posted the part about the 59'series temp prob. as for progress.. i'm stuck atm. trying to get some stuff delivered to me.. can't do much of anything till those parts arrive :( and the itch is getting worse.. must .. not... use... vmod...... yet ;)

eh.. and you'll wet yourself again, when you see pics of my vmod. maybe not from its sheer beauty, but from laughing... ehhe

[ehorn]

Bravo Jamal, Nice work indeed !!

Hope you get some good numbers from the additional mods. Anxious to see the stats.

PS Like the baffle mod on the condensor. Did that help the noise??

Also looks like the coolant is a little darker. Did you change the mix?

[jamaljaco]

Here is the link to MM's 5900 vmod thread :http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18766&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
First off thanks folks for all the praise.
@ Sky, I Don't have the below zero thermal throttling issue,I believe thats for the 5900 ultra,mine is non ultra and stops at zero.
Ok now my lame attempt at some stats.First I'll try to describe the effects on my coolant with an ambient temp of lets say 24c.My chiller pulls my coolant down to -25c unloaded in about 20 minutes. It will drop another 5c over the next hour unloaded. Loaded ( 2600mhz)at idle with just the cpu and nb my coolant stays at -25c and bios reports a cpu temp of around 10c. With my video loop at default clock at idle the coolant hangs around -23c and my gpu hasn't gone over 0 no matter what speed.With everything clocked and volted as high as I can get it and a few 3D Mark runs the coolant reaches a sweltering -20c. Now thats some cooling power!
I must say I was impressed at how just a trickle of flow in my vid loop was so efective. I'm not kidding when I say I have maybe 5 gph flow . My ram sinks will ice up in a few minutes if I forget to turn on my computer while the pumps are running.

My default gpu is 400mhz and the vram is 850mhz.With regular water cooling and stock voltage I was able to clock up to 475mhz gpu and 950mhz vram simi stable . With modded voltage and my beloved chiller I can now get up to 600mhz gpu and 1100 mhz vram simi stable I can't resist the urge to tweek the volts higher as I can't seem to get my card warm hehe.My ram sinks seem very efective. They stay cold to the touch. My only concern is some of the other componets on the card that are working overtime. I have fans on them and will be making more sinks for them .

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by ehorn
Bravo Jamal, Nice work indeed !!

Hope you get some good numbers from the additional mods. Anxious to see the stats.

PS Like the baffle mod on the condensor. Did that help the noise??

Also looks like the coolant is a little darker. Did you change the mix? ehorn, good to see you keeping an eye on things;)
Yes the plexiglass shroud helps a bit with the fan noise as it keeps the air from blowing all over the place.It also looks pretty good and was a simple solution just two parts glued at a 90 degree angle. The other end is open.
And yes again on the coolant I switched from 70/20/10 methanol water prestone to 70/30 methanol prestone .I didn't like the water it was causing my hoses to turn a milky white color and didn't have the anti corrosion inhibitors I get with the extra prestone.Also I seem to get a couple degrees cooler with the prestone.

[afireinside]

:( Your looks so clean and nice while mine looks like ass :p:

Kepp up the good work :D I'll post my setup this weekend when I get the infinity in and chilled :D I even ghetto clamp the GPU block on :O

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by afireinside
:( Your looks so clean and nice while mine looks like ass :p:

Kepp up the good work :D I'll post my setup this weekend when I get the infinity in and chilled :D I even ghetto clamp the GPU block on :O Great! cant wait to see it,we need some more chiller action.

[sky]

small update, just to state i'm still at it.. small steps at a time eheh.
i've vmodded my 9600tx... so far it works :) but it seems i can't get a measurement of the vdimm (doh, all other measurements work). oh and i did it MY way with hotglue! (yeah hotglue is the way, lol). i'll edit a pic or two into this once i get some. maybe tomorrow night.
i haven't floored it yet as it is still air-cooled (doh, i'm slow), but the dipswitches for enabling/disabling the mods do work as planned.. yea! if i get a reading on the vdimm tomorrow, i'll step it up a bit, to see if it can do 420/330 without artifacts. up to now 395/325 was the limit for 2k1, aquamark would start artifacting at 397/330..

/edit pic 1, vgpu
http://www.abi02.de/deepblue2k2/pixx/a_IMG_0928.jpg

[sky]

pic 2, the new ati "control panel" :D plus some of the spots to measure the voltages.
http://www.abi02.de/deepblue2k2/pixx/a_IMG_0935.jpg

in case anybody wonders... that black think's a 8x dip switch to enable / disable individual mods (vddq, vmem, -, vgpu from right to left, as it's seen from the back). the 3 cermets upright should be quite obvious, again right to left vpgpu, vddq, vmem.
the 5-pin-block in the topleft corner of that add-on board can be hooked with plugs to measure the voltages. the 3-pin-block is for measuring the resistance of vmem- and vddg-cermets, the single pin can be used as ground and the two pins behind that are the points to measure the resistance on the vgpu cermets.
yeah.. i like it that way :D...
maybe i'll solder them some time soon.. i just wanted to get the feel without the ability to kill it on the spot :D

[jamaljaco]

Sweet control panel. I wanted to make something like that but I got lazy. So did you just glue the wires into place no solder?

[sky]

well everything on that "control panel" - have to like the name, lol - was soldered to the cables. after put under some hotglue to avoid shortening it inside the case by accident. all spots on the actual card are hotglued, no solder. but as said, i might solder them sometime but before that i will train soldering on an old bnc-network card :D.
and for the control panel - i just had to - control freak and all. i want to know what resistance i get once i crank the cermet. i thought of getting some old analog vu-meters, but lol.. that would really be overkill, tho nice for a casemod...

[Gary Lloyd]

Isn't anyone ready to take the next step, and adjust the refrigerant charge?

If you have simply inserted the evaporator in a res, your system is not finished. It is overcharged for the load. This means that the temps are not as low as they could be, the oil is being diluted with refrigerant, the valves are in danger, and the compressor's days are numbered.

At the very least, you should install a piercing valve, and remove enough refrigerant to make the bottom of the compressor warm (60-70C/140-160F).

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Isn't anyone ready to take the next step, and adjust the refrigerant charge?

If you have simply inserted the evaporator in a res, your system is not finished. It is overcharged for the load. This means that the temps are not as low as they could be, the oil is being diluted with refrigerant, the valves are in danger, and the compressor's days are numbered.

At the very least, you should install a piercing valve, and remove enough refrigerant to make the bottom of the compressor warm (60-70C/140-160F). Gary's venting again!:D

[kommando]

Whoa Jamal you've inspired me to get working on my waterchiller and get it done :)

[sky]

lol, i got some time to work on my chiller now, as my nf7-s got its bios scrambled... doh guess 229,x fsb was too much for it ;)

[FaTs]

I'll be starting one soon, we just pulled 2 old aircons out of the office. I'm planning using them both to cool the coolant.

I knew nothing of this sort of thing, but this thread has given me somewhere to start.

The good thing is that both the coolers probably need recharging so i'm thinking of swapping to 408a and getting the aircon guy to install a valve like Gary suggested.

Anyway I'll have piccy's of the units up tomorrow night :D

[kommando]

Originally posted by FaTs
I'll be starting one soon, we just pulled 2 old aircons out of the office. I'm planning using them both to cool the coolant.

I knew nothing of this sort of thing, but this thread has given me somewhere to start.

The good thing is that both the coolers probably need recharging so i'm thinking of swapping to 408a and getting the aircon guy to install a valve like Gary suggested.

Anyway I'll have piccy's of the units up tomorrow night :D

Ooo sounds nice, i want to find an old aircon but havn't been able to find one. My next project i will make from scratch so should be a hard task but i love hard tasks.

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by FaTs
I'll be starting one soon, we just pulled 2 old aircons out of the office. I'm planning using them both to cool the coolant.

I knew nothing of this sort of thing, but this thread has given me somewhere to start.

The good thing is that both the coolers probably need recharging so i'm thinking of swapping to 408a and getting the aircon guy to install a valve like Gary suggested.

Anyway I'll have piccy's of the units up tomorrow night :D 2 ac's won't get you any colder than one,it don't work that way,it will however allow you to have a greater heatload but one is plenty powerfull enough. 2 is overkill on your overkill.
Also, why do you say they need recharging? Did the refrigerant leak out somehow? If it didn't leak out then your ok.It is a common error (my assumption) to think it needs a little freon or the refrigerant has worn out. Oh, and if you have yours professionaly filled the guy will fill it to match your heatload and then no need for the line tap vavle.:D
anyway I'm glad you found us welcome to the madness!:eek: It's good to have some new blood on this thread ,Gary has been riding my butt to get on with step 2. hehe
;) ;) ;) C-mon with the pics!

[FaTs]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
2 ac's won't get you any colder than one,it don't work that way,it will however allow you to have a greater heatload but one is plenty powerfull enough. 2 is overkill on your overkill.
Also, why do you say they need recharging? Did the refrigerant leak out somehow? If it didn't leak out then your ok.It is a common error (my assumption) to think it needs a little freon or the refrigerant has worn out. Oh, and if you have yours professionaly filled the guy will fill it to match your heatload and then no need for the line tap vavle.:D
anyway I'm glad you found us welcome to the madness!:eek: It's good to have some new blood on this thread ,Gary has been riding my butt to get on with step 2. hehe
;) ;) ;) C-mon with the pics!

Hehe.

I was going to use two so I could increase the heatload. I'm hoping to run a couple of Prescott 2.8's @ around 4-4.1ghz and have them folding 24/7. I've been banned from supercooling in the house after my last project so it's no good for my main rig (but I;m thinking about a Vapo XE for that anyway ;) )

Of course she didn't say I couldn't move my computer into the shed :p:

[jamaljaco]

Right on ,do you plan on having them as seperate chillers or is there a plan in place to share certain componets,pumps ,hoses ,res ect?,
this could rock!

[jamaljaco]

Man, I would live in the shed if I were you , lol.
My lady is a geek and wants herself a chiller also. our projects take over the house, we share in the madness! it's quite nice really

[afireinside]

heh yea if I did my chiller in my room I'd be pretty much screwed. thank god I moved it into the basement. I had 2 MAJOR spills so far :p:

[FaTs]

LoL I don't want to push it, she puts up with me having racks in the study for my F@H farm and generally doesn't whinge when i spend $$ on my toys :)

I was going to run 2 pumps and 2 seperate loops with one res, which i was planning to custom make. I helped my dad build his boat so i have a fair amount of experience with fiberglass.

I was thinking of maybe a small 3rd pump aswell pumping from the pickup area to the return area to cool it quicker..


____________________________
|___________________________| <-- Return Area
|________Core 1______________|
| |
|___________________________|
|________Core 2 _____________|
|___________________________| <-- Pickup Area

I think i'll porbably fibreglass them into the res so the coolant must go through them :)

I just had a look at the aircons they are rated at 1.63kw/5600BTU with r22. So with 3.26kw of cooling, I shouldn't have any temp probs :banana:

[jamaljaco]

Sweet, lets get some pics of those units and get started, hehe.

[Gary Lloyd]

I just had a look at the aircons they are rated at 1.63kw/5600BTU with r22. So with 3.26kw of cooling, I shouldn't have any temp probs


What's the total heat output of everything you are cooling?

[FaTs]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
What's the total heat output of everything you are cooling?

Don't know yet. I've been thinking about it and will probably only use one. Can you convert one of these to a prommie style system ?

They've both been operating in pretty salty conditions so atm they aren't in too great nick. This one is the worst.

Sorry about the crap quality of the pics, it's a new digicam and I haven't figured it out yet. I can't find mine :mad:, when I do i'll post up some high qual pics of the internals

Front (http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~porhul/front.jpg)

Front 2 (http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~porhul/front2.jpg)

Back (http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~porhul/back.jpg)

Specs (http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~porhul/specs.jpg)

[kommando]

WHOOOA DUDE YOUR FROM BRISBANE HOLY FKN §§§§!!! lol.

What suburb you man?

My waterchiller is based in the workshop, might do light work in my room, but defiently not brazing.

[FaTs]

Originally posted by kommando
WHOOOA DUDE YOUR FROM BRISBANE HOLY FKN §§§§!!! lol.

What suburb you man?

My waterchiller is based in the workshop, might do light work in my room, but defiently not brazing.

Capalaba, what about you ?

[kommando]

Me St Lucia, bloody hot.

[FaTs]

I just looked at the other one and the specs are different it's a 7000BTU unit. I'll probably use that one as it seems to work better.

[kommando]

@ Fats, where do you get all your air conditioning units?

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by FaTs
I just looked at the other one and the specs are different it's a 7000BTU unit. I'll probably use that one as it seems to work better. hey , we starving for more pics over here ,lol. got any with the cases removed?

[Conflict]

Well guys..i have read through this entire thread and think i have enough info to proceed.

I have a 10,500 BTU General Electric AC that i plan on using and I am currently fighting with it to get it apart. Seems as if new A/C'c are easier to get apart.


Anyway, my current big problem is I do not know enough about which part is which.....


Also all of the evaps and coils I have seen throughough this thread are just normal radiator looking ones, mine is covered in what seems like a MILLION tiny peices of metal all the way around it.

The other problem here...is which side is the evap...on the back side there is a U shaped thing covered in the tiny peices of metal that covers three sides around the back of the ac...the fan itself was "inside" this in the case....on the front of the A/C where the dials are is another one that i guess kinda looks like a radiator but still has the peices of metal ALL over it...I am assuming this is the evap that will need to be placed in the cooler?


Someone please help..i will take pics if neccesary

[berkut]

Take some if you can.

The best way of finding a evaporator would be looking for a termistor sensor, in the air path or directly connected to thge evaporator or...


... simply turn it on for a second ;]

[jamaljaco]

Yea sounds like a big mutha. I have one like it that draws to many amps to run in my house. anyhow switch in on. The part that gets cold goes in the res. Pics always help.Don't sweat the wire brush looking fins,they are just a different style.

[Conflict]

Yes i turned it on...ran for awhile...but i think somethign has happened to it...it ran fine last winter...kept an entire house AWESONEly cold...well it has been in a garage since and it has been very cold outside..i wonder if somethngs wrong...


I turn it on and I can hear the compressor and everything running..it seems to shake a bit..and then after about 5 mins it almost reminds me of it switching gears or something..lol....the sound gets gradually louder and then the A/C makes like a noise and the compressor shuts off? then the lines that were getting really cold suddenly get really hot...any ideas?

[jamaljaco]

Ok ,I'm no expert, but i'll try.
Is the ac in its proper orientation, botom down,top up ect.?

[Conflict]

well, at first when i was taking it apart it was upside down...but when I started running it, it was sitting the exact way it would sit if it were in the window

[Conflict]

Only difference is...i took off the fan....does the fan HAVE to be on when the A/C is running....could it be getting hot?

[jamaljaco]

I would let it sit for a few and try it again, sound like it tried to pump some liquid that didn't evap off. got pics?

[jamaljaco]

It needs the fan on the condensor.

[Conflict]

Ok...just so i can clear this up...the condenser is the part on back that is U shaped and the fan was "inside it" so to say......i take it the fan is used to cool it off?


Yes i am tryin to find a lamp around the house that i can put next to the A/C for lighting. I will get pics asap...


She is pretty dirty still at this point....OLD...lol

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Conflict
Ok...just so i can clear this up...the condenser is the part on back that is U shaped and the fan was "inside it" so to say......i take it the fan is used to cool it off?


Yes i am tryin to find a lamp around the house that i can put next to the A/C for lighting. I will get pics asap...


She is pretty dirty still at this point....OLD...lol yes the condensor will be the part that was the back,the outside part, dont know about the shape of it ,they can come in many shapes,the fan here is used to cool and condense the vapor into a liquid. that liquid then is forced through the cap tube,a long verry thin tube that leads to the evaporator where the liquid boils off (part that gets cold) don't worry bout the dirt mine were in worse shape,lol.
the fan can be removed from the evaporator,pics will help a lot.

[Conflict]

Ok..the U shaped part i speak of is the part that covers the top and two sides in this pic. The lines on the bottom get very cold right after the coil part..and they go to the radiator on the front...the fan i took of is connected to the motor in the middle there

[Conflict]

Right here is what i suppose you guys call the coil. Sorry i am an extreme noob at all of this but desperately want to do this right and learn it completely.


The "coil" in this picture gets hot to the touch...and then were it straightens out it gets really cold...i don't know how refridgeration works but thats pretty cool hoever it works....anyway, these lines go through to the front which i will show next

[Conflict]

Ok..the str8 lines go through the mtal plate and connect to the "evap?" in the front of the A/C

[jamaljaco]

ok ,the firs pic looks like the condensor the back of the unit correct? the evap (the front coils) the part that will go into a res.

[Conflict]

And heres the good stuff!


I think from looking at it this is 10,500BTU's...someone correct me if I am wrong. Also, if you guys who are way into this can tell if this is a good A/C to sue for this project it would be great!

[Conflict]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
ok ,the firs pic looks like the condensor the back of the unit correct? you need the fan on there. lets get a pic of the front that radiator is the evap the part that will go into a res.

the pic right above your post is the best i can get of the front evap...it is enclosed in a metal casing and i think it is welded together..i can't for the life of me figure out how to get to it...think im gonna have to cut it

[jamaljaco]

Yea posted before I saw the pic.
you can remove any housing any way you need to but don't break any lines ok.

[jamaljaco]

lol I think I have the same unit but i didn't use it it would trip my circuit breakers like 12 amps, put the fan back on the back, fire it up and see what it does

[Conflict]

Yea it makes the lights flicker when it kicks off...im gonna eat some supper and then i will..thanks for the help..i will be back to this post in about an hour!

[jamaljaco]

Yea ,in answer to your question "would this be good to use"?
yes if you can stand power bill run it for extended time w/o tripping a breaker and if you can get that evap into a cooler giving the length of the lines.
I personaly would use a smaller one.

[FaTs]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
hey , we starving for more pics over here ,lol. got any with the cases removed?

Took the case off the compressor last night, the smaller one doesn't seem to be working all that well. It takes a long time to cool down the coils and the compressor is getting very hot.

The bigger one is still in a window waiting to get removed on wenesday, it works alot better. The fan motor has completely died in it and when I was running it yesterday it got the evap down to 0c very quickly with no cooling on the condensor, it overheated before it could really ice up but :D

Edit: I've got some more pics, I'll post them up when I get home from work :)

[Conflict]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
Yea ,in answer to your question "would this be good to use"?
yes if you can stand power bill run it for extended time w/o tripping a breaker and if you can get that evap into a cooler giving the length of the lines.
I personaly would use a smaller one.

The power bill isn't even close to an issue...i have 5 computers running 24/7 3 of which are crunching SETI Wu's. Im pretty sure throwing a a/c in there for a bit ifn;t too bad. I already decided im gonna run a extension cord from the garage to my window for the power...that way it is on its own circuit


Same problem thow...put the fan back on and it still wants to kick off after a few minutes...

Gonna find a way to cut the metal off so i can get the evap free...and i am sure there is plenty enough hosing to get it to the cooler..

[jamaljaco]

remove the thermostat thermocouple from the front of the evap and lets see how long it runs.
you should get beloved ice!

[Conflict]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
remove the thermostat thermocouple from the front of the evap and lets see how long it runs.
you should get beloved ice!



Is that the white wire in the pic of the front??


And she is running now..been running for 10 minutes...lol...i got mad and gave it a bit of a kick..been running since...

[jamaljaco]

Yup, thats it .locate it to a warmer spot if you can , like on the condensor.

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Conflict



And she is running now..been running for 10 minutes...lol...i got mad and gave it a bit of a kick..been running since... thats the spirit! lol.

[Conflict]

lmao...i stuck it inside the heater on the wall right behind the A/C...thats what i figured i should do...set it to somewhere warm so it fools it into thinking it needs to be cooler!

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Conflict
lmao...i stuck it inside the heater on the wall right behind the A/C...thats what i figured i should do...set it to somewhere warm so it fools it into thinking it needs to be cooler! yep now get a temp guage and see what it pulls down to, and get a pic of the frost for fun.lol.

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by FaTs
Took the case off the compressor last night, the smaller one doesn't seem to be working all that well. It takes a long time to cool down the coils and the compressor is getting very hot.

The bigger one is still in a window waiting to get removed on wenesday, it works alot better. The fan motor has completely died in it and when I was running it yesterday it got the evap down to 0c very quickly with no cooling on the condensor, it overheated before it could really ice up but :D

Edit: I've got some more pics, I'll post them up when I get home from work :) Did you remove the fan and the thermostat from the evap?

[Conflict]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
yep now get a temp guage and see what it pulls down to, and get a pic of the frost for fun.lol.

No frost at all..it is cold to the touch but there is no frost...something must be wrong :(

[jamaljaco]

Yup, we still got a fan blowing air through it. its most likely a squirl cage type,underneath that housing your were having trouble with. this is the fan that needs to be removed. remove the fan from the shaft and saw the shaft off,or just saw the shaft to remove the fan if you can get to it.the 2 fans will most likely share a single shaft, so disabling the fan motor wont help as you need the other fan running for the condensor, sorry I forgot to mention that important detail, lol.
these things wont frost up if they are still trying to cool the entire room.

[FaTs]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
Did you remove the fan and the thermostat from the evap?

The fans removed from the evap.

I can't find thermostat as such, just as piece of hollow hose that sits on the front on the evap, I routed that under the compressor. The first 4 'loops' of the evap get cold but it takes a very long time for the rest of it too come down.

It will completely freeze up the first 4 but the last couple stay at room temp.

[sky]

well, my thermostat was broke or missing - or both ;) so i had to short it so to speak.. so now it will always run, which probably isn't necessary to cool my unit down good.

conflict, the last two pics you posted are your condenser, the coils are the evap and why the hell did they get hot?? (or did i get something wrong). btw if the whole rig has been upside down, you would flip it back to normal and have it rest for some hours - i was told 24hrs should be best - to let the oil settle at the bottom of the compressor. i know i always did this - maybe i'm being to "safety first" ;), but hell it won't do you no harm, just a test of patience, lol

[Conflict]

Well...i finally figured out my game plan and I ended up taking a bunch of new pictures......not sure what the heck is going on though because i use a digital camcored to take pics and then a tv capture card to pull the pics and save them...my software for the card is refusing to work so im stuck explaining this all right now.


Anyway, i cut through the casing with a pair of bolt cutters and now have a safe route to sinply lift the condensor, evap and compressor all out of where the sit right now...once that is done i "should" be able to safely bend the evap to the opposite side of where it sits now so that i can put it in the cooler. It looks as if there is plenty enough line.
My only worrry is the fact that there are two hoses on the bottom and two on the top...gonna be a big trick to succesfully bend everything with no problems.

Anyway, she is now frosting up very nicely and the entire evap is layering up ith frost in literally seconds...looks as if a 10,500 BTU a/c is gonna do the trick !


i am done for the night....gonna play a game of NHL 2004 and then sleep...thanks for the help guys..more to come tommorrow!

[Conflict]

Ok guys....i lost alot of sleep thinking of my plan for the night and the biggest problem I have right now is the fan. From my understanding it is NEEDED for the condesor.

Is it only needed to help cool it?

Se the big problem is the way this A/C is set up the lines go through the big bulky metal casing that everything is placed in. I succesfully cut through it and I can raise everything out of it and I plan on giving it a new home on a wood stand. But my problem is what to do about the fan. It is mounted nicely in the middle and provides perfect blowing to all parts of the condensor.

Would it still work well if I took a farely large house floor fan and had it blowing on it? that would work the best because it would allow me to work with the evap, compressor and condensor in ANYWAY i wanted. The way this is set up Im gonna have to completely switch the side the evap is on to have room to place the evap in a cooler.

Anyone know if my floor fan will work?

[Gary Lloyd]

It is absolutely essential that the condenser has enough air flowing through it to get rid of the heat. Will the floor fan work? I have no idea. The temperature of the air leaving the condenser should be no more than 10C higher than the temperature of the air entering the condenser, if that helps. It would be best to work with the original design as much as possible.

[Gary Lloyd]

Is it only needed to help cool it?


The word "only" does not belong in this sentence. Insufficient airflow can destroy the compressor. It is important.

[Conflict]

Well what doesn;t work about that is the fact that the original design of the casing leaves me absolutely NO room to move the evap more then an inch or two in ANY direction..in order to move the evap i am going to have to completely raise everything into the air out of the casing and then bend the piping to the complete opposite side.... i suppose there is still the chance of bending it to the other side and then placing the condensor and compressor back where they currently sit

[Conflict]

OK..i figured it out and dang i wish my capture card was working..i have the evap in the cooler sitting perfectly....ALMOST kinked a line but stopped just in time..hopefully it isn;lt weakened under pressure.....im gonna take a cinder block and place it in the old casing and place the fan that was in the A/C on the side of the condesor so that it blows just the way it was before..... im thinking this will work

[Gary Lloyd]

Bending tools make the job SO much easier. The tool firmly grips the entire circumference of the tube while bending it, making it virtually impossible to kink it.

[jamaljaco]

Hi folks, just got in from work. Sound like things are going well.Conflict, if you havn't already I would grab a garden hose and wash all the bugs and such out of that evap clean it up real nice so your not running debris through your coolant system.

[Conflict]

OMG guys i need advice...ok im using a 10,500 BTU A/C...im assuming that means it is capable of reaching VERY cold temps with this form of cooling...well..i am using a anti-freeze that is suppose to be good to -64F at 60/40....well....i mixed everything together for awhile in seperated container and then poured it in there.....literally within minutes of starting everything up i had a half an inch of ice on the first foot of line of the evap...and now it is rapidly spreading. I am thinking that a solid layer of ice can;t be very good because then it won;t have all the "area" to cool...by area I mean amount of piping open...i hope that makes sense...

Any ideas.....should my temps be this cold?

[Conflict]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
Hi folks, just got in from work. Sound like things are going well.Conflict, if you havn't already I would grab a garden hose and wash all the bugs and such out of that evap clean it up real nice so your not running debris through your coolant system.

Yea one of the first things i did was clean out the evap...lmao...i put it in the shower in the basement (just a single stall shower that is hardly used during the winter) and connected a hose to the water lines from the washing machine....cleaned it out nice.


Well guys...im not sure what to do..i added a whole nother thing of anti-freeze...but to no avail...my evap is currently a solid chunk of ice


Any suggestions

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Conflict
OMG guys i need advice...ok im using a 10,500 BTU A/C...im assuming that means it is capable of reaching VERY cold temps with this form of cooling...well..i am using a anti-freeze that is suppose to be good to -64F at 60/40....well....i mixed everything together for awhile in seperated container and then poured it in there.....literally within minutes of starting everything up i had a half an inch of ice on the first foot of line of the evap...and now it is rapidly spreading. I am thinking that a solid layer of ice can;t be very good because then it won;t have all the "area" to cool...by area I mean amount of piping open...i hope that makes sense...

Any ideas.....should my temps be this cold? Your running r-22 it will only get so cold, mine is -25c. the 10.500 btu's means it will handle one hell of a heat load. I have foud that the ratings on the antifreeze jugs don't apply here lol.

[Gary Lloyd]

Are you circulating the anti-freeze? It needs to be kept moving through the evaporator coils.

[jamaljaco]

yep shut it off and clean it out .lmao.
you need methanol straight or a mix of methanol/water or methanol/antifreeze. I prefer around 65/35 methanol/antifreeze.

[Blergo]

ideas? dont use antifreeze, use something that wont freeze at the temperatures your chiller is runing at ;-) i believe gas line antifreeze?? or denatured alcohol is what you want. just make sure you seal theres up niceley otherwise it will evaporate and you dont want to breethe too much of it.
cheers, owen

[jamaljaco]

I have tried just about every combination of methanol water and antifreeze .

[Conflict]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Are you circulating the anti-freeze? It needs to be kept moving through the evaporator coils.

No...i don't have a way to ciculate it....the evap is just "chilling"..lol...it is just sitting in it...how should i go about getting the liquid ion there to constantly flow?

[jamaljaco]

This is the part the where things can get confusing do to the wording but if you dig a little and read labels you will find that

gas line antifreeze = methanol
denatured alcohol = ethyl alcohol rendered poison usualy with methanol and some other goodies with similar properties
window washer fluid = methanol and water
Methyl alcohol = methanol
wood alcohol = methyl alcohol = methanol = CH3OH.

Methanol has a melting point of -97.8c

[jamaljaco]

I have found that even agitated antifreeze will slush up and be unpumpable. Unless of course your using something like the water pump in your auto

[Gary Lloyd]

No...i don't have a way to ciculate it....the evap is just "chilling"..lol...it is just sitting in it...how should i go about getting the liquid ion there to constantly flow?

With a pump?

[Gary Lloyd]

I have found that even agitated antifreeze will slush up and be unpumpable.


Glycol based anti-freeze thickens when cold, making it more difficult to pump. Alcohol based anti-freeze, such as methanol, I think is better for our purposes.

[jamaljaco]

So yea what sort of pump are we talking here .
lol= gary.

[jamaljaco]

I'm pretty sure he has glycol in there.hehe

[Conflict]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
With a pump?


well right now i am simply testing the system...once i put in my pump for my water cooling system will that be sufficeint enough to circulate the water>

[jamaljaco]

I only use the glycol based stuff for its anticorrosive agents and just enough to keep the flashpoint down on the methanol.

[Gary Lloyd]

What mixture would you recommend, Jamal?

[Gary Lloyd]

well right now i am simply testing the system...once i put in my pump for my water cooling system will that be sufficeint enough to circulate the water>

Yes, that should be sufficient.

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Conflict
well right now i am simply testing the system...once i put in my pump for my water cooling system will that be sufficeint enough to circulate the water> works for me but I have just a little over 2 gallons of coolant and a 500 gph pump and a 75 gph pump. How much coolant you have by the way ?

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
What mixture would you recommend, Jamal? right around 60/40 methanol/water or 60/40 methanol/glycol based for the anticorrosive agent . I like 65/35 as it pumps a bit better but its more flamable.

[Conflict]

Well right now i have a Eheim 1260 pump and there is 5 gallons of fluid in there...and with my cooler and the lack of piping that is the least i can use..it JUST covers the evap.....but i set it in there for now and i can for sure see the difference...definately mixing things up...i think i am gonna leave on in there and buy another for running the water cooling lines


wow this is definately a learnign experience....i can;t believe how cold it is.

[jamaljaco]

Yea a lot of fun huh? Not to difficult either. so what temp you getting ???

just so you know the least expensive way I've found to purchase methanol is in the one gallon cans sold as shallac thinner in paint departments here in the us it runs around $9.00 a gallon.

[jamaljaco]

coldest thing I've experienced to date is when I put a 50 watt peltier on my cpu block chilled down to -25c. The peltier was -40c I couldn't resist the urge to lick off all that pretty frost...

[Conflict]

I have no idea what the temps are exactly...i have no thermometer of any kind to check...all i know is i stuck a small platic cup full of water in the coolant and checked it an hour later and it was frozen solid....im guessing around -20c to -30C

[jamaljaco]

I think it would be really neat if you could run down to the nearest home and garden center and grab an indoor/outdoor thermometer that goes down to -40c or so...AND GET US SOME PICS! lol. hehe.

[Conflict]

well i can take pics of the ice and substantial amounts of frost on the lines but my capture card died after posting pics last night...


If anyone knows of a program that can be used with firewire to get video off of a digital camcorder PLEASE let me know.


I think i may shut it off and let all the ice melt over night and then start again since i have the pump in there now..i bet i could get colder
also..lmao..the way i have everything else set up is terrible...a mess..haha...all I cared about was the evap getting in that cooler!

[Conflict]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
I think it would be really neat if you could run down to the nearest home and garden center and grab an indoor/outdoor thermometer that goes down to -40c or so...AND GET US SOME PICS! lol. hehe.

as for the nearest home and garden center.....lol...umm...i guess im not real keen on driving an hour and a half for a thermometer..ahaha

[GeekGoddess]

Conflict, what video editing programs do you have? I use either Microsoft Movie Maker 2.0 or WinDVD.

[jamaljaco]

Well props man ! you got it in with no broken lines,I'm sure that took some creative thinking from what I saw in the pics,

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Conflict
as for the nearest home and garden center.....lol...umm...i guess im not real keen on driving an hour and a half for a thermometer..ahaha So radio in yer mate with the bush plane and have him drop you one ,lol...
:D

[Conflict]

hehe guys guess what conflict did!...I managed to get my capture card back to life...for some reason i always have problems with it when using windows 2000!

Anyway, i uninstalled it..moved it to a seperate slot and now it is working!

Here come the pics!

[Conflict]

Well...here is that beautiful color white......the lines frosting up pretty

This is while everything was still together

[Conflict]

A close up of the bottom lines


man it was soo hard to cut them free!

[Conflict]

The top line...also a PITA to get free...but i had a plan and stuck to it!

[Conflict]

I will go take pics of my current mess downstairs...lol

[Conflict]

Look at all that ice!

[Conflict]

more ice

[Conflict]

The whole setup..yea i still have alot of stuff to do with setting up the condensor and compressor in a final spot on wood...this was just a setup to get the evap in ice quick to test

[Conflict]

Here is my pump under the coolant...mixing it all up

[Conflict]

That is the pictures i have for now..if any one would like a more specific pis let me know....wow..im impressed

[jamaljaco]

OMG! It morphed!

[GeekGoddess]

Conflict, you said you ran this thing all last winter...where you at? Down Under?

[Conflict]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
OMG! It morphed!

HAHA..i wish it had morphed...then i wouldn;t have had to spend the time and break such a sweat getting it situated

[jamaljaco]

I'm thinking the orientation of that evap needs to be as close to the original as posible as i do believe gravity aids in this process.

[Conflict]

Originally posted by GeekGoddess
Conflict, you said you ran this thing all last winter...where you at? Down Under?

All last summer...lol..i wish i was down under


Actually im in northern MN...i already overclocked my computer with much colder temps then this last week when it was -40F at night...stuck it on the roof....now im just messing around really...wanted to see what i could do...i am the kinda guy who loves finding new projects

[kokoro_kara]

Rock On :rocker:

I'm watching because I think I have the sickness too!!!

Great thread and keep up the good work!!!

And the pics :slobber:

[GeekGoddess]

Originally posted by Conflict
All last summer...lol..i wish i was down under


Actually im in northern MN...i already overclocked my computer with much colder temps then this last week when it was -40F at night...stuck it on the roof....now im just messing around really...wanted to see what i could do...i am the kinda guy who loves finding new projects


Well then, it seems that was a heckova typo! LOL
BTW,,welcome to the sickness! :D

[GeekGoddess]

Originally posted by Conflict
...it ran fine last winter...kept an entire house AWESONEly cold...well it has been in a garage since

:D :stick: LOL

[Conflict]

Originally posted by GeekGoddess
:D :stick: LOL

yea i have my moments

[jamaljaco]

Geek Goddess this fine lad works his @ss of on this project and you poke him with a stick.

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
I'm thinking the orientation of that evap needs to be as close to the original as posible as i do believe gravity aids in this process. yup, something like this, vapor into the top of the condenser, liquid out the bottom. Liquid into the bottom of the evaporator, vapor out the top. http://oberon.ark.com/~airekool/rb2.htm

[jamaljaco]

I would try to get that evap more upright.

[GeekGoddess]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
Geek Goddess this fine lad works his @ss of on this project and you poke him with a stick.

I'l poke YOU with a stick!!! ;) :D
:stick: :stick: :stick: :stick: :stick: :stick: :stick: :stick:

[Conflict]

well..currently i have absolutely no way to get the evap upright....the lines i have to work with are nowhere near long enough to situate it upright...if i decide to make this a major build i may go ahead and lengthen everything so that it is a really "pretty" setup and everything is situated correctly...for now...im learning and having fun!

[jamaljaco]

Conflict, the advice I was giving you had nothing to do with aesthetics it's a matter of functionality. I wasn't saying it had to be perfectly upright, just more so would be a lot better. just raise the top so that its higher than the bottom, as much as you can. Maybe we can get Gary to comment on this.I'm no expert ,hardly a novice..

[Conflict]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
Conflict, the advice I was giving you had nothing to do with aesthetics it's a matter of functionality. I wasn't saying it had to be perfectly upright, just more so would be a lot better. just raise the top so that its higher than the bottom, as much as you can. Maybe we can get Gary to comment on this.I'm no expert ,hardly a novice..

Jamal, sorry to say but this is the absolute best i think i can do...any more upright is gonna result in more fluid being added...which is gonna result in less flow and more ice....lol..its a lose lose situation i think...but....i am happy to say i think i am satisfied with this setup

I may go with alcohol though

[Conflict]

hehehe...my water block formed frost...in about 3 minutes of use....0o0o0o0o this is gonna be fun!

[Gary Lloyd]

Ewwwww... Nasty ugly white stuff everywhere.

Frost is the enemy. Insulation is our friend. :D

[kommando]

time for neoprene and seal string action.

[Gary Lloyd]

Just as a point of interest, some may be wondering why the condenser fan blade has a ring around the edge. This is called a "slinger ring". The air conditioner dehumifies the air. The water moves to the condenser section, is picked up by the slinger and sprayed onto the warm condenser coil. This gets rid of the water and helps to cool the condenser at the same time.

[kommando]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Just as a point of interest, some may be wondering why the condenser fan blade has a ring around the edge. This is called a "slinger ring". The air conditioner dehumifies the air. The water moves to the condenser section, is picked up by the slinger and sprayed onto the warm condenser coil. This gets rid of the water and helps to cool the condenser at the same time.


OOo coool, i soo want the aircon above me. Its mine i said!!

[Conflict]

wow....more then 14 hours since i shut the unit off ans the ice has barely melted....the liquid is still VERY cold

[Gary Lloyd]

Got the pump running? Circulation will help melt the ice.

[Conflict]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Got the pump running? Circulation will help melt the ice.

yea it was running since early this morning..i just took it out a little while ago because i am setting up the water cooling kit and lines...think im gonna try to see what kinda temps I can get a CPU down to. Im also looking how i can modify a AMD water block to fit on a Pentium 4 Chip...grrr...i have already maxed out all of my AMD computers using air( -40F air)...so i wann see what my Pentium 4 machines can do

[jamaljaco]

Just wondering , what was your cpu temp with the -40f air ? What chip, volts and clock?

[Conflict]

CPU temp was measured by Motherboard montior and was around 11F at FULL load.

Chip was a AMD 3200 i am rather new to overclocking so i am not sure about the exact number the volt was at...it was as high as possible. And i was able to get it to post at 2970 something...I could bench with 3d mark at 2800+.

[jamaljaco]

Sweet,
just think now you don't have to freeze yer @ss of to clock.
You get a temp guage yet? and some kinda alcohol?

[Conflict]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
Sweet,
just think now you don't have to freeze yer @ss of to clock.
You get a temp guage yet? and some kinda alcohol?

i never had to freeze my butt off before either...i just stuck the computer on the roof.


Nope..i can;t afford a guage or alcohol yet

[Conflict]

Well im not sure exactly how correct this thermometer is but i took the front grill off of one of my computers because it has a thermostat on there. I went downstairs and grabbed bout an inch worth of coolant from the cooler and ran upstairs to test it..when i first put the temp probe in it said -27C...by the time in had the camera ready to record this is what she showed

[Conflict]

After an hour of running the machine thats not too bad


The weird thing is...all of the ice i had form yesterday...well more then 24 hours later it was still -5C in there....this is truly extreme cooling...wow...less then an hour to cool 5 gallons of fluid more then 20 degrees..pretty xtreme! Im gonna leave it running over night and see what i can get

[chilly1]

thats probably 1000 btu/hr..

[Conflict]

Originally posted by chilly1
thats probably 1000 btu/hr..


if i let this run all night long what do you think my temps will be...


I just insulated the cover of the cooler with the neoprene insualtion you sent me..made it so there is no other air getting in there when the cover is shut..i also insulated the lines from just off the compressor all the way to the cooler.

Im hoping for -40C by morning

[Conflict]

Well the fun begins...fluid temps down to -34C. I just built a computer too see what kinda of overclock i can get. Because I overclocked my 3200 as far as it could go on extremely cold air..this time i decided to use a AMD 2000+ to see how far it will push...i am freezing the chip for a few hours right now...and then time for some fun!

[Conflict]

Well im not satisfied completely...it isn;t cold enough for my needs....when i used the cold air outside the chip was never above freezing...now it is hovering around 11C. I have contact problems and there is nothing i can do about it at this time..i think it is maybe the springs on the waterblock.


I am sooo interested in cooling now i want to make it into a direct die!

[Gary Lloyd]

You haven't tuned it yet, so you don't know how low it can go.

Next you need to get a piercing valve and a set of gauges.

[Conflict]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
You haven't tuned it yet, so you don't know how low it can go.

Next you need to get a piercing valve and a set of gauges.


Is there a poor person overclocking refrigeration fund...lol....

[Gary Lloyd]

We are not talking bigtime expenditures here. Piercing valves are cheap, and you will need gauges for whatever you want to do next. You will need to learn how to tune the refrigerant charge before you even think about going direct die. And you can eventually transform the system you have into direct die, too. First you need to acquire a few basic skills.

Just because it makes the water cold doesn't mean it is working right. Not even close. It can make that water a LOT colder.

[Conflict]

Ok, there seems to be an issue here...is it possible that due to the ince of frost...lol..yea seriously an inch....on the pipes before the cooler that I am losing alot of cooling power. Yesterday I had temps of -34C. Right now I have temps of -15C. The CPU has been on but there is no way i lost that much temperture due to the CPU. Especially since i have 5 gallons of fluid in there.

Does frost on the lines take away from the end result coolness?

[Gary Lloyd]

If something feels cool to the touch, it wants insulation. If it feels cold, it needs insulation. If it frosts, it is screaming for insulation. Frost is the enemy. Insulation is our friend.

You are probably having oil problems as well, because the system has WAY too much refrigerant in it.

[Conflict]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd

You are probably having oil problems as well, because the system has WAY too much refrigerant in it.


Well, how do i go about telling. I spoke with chilly1 and explained to him how everything is set up and sounded good. We were worried about liquid refrigerant making it back to the compressor but no probs with that....


How do you tell if there is WAY to much refrigeratn in it.

I turned the unit off and once it all melts off the lines i am gonna insulate the he!! out of it.


I want this as cold as possible!

[Gary Lloyd]

Well, how do i go about telling. I spoke with chilly1 and explained to him how everything is set up and sounded good. We were worried about liquid refrigerant making it back to the compressor but no probs with that....


How do you know that?

I want this as cold as possible!

Me too. Get a piercing valve and a set of gauges. Then after you get it tuned, we will talk about changing the cap tube to make it even colder.

[Conflict]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
How do you know that?



Me too. Get a piercing valve and a set of gauges. Then after you get it tuned, we will talk about changing the cap tube to make it even colder.


What guages exactly..and ill see what i can do

[Gary Lloyd]

Something like this:

http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Tools_&_Equipment/gauge_sets.asp

[Gary Lloyd]

This site also has gauges. And piercing valves as well. Click on "product locator" and "line piercing access valves".

http://jbind.com/

[kokoro_kara]

With these type of chiller setups, would a pestier be of any assistance in lower temps on the chip??

If so what wattage for the various chips?

Thanks

K

edit/ ummm, heh a peltier!

:)

[Conflict]

Insulating every square inch from the compressor to the coolant level has helped a TON. -41C right now!

Oh..and damn girls..my wife told me to stick my tongue to the block to see how cold it was....well..i am from Northern Mn, i should know better then to stick my tongue to metal thats -40, well, not thinking because it was so small and in my house...i tried it OUCH!

Anyway...it is awesomely cold, i just can;t convince my cpu to work correctly. Gonna try a different motherboard tommorrow.

[kommando]

Where can i get vacuum pump things and fill gauges in aus?

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Conflict
Ok, there seems to be an issue here...is it possible that due to the ince of frost...lol..yea seriously an inch....on the pipes before the cooler that I am losing alot of cooling power. Yesterday I had temps of -34C. Right now I have temps of -15C. The CPU has been on but there is no way i lost that much temperture due to the CPU. Especially since i have 5 gallons of fluid in there.

Does frost on the lines take away from the end result coolness? I take it the evaporator is still laying flat on its back, and your saying" there seems to be an issue here". There is an inch of frost on your lines. your loosing cooling power and yes you can lose that much cooling power to a cpu its happining.Sounds like you need more evaporation to go on in the evaporator and a little less everywhere else.

[Conflict]

Originally posted by jamaljaco
I take it the evaporator is still laying flat on its back, and your saying" there seems to be an issue here". There is an inch of frost on your lines. your loosing cooling power and yes you can lose that much cooling power to a cpu its happining.Sounds like you need more evaporation to go on in the evaporator and a little less everywhere else.

Yea i did an insulation job and i did it the xtreme way..lol...two layers every square inch of piping..lol...i have gained(lost..however ya wanna see it) considerable temps! At -41 right now

[kommando]

Conflict, that with direct die with your ac unit?

[Conflict]

Originally posted by kommando
Conflict, that with direct die with your ac unit?

Nope it isn;t a direct die yet!

Just a plain ole waterchiller

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Conflict
Yea i did an insulation job and i did it the xtreme way..lol...two layers every square inch of piping..lol...i have gained(lost..however ya wanna see it) considerable temps! At -41 right now And what is it doing at idle? Or fully loaded?

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by kokoro_kara
With these type of chiller setups, would a pestier be of any assistance in lower temps on the chip??

If so what wattage for the various chips?

Thanks

K

edit/ ummm, heh a peltier!

:) With a chilled pelt you can kick @ss. Your pelt still needs to be the right wattage for your heatload . I did some experiments with a 50 watt pelt just to se what it would do unloaded .

[Conflict]

Well my motherboard bios doesn;t show anythign below 0C (32F). When anything is below that it just goes blank.

And when i was downstairs testing it was blank. Im not real happy right now because I screwedup the hard drive. After my first attmept at raising the FSB from 133 to 160 it posted and went into windows. Went back into bios after restarting and it showed 3C. Took the next step and tried doing 175 it started to load windows...after the final loading screen I got a blue screen error claiming Inaccessible Boot Device. I am reformating and installing windows right now to try again. No idea what happened.


Coolant temps is still showing -41C. I am not sure if the CPU will put off enough heat to raise the coolant temps that much.

[Conflict]

OK...well I went out and bought a real temperture monitoring device from the hard ware store. It only reports Farenheit tempertures but at elast i know it reports them accurately.

And im not real happy ...it is only reporting -4F in the coldest spot i can find in the cooler.

I guess I was hoping for much more cold. Any tips or tricks....i mean it still keeps my CPU below freezing...but there must be a way to get colder temps

[jamaljaco]

Well, Lets see,hmmm? Oh yea , maybe having your evaporator laying flat on its back in the bottom of your res could be the.... No wait that cant be it .lol.

[Conflict]

lol...yea yea yea....if i had a way to move it i would

But really....how much of a difference could it really make how it is situated...the refrigerant is still evaporating...

[jamaljaco]

I believe with some creative thinking you could find a solution.Still evaporating yes ,but ask yourself where? You want as much of the refrigerant as posible to evaporate where it was intended and where you have your coolant .http://www.phase-change.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1187

[Conflict]

Well i turned everything off for tonight...i think tommorrow I am gonna try to at least bend it to a 45 degree angle

[jamaljaco]

Originally posted by Conflict
Well i turned everything off for tonight...i think tommorrow I am gonna try to at least bend it to a 45 degree angle :stick: Hehe, yea ,just sit and look at it for a while something will come to you , also if you raise the coolant level think of something to to displace it so you dont have to add more ,you may even find a way to use less coolant through displacement .Don't expect your temps just to drop a bunch I don't think it will do that but I do think it will help you with the load it will handle, A lot of the guys I see with AC chillers get around -25c coolant temps as they are overcharged as Gary keeps reminding us we wont get the real drops till we tune our charge.

[Gary Lloyd]

I don't believe your new thermometer. But then, I didn't believe your old thermometer, either. Try them in icewater and see if they are somewhere near accurate.

[Gary Lloyd]

A lot of the guys I see with AC chillers get around -25c coolant temps as they are overcharged as Gary keeps reminding us we wont get the real drops till we tune our charge.

More importantly, the compressor isn't safe from floodback. I'm thinking your system has an accumulator in the suction line. That is the device that is saving your compressor. I don't recall seeing one on conflicts's system.

[Conflict]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
I don't believe your new thermometer. But then, I didn't believe your old thermometer, either. Try them in icewater and see if they are somewhere near accurate.


What dont you believe about the new thermometer? Do you think it is lower or higher then that?

This is a Taylor temperture probe that is suppose to be used for liquid temps. I got it from the hardware store and my cousin whos dad owns the local refrigeration place reccomended this thermometer...so as far as I am concerned it is right.

I stuck it outside the window and it is reporting the exact same temperture as my outdoor thermometer and the weather channel are reporting.

[Conflict]

I spoke with chilly1 and he said that i should slightly pinch the cap lines going into the evap and that will help me to drop the temps. I guess I didn;t totally understand the reasoning but I trust what he says so i think im gonna try it tommorrow after I rebend everything to its final resting spot