DangerDen RBX Waterblock

[The_Loserkid]

Dangerden's new waterblock with dual outlet looks promising and seems to perform quite good

http://www.themodfathers.com/Reviews/dd_rbx/6.jpg


http://www.themodfathers.com/Reviews/dd_rbx/11.jpg


http://www.themodfathers.com/Reviews/dd_rbx/void.jpg

http://www.themodfathers.com/reviews/dd_rbx.php


looks sweet :)

[Marci]

Got one on test at the mo...

So far, with an X1800+ JIUHB DLT3C at stock on NF7-S rev2, maintained core at ambient under 100% load (Eheim 1250 pump, HE120.1 Rad, Delta VHE fan...)

Clocked up to 2.5Ghz at 2v (200x12.5), full load at 14 above ambient... 100% stable

[nikhsub1]

There are many threads on the various forums re the RBX which the person who designed it (WaterPimp) coined it a White Water clone. DD did not design this block (Hardly matters, just an FYI) and it is indeed a WW clone. Can't wait to see peoples faces when they see that the RBX won't even cover the entire A64 IHS, hehe.

One of the many threads: http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8280

[pulverizer]

wow, long thread....getting tired

[pulverizer]

whew... just finished reading that whole thread.
Man, that procooling place is scary, I don't think i would ever be able to post there.

[nikhsub1]

Originally posted by pulverizer
whew... just finished reading that whole thread.
Man, that procooling place is scary, I don't think i would ever be able to post there.
No it is NOT scary. Procooling is (in my book) THE place for serious cooling discussions. The people over there know what they are talking about. The deep end of the pool if you will. If you want to learn, they are more than willing to help. It is when ignorant people go there and profess how much they know (or the like) is when things can get ugly.

[pulverizer]

Oh no, I read over there all the time, they do have the most in-depth info about anything related to watercooling. I just don't ever post...

[mdzcpa]

Originally posted by nikhsub1
No it is NOT scary. Procooling is (in my book) THE place for serious cooling discussions. The people over there know what they are talking about. The deep end of the pool if you will. If you want to learn, they are more than willing to help. It is when ignorant people go there and profess how much they know (or the like) is when things can get ugly.

Not really. I went there for help a long while back and was totally hosed just for asking "stupid questions". There is no sense of "community" there....and certainly no rules which enforce respect for members rights not to be openly flamed....regardless of who is right and wrong. That thread should have been shut down long ago by the staff. But, the egos over there take precedence I guess.

Bottom line, conduct like that would never be allowed here at XtremeSystems (nor on LiquidNinjas for that matter). I don't care whether the person doing all that flaming is the God of Overclocking, The King of Water Cooling, or Jesus Christ himself....behavior like that would never be tolerated.

I've never seen such a worthless flamefest thread here at XS, that's for sure.

[antipop]

It looks like a mix between the WW and the cascade (those little holes), i'd like to see how it performs but i bet it doesn't performs as well as a WW

[drunkenmaster]

i hate to bash cathar, well, its not to bash cathar in any way whatsoever. But fien channels, in my mind ,are not singular to him, micro channels, IMHO, increase the surface area by providing bumps where needed most. Having the thinist distances increase teh surface area. To tall and you get a lotta problems getting water in and out. you can see this is air heatsinks, thin copper fins, though with water, the height of a fin like an slk would make water pressure, and movement difficult, also teh efficiency of water makes teh height unneeded, but these are fundemental principles.

Also, no offence, teh specific jet idea is very good. But back in the day where one end of block was intake and one was outtake, and people started to design central intake blocks, that is one big waterjet creating more downward pressure over the most important part of the block. Yours is far more advanced, but it was always gonna come, i can't really see what other ideas people were gonna come up with from basic maze, intake center, surface area, thinner and thinner bases and getting water as close to core as possible.

I do credit cathar, no doubt about that, but reading through that thread, and this is compliment to cathar, he has a shed load of fanboys(yoyu should command them to do stuff, cathars army ;) ). But beyond that, i don't see that the idea wasn't going to come forward, micro channel was IMHO, obvious but as has been shown expensive and time consuming, so it wasn't needed to now as many other ideas where coming forward in a relatively new field of design. DD, and many other companies came up with idea's of there own that pushed performance forward, they did this to a point where cathar NEEDED to take the next step in design. I don't see any credit going aroudn to who came up with central intake, or maze, or copper or waterblock in teh first place, they are forgotten and barely known.


Eitehr way, i hope this block goes well, and i hope it pushes cathar on to coming up with something new, which will in turn make dd and swiffy and others do something new.

I also reclaim(as forums i posted it on 2 years ago or so) my idea for a waterblock based on some kinda similar to current best designs, but with either 2 separate cascade style chambers, or three or four, one right over core, and a couple on areas with heatpipes transfering heat too.something, i dunno. hmm, also, precise engineering base that can increase transfer area by fitting over the core, with contact on the sides too ;) won't be much contact on those sides, but some is better than none.

[drunkenmaster]

Also cathar, i got down to where you said the WW had a replaceable jet piece, where they available? I don't really remember. I do like the idea of a slightly tuneable block if you have a lower or higher flowrate system.

As for this thread, i fully agree, pro cooling, i used to hang out, haven't for a good year now. I find it too much effort to read there, too much flaming, not enough help.

So i didn't read past 2nd page of that thread. Was much said about the heatspreader size of a th 64 then, is it too thin to actually fit over it. I guess cooling the whole thing would help, but afaik, assuming teh area incontact with the concentrated area over teh core is being cooled best, the heat will still moev away from the core towards the coolest area fastest, so it should almost not effect the end cooling. Well, testing would show. just remind me of the aeroflow vantec sink, the copper slug, circle, didn't actually cover a p4 heatspreader, yet gave very good temps.

[masta_gettotech]

Originally posted by mdzcpa
Not really. I went there for help a long while back and was totally hosed just for asking "stupid questions". There is no sense of "community" there....and certainly no rules which enforce respect for members rights not to be openly flamed....regardless of who is right and wrong. That thread should have been shut down long ago by the staff. But, the egos over there take precedence I guess.

Bottom line, conduct like that would never be allowed here at XtremeSystems (nor on LiquidNinjas for that matter). I don't care whether the person doing all that flaming is the God of Overclocking, The King of Water Cooling, or Jesus Christ himself....behavior like that would never be tolerated.

I've never seen such a worthless flamefest thread here at XS, that's for sure.


ditto. could't have said it better my self.

It is when ignorant people go there and profess how much they know (or the like) is when things can get ugly.

like the way they hammered p0 over there eh? way to look professional folks:stick: i don't know but since when in the hell do knowledgeable people get an automatic flame all license. every time someone points out the lack of good etiquette of a few over there no one come up with a reasonable justification for all those short fuses and titanic egos.

don't get me wrong it is a good place to gather information but some people need to check their egos at the door over there.

[Player0]

I just finished my review on the blocks if anyone is interested.

http://www.liquidninjas.com/reviews.php?op=showcontent&id=50&title=Waterblock+Round-Up+2003

ProCooling was an interesting experience for sure.

[Cathar]

drunkenmaster, it is perhaps best if I answer your posts with a statement that I made over at [H] regarding people's perceptions of what I did or did not do/contribute.


A concept copy will draw upon the significant features that form the basis of the design.

For the White Water, that would be a set of parallel mini-channels with a slot nozzle spanning the channels. Prior to the existance of the White Water such a design did not exist (to my knowledge). Everyone talks about the mini/micro-channel aspect of the White Water as if that is its unique design feature, and when others say that it isn't, they are correct. I never considered the mini/micro-channels of a White Water to ever be a unique design feature either. What was unique about the design was the introduction of the slot nozzle spanning the channels above the CPU die area. The combination of the slot nozzle spanning the channels is what I personally define as the quintessential "White Water" design.

For the Cascade, I define that design a little more specifically. Basically it's a plenum/manifold chamber feeding into an array of jet tubes (of any orientation be it grid, honeycomb, whatever). The jet tubes project down from the plenum area and extend either to, or slightly into, the entrance of matching "cups" drilled into the base-plate. By "cup", as opposed to "dimple", I define that as a hole (any shape) that is deeper than it is wide. The Cascade is all about flow management, and it is really the manifold chamber, the cups and the hanging jet tubes that is the defining aspect of the design.

So anything that falls outside of those broad definitions I don't really consider to be a concept copy of either design.



Also, in response to this:


also teh efficiency of water makes teh height unneeded, but these are fundemental principles.


I would put it to you that such "fundamental principles" are only considered fundamental today due to what has taken place over the last 15 months. I remember the trepidation that many treated the WW design with when they first saw it.

Originally posted by drunkenmaster
Also cathar, i got down to where you said the WW had a replaceable jet piece, where they available?

Yes, available upon request. Most people though who had read through the long thread at OCAU which is where the WW was rather openly designed pretty much accepted that the nozzle size that it shipped with was pretty much optimal for their needs. I had a singular request for a 25% narrower nozzle which was supplied.

In any event, this is rather off-topic and should not be discussed here further.

[drunkenmaster]

I'd have to argue(not in a mean way in a nice way ;) ) that yes, your design showed a lot of people what the principles where, and people didn't really understand, or take too much interest in why the central inlet worked well. Yes colder water but overall extremely small diff in temp of water from outside of block in a older crapper design, compared to from a central inlet. One of the reason was the increased pressure of the water coming down on the center, rather than passing over it. I think your design, and ideas are fantastic, and probably pushed these ideas into the mainstream earlier. But i honestly believe that a similar idea would have been the next evolution in waterblocks. I mean, there wasn't many otehr ways to go, center inlet was working well, designers, as you did, realised why, and evolved ideas to increase this pressure, in much teh same way that pressure of mounting has been designed better in teh last few years, heatsinks mounting being more careful, heatspreaders installed on cpu's so that heatsinks can be installed with more pressure to increase the thermal transfer, surely it makes sense to push this idea to the inside of a waterblock and not jsut the outside?

Meh, threads boring without discussing it :p not much else to say bout the DD block till its released and better reviews hit.


Hmm, did micro channels in general make a appearance recently due to manu costs offset by how popular watercooling has become now, and how many will sell.

[drunkenmaster]

Hmm, i can't remember if it was the cascade thread on ocau(that was soo painful to read, soooooo long :p ) that had mentioned direct die cooling, i can't really decide if thats really the next step forward, i think you said a cpu core isn't fully waterproof. Or coulda been someone else. Either way, AFAIK the jet idea wouldn't work on a direct die, cos hot spots could very easily occur(i would think ) which would be very bad. So would jsut a normal pass over block with die exposed actually be better than the cascade block with a lot more pressure and heat spread through the copper. I'm not convinced direct die coolign would be able to beat ya cascade, thats how good it is.

HEHE, cathar, that pic of the 8 or 16 cpu on one die going about, i dare ya to design a cascade for that, with one jet over each core :p

seriously though, as chips get hotter and hotter, and the process shriking should slow down, will design of the cpu become important, will amd and intel try to design a chip that can be cooled more easily? That would be interesting, and maybe not to far off IMHO.

[Craig]

Yeah, some threads get very heated indeed at Pro Cooling.

L. Ninjas is a site I've read before. And yes, it has the feel there of friends meeting for a coffee and to chat.

In the end, perhaps it takes some fire to forge ahead and push the horizon for new gains. Sites that are friendly and without any fire don't have members driving each other to improve themselves or the community.

Sites like Xtreme that has a VERY competative fire amoung it's members pushes the horizons of O/Cing beyond all other O/C sites. No other matches it.

Pro Cooling's also got a fire amoung it's members, they drive each other to create and design. They develop ways to improve and polish both old and new ideas to refine and redefine the cutting edge for water cooling. No other matches it.

Xtreme seems to manage the cutting edge for O/Cing without flaming each other, the ORB supplys part of the fire here.

While that linked thread isn't the first flame fest @ Pro Cooling, it's not the norm of the day on the other hand. I've belonged there as a posting member for well over a year now. That thread is one of a very few that have gotten so hot, I can I'd guess count them on one hand that have happened in the time I've belonged to the Pro Cooling site.

[Craig]

Originally posted by pulverizer
Oh no, I read over there all the time, they do have the most in-depth info about anything related to watercooling. I just don't ever post...

To learn the most, and fastest, you have to be able to ask quesitons. Join the site and ask, most are glad to help.

mdzcpa,

Getting blazed on a first visit is a turn off, no doubt. But there is a great deal that can be learned there.

[Craig]

I agree with the man who said the RBX is a cross between the Cascade and the WW blocks. And as it's made up of differant facets of both those top blocks it's not a surprise is't going to perform pretty well.

I wish one of these two reveiws would have had a WW to compare it to. Pretty clear it's not a match for the Cascade.

Glad to see Player0 is going to try for a better way of flow rate control for next time. It's pretty clear, as he said himself, that it's not possible to get clear & accurate results without knowing you have equal flow for each block. A ball valve alone isn't able to provide for that.

Also glad he included the fact that the RBX doesn't contact the Athlon pads on the CPU properly. That is a error in design that DD needs to address promptly, before a number of people end up with damaged cores.

[Craig]

One gain this very narrow design gets is that air flow in a case would add more in the way of secondary heat dissipation with such a narrow block. Not worth such light contact with the pads on the Athlon though.

As the new Athlon 64, Athlon FX & P4 type designs are the clear way of the future (IHS on the CPU), you have to wonder why they made the blocks so narrow though.

[antipop]

Originally posted by Craig
I agree with the man who said the RBX is a cross between the Cascade and the WW blocks. And as it's made up of differant facets of both those top blocks it's not a surprise is't going to perform pretty well. 10x Craig, i didn't say that against DD. I mean it's known that cathar's block are among the best (if not the best) performers so it's normal to be copied by other companies. It's a proof of the success of cathar's designs

Originally posted by Craig
Sites like Xtreme that has a VERY competative fire amoung it's members pushes the horizons of O/Cing beyond all other O/C sites. No other matches it.
[...]
Xtreme seems to manage the cutting edge for O/Cing without flaming each other, the ORB supplys part of the fire here.


This is why it's the best forum out there, we somtimes come close to flaming but we always manage to chill out :)


Drunken master, IMO the future of cooling is not in wc nor phase change (i'm talking about mainstream cooling). I believe it'll consist into MEM's and nanotechnology that can dissipate the heat right from it's hottest point.

[pulverizer]

I am thinking because of the cost of manufacturing the inside design of the block, they used a smaller piece of copper to start with to cut as much cost as possible, considering it is more expensive than they usually charge. Either that or they just thought that this would look cooler, or maybe they are eventually planning to make a bigger one to cover the whole IHS...

[antipop]

I don't see the point to cover the ihs, as long as it's covering the die it's enough. That's why cathar's block performs as well on intel than on amd cause it's cooling where the hot spot is. There's no need at all to cover the ihs to get the best cooling

[nikhsub1]

Originally posted by antipop
I don't see the point to cover the ihs, as long as it's covering the die it's enough. That's why cathar's block performs as well on intel than on amd cause it's cooling where the hot spot is. There's no need at all to cover the ihs to get the best cooling
Agreed, there is NO point to cover the entire IHS. The caveat however is trying to convince joe sixpack that it makes no difference. Not as easy as you may think.

[Craig]

Nihksub1 & antipop,

Point I'm try'n to make is that this block isn't wide enough to cool those CPU's, not to see them cover waste space.

And I don't think this narrow block will cover those CPU's die area.

[pulverizer]

Barton 101 - square millimeters
Northwood Pentium 4 - 145 square millimeters
Athlon 64 - 192 square millimeter die.

I know the A64 is wider than it is tall though, but still that block might not cover it all, im not sure.

[Craig]

Originally posted by pulverizer
Barton 101 - square millimeters
Northwood Pentium 4 - 145 square millimeters
Athlon 64 - 192 square millimeter die.

I know the A64 is wider than it is tall though, but still that block might not cover it all, im not sure.

My point exactly!

[nikhsub1]

Originally posted by Craig
Nihksub1 & antipop,

Point I'm try'n to make is that this block isn't wide enough to cool those CPU's, not to see them cover waste space.

And I don't think this narrow block will cover those CPU's die area.
You mean that the block would not cover the die of an A64 without the IHS? I think it would cover a bare die A64 just fine, I know it would be fine on a bare die P4. If it doesnt even cover the die of an A64 (not sure of the actual size of the die) then DD is really in for a redo.

[antipop]

I think it'll cover enough of the cpu to work fine (at least the die area)
Anyway once amd moves over 0.09µm the die will shrink back to barton die size

[SupaMan]

one is on its way to my german friend who will review it for our site :)

[Craig]

Yeah when the die shrink hits this block would work for sure.

I still find it hard to believe that it doesn't make better contact with the Athlon pads. It's that making me wonder about if it's wide enough. That is one very narrow block.

I havn't come up with the pic yet, but I was sure I'd seen a pic of a bare 64 here. Tired.

[drunkenmaster]

yeah, need to see a pic of the ath 64 in its slot so we can see if the longer sides will run paralel to the channel in the block, i know that on P4 mounting's on various boards the orientation of the sockets to the retention bracket is always the same. If amd's design, and mobo designers pay attention, and they are all set so the longer sides of core go the right way, then the block i'm sure wil be wide enough, more than.

I'm pretty sure they woulda tested that out, so hopefully they decided to do the sensible thing, if not, well, they can either bring out another block, or i will order a cascade with ath 64 top like i was gonna. Got a DD m4 with ath mounting for now, as i needed to order some other stuff from states, so grabbed one too.

[xgman]

Originally posted by nikhsub1
You mean that the block would not cover the die of an A64 without the IHS? I think it would cover a bare die A64 just fine, I know it would be fine on a bare die P4. If it doesnt even cover the die of an A64 (not sure of the actual size of the die) then DD is really in for a redo.

I have opened up both A64's and FX's and the die will be covered fine. I just asked Jeremy at Danger Den about the undercoverage and he said that based on their testing and taking temp readings on the exposed area of the A64 IHS, it still performed very well. We'll see.

[xgman]

Originally posted by drunkenmaster
yeah, need to see a pic of the ath 64 in its slot so we can see if the longer sides will run paralel to the channel in the block, i know that on P4 mounting's on various boards the orientation of the sockets to the retention bracket is always the same. If amd's design, and mobo designers pay attention, and they are all set so the longer sides of core go the right way, then the block i'm sure wil be wide enough, more than.

I'm pretty sure they woulda tested that out, so hopefully they decided to do the sensible thing, if not, well, they can either bring out another block, or i will order a cascade with ath 64 top like i was gonna. Got a DD m4 with ath mounting for now, as i needed to order some other stuff from states, so grabbed one too.

not in the socket, but:

[xgman]

and one in the socket:

[drunkenmaster]

well from what you say it will be fine, your pics seem to show , assuming the ath 64 mounting woul dhave a pole at either end of the block, then the wider part of the chip wouldn't be paralel to the block, but their may be mounting so it goes the other way, who knows.

We'll see soon enough.

Is the core of a ath 64 supposed to be fine on its own, i know people have taken IHS off, is it fine like that. Ass strong or stronger than the ath xp? if so i'll probo take it off at some point. Thing is, with P4 users some report bigger drops than others when taking it off, which would indicate, and would seem logical that the iHS and the paste spreading won't be indentical with every chip, so you could have a bad covering a lose a few C from it.

[xgman]

I have taken 2 off (both A64 and fx51), and I can tell you that the core is weaker than the XP'sand I have cracked the corners of 2 cpu's under the weight of the blocks. At first I thought I was getting big temp drops, but now I think with the right amount of pressure on the IHS, and a bit of lapping of the IHS - I found it a bit concave, the temps may even be lower than with it off. I no longer think it is worth taking it off. You are almost assured of a cracked corner.

[xgman]

So is there any direct comparison between the Whitewater and the RBX?

[SupaMan]

Originally posted by xgman
So is there any direct comparison between the Whitewater and the RBX?

there will be a cascade vs RBX vs typhoon soon, patience :)

[Cathar]

Originally posted by SupaMan
there will be a cascade vs RBX vs typhoon soon, patience :)

Where's the Cascade coming from?

I only ask because there have been minor improvements from the earlier batches (that Player0 reviewed), and since it's my block being reviewed, I appreciate having some small measure of control over what gets reviewed.

[xgman]

Is the Polarflo FS block in the same league as the rbx, cascade, ww etc?

[nikhsub1]

Originally posted by xgman
Is the Polarflo FS block in the same league as the rbx, cascade, ww etc?
Not even close.

http://thermal-management-testing.com/summar3.gif

[Firelord-OCHW]

Any ideas where from in the UKanybody??

[Marci]

I'll have some RBX blocks in within the next week or two... just waiting for shipment to land from DangerDen...

[Firelord-OCHW]

I had checked over-clock and noticed you hadn't got any :( but if you have yay :D

[drunkenmaster]

they are available from dangerden direct, $24 del £16 or so for a maze 4 with athlon 64 top, a maze 4 gpu block, and a few mounting kits. not half bad and at $40 a block worked out about the same price with the del as from the uk \o/

THey list nothing for ath 64 mounting though, if thats a permanent thing of ath 64 mounting to come i don't know, but ognna e-mail later to ask, unless you know marci, i take it you work at over-clock?