SP94+Tornado+Arctic Sliver5 ... suck!!?

[NesQuiK]

hey i just bought an sp94 ( upgraded version of slk947) , a vantec 80mm tornado fan and arctic silver5 thermal compund.

my cpu is a 2.4c . with stock fan i oced it to 3.2 with 1.6v and was at 42 degree . now with those im at 3.2 (didnt oc yet) and the default voltage (1.520) and 39 degree. .... wow 3 degree less . what is that . i though i could oc like to 3.4 or smthing . or temp in 20-30 . some ppl had 9 degree with slk900+tornado... can u help ?

[saaya]

roomtemp?

[NesQuiK]

26

[NyCUndaGrounD]

You have to let the articsilver settle in first. take temps of it like after a week of intense usage.

[LikwidKool]

my as5 is working real good. better than my as3 and pcm by a few degrees.

[Nookie420]

39 degrees at 3.2Ghz at 26 ambient isnt all that bad but 1.52v is low, i guess u could be gettign kinda high temps. only thing i can think of is the dead spot created from the fan, but i dunno, try reseating the hs on the chip, maybe there is a pocket of air or something.

[eva2000]

your 3C drop was probably due to difference between 1.6v and 1.525v default vcore

[Soulburner]

Originally posted by NesQuiK
hey i just bought an sp94 ( upgraded version of slk947) , a vantec 80mm tornado fan and arctic silver5 thermal compund.

my cpu is a 2.4c . with stock fan i oced it to 3.2 with 1.6v and was at 42 degree . now with those im at 3.2 (didnt oc yet) and the default voltage (1.520) and 39 degree. .... wow 3 degree less . what is that . i though i could oc like to 3.4 or smthing . or temp in 20-30 . some ppl had 9 degree with slk900+tornado... can u help ?
If the ambient temp is 26c then the lowest possible temperature your CPU could run at in ideal conditions in a perfect world with a perfect 100% efficient heatsink/fan is guess what...26c.

But you know what, we don't live in a perfect world and we don't have heatsinks capable of 100% efficiency.

[Liquid3D]

There's NO WAY a 3C drop would occur with that minimal voltage decrease. And considering you have experienced a 3C drop that's still no small improvement at the die! Did you know an overall drop of 10C will effectively double the life of a processor?

Also remember your speaking about a P4 vs an Athlon 3C drop on a P4 translates to a 5C drop on a Athlon. One reason is the IHS. I'm wiiling to bet you "spread" the AS5 which is much less viscuous then it's predecessor. I've spoken with the owner of Arctic Silver at length on this subject, and the best method of application is NOT TO SPREAD the TIM. Spreading incorperates air into the paste, and will drastically effect the TIM's ability to conduct heat. Remeber the whole point of the TIM besides it's innate conductivity, is it's forming an SOLID contact between heatsink and CPU surface.

Those micro-pores in every metal, are air-gaps, and if the point of a TIM is to fill htose gaps as well as conduct, then spreading your paste defeats purpose two. Below is a diagram exemplifying the micro-pores I'm speaking of, and how a TIM fills those gaps (when applied properly). If you read my review on PCM+ vs AS5 at my site ksBrainstorms (http://www.ksbrainstorms.com/ArcticSilver5.htm) you'll see evidence of the difference in performance after I ceased spreading AS5. Instead place just a slightly larger amount then you would normally spread in the center of the IHS or core, and allow the heatsink's natrual pressure (weight/tightening down) to do the compressing. It's difficult to trust this method after years of spreading, but once you do, not only to temps drop, but it becomes much easier to apply pastes. In fact Arctic Silver is working on a product based on this method.

Mentioning Arctic Silver, they have exemplified the difference between a company with inegrity, and a company such as Nanotherm whom took advantage of this often misunderstood subject of TIM's. In fact they (AS) are loosing money to rebuild the dmagae Nanotherm has done; http://www.arcticsilver.com/pcm.htm

[NesQuiK]

so i should add voltage ?

[Poki]

You really should be making the comparison with identical votage and speed after a couple of days.
If i were you i'd have right back up to the same speed and voltage already provided the TIM application was sufficient and contact pressure is good.
That combo isn't really gonna shine until you push it but you should have lower temps all around ;)

[climbski]

You could take the plastic spacer washers out too...

[Liquid3D]

Although I'm going to get scolded for this, my analogy to today's tower case with it's side-panel/window in place: Easy Bake Oven. And fan's usually just turn your Easy Bake oven into and Easy Bake Convection oven. I know people are going to scold me who have spent time and money "properly" venting, and creating airflow, in their Easy Bake ovens (sorry). But there's no amount of "fannage" which will compare to immediately allowing that entire mass of hot air to dissipate into the room, via removing the side panel or "openeing the Oven Door."

And YES you should raise the Vcore a bit, but only after the following;

1st.) In what direction are the "loops" of the heat-pipes pointing? Facing down is second to the heatsink fan facing up. Of course you most likely have a tower case so this is impossible (improbable).

2nd.) I suggest reading this article (http://www.techdot.com/articles.php?action=show&id=24),yopu'll actually thank me someday.

3rd.) In the interim to purchasing an appropriate lapping kit by Easy PCKits (http://www.easypckits.com), try this. Remove the heatsink, and clean the CPU surface with isoprphyl alcohol (I buy the lower ratio 80%, because the distilled water in it, is ideal for "wet" lapping). Purchase the highest grain count assorted pack of Automotive wet-dry sand-paper. Pull a mirror off the wall, or use a pane of glass. Place a 600-count (to sart) wet/dry paper on the mirror anchoring it with your thumb, and forefinger. Then carefully take the CPU, wipe it with the alcohol so it's damp, and gently rub it on the paper in a figure eight pattern. You can also sand in circles, just reverse the direction every few moments. It's important that when you hold the CPU, you either do it carefully by the edges so not to bend the pins. Or you may try what I do, which is to fold the same cloth I used to clean the IHS, dampended with alcohol, and lay it across the pins, and evenly distributing pressure, move the CPU in circles. Just make sure your not bending pins. Remember keep the CPU flat on the paper, and mirror, and keep wiping the excess copper off with the cloth. This will violate your warranty, so be sure you like this CPU.

4th.) Wipe it the IHS surface with isoprphyl alcohol again, it should look similar to the picture below, of course that was done using the EasyPCkit which had very high-grain paper in it. Place a dollup on the center of the CPU's IHS (a drop equal to the total amount you would normally spread) DO NOT SPREAD this dollup of AS5. Center the SP-94 over the CPU, and gently press it onto the four "spacers" or mounting bolts. Then screw down the heatsink, and I don't want to contradict, but i'd leave the plastic washers on there. The bolts automatically tap out, so removing the plastic washer doesn't increase the contact pressure, actually adding spacers would do this. But I don't suggest adding washers. There should be one metal washer, and one plastic washer unde each spring loaded mounting bolt.

The diagram and picture below indicate the best mounting position for your SP-94, and what your CPU should look like after it's lapped.

[drunkenmaster]

hmm, i don't agree at all that a case with side off is better. Sure teh heat can cause convectional movement of hot air away from teh heatsource and allow cooler air to shift into its place, but forcefully propelling hot air directly away much faster and forcefully PUSHING colder air into the cpu area is MUCH more efficient when done right. With some poorly designed cases you get better temps by taking side panel off, some you most certainly do not.

Of course, you will notice somethign very different if you conduct the case side off test with a window open close by, or in a draughty house. But assuming a bedroom or study with relatively static air, a decent case with side on will do better.

[SoulEdge]

I really like AS5. Temps seem to be every bit as good as AS3 with perhaps a marginal improvement. It's very easy to apply, just dab a bit in the middle and drop the HS on and let it spread itself. I noticed this method works very well on cpus (like a palomino I tried) with a square die. On something like a tbred though with a rectangular die, it helps to put a thin line down the length of it so it will spread evenly. The first time i tried just a dab in the middle, about 1/4 of the die on the end remained uncovered when I removed the HS! Fortunately, the cpu is no worse for wear.

[Liquid3D]

I'm sorry you don't agree drukenmaster but I've yet to hear one person, no matter their case type, or ventilation (even with a fan in the side-panle window facing the hardware) expereince anything but lower temps removing that panel. In this case it's a matter of physics or rather conduction, not deduction.

Think more carefully about theese two Law's;
"When there exists a temperature gradient within a body, heat energy will flow from the region of high temperature to the region of low temperature. This phenomenon is known as conduction heat transfer, and is described by Fourier's Law"

And the concept of "insulation",pertaining to the case. Integral ton this issue is equillibrium. That a temperature equillibrium will be reached, and maintianed by virtue of the follwing universal;
"The temperature profile within a body depends upon the rate of its internally-generated heat, its capacity to store some of this heat, and its rate of thermal conduction to its boundaries (where the heat is transfered to the surrounding environment). Mathematically this is stated by the Heat Equation"

[st0nedpenguin]

Looks like it's time for the exception. :D

I can honestly say, hand on my heart, that I see an increase in temps, both CPU and Case temps, with the side panel off.

My case is a Chieftec Dragon full tower, with 4 Panaflo fans in there, two in the front, two in the back along with the PSU, and within a couple of minutes of popping off the side panel, both temps will rise by about 1-2 degrees.

This is with a constant room temperature, measured with a thermal probe, whilst running the same Prime95 test, which with the case closed runs at a constant temperature for both readings.

I honestly haven't got a clue why, but people do tend to say that I'm awkward, maybe my PC is too? :D

[TheDude]

I would say that 9 out of 10 cases will have better temps with the side cover off. That 1 in 10 case with better temps with the cover on is the case that has a perfect balance of airflow. If everything were setup perfectly, I think you would get better temps with the cover on, but very few cases are setup perfectly because there are so many variables and only one of them can be enough to throw it all off. Just my opinion. ;)

[Liquid3D]

Well once again I learn. The day I have people placing their "hands on their hearts" to make they're case (pun intended) is the day I better lighten up. hehe.

Pondering the situiation further, it could certainly be the case (sorry) temps could be better with the side panel on. Lets say the fans are powerful enough and situated so they produca a vaccum effect. Airflow blowing in immediate proximity of components would rapidly diplace heat as it dissipates off surfaces, and carry it out of the case.

Once the side panel is removed, however; that airflow is interrupted, and the "vaccum" efect cancelled out. And if there's a fan mounted in the window, or side panel, which contributed to the efficiency of that airflow. This would further interrupt that environment.

Therefore it's not only possible, but quite probable this can be the case (so sorry). As a simple example of Newtons laws of cooling; placing a floor fan so it blows into an open case and directly onto the components would certainly produce cooler temps by the rule of Forced Convection, whereas simply removing the side panel, (even if there are case fans) by the rule of Free Convection.

[jmke]

I have an Aopen HQ08, 120mm fan at the top, sucking hot air out
120mm in the sidepanel sucking cool air in.
the temps are always better with the case closed & fans on, compared to the temps when the sidepanel is off :)

[Liquid3D]

JMKE have you ever tried taking the temps with the side panel off and the fans on? I hope people aren't misunderstanding me? When i say take the side-panel off, I DON'T mean remove or turn off the fans. Because thinking about it in your case, I'd bet the temps are better with side-panel off, and ALL fans ON.

But we only have your word to go by, thankfully I'd say your a pretty stand-up guy! :)

[Liquid3D]

By the way, one reason I become so adamant about this "side-panel" off thing, is because over the last year has anyyone noticed I've never posted a screenshot were my temps are above 32C? In fact their usually below 20C. I'm not printing these temps to be condescending, or competitive. If I want to compete I'd go back to MTB racing (well given my health Chess league).

My firm belief is were here to share information, to help each other? If it weren't for you guys I wouldn't be wre I'm at today. I only wish I could rmember the first person who told me to remove my case panel. Belive me, I bought a winowed case, does anyone really beleive I want to keep the dam side panel off? If that were the case (sorry) I could have saved $100 I don't have.

Now I know thermistors are inaccurate, but even if their 10C to 15C off that's still 5C under 30C! Here's a screen shot from when I had the SP-94, Vantec Tornado 92mm/119CFM this was a very hot day we had here in September, about 70F (21C) outside;

[eva2000]

21C = hot day :) hehe

wish i had temps that cool... Xmas the year before last hit 39-41C outside and even with portable air con in garage was 33-36C!

[Liquid3D]

OMG I'm being Ethnocentric. No "climatically-centric" Your right though, I contiunally forget my aversion to heat. 70F is perfect for most people, for me it's appraochiong uncomfortable. Actually 70F is wamt for a New England Fall day though..

None-the-less, I find that I've been having a lot of conflcits around this issue, and perhaps it's time I look at myself. I'm not being overly dramatic, because this is what hobbyists do, discuss their hobby. And thermal dynamic's is a integral aspect of PC-enthusiasm. So if I'm projecting my ability to maintain low temps because i have a geographical advantage, and happened to be immune to the cold, that's not really fair to others. I may say this a lot but i did leave Hawaii because it was too dam hot. And most people consider Hawaii paradise? So it's no wonder I tend to rub people the wrong way. Their living in Malasia, or Australia, wre average temps are 90F, I'd literally die in that weather, hehe. And ot be honest I give you a lot of creditm, because it can't be easy to keep a system cool without AC.

[jmke]

Originally posted by Liquid3D
When i say take the side-panel off, I DON'T mean remove or turn off the fans. Because thinking about it in your case, I'd bet the temps are better with side-panel off, and ALL fans ON.


well since the intake is a 120mm fan in the sidepanel pushing cool air onto the CPU , it always gave higher temps when I removed the panel :)

it all depends on the case-layout.

also have an Aopen HQ45, fitted with 2x90mm High performance PAPST fans (they are capable of over 60cfm each) , one in the side panel, one at the top (blowhole). the test setup was an Abit KX7 with XP1700+@2200 , aircooled with an Alpha PAL8045 and a Delta 80mm (5800rpm). When having the system installed OUT of the case I had higher CPU temps then when I installed the system in the Aopen HQ45 with all the sides closed and the fans running :D

[NesQuiK]

well my room temp , is 26 and cou like 39 . u think it can goes in the 20s ??

[jmke]

Originally posted by NesQuiK
u think it can goes in the 20s ??

sure, you can always go below room temperature with aircooling, that is a common fact :bananal:

[st0nedpenguin]

Originally posted by jmke
sure, you can always go below room temperature with aircooling, that is a common fact :bananal:

According to the motherboard sensor, I'm doing just that. :D

24C Case temp
22C CPU temp

At idle obviously, but that's with a clock of 3.3GHz, I haven't got a clue what's going on, the CPU temp rises to 30C under load while the Case temp hits about 28C. :confused:

I can't prove it, no net access from home yet, so you are free to not believe it if you want, to be honest, I probably wouldn't. :D

[Soulburner]

Don't believe the sensors on the board. When mine says im at 26c, im actually at 35c (via a probe on the back of my CPU). By the time it reads 38c im actually at 50c.

And no, you cannot ever go below room temperature with air cooling. If your cooling system, which includes all case fans, your TIM, and HSF, were 100% efficient, then you could cool it to the ambient temperature of your room, never lower. However we don't live in a perfect world, therefore we don't have 100% efficient heatsinks and such.