The Rebirthed Cascade

[[XC] gomeler]

This cascade has had a troubled history. It sat in my garage for 6 months after initially being built, spent another ~5 months at YellowBeard's(Corsair Forum Rep) house in storage as I moved house, and then it spent the last 3 months sitting on my desk taunting me. It was never quite finished, it was about 90% complete before I just started using it.

Now I've decided to start my foray into autocascades and hit a funding wall. Eyeballing my cascade, I decided to make it a little less ghetto, drop in a stronger 2nd stage compressor, drop in another condenser and build a shroud, use a solenoid for the oil separator, and hopefully make it attractive enough to lure in an owner.

To kick things off I stripped it naked, cut up the entire 2nd stage into separate components, and re-plumbed part of the 1st stage. Here's what I've accomplished so far along with a part-list.

Stage 1:
Compressor: Panasonic 2P16C3R126A (http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/appliance/pdf/cat2p16c3r126a-sa.pdf) 15.6cc/rev 10,750 BTU/hr rotary compressor
Condensers: DetroitAC Condensers x 2
Metering device: 2x 8' of 0.031" capillary tubing
HX: Steel brazed 10-plate
Fans: 2x 120mmx120mmx38mm Sunon 25w fans

Stage 2:
Compressor: Panasonic 2P14S3R126B (http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/appliance/pdf/cat2p14s3r126b-1a.pdf) 13.2cc/rev 9,165 BTU/hr rotary compressor
Condenser: Chilly1 Litte Blue
Metering Device: 8.5' of 0.031" capillary tubing
Oil Separator: Temprite 340A unfloated oil separator
Solenoid: Sporlan Normally Closed solenoid with 110vac coil
Suction line: 4' of 3/8" flexible steel hose with braided sleeving.
Evaporator: Chilly1 spiral with scoured internals

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Getting the cascade all nekkid for surgery

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Cascade in the buff, ready to get chopped up

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1st stage testfire with R290. Just testing for functionality.

94374
It is currently mad ghetto but it works.

Tomorrow I'm tuning a single-stage that was delayed due to me getting sick. If I have time I'll assemble the 2nd stage, brazing in the compressor, desuperheater, oil separator, solenoid arrangement, and attach the suction-line. That will then just leave me with attaching the 2nd stage to the 1st stage.

You may note, the condenser was the one I was using for my autocascade. Well, I tracked down a larger condenser for the autocascade and suddenly had a nice condenser sitting around :up:

[runmc]

I'll be curious to see how it does with the i7. Where did you find the better condenser?

I think your cascade will turn out to be a good one.

[sdumper]

Chris, pm me if you need to borrow my torch for any steel brazing I don't mind a bit.

[Gunslinger]

:ROTF: Mad ghetto is good! Keeps it affordable. :clap:

[Moc]

If you would use a pipe bender, you would save money because you can make the pipes short.
Also why do the american builders first start with brazing and THEN bold the components down to a plate? This is not good for the pipe work (stiff).
I made this in the past and learned from my failures. :D

[[XC] gomeler]

If you would use a pipe bender, you would save money because you can make the pipes short.
Also why do the american builders first start with brazing and THEN bold the components down to a plate? This is not good for the pipe work (stiff).
I made this in the past and learned from my failures. :D

I still need to buy a pipe bender but copper piping is cheap for me. I got 50' rolls of 1/4" and 3/8" for under $30/piece :D In this particular instance I haven't adjusted must of the piping from the original cascade, just modified it a bit.


:ROTF: Mad ghetto is good! Keeps it affordable. :clap:

It'll look much nicer when I mount it all and attack it with zip-ties and bolts :up:


Chris, pm me if you need to borrow my torch for any steel brazing I don't mind a bit.

All the difficult brazing is complete, I'm a master with MAPP torches.


I'll be curious to see how it does with the i7. Where did you find the better condenser?

I think your cascade will turn out to be a good one.

The better condenser will be a chilly1 Big Blue :up: This cascade just needs to be average and then be sold to cover parts on the autocascade, anything extra is food on my table :eek:

[[XC] gomeler]

Removed the solenoid I had installed entering the HX, brazed the oil separator back in, connected the oil separator to the desuperheater, and brazed in a new filter/drier for the HX outlet. Later tonight I'll attach the evaporator capillary to the filter/drier, braze the solenoid to the oil-separator oil line, and then braze in the new compressor. I should hopefully start vacuuming down the 2nd stage late tonight :up: She's still quite ugly, will beautify her later this week :yepp:

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[sdumper]

Chris what are you going to mount everything to?

[[XC] gomeler]

A 22" by 22" chunk of 3/4" cutting board unless I can chat up a local sheet metal shop to sell me a decent piece of steel for cheaper.

[sdumper]

Are you going to also build a case around it?

Might help the resale value because a lot of folks get nervous having the beast visible to them :)

[[XC] gomeler]

Are you going to also build a case around it?

Might help the resale value because a lot of folks get nervous having the beast visible to them :)

Nope, no case. If I attempted to build a case it would be shoddy by my standards and I'd be embarrassed to sell it. I'd rather have everything properly mounted and secured to a plate for this build. This is a cheap build, I don't have a $2,000+ budget.

[sdumper]

I can relate my first attempt at building a case is an embarrassment and I have been reluctant to show the finished product.
Im hoping that it will look better after painting.

Back on topic I really look forward to seeing the completed unit and know it will be a beast!!

[teyber]

monster rotaries here, should have some NICE performance :)

[Jor3lBR]

Wanna see the results! :up:

That doesn't need a case just do something like this with wheels:

http://coolerexpress.com.tw/images/ce-100-S-1c-l.jpg

[sdumper]

Wow that is a clean looking build. I dont see any cuts or gaps in the insulation nor any insulation tape wrap.
I am very envious of that work!

[[XC] gomeler]

Wanna see the results! :up:

That doesn't need a case just do something like this with wheels:


Egh, coolerexpress :p: I plan on using casters though, use 5 casters, 4 on the corners and one in the center. Want to have at least two casters with wheel-locks though, so I need to start searching for sufficient casters.

[Yellowbeard]

She's looking good Gom! I need to find out exactly what head I have on this LS-1 I have here and find a proper Nehalem mount for it.

[Gunslinger]

:stick: Any updates?

[[XC] gomeler]

I had a single-stage to fix but I just boxed that baby up and it's going out the door tomorrow. Now I've got a GTX260 55nm and two GTX285 reviews to churn out and then I get to work on the cascade again. I've in my spare time bent the suction-line piping for the 2nd stage and I've got everything set to attach the last pieces, just need 45 minutes to braze it all together and start pumping down. Just a busy college student with too much on his plate :)

[[XC] gomeler]

Just a start. Nothing is insulated and this is just straight propane on the 2nd stage. I was checking the solenoid valve and the compressor, looks like both work :up: Now I'm going to clean up all the piping with sandpaper and start insulating.

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[aenigma]

Ever notice how you can always tell when something is really cold based on what the frost looks like? :)

Can't wait to see more! :up:

[teyber]

haha, as aenigma jokingly said your second stage is currently a liquid propane pump!(sorta) lol

[aenigma]

Yep, that's the first kind of cascade I made. You can get a nice vacuum going that way!

[[XC] gomeler]

The evap was only around -25C as the 1st stage wasn't even running :p: Was running 120psi discharge and a super deep vacuum, this was just a functionality test. I've started insulating the 1st stage so R1150 tonight if I have time.

[tiborrr]

Just out of curiosity as i never tested R290 in 1st & R290 in 2nd. What are the lowest idle temps you can achieve in supervacuum? :P -70°C?

[[XC] gomeler]

No clue, I've never run a cascade with R290 in both stages. I just use R290 to test the system as I can run the 2nd stage without requiring the 1st stage. I'll leave the R290 in the 2nd stage though and see how it'll perform, I imagine I might be able to hit -60C with it as it's more or less a single-stage with immense subcooling.

[aenigma]

gomeler;3661582']The evap was only around -25C as the 1st stage wasn't even running :p: Was running 120psi discharge and a super deep vacuum, this was just a functionality test. I've started insulating the 1st stage so R1150 tonight if I have time.

Hmm really, how could it only be -25C if it was in a deep vacuum? Back when I made a few cascades with propane in both stages my cheap thermometer would always be pegged at -50C/-58F. I am not exactly sure how cold it got, but I think it was somewhere around 20" of vac, and this was testing without a load. Here is a P/T chart to get an idea of the temperature in that kind of vacuum. http://www.glacierbay.com/ptchartpropane.asp

The low compression ratio is what really does it since you can achieve such a strong vacuum. But in order to make it work correctly you have to resize your 2nd stage cap tube, it has to be large I.D. cap tube or a CPEV. I was using some really big cap tube I got from a large window A/C unit, and very little of it. This is why I refer to it as somewhat of a "pump". The 1st stage keeps the 2nd stage so cold your head pressure will only be around 20-35psi or so, probably even less when done right as I never insulating anything well when playing with these, and it was when I was first learning about all of this.

But all in all it's a fun way to play with cascades without getting into the dangerous high pressure gasses. :)

Here is an old P/T chart for propane. http://www.glacierbay.com/ptchartpropane.asp

[[XC] gomeler]

The -25C was a guess, the system hadn't been running long enough to even frost up the suctionline much. Insulating now and praying this looming storm doesn't start throwing lightning bolts.

[sjg0]

gomeler;3662440']The -25C was a guess, the system hadn't been running long enough to even frost up the suctionline much. Insulating now and praying this looming storm doesn't start throwing lightning bolts.

Ground your unit :up:

[aenigma]

Ah, well with that much of a vacuum I am sure it was nice and cold, even if the evap wasn't flooded. Good luck with that lightning storm! :eek::D

[[XC] gomeler]

Rather not risk a surge protector not holding back a surge and blowing any of the electricals. Tornado warning in effect and lightning in the sky :( Oh well, good time as ever to work on non-tuning related stuff.

[Yellowbeard]

Nothing like funnel clouds and 3" hail eh Gom?

[[XC] gomeler]

Are you getting hail out in the sticks? We've just got an immensely large cloud looming from the north and periodic lightening flashing from it. Very little rain and no hail. It is also quite warm, I'm in shorts and a t-shirt working :cool:

[Gunslinger]

Bah, as long as you're not in a trailer park you'll be fine. :caution:

[Ozzfest05]

ahhh good ol' Canada in enjoying my -2C outside and no funnel clouds

[Planet]

ahhhh nice and sunny southern california. What is this rain and hail you speak of?

Just kidding been raining and hailing here for the past 2 weeks.

[Gunslinger]

haha 76 and sunny today, but windy as hell. The storm Gom is getting is going south of me.

[Buckeye]

Man we had big down pours yesterday in the central valley, filled my pool up to the top !

Today nice and sunny, but clouds rolling in again.

The weather forcast tonight... mostly dark with scattered light in the morning :)

[Yellowbeard]

haha 76 and sunny today, but windy as hell. The storm Gom is getting is going south of me.
I would never say this myself but, as a child I was always told that the only good thing to ever come out of Alabama was I-20 :shrug:

Jus kiddin, hope all of us in the areas beseiged by Mother Nature stay safe.

And, Gom, the reported hail was all around us but none here at the house luckily. If we get enough I'll go out and get some and do a quick iced OCing run with it.

[[XC] gomeler]

insulated the first stage last night. Briefly tested the first stage and decided I want to remove one of the filter driers and merge the two condensers into one single filter drier. The system in it's current form requires too much refrigerant to get liquid seals on both capillary tubes. Otherwise I'm satisfied with it. Later today I'm just going to precharge the second stage so I can start testing the insulation and be able to sufficiently load up the HX. This thing dumps a ton of heat from that condenser though, warms up the room nicely :up:

[sdumper]

Chris get your camera out :)
I would really like to see some pictures of how this is turning out :--)

[[XC] gomeler]

It's still too much of a mess. I just drained all the propane out of the two stages and snipped the filters off the 1st stage condensers. Going to braze in a new filter now and insert the two capillary lines into this single filter. This should halve the volume of my liquid-line and help reduce the static and operating pressures.

[Moc]

gomeler;3664421']This should halve the volume of my liquid-line and help reduce the static and operating pressures.
That should not reduce operating pressures.

gomeler;3664005']The system in it's current form requires too much refrigerant to get liquid seals on both capillary tubes.
A captube don't need liquid seal like TEVs do. Quite complicate to explain this so sorry I can't explain it in english.

Why aren't you using a TEV in the first stage? Here in Germany you can buy them for less money (don't know how the prices are in the US) on ebay and they are much better and less work than captubes. :)

[[XC] gomeler]

That should not reduce operating pressures.

A captube don't need liquid seal like TEVs do. Quite complicate to explain this so sorry I can't explain it in english.

Why aren't you using a TEV in the first stage? Here in Germany you can buy them for less money (don't know how the prices are in the US) on ebay and they are much better and less work than captubes. :)

I shouldn't have put operating pressures, but it will help reduce the static. As for TEV versus capillary, this cascade was build roughly 2 years ago and I'm simply chopping a few things, adding a few things, and pushing it out the door to fund a more advanced project.

Regarding the liquid seal bit, there's a certain point where you just don't have enough liquid to feed the capillary correctly. My issue is the bottom row of my condensers are lower than my capillary tube entrance and I'm sure that bottom row is flooded with liquid refrigerant.

[aenigma]

gomeler;3664471']I shouldn't have put operating pressures, but it will help reduce the static. As for TEV versus capillary, this cascade was build roughly 2 years ago and I'm simply chopping a few things, adding a few things, and pushing it out the door to fund a more advanced project.

Regarding the liquid seal bit, there's a certain point where you just don't have enough liquid to feed the capillary correctly. My issue is the bottom row of my condensers are lower than my capillary tube entrance and I'm sure that bottom row is flooded with liquid refrigerant.

If anything it should reduce start-up operating pressures since more refrigerant = more load on system, so when it first starts up and has to condense all that refrigerant you get some nice warm condensers! Without having as much refrigerant it should lower the pressure on startup and of course condenser temperature as well, since the two are related. This brings me to the next point: static pressure. Since you're talking about the first stage, the static pressure won't change since it's only going to be as high as the vapor pressure of the propane at any given temperature, so static pressure isn't anything to worry about in this case.

By the way, why did you chose to go with 2 condensers and 2 cap tubes? Mainly curious about the cap tubes, since you might have gone with 2 small condensers instead of one large one because that's what you had.

[teyber]

any updates?

[[XC] gomeler]

Well, the dual condensers still don't have enough capacity so I'm waiting on a larger condenser. It was supposed to be shipped on Monday, need to contact the guy to figure that out. The problem I have is the 1st stage discharge pressures under load still go up towards 300psi with suction around 10 psi. I'm not happy with such high discharge pressures so I'm dropping in a more appropriately sized condenser with aims of a 200psi to 225psi discharge.

[ruffus]

don't forget if u need it i have a condenser that would put almost anything we use to shame

[aenigma]

gomeler;3693501']Well, the dual condensers still don't have enough capacity so I'm waiting on a larger condenser. It was supposed to be shipped on Monday, need to contact the guy to figure that out. The problem I have is the 1st stage discharge pressures under load still go up towards 300psi with suction around 10 psi. I'm not happy with such high discharge pressures so I'm dropping in a more appropriately sized condenser with aims of a 200psi to 225psi discharge.

Ah, that's strange, seems like they should be able to handle it. Of course if they were in series and with one cap tube it would probably work better.

[[XC] gomeler]

Ah, that's strange, seems like they should be able to handle it. Of course if they were in series and with one cap tube it would probably work better.

Yup, I had considered that but without stacking them vertical and making a tower of condensing power, I'd run into all sorts of liquid trapping problems.

[Moc]

gomeler;3694114']Yup, I had considered that but without stacking them vertical and making a tower of condensing power, I'd run into all sorts of liquid trapping problems.

If you would put them like this in series, there would be no problem.
http://www.abload.de/img/asmal03za.jpg

[Jack]

Mytekcontrols also made vertical HX once, as you can see in his first autocascade. And his comment about the 'pooling' of liquid:



It could if the velocity was very low, or the annular space was large, but in this situation neither is true (it was also much easier to have a vertical orientation due to the size and shape of the space available).

However, you are correct. Ideally it is best to have a horizontal stacking of the heat exchangers, just to insure that there will be no liquid hang-up problems when returning to the compressor.

So I don't think putting 2 condensors in series is going to cause problems.

[[XC] gomeler]

I'm a lazy bastard.

102364

102363

It would be silly to say this thing is even tuned. Powerdraw currently is around 1050 watts and I'm about to strap it to my i5 670 for a little fun. Besides the condenser nothing has really changed on this build. For the next month or so I'll leave it the way it is but after graduation I plan on trying a PID + solenoid evap controller. Now that school stress is easing up I have more time for my hobby :)

Right now I'm waiting on some C14 connectors to finishing up the wiring, a half dozen temp probes for measurements, and the fan that bolts up to the condenser. Fun times on Spring Break for me :(

[sdumper]

It lives :)

[[XC] gomeler]

Apparently the probe was placed in a bad spot. Now it is wedged right against the IHS of the CPU and I'm seeing a steady -96C to -97C while installing Windows XP. So I imagine a evap temp around -100C to -105C. I'm happy for now, let's see how it handles some Clarkdale 2D.

[Yellowbeard]

Nice! Let me know what that 670 does under there. What board or boards are you using?

[[XC] gomeler]

Asus Maximus 3 Extreme right now. I'm just testing Super Pi 32M as I have zero experience w/ Clarkdale and 32M. Works fine at 5.8GHz and 1.65vcore and 1.31vimc with IHS temps around -92C to -90C at the end of the run(~7minutes).

[Yellowbeard]

gomeler;4302411']Asus Maximus 3 Extreme right now. I'm just testing Super Pi 32M as I have zero experience w/ Clarkdale and 32M. Works fine at 5.8GHz and 1.65vcore and 1.31vimc with IHS temps around -92C to -90C at the end of the run(~7minutes).

Mmmm....I'm salivating about putting some GTX1s on that board with you. Also, do you have any SS modules? I have some old ES 1866s, Samsung based stuff we could try on there.

[[XC] gomeler]

Mmmm....I'm salivating about putting some GTX1s on that board with you. Also, do you have any SS modules? I have some old ES 1866s, Samsung based stuff we could try on there.

Nope, nothing single-sided. Don't really need it on cascade as I can't make use of 280MHz baseclock :D This is just testing for a LN2 bath in the near future.

[Yellowbeard]

These ES Sammies are good for 1866+ and are SS. I never tried to push them as 1GB modules were boring at the time. Perhaps we can bathe the modules in your rig sometime soon? I'm still waiting to hear from Brian but GS should be good for a weekday when he comes to pick up his 3 stage from Scott.

[sdumper]

Im hoping he can pick up this Sunday but the r170 is just arriving tomorrow so dont hold me to Sunday just yet :)

[Duh]

gomeler;4300955']I'm a lazy bastard.


Hope you are kiding Chris. How figured out the way out for our board ;)Lot's of enthusiasm and a rebuild that is getting very nice. Keep it up and as I like to say choose your own speed. We can admire the build and love it ( but we are watching TV) and it's you who enjoys in a truly sense while re-building it.
Heads up dude, make it a sexy :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: for us ( with the time frame you choose) :up::up::up::up: