r1150/r14 tev/evap experiment

[bazx]

this experiment is built around cascade 6

which can be found here

http://www.xtremesystems.org/FORUMS/showthread.php?t=184106

Goals: to see if a tes2 can be used to control the temperature of a cpu evaporator using R14 and if so load holding ability



parts:

tes2
chill evap

first gas R1150

http://benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/P1000726.jpg

http://benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/P1000727.jpg

http://benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/P1000729.jpg


first frost r1150

there are many things here i need to understand more

along with load testing but as an experiment its showing some promise



http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/2/P1000726.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/2/P1000736.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/2/P1000737.jpg


readings/pressures to follow

[bazx]

august has kindly re-writen a post in english for me on how to mod a txv for r14

many thanks to him for this mod



http://www.extremecooling.net/index/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?38725.last




OK, for our english friends here an descripton for changing gas in sensor of an TXV:

You need an TXV, it sould have an Outlet to Braze! If possible, use outer pressure compensation.
it`s very easy when the bulb has 2 captubes already, older Danfoss Valves have this.

You have to let out the pressure, after this you braze an Schrader Valve on the Bulb/ Sensor.
That was it Now you can pull vacuum and fill it with the gas you want (as a number, start with 5bar, in my R14 TEV is about 10-13bar )
The difficould thing is the very, very less volume of the bulb. If you take off your filling hose, pressure has gone!
You need a quick coupler like this:
http://kaeltetechnik-shop.at/Schnellkupplung-16C-Imperial

And then it should work!

In lower stages of cascades, note:

I had some problems because TXV was leaking at superheat screw. Never try to move this screw when TXV is cold, and always put on the cap before cool-down. At room temperatur it is normalle leak-free.
An little reciever like an 50g- filter dryer is enough, you save refrigerant (R14 is expensive!)



http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14txvmod/txv.jpg

[quintus]

Between the Bulb/Sensor and Schrader Valve a very restrictiv capilar(0,5mm) and also long enought can be brazed...
So what is the end result that you want here, -130 constant temperature? and at any time of the day you want it?

[bazx]

Between the Bulb/Sensor and Schrader Valve a very restrictiv capilar(0,5mm) and also long enought can be brazed...
So what is the end result that you want here, -130 constant temperature? and at any time of the day you want it?

at this point i am interested in the r14 and will work with this setup

after that i am keen to see how the tes2 copes with the load from a cpu while benching

and of course if -130 is possible or near with this arrangement

[Ozzfest05]

cant wait to see this finished good luck

[tiborrr]

That's very interesting bazx, keep it up! :up:

[[XC] gomeler]

The mod that you performed on the TXV is very interesting. Makes sense, don't know why I didn't think of it earlier. Think I'll have to one day try this will R1150 using a similar TXV. Very interested in seeing your results with R14 though. Hope you can get it working :up:

[Moc]

Hey Bazx!

For better results, you should mount the tev bulb with a clamp. Here a pic with the orginal clamps:
http://www.abload.de/img/moc113vz3s.jpg
This is important, because 50% of heat transfer goes over the clamp.
I also would recommend you insulation around the suctionline/ captubes because the tev needs bubble free refrigerant.
Just want to help you removing error sources.

Good Luck!
Paul

[[XC] gomeler]

What is the material used in the capillary tubing on the TXV? Steel?

[wdrzal]

You also need to insulate over the tvx,only a small portion is in contact with the tube,the rest with much warmer ambiant air.

[n00b 0f l337]

Bazx! Great project!
If you have any questions that I might be able to help with R14, I did have a hard time getting it to work, and have a large log as I tried different approaches.

[before]

Interesting to say the least. :)

[bazx]

i am now waiting for a gas delivery for the r14

should have the gas around thursday for the next step

[bazx]

bit nippy out in the shed tonight but i have had some results with the R14

still early days but i am very happy to have the stuff working at last

next up i will build up the real line set/toms evap and put in a small receiver and load test

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/r14working/P1000741.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/r14working/P1000745.jpg

[n00b 0f l337]

Good to see!

[sacha35]

Outstanding work baz, -127c with a little tuning we will see the full goodness of the R14.

Hats off to you again mate this is truly outstanding work.

[bazx]

thanks paul

tbh adam i was beginning to think i would never see frost from r14

i will need to work on the SH settings some and the bulb pressure and i will break it all down and make up the real line set and start load testing

@ moc you are right mate i will use the metal strap

[Ozzfest05]

Thats cold now lets see some temps under load

[n00b 0f l337]

Should be able to do quite a bit in vacuum with those compressors actually.

[Moc]

But the smallest valve for the Danfoss TEV are 0X = >300W so I guess the valve can not close that much that the compressors run in a vacuum.
@bazx
Will be interesting to see how fast the TEV reacts to load!

[tiborrr]

Looking good bazx, show us some loaded temperatures :up:

Best Regards,
N.

[Duzter]

But the smallest valve for the Danfoss TEV are 0X = >300W so I guess the valve can not close that much that the compressors run in a vacuum.
@bazx
Will be interesting to see how fast the TEV reacts to load!

TXV can go down to 20% of their listed capacity without starting to pendle.

That means that 20% of 300W = 60W. So it should be good enough for you. :)

It probably won't react that quick. After all, they are made for slow decreasing/increasing loads.
Also, when you have a certain load, it needs some time to find the right position to be in.

A thumb of rule: When you make an adjustment on a TXV, you should wait as long as it takes to smoke a cigaret. :p:
So around 5-7 minutes, before reading temps, pressure, SH and so on.

[Moc]

TXV can go down to 20% of their listed capacity without starting to pendle.

That means that 20% of 300W = 60W. So it should be good enough for you. :)

It probably won't react that quick. After all, they are made for slow decreasing/increasing loads.
Also, when you have a certain load, it needs some time to find the right position to be in.

A thumb of rule: When you make an adjustment on a TXV, you should wait as long as it takes to smoke a cigaret. :p:
So around 5-7 minutes, before reading temps, pressure, SH and so on.

Your a very slow smoker :D !
I never heard the 20% theory. Do yo have datasheets or a book where it's written?

[Duzter]

Your a very slow smoker :D !
I never heard the 20% theory. Do yo have datasheets or a book where it's written?

:p:

I'll see what I can find.

[bazx]

@duzter thanks for the info

before breaking the line set down i tested again to make sure it is still working ok and turned in the SH 1/2 to see if i could get the -130 shot

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/r14working/P1000756.jpg

[n00b 0f l337]

What if you remove more pressure from the bulb? (Removing pressure reduces temperature or is it the other way?)

[bazx]

i cannot tell you how happy i am to get this working


(load was provided by AMD Phenom II @ 5000mhz with 1.75 vcore all for cores
running prime) with all 4 core there was a rise in temp 3c where it settled down for the the run

made up a little charging rig for the tev bulb today so i could read the pressures correctly

i started with a static of 7bar @ ambient which was around 4c

but once down to -120 the bulb pressure dropped to 1 bar

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/loadtesting/P1000767.jpg

vacuum stayed around 0 even when under load

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/loadtesting/P1000764.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/loadtesting/P1000766.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/loadtesting/P1000772.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/loadtesting/P1000770.jpg

[bazx]

in the time i had to play tonight i managed to hit 5500mhz

and got a cpuz of 5400mhz

its very early days yet but i should be benching this weekend at last on AMD cpu

http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=504683

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/loadtesting/6.gif

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/r14tev/loadtesting/5.gif

[piotres]

WooT ! Very interesting topic !

[[XC] gomeler]

congrats bazx! I'm glad you finally got it working and adjustable to boot.

[bazx]

thanks lads i have had a lot of enjoyment form this work

i think with a bit more work i could maybe get to -125 loaded

[before]

What are respective pressures of three stages? :)

Excellent work indeed.

[piotres]

Do You have gas recorvery stuff ? I guess with such expensive gas You haven't loose even 5 grams every refill hehe ;).

[runmc]

Amazing work :up: I am very interested.:D

[bazx]

before i will check tomorrow

peter i can get most of the r14 back into the expansion tank also i have taps all over the unit so i can close sections down for maintenance

lik removing the line set

[bazx]

Amazing work :up: I am very interested.:D

ron i was quite shocked how well it worked

very stable

[piotres]

before i will check tomorrow

peter i can get most of the r14 back into the expansion tank also i have taps all over the unit so i can close sections down for maintenance

lik removing the line set


Well taps is for sure good idea in "experimental" unit :). How much R14 you used already ?

Why You choose TXV for a test, not CPEV ?

[bazx]

Well taps is for sure good idea in "experimental" unit :). How much R14 you used already ?

Why You choose TXV for a test, not CPEV ?

with all the experiments i am on the second kilo


i used the tev as i have had only good experience with them also i had one already so there was no cost

[Johnny Bravo]

Baz you are leading the way for innovative cascade cooling - great job mate :)

[teyber]

omg baz, im so happy for you!

is sacha going to go for the same thing?

cheers

[Moc]

CPEV start to leak with those temperatures... also a TEV is selfregulating, the best thing from it :) .
Very good work bazx :) .

[sdumper]

Very nice job!!!

[before]

CPEV start to leak with those temperatures...

No :)

[godmod]

No :)
Not all of them, but it's quite likely :(

[bazx]

thanks lads for the nice words

[before]

Not all of them, but it's quite likely :(

I'm probably happy with mines :) My 3-Stager is built with CPEV only and none of them is leaking.

[godmod]

hey bazx i forgot to say that thats a quite innovative construction there :)

[tiborrr]

Major kudos there, bazx. This is what makes this forums Xtreme! :up:

[G H Z]

Awesome cascade bazx, those loaded temps are crazy. You're getting close to LN2 performance without having to pour constantly :clap:

[piotres]

bit O/T: Well I've used CPEVs more than 5 times and I have never had any leak from it ...but I have only used then in SS .

Baz if You want to try CPEV with R14 I can offer You one for good price (=low price ;) ) .

Regards
Peter

[bazx]

peter it would need to be very cheap this unit is costing me way more then i planed

[bazx]

update and conclusions


although this method works it has been very difficult to keep the evaporator temp consistent whilst holding load just when i think i have it perfect it will act a little different on the next run



if there were no other option available i would use this method however i still have the cpev method to try

i will have a cpev supplied by piotres to try out next week and after seeing before's work on this method i am hoping this will be the one

[teyber]

nice to know if anything else doesn't work you havnt' lost it, you can go back to the txv :)

[before]

update and conclusions


although this method works it has been very difficult to keep the evaporator temp consistent whilst holding load just when i think i have it perfect it will act a little different on the next run



if there were no other option available i would use this method however i still have the cpev method to try

i will have a cpev supplied by piotres to try out next week and after seeing before's work on this method i am hoping this will be the one

I'm sure you'll succeed in doing even better than me dude. :up: I had captube first, then CPEV + captube, and now only CPEV (despite of 3 unrestrictive captubes between HX and CPEV to easily grab R14 into the HX). The pull down speed is just amazing now, and has never been that fast before.

:)