tec cooled loop?

[agentx1]

ok well heres what i'd like to do, i want to chill the coolant in my loop with a tec to get lower temps. the problem is i have never worked with a tec before.

the loop is cooling a q6600 @ 2.7ghz, 9800gtx oc'ed, and the nb, sb, and mosfets of my 680i mobo. i'd like the liquid to be as cold as it can be without causing condensation so a controller device would be nice to control the cooling power of the tec. the reason i would like to use a tec is because i dont have much space for a cascade or other type of system.

[[XC] mysticmerlin]

You would be much much better off to grab a window A/C unit and mod it to a chiller then use tec's. The cost in parts and electricity would be huge to cool a look with that many watts dumped into the loop.
Do a search for post rad chiller I believe it was called if you want to keep this direction.
GL
Scott

Edit: there (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=172946) you go for the linky

[agentx1]

i'm gonna get flamed for this but, i had something more simple in mind i was planning on sandwiching a tec between a cpu water block and 2 heat sinks.
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj77/agentx1/DSC04624.jpg
i dont know wat size tec i should use though as i want the most efficiency plus cooling power. to help prevent loss into the air it would be insulated. essentially wat im going for is something that mimics the boroes 12 from coolit without spending $500 and having to worry about pressure problems running my 3/8" tubing to 1/4" and back again. i would still use rads to maximise performance 2 of these to be exact " http://www.acousticpc.com/black_ice_xtream_II_radiator.html ". i should also say that my temps arent terrible with a 75F ambient the liquid stays below 90 and the cpu doesnt go higher than 115 (hottest core) and gpu gets to 110-120F under load. every other person i talked to said those temps are fine but i want colder. one last thought i saw a self contained chiller it look like a black box but a cant find the thread/forum i saw it in its an older model but if i could find it it might be worth considering.

[zipdogso]

I think I know where your coming from but unfortunately the results of what you propose are unlikely to satisfy you.
The Boreas 12 does cost an arm and leg and it would seem obvious to just use one large TEC and cut the cost dramatically but unfortunately because the way TEC's work this is a massively misguided notion.
Large TEC's consume incredible power for their size. But they only achieve their massive heat pumps at max. power and consume more power than they remove. To get efficiency you use them at a fraction of their power BUT consequently they only pump a fraction of their power. So you have a number of them to collectively achieve the heat pump. That's the reason behind Boreas 12 multiple TEC's. So you see where your idea goes rather askew ?

The only way to make an all TEC chiller is to use this method and once you get all the bits,the extra power supply and everything you spend about the same as the Boreas 12 and frankly assuming your in a country where A/C is relatively cheap a conversion of a window/wall unit to a chiller is the best bet but of course you have the size...

The only way to attempt a reasonably small TEC chiller is to use it as a post rad chiller. The radiater/fan combo removes the majority of the heat leaving the TEC to tackle the remainder but you will find it is still best to spread this over 2-4 TEC's and you will still be spending over $250-$300 by the time you have got all the bits.

Unfortunately TEC's are not the magic wands people take them to be, they are generally very cheap but it all the supplemental stuff you need to make them work properly that's expensive.

Having said that if you do your research, learn how to use them effectively so you can get your system working first time without loads of expensive mistakes they can be very efficient removing more than twice as much heat as the power you put in but don't think it is cheap or particularly small.

If your TEC setup is very cheap and/ or small believe me you will not be happy with it...as in this case.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

that is gurenteed to fail in an epic way, might even include very real flames, it has been tried and treid and tried, just read through the tech forums and see why.

[HDCHOPPER]

ya it allways fun to play bit that isnt gonna work for you for the size of tec you will be limited to in size ...let alone wattage

chech this out : http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/13206 ya it's 24 volt

[agentx1]

well the plan has always been to use the chiller in conjunction with my rads so that the rads, like you said, get rid of most of the heat. the only problem i have with the products from coolit is the barb size being 1/4" like i said. so if i wanted to use say the eliminator i would have to change all the blocks on the tecs. the modding a a/c unit sounds fun but i cant afford one the rip appart or do i have the space.

that chiller in the link would work well? it sounds like it would, 200W capassity and all, and i could afford it. however how, if possible, could i control the thermal output of it i.e. some sort of controller device? one last problem is i dont know how to, or anyone that can braze the fittings one for me, is there a store or body shop that can do this or am i on my own?

[billb]

how, if possible, could i control the thermal output of it i.e. some sort of controller device? Just the dew point detection circuit will cost you more than a window AC.

[zipdogso]

that chiller in the link would work well? it sounds like it would, 200W capassity and all, and i could afford it. however how, if possible, could i control the thermal output of it i.e. some sort of controller device?

Ideally you want a TEC controller...and there lies the problem.
Uncle Jimbo on this forum (TEC section search for PWM TEC controller.) has done a good circuit diagram for one that costs $20-$25 dollars to build but if you have never built a circuit before.... know anyone that could do it for you. One snag is you may have to change the resister values and the thermister so you don't go below ambient - and unfortunately Uncle Jimbo doesn't appear to get much time off work these days ! (Perhaps Glyph could help with this problem.) Only skills required are to be reasonably competant at soldering and able to following the wiring diagram - two basic requirements of ANYBODY that has ANY electronic experience. Please be aware that you will probably have to solder wires of sufficient diameter between all the components to carry the high current.

You could perhaps use a thermostat to turn on/off the power supply for the unit (would be easier to adjust to stay at/above ambient) If you can get one designed for heating/cooling systems (By this I mean Household systems, not aquarium and suchlike.) it should be robust enough to stand the switching for a while.


one last problem is i dont know how to, or anyone that can braze the fittings one for me, is there a store or body shop that can do this or am i on my own?

you could measure the tube and buy the appropriate brass compression fittings from an ironmonger/plumbers shop.
You should be able to get a coupler with the size of that tube on one end and then you should be able to get a female standard fitting on the other end to take the normal water cooling fittings (1/4" BSPP.). If you fit the compression joint properly they are nice and tight.Put the screw sleeve over the tube on the unit, then the joint should come with a "olive" (brass or copper tube.) which you slide over the tube on the unit, ram the lot into the body of the joint as far as it go, hold it steady and turn the screw sleeve hand tight then 1/2 turn (180) with a spanner, any more and you will buckle the olive.

then just get your water cooling fitting from your normal PC supplier for a 1/4" BSPP male fiittng for your tube size.

[HDCHOPPER]

ya you cant beat Uncle Jimbo's & Glyph's post in the TEC section well wourth reading esp, for controllers ;)

ole zipdogso here knows his sh*t also ;)

[agentx1]

well i can solder well enough so thats no problem as for connecting the fittings it sounds fairly easy aswell. the only question that wasnt answered is can that unit handle the heat load (with the rads of course), and how well (understanding you cant know exactly) will it handle the load i.e. will it handle it no problem or will it strugle to keep up.

[geok1ng]

i wont say this approach will be an epic failure, but the results will be far from what you expect: a single TEC operating on a post rad loop, with the hot side on air cooling? you will have to run the TEC at better efficiency points (1/8 to 1/4 of the rated voltage/rated amperage) to achieve mildly to minimal heat removed: best case scenario: spend 20w to remove 30w, and have to dissipate 50w without increasing temps on the cold side...nothing that can reduce 1C from water temps.

[zipdogso]

i wont say this approach will be an epic failure, but the results will be far from what you expect: a single TEC operating on a post rad loop, with the hot side on air cooling? you will have to run the TEC at better efficiency points (1/8 to 1/4 of the rated voltage/rated amperage) to achieve mildly to minimal heat removed: best case scenario: spend 20w to remove 30w, and have to dissipate 50w without increasing temps on the cold side...nothing that can reduce 1C from water temps.

Sorry we have moved on a bit from here he is thinking of buying the industrial 200w TEC water cooling unit.

[zipdogso]

well i can solder well enough so thats no problem as for connecting the fittings it sounds fairly easy aswell.

Yeah, great is quite fun to do and probably highly satisfying when it works I hope your bearing in mind you may have to change the resisters and thermisters to get it too stay at/above ambient - unless of course you just insulate !! There is an interesting thread in the "Dry Ice and Liquid Nitrogen" section about using kneadable erasers to insulate.- finding time to complete my controller is getting to be a complete PITA.

The only question that wasnt answered is can that unit handle the heat load (with the rads of course), and how well (understanding you cant know exactly) will it handle the load i.e. will it handle it no problem or will it strugle to keepup.

What you have to remember is that the unit your thinking of buying is an industrial unit not originally designed for the home market. Companies can buy these units string them together to increase the cooling if necessary,without any hassle.It is a multi-TEC unit that has undergone some design and testing there isn't some guy in aback room making these. I recall there was a thread a couple of months ago about these units can't remember what Uncle Jimbo said about them but they are multiple TEC units and they are pretty beefy TEC's which are undervolted (though admittedly not undervolted to the ideal point.) - But they will "do what it says on the tin."
Put 24v in and you will get 200w cooling.
If you use this unit after the rad in your loop,the rad will handle a part of the heat load and the unit should be able to handle whats left i.e. no more than 200w, ideally if it were mine, I would allow a bit of headroom and go for no more than 150w. I'm entirely sure on the wattage rating of rads - a bit of research wiil be neccessary.
I have just gone back to your original post...wooo you will have a reasonably high heat load there. You mislead me a bit saying 200w would suit you. One rad and one of these might be enough but I wouldn't do it without a bit of headroom. I do believe at least one person on this forum has bought one of these units perhaps you should be the first to consider using 2 of these together !! Not sure about the noise from those fans though.

[memolipd]

check my thread here:

I Did the exact thing (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=201579)

turns out cpu coolers are insufficent unless you get a really low powered TEC at which point it doesnt do anything.

[zipdogso]

turns out cpu coolers are insufficent unless you get a really low powered TEC at which point it doesnt do anything.

Come on memolipd ...your not reading the posts in your thread are you ! If you low power TEC's you don't stick with one... that's the idea of multiple TEC's.

[memolipd]

Come on memolipd ...your not reading the posts in your thread are you ! If you low power TEC's you don't stick with one... that's the idea of multiple TEC's.

ok u busted me, i didnt read the WHOLE thread. It is sooo long tho! my eyes!!

*reading now*

[agentx1]

ok im confident it will work then since i do have two rads ( http://www.acousticpc.com/black_ice_xtream_II_radiator.html ) as mentioned above. and for the final question should i get a psu meant for running tecs or would a regular psu sufice (dont feel like putting out fires lol):smoke:.

Edit: well went to order the unit but it wasnt on the site any longer :(

[zipdogso]

Edit: well went to order the unit but it wasnt on the site any longer :(

Oh well, sorry to hear that, it could of been cool...LOL...no pun intended !

Well unless you want to wait and see if they get anymore in there is the DIY option using a number of high power TEC's run at low power But before you get to buying them you need to consider how your going to mount them to cool the water, this is the point where a lot of ideas stumble. I have started making mine but at the moment I am not saying anything until I have completed it.

final question should i get a psu meant for running tecs or would a regular psu sufice (dont feel like putting out fires lol):smoke:.

A meanwell would of been the best bet - the 24v version.
PC PSU wires are NOT rated for the amperage needed by most TEC's and molex plugs surprisingly are only rated at 7amps.

[HDCHOPPER]

Originally Posted by agentx1
Edit: well went to order the unit but it wasnt on the site any longer

ya eye went thier to order 1 today and zip :mad: thay sold em all !!!
for the bucks thay were the bomb

[agentx1]

i guess i'll be waiting then hope they get some more soon. in the mean time if i took a 650w psu that i have lying around could i do a mod on it and put in heavier gauge wires?

[zipdogso]

i guess i'll be waiting then hope they get some more soon. in the mean time if i took a 650w psu that i have lying around could i do a mod on it and put in heavier gauge wires?

I am not the one to answer this question .... could do with a bit of input from Glyph here - he would probably know. Perhaps if he doesn't pop up in a couple of days you could try to PM him. However some people don't answer PM's.

[Glyph]

i guess i'll be waiting then hope they get some more soon. in the mean time if i took a 650w psu that i have lying around could i do a mod on it and put in heavier gauge wires?

Safest and easiest way to get heavy current out of a single rail PSU is to cut off the connectors and solder together the various wires of a voltage rail. So collect a bunch of the 12 volt wires (the yellow ones) and a bunch of ground wires (the black ones) and solder them together.

the wires are specified at 6-8 amps per wire. lets use 6 as our rule of thumb to be safe. If you want 24 amps capability you'll need 4 pairs of wires. 4 of the 12 volt wires and 4 of the ground wires.

Solder them together to the heavy gauge TEC wire.


An important note is that each wire used must be "rooted" directly into the PSU. You can't use wires that are rooted from other connectors.

[agentx1]

so any four yellow and any four black right it doesnt matter if there going to sata or molex 8 pin mobo etc.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Safest and easiest way to get heavy current out of a single rail PSU is to cut off the connectors and solder together the various wires of a voltage rail. So collect a bunch of the 12 volt wires (the yellow ones) and a bunch of ground wires (the black ones) and solder them together.

the wires are specified at 6-8 amps per wire. lets use 6 as our rule of thumb to be safe. If you want 24 amps capability you'll need 4 pairs of wires. 4 of the 12 volt wires and 4 of the ground wires.

Solder them together to the heavy gauge TEC wire.


An important note is that each wire used must be "rooted" directly into the PSU. You can't use wires that are rooted from other connectors.


that or open it up and solder on some 0/2 guage wire, rated for over 200Amps :)

[Glyph]

that or open it up and solder on some 0/2 guage wire, rated for over 200Amps :)

Not safe.

The line capacitors in the PSU can hold their charge for days. 99.999% of the time, a jolt from that won't kill you, but you don't want to be that 0.001%

cutting the wires from the outside ensures absolute safety.

Anybody that needs to ask how to mod a PSU doesn't have enough experience to do it from the inside safely.

Go from the outside. absolutely safe.

[zipdogso]

An important note is that each wire used must be "rooted" directly into the PSU. You can't use wires that are rooted from other connectors.

so any four yellow and any four black right it doesnt matter if there going to sata or molex 8 pin mobo etc.

yeah it doesn't matter what they have on one end so long as the other is routed directly back into the PSU.

[agentx1]

good i was worried i wouldn't have enough yellow wires lol. so now im just waiting for the cooler and my new psu then i can start on this. thnx for all the help, without you guys this would still be just a dream.

[bldegle2]

Are you still planning on using only one Pelt? I spent many months experimenting with Pelts, finally got a Prometia (still sits in office, now retired and collecting dust).....

If you expect to get good results with only 1 high powered 200 watt Pelt, be prepared to wear ear plugs, the volume of air needed to dissapate the heat is tremendous......the exhausted heat will quickly warm up a cold room in the dead of winter....

Back when I was 'combining' PS's (pretty simple to do) and using one for the Pelt, I had PS failure sooner or later on the one powering the pelt, best to get a Meanwell as mentioned......even after getting a reliable PS, I fought with heat and noise constantly......

Several pelts with a combined 200w total running at lower volts is the answer, much easier to get rid of the heat, much, much easier....Pelts kinda have a point of diminishing returns, trust me when I say they work a lot more efficiently at lower V's......

Give it a whirl, the only way to verify what I said is to run with the one Pelt and report back....

Good Luck....

Laterzzzzz...............