Vacuum pump

[yngndrw]

Hi,

I'm looking for a Vacuum pump but I don't quite know what to go for.

I'm in the UK and hence need a 230V unit.

I guess that I should get a two stage pump to get a better vacuum and have found these two units:
http://www.bes.co.uk/products/083.asp (Scroll down one item)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300251158424

Obviously I'm on a limited budget.
Any suggestions as to which one to get ? (Or another totally different unit ?)

I'd also like to know if it's save to use one of these vacuum pumps to evacuate a system which has had R290 / propane inside of it ?

Thanks.

[PhilippF]

Both pumps are made in China, the second one is a very nasty clone of a refco RL-4 (which is around 500 Euros).

I would not recommend getting one of them. Either buy a real Refco RL-4 or if you are at a tight budget, look out for industial pumps on E*ay. They are not as lightweight but usually make a good vacuum. I got one from BOC Edwards, but look out for pumps from Alcatel, Balzer and Leybold. If you are lucky and take some time you can get an used industrial pump for 200 Euros (new they are in the X000 Euros!).

Only disadvantage is that you will have to get an adapter from (usually) DN40 to SAE which you can make on a lathe or (like me) buy a DN40 cap (made of brass), drill a hole in it and braze a 3/8 or 1/4 SAE in...

Oh, and dont forget to make two oil changes with a used pump at warm condition before using it.

Regards,

Philipp

PS: Found this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/REFCO-REFRIGERATION-AIR-CONDITIONING-VACUUM-PUMP-RL4_W0QQitemZ160273816198QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 60273816198&_trkparms=72%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C24 0%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.de/Drehschiebervakuumpumpe-Vakuumpumpe-Leybold-D3_W0QQitemZ280258270210QQihZ018QQcategoryZ70341QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem <--- Very nice but 3phase/380V...

[wdrzal]

If a Vacuum pump smiled at me,I'd smile back :) and keep on looking......;)

[wdrzal]

Word of caution on buying used vacuum pumps, They wear out. If it looks like it had a hard life,it probably did and I would pass on those. Not too say you can't find a good used pump. Many sit in a corner for years and only collect dust and most brand name refrigeration pumps can be rebuilt,many in the Field. like Robinair & Ritchie yellow jacket,etc,etc

[sjg0]

Word of caution on buying used vacuum pumps, They wear out. If it looks like it had a hard life,it probably did and I would pass on those. Not too say you can't find a good used pump. Many sit in a corner for years and only collect dust and most brand name refrigeration pumps can be rebuilt,many in the Field. like Robinair & Ritchie yellow jacket,etc,etc

If im not mistaken vacuum pumps cant be used to evacuate a system, thats what recovery machines are for.

But can a recovery unit be used as a vacuum pump?

[Xeon th MG Pony]

If im not mistaken vacuum pumps cant be used to evacuate a system, thats what recovery machines are for.

But can a recovery unit be used as a vacuum pump?

Recovery units are used as their name implies, to recover the refrigerant, and no they can not be used as a vacuum pump.

Vacuum pumps are used to lower the pressure to the point water will boil in the pressence of any heat in order to dehydrate your system.

[teyber]

drewskie- vacuuming a system that has had r290 in it will kill vacuum pump oil very fast. i would say its safe to vacuum but you will be amazed at how fast you need to change its oil afterwards

[wdrzal]

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/608/608fact.html#evac

[yngndrw]

Maybe I used the wrong word, "evacuate". All I am interested in at this point is to be able to pull a vacuum to remove water. I guess I could blow some nitrogen through a R290 system before vacuuming it out to protect the vacuum pump oil - Would that help ? I didn't realise R290 would affect the oil.

PhilippF: I didn't even realise that it was a clone, I'm glad I posted this here and asked.
I saw that Refco auction but thought the one I'd linked to was the same - Thought I might as well buy new at that price but seems as they are infact different I may look into getting that auction one.

I'd like to stay away from large industrial units due to the size and weight.

wdrzal: I read from where that link took me to upto "Refrigerant Recovery and Recycling Equipment Certification". I am at this stage only concerned with R290 and I thought that can be released anyway ? (It is just propane, after all.)

Of course, when using proper refrigerants I would use the correct recovery procedure.

Thanks for the help guys, I'll have to see how much that real Refco pump goes for.


For those interested, my first protect idea is a DirectDie R290 CPU cooler to be mounted in the bottom of my V2000. It will have a Plate HX in place of the condenser and will use my existing watercooling (DCC3.2 and PA120.3) to remove the heat. The compressor I have lined up is a nice little 1.5HP Recipricating R600a compressor I bought for £18 (New). It will use a CPEV.

It will go on my E6700 for now.

[PhilippF]

May I give you a word of advice regarding your first project:

1. Dont use the R600a compressor. Its not designed for the pressures used in a decent phase-change setup. Use a Danfoss NL11F, they have proven many times they are a very good bang for the buck (104 Euros).

2. Dont use your existing WC eqipment för cooling a HX and then cooling the refrigerant. Way too much effort.

If I may suggest a very proven combination:

- Danfoss NL11F (104 Euro)

- Cold-Ice Deluxe Condensor (55 Euro) with a decent fan (Skythe Ultra Kaze 2000 for example, Delta AFB1212SH better and cheaper but more noise)

- Desuperheater Coil (about 2-2.5 meters of 6mm copper tubing)

- 210cm 0.8mm Captube

- R404a Refrigerant

Also take care to support the bottom of the V2000 Case. I use a 5mm aluminium plate mounted with 18 M3 screws to the bottom. Otherwise sooner or later the compressor will bend the bottom.

And mount the condensor slightly elevated so the condensor uses the full opening of the case in the front.

Regards,

Philipp

EDIT: If you use R290 instead of 404a, use 240cm 0.8mm captube and you can relax a little on the fan (the Ultra kaze 2000 will be absolutely enough). R290 makes designing the unit easier as it has much lower HPs but it has the disadvantage of being flammable. Take good care you dont have any leaks and MOST IMPORTANT do a really good evac after thorough purging with nitrogen. Worst case scenario is a leak on the LP side, sucking air in when running under 1 bara and creating an explosive mixture inside the compressor...

[yngndrw]

Thanks for your advice.

The reason why I was thinking of using a HX and my watercooling for the condenser is because I already have the radiator mounted - I was going to use it for my graphics card anyway and thought that it isn't much work to plumb it into a HX instead. I also thought it might be quieter due to the larger surface area of the radiator. (And hence the slower Yate Loon fans.)

I have a Danfoss NL8.5 (I think it's that, it's either an 8.5 or 9 - Can't remember.) It's used but works well - I wanted to save that for after my first unit as I'm bound to make mistakes. I could just make a small and simple stand-alone unit to play with - Using the cheap compressor, I may aswell use it.

I was also thinking of using a CPEV so that I didn't have to mess around with cutting cap tube and re-brazing / charging. It would also mean that I can play about with the tuning and learn from experimentation.

What do you think about that ?

I will probably use R290 as I don't have the correct recovery equipment - I think that as long as good leak testing practice is used the flamibility will not be an issue.

Thanks for your input.

[PhilippF]

You will have a lot of trouble and fuddling around with that CPEV. You will have to mount it directly on top of the evap, you will experience problems if you dont have enough subcooling before the valve, you will have to think about how to bring the liquid refrigerant with big enough tubing (that is also flexible enough) up to the evap and so on.

If you want it safe and sound: Use a proven combination. With the components stated above, there will not be any fuddling at all. With R290 and the mentioned components, 240cm 0.8mm Captube will be fine.

Regards,

Philipp

EDIT: Btw, my father always says: Power is Work divided by time, not multiplied by it...

[yngndrw]

Okay that's fair enough - Thanks again for the advice.

Would the cap tube still be the same if I were to use a smaller compressor ?

A Danfoss NL8.5, or even IF I were to use my little 1/5hp R600a compressor ?

[PhilippF]

Then you would have to use a slightly larger captube or live with higher temps. If you use a longer captube you will get less load on your CPU.

Again the advice: Stay with a proven combination.

For a NL11 and 404a, I would use around 240cm 0.8mm captube.

Regards,

Philipp

[yngndrw]

I'll try and stick with the proven parts, but cost is my problem here. We'll see.

Cheers. :)

[yngndrw]

Double post as it's a new day and I'm going back to the thread's topic - Vacuum pumps.

I have found a Vacuum pump. It's a Robinair 15601 (6CFM, 20 micron, 20 months old.) for £180 including postage. What do you think ? It's quite a bit cheaper than a new pump and is much more powerful than the cheaper new pumps. I can also see if they will throw in some vacuum pump oil - Worth it ?

Thanks. :)

[Marvin]

new or used ?
I would not buy used, because of oil problem...

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Ya buy new, I been burned on ordedring used, looked fine and seemed to work fine but got no where near proper vac, opened it up and damned walls badly scorred!

[teyber]

Double post as it's a new day and I'm going back to the thread's topic - Vacuum pumps.

I have found a Vacuum pump. It's a Robinair 15601 (6CFM, 20 micron, 20 months old.) for £180 including postage. What do you think ? It's quite a bit cheaper than a new pump and is much more powerful than the cheaper new pumps. I can also see if they will throw in some vacuum pump oil - Worth it ?

Thanks. :)

sounds like the 15601 which i assume is the 220v of the 15600. not sure on the condition but i have one and so does jinu. i love it:yepp:

[yngndrw]

Sorry about the wait just come back off holiday.

I had already agree'd to it before I went away and saw your comments. I will be getting some new oil with it so there shouldn't be a problem. I'd hope that parts which can wear will be able to be replaced and even then it would cost less than a new pump. The pump is 20 months old by the way. I will be paying by PayPal so if there's a problem I should be able to get it sorted out without too much of an issue. I will be sure to test it fully when I get it however.

Teyber: Yes, it's a 15601. I think you mis-read what I wrote. :P I noticed that you had one after I posted that message.

[yngndrw]

Well I think I've lost £180 on this.

I paid the seller but after sending me the payment request, I've not heard from the seller at all.

I have sent a few emails and messages over Ebay but never got a reply.
After a while I started a PayPal dispute and they contacted him (I presume via Email) and waited for a responce. After a while they sent me the following message:

Dear Andrew Young,

After careful review, we have concluded our investigation of the Buyer
Complaint described below.

We have decided in your favour, however, we were unable to recover any
funds from the seller's account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement,
recovery of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed.

Please know that we will make our best effort to recover the funds in
question if they become available in the seller's account in the future,
and will take appropriate action against the seller. Such action may
include issuing a warning, a temporary restriction, or terminating the
account. Keep in mind that PayPal uses a number of factors, including
member complaints, to determine when to take action. Due to privacy laws,
we cannot discuss the details of any action taken. We hope you understand
our policy and that it reassures you that you are safe using PayPal.
(tl;dr: "We agree with you but we aren't going to do anything.")

I've since sent PayPal a message asking if they can either contact him via a phone number / snail mail or pass on some contact details to me and I'm waiting on a responce from them.

What can I do about this ? (Remember I'm in the UK. My PayPal is linked to a debt card so I can't use ChargeBack.)

For others, while the user has not used his Ebay account recently - Beware of the user: http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/1056clairey/ (clairey71@hotmail.com)
He goes by the name of Antony. (I presume it's his GF/Wife's account.)

Thanks in advance for any help. :(

[teyber]

ugh... that sucks mate :(

paypal owes me a couple grand atm too :(

[yngndrw]

Ouch, that sucks more then. :(

Mind if I ask how you managed to lose that amount of PayPal ? :o Maybe PayPal isn't such a good thing after all. (With your losses, not to mention the problems that Chilly1 got in because of PayPal.)

I've just asked Ebay to close the user's account. I also found another case of this happening with this seller in their feedback - I've contacted that user and asked for their details. (While PayPal will probably not be able to supply them due to the data protection act, I very much doubt a user who has already had problems with them would care about the act.) That should make contact with the seller much easier.

[tiborrr]

Some single-stage vacuum pumps, i bought one aswell, from Germany ~ 107€:

http://shop.ebay.de/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38&_nkw=Vakuum+Pumpe+88L%2Fmin+Klima

P.S.: In my entire eBay career i bought two items from eBay.co.uk. Guess what, i didn't get any of them. There's something deeply wrong with brittish branch of eBay, i tell you that. Maybe it has something to do with de-gradation of genes after couple of hundred years of isolation if you understand me :P

[Lu523]

If I may suggest a very proven combination:

- Danfoss NL11F (104 Euro)

- Cold-Ice Deluxe Condensor (55 Euro) with a decent fan (Skythe Ultra Kaze 2000 for example, Delta AFB1212SH better and cheaper but more noise)

- Desuperheater Coil (about 2-2.5 meters of 6mm copper tubing)

- 210cm 0.8mm Captube

- R404a Refrigerant



Do you have a link for the condesor? I can find most of the other parts local.

[yngndrw]

That's mean, there's nothing wrong with us brits ! (Well not much, anyway.)

I've been told by the other ebay user why didn't get his items that he did get refunded by the seller after a while and that the excuse was they were on holiday. I've asked for some contact details from him. I guess there is hope for a reasonable outcome, but the delay has set back my phase-changing a lot.

I don't want to look for other vacuum pumps yet (As I am still hoping I'll eventually get the one I've bought.) but thanks for the link tiborrr.


Do you have a link for the condesor? I can find most of the other parts local.
http://www.kaeltetechnik-shop.at/Verfluessiger-Deluxe_1


As an aside, does anyone know what output thread the disposable CO2 / Argon regulators from Mig welders have ? They have a little 4mm push-fit connector which I've unscrewed and the thread looked like 1/8" NPT. I asked for a second opinion at BOC and while the guy was not sure on the thread, he was sure it was tapered.

I ordered a 1/4" SAE Flare to 1/8" NPT adaptor but the thread is too big (In diameter, even the smallest part of the taper.) - It only screws in about one turn. On the other hand the thread seems to be the right pitch when compared to the existing push-fit connector. I also have some 1/8" NPT airline fittings which seemed to screw in well (Didn't want to screw them in fully as they have some sealing gunk on the threads which I didn't want to waste.) - The 1/8" NPT threads on the airline fittings seem to be a different diameter to the adaptor for some reason.

Any ideas as to what thread I should be using would be great. I can braze two adaptors together if needed.

Cheers.