Project Frosty Postal

[Postal Dude]

Iv been above ambient for way too long!

Anyone following my rencent threads will be aware i'v been planning a water chiller. So here are the components!

Compressor:
Teco Rotary. 10000BTU 12.2cc 0.9HP

Condenser
10" x 10" x 2" unit that came in ac.

2x 106CFM Papst 240v Fans
(The turbine coolng the condenser is pushing about 500cfm and sounds like a vacuum cleaner running)

Spun Copper filter drier.
6' 0.031" Capillary line (Needs at least 9')
12 Plate Heat exchanger
3/8" Suction line (cap tube coiled round)
R134a
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/7223/lgim0243gl1.th.jpg (http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lgim0243gl1.jpg)

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7697/lgim0239fj4.th.jpg (http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lgim0239fj4.jpg)

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Laing D5
Swiftech Apogee (Release edition)
MCW60
MicroRes.

Lots of vaseline and insulation courtesy of work ;-)


Im missing charging lines. The tubing that will connect to my WC setup. And my suction line. oh and a purging gas. So If ExoCarlos pulls off his chilled water in a day, i'll be paying him a visit for the use of some equipment ;) ;) (ok carl?)

[Postal Dude]

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6482/waterchiller038fb5.th.jpg (http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=waterchiller038fb5.jpg)
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http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/6/waterchiller043pu0.th.jpg (http://img54.imageshack.us/my.php?image=waterchiller043pu0.jpg)


Various pics of system. Neither me nor EvoCarlos had a decent camera that had much juice in it so not many snaps of the actual build.

Used 2m of 0.031"cap tube as advised by another forum member. Turns out this is WAAAAYYY too short. The unit has taken a very high charge and without load it still pulls vacuum. So as soon as i can recover this charge into a tank, i'll put an extra meter on the cap length.

Got the HX down to -35 with straight 134a.

My spare 8.5cc rotary made a good vacuum pump for the system. Everything was brazed and prep'd before any pipes were cut on the system. So almost none, if any moisture was introduced. So vacuuming was pretty much, just for the vacuum.

New filter drier installed too. The old one looked like a strainer, nothing in there to absorb moisture or anything else. The one i fitted is also about 5x bigger :D

The unit is still controlled by the AC controller circuit. Leaving me a minimum temp of 18c (not minus) if i use the temp probe. What iv came up with this morning is... insulate the temp probe and immerse it in the water loop. Depending on the insulation thickness. There will hopefully be a delta between liquid temp and probe temp. So when the probe reads 18c. the liquid will be alot colder, before compressor shuts off. Not sure how viable that is tho as it will also take longer to detect a warm up in liquid temp. Any ideas welcome!

[Postal Dude]

I tore out the jet engine fan and wired up the 2 240v papst fans in parallel. They still need mounting, but the wire lenghts are ok and they fit nicely. I'm going to have to get a shroud for them to fit on the condenser. Just holding the fan flat against it, i get very little flow through the condenser. (Note to all. turn mains off before messing around trying to move fans that are 240v!!!)

Now that all the crap is out of the main chamber, the heat exchanger will be migrated in there too, to make the whole thing alot neater.

Im unsure whether to mount all the pump and stuff of my WC gear in the main chamber too. Or to leave it all in my pc. I'v ordered a pair of 1/2" - 1/2" barbs that i'm going to mount on the side of the case when i get all the innards sorted out. Have hoses from the HX go to these barbs. THen i'll have an inlet and an outlet on the outside of the case, ready to plumb in. A large capacity reservoir will make its way in there in some form or another.

The top of the Chiller is very sturdy and flat. Its been suggested it will make a very nice Mobo mounting tray with some MDF ;)

Some pics of Frost and various system shots

[Postal Dude]

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5929/lgim0245bj1.jpg

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http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/3517/lgim0259yn2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
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[OdinEidolon]

subscribed to this one too!

[DetroitAC]

You've got the wrong refrigerant friend. You have automotive R-134a with oil and leak sealer.

Leak sealer is hilarously bad, it does seal up leaks sometimes, but also seals up all the tiny orifices that allow a system to work. :ROTF:
I'd say warm up your throwing arm and see how far you can chuck it, but it's probably safer to return it, or just leave at the doorstep of the autoparts store if they won't give your money back.

It will also contain automotive PAG oil, where your compressor will likely have POE oil in it. That's just an innocent looking can of trouble you have there!

Good luck with your build, how cold are you trying to go?

[EvoCarlos]

reserved

sorry i miss'd the post spot was building chiller
and its ok with me:)

oh and DetroitAC you are wrong imo
the R134a with oil and seal is the best thing to be buying.
as it has PAG oil in it so is compatable with any other oil so no bother with that
the seal it also a great thing to have in the system as it will prevent any future pinhole leaks and lol block the cap tube hes using 0.031" it will piss thru it! it never blocked my vapo or water chiller and why would they sell it if it was crap.

i think people need to start encoruging people instaed of nay saying
were not all hvac engys but it dont take much to build a working unit

postal just do it you will never no if its going to work if you dont do it :)

[DetroitAC]

I'm not sure I can convince you not to use it, but I can tell you why they sell it. People buy it. That's the only reason to sell anything.

Good Luck, and I'll stop butting into your thread with my nay saying.

[Postal Dude]

Hey detroit. Im going to use this can. Because its what i have. R134a is getting VERY hard to come by in disposable cans as its now illegal to sell in disposable form here.If anything goes crappy or wrong. I'll just have to recover it and recharge with somethin else. Wish me luck!

EDIT:

All things considered. A can of pure 134a is like 12 quid. Compared to this £40 monstrosity. Bye bye halfords rubbish

[Postal Dude]

Ahh that makes more sense. Well the guy who i wanted to buy it off didnt have any left in stock. So maybe he was talking about him not being able to get anymore. I understand there isnt a cap tube in an automotive system as they predominantly use TXVs or CPEV's to control the refrigerant. I may yet invest in some R290 to fill the system as it will yeild better temps and i wont have to phaff around with this automotive crap. I hope it all goes well, but if it dont, then lesson learnt eh. Cant say i wasnt warned!

The system is looking great. This new AC unit has really lent itself to the project. THe stock evap and fan were mounted on a seperate shelf to the rest of the entire unit, so they just pull off (obviously not the evap yet) Leaving a nice big shelf for me to put my parts, and losing about a foot off the overall height. I was expecting the thing to be a total ghetto show. But it might actually turn out rather neat and tidy.
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7929/lgim0222yi5.th.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lgim0222yi5.jpg)
Glad im getting the attention off the UK guys. You guys know how much of a pain it is to get something like this up and running. The way the forums go on, there is a refrigeration shop on every corner in the USA. Where as here google has trouble finding them!

Im going to take a trip up to EvoCarlos' to utilise his gauges and purging gas to get this thing brazed up. Only gotta put in a HX and im pretty much done. Gonne be fun!!!

[DetroitAC]

Hey detroit. Im going to use this can. Because its what i have. R134a is getting VERY hard to come by in disposable cans as its now illegal to sell in disposable form here.If anything goes crappy or wrong. I'll just have to recover it and recharge with somethin else. Wish me luck!

Hey Postal Dude,
I've been an automotive refrigeration engineer for 8 years now, and I still can't figure out how leak sealer is still being sold. Here's the problem...it works by hardening when it reaches the air through a pin hole. So if you try this stuff and have to pull the charge and change anything about your system, like cap tube length...it's now full of hardened leak sealer.

Automotive uses mainly TXVs a device called an orifice tube, and a variation of the orifice tube called a VOV, no CPEV. The problems with sealers happen mostly in protective screens and small control passages in compressors.

Here in the US, some auto A/C shops use a device to detect whether a car has the sealer in it before they will do any work. With sealer the price includes using a filter before the recovery machine, and then all lines must be flushed, condenser must be replaced. Bottom line is maybe $500 extra to fix an A/C problem :shocked:

My advice is to buy a can of pure R-134a on ebay, and seal your leaks with braze alloy :up:

[Postal Dude]

Im not intending to have any leaks to begin with. And thanks for the advice. I might definatly look into gettin some pure 134 from whats been said. Cant be that expensive. Might take that :banana::banana::banana::banana: back to halfords and exchange it for one that aint got sealant in. Im sure they sell little gold canisters that aint got no additives. But i couldnt see any way to hook it up to refrigerant lines

EDIT: Pardon my french

[Xeon th MG Pony]

sorry i miss'd the post spot was building chiller
and its ok with me:)

oh and DetroitAC you are wrong imo
the R134a with oil and seal is the best thing to be buying.
as it has PAG oil in it so is compatable with any other oil so no bother with that
the seal it also a great thing to have in the system as it will prevent any future pinhole leaks and lol block the cap tube hes using 0.031" it will piss thru it! it never blocked my vapo or water chiller and why would they sell it if it was crap.

i think people need to start encoruging people instaed of nay saying
were not all hvac engys but it dont take much to build a working unit

postal just do it you will never no if its going to work if you dont do it :)

lol your telling that to the guy who engineers Auto A/C parts, I can't help but to luagh at that.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Hey detroit. Im going to use this can. Because its what i have. R134a is getting VERY hard to come by in disposable cans as its now illegal to sell in disposable form here.If anything goes crappy or wrong. I'll just have to recover it and recharge with somethin else. Wish me luck!

HA good luck the leak seal will screw up all your recovery gear and plug up your hoses. The stuff is crap seriously don't use it, recover some R-134a from some fridges or some thing but what ever you do don't use the garbage in the can!

Good idea bring it back and see if they have some with no sealent & Remember ebay is our friend!

[Postal Dude]

I have found a can of r134a thats labeled as 'virgin' is this the stuff?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140259559776

[n00b 0f l337]

Should be :)

[Postal Dude]

purrr chased. hope he quick sender. Only cost 10 quid. Paid 40 for the codswollop from halfrauds

[wdrzal]

Pure 134a is usually the cheapest stuff on the shelf......No oil, no dye's , no leak stop......In this case cheap= Just what you need ,pure, cheap refrigerant.....:up:


usually comes in 12 oz cans but seen it in 16 oz cans in the USA.

The can below has a brass piercing valve and a adapter from 1/2" ACME to 1/4" SAE thread

[Postal Dude]

More pics in post 3. Sorry for image quality. Im using a really bad camera phone till i get my replacement this tuesday. then they will get replaced. You got a couple of frost shots. Couple of system shots. And a shot of a frosty accumulator.

[teyber]

hey postal great idea on the fittings for the plate hx :) ive been trying to think of a way to do that (swagging 1/2" pipe) but i don't have 1/2" pipe.. this way is cleaner and cheaper :) nice thinking thanks for postin it :) hope you don't mind if i use it

[EvoCarlos]

hey postal great idea on the fittings for the plate hx :) ive been trying to think of a way to do that (swagging 1/2" pipe) but i don't have 1/2" pipe.. this way is cleaner and cheaper :) nice thinking thanks for postin it :) hope you don't mind if i use it

i was quite suprized when i brazed up the hx i thought i was going to need loads of heat to get the silver solder in ther but it was easyer than copper to copper also a good tip dont touch the hx for at least 10-15mis after its brazed im gona have these hx shaped burns on my finger for ages lol :rofl::ROTF:

[Postal Dude]

Make that about 30-40 mins. That thing sure can hold its heat. And that was outdoors! You carry on teyber. Not like its copyrighted or anythin. Was jus the 1st idea that came to mind. Works well too :D

[Postal Dude]

Go to post 4 for testing pictures people. This thing turns pure anti-freeze to jelly in 10 minutes. My poor bloody D5!!!

[Postal Dude]

Iv googled Denatured alcohol and i cant find it pretty much anywhere in uk that i can get hold of a decent amount for a decent price. In my google search i got Methylated spirits returned in my results. you kno, the purple nice smelling stuff. Is this the same as denatured alcohol or is it completely different? Could this be used as a coolant? Are its Properties similar to DN alcohol?

[Sgrios]

Similar. Denatured alcohol is ethanol. Traditionally, the main additive was 10% methanol, which gave rise to methylated spirits.

A very good read:
http://adunk.ozehosting.com/metho.html

:up:

[EvoCarlos]

Similar. Denatured alcohol is ethanol. Traditionally, the main additive was 10% methanol, which gave rise to methylated spirits.

A very good read:
http://adunk.ozehosting.com/metho.html

:up:

^^ thats great thanks for the link :)

[Postal Dude]

This Thread needs more frost pictures.

This is a testament to the link provided by sgrios. Meths makes a wonderful coolant and stays viscous with this chiller at full pelt with no load. Smells nice too!

We got a Frozen res. A frozen Graphics card (including the golden fingers for PCI-ex slot :S) Lots of frozen tubes and a happy D5 pump with its new life blood :D

I need to buy a roll of armaflex sticky back insulation. One layer is no where near enough!!! Think it will be money well spent.

ENJOY!!!

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/3330/lgim0270yo7.jpg

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[Sgrios]

Just for a clarification, Postal. Are we still talking about methylated spirits or 100% methanol? If it's methanol you don't want to have anything to do with those fumes, even ethanol for that matter, I'd be concerned about long durations of inhalation.

"Methanol is toxic by two mechanisms. Firstly, methanol (whether it enters the body by ingestion, inhalation, or absorption through the skin) can be fatal due to its CNS depressant properties in the same manner as ethanol poisoning."

The frost on those lines look great. Great job with the chiller, looks impressive. :)

[Postal Dude]

Jus looked at the bottle. Its a methanol ethanol mix. 95% ethanol, 5% methanol. And dyed purple and given a stench so you dont drink it. Completely sealed setup so no fumes to cause sickness and no skin contact.

Frost looks good. Was gonna write something in it but by the time i thought about it i'd already scrawled some random lines in it :D

Thanks again for advice on coolant fluid. It works wonders!

[Sgrios]

Okay, that is great. Just letting you know in case.
Looks great Postal, and not a problem.

Cheers

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Oh god you sound like some one cowering in a corner scared of every substance! Really you need several hundred Ml to be any where near fatal!

[Sgrios]

No cowering here. Just stating that Methanol should be handled with some concern. Over 1.5 gallons goes into my Evo 9's reservoir for it's methanol injection system... I have a 15 gallon drum sitting in my basement. :confused:

[[XC] gomeler]

You are an exception.. I don't know many people that use water/alchy injection systems on their cars, otherwise I really don't know a purpose for having methanol in a household. I wouldn't ever suggest using methanol for dry ice due to the vapors but ethanol is just fine. I use Everclear(95% ethanol) when benching dry ice and typically get a slight buzz, nothing lethal ;) Ethanol works great for chilled water and is also great for drinking in measured doses :D

[Sgrios]

Yeah, it's really big in the Forced induction world as of late. Evo guys, Buick Grand Nationals, Mustang world. Turbo blue here in Michigan is 105 octane and Methanol injection bridges that gap for less cost, along with lower inlet temps. I think it's a wonderful thing.

Sorry about Hijacking your thread Postal. I just felt I should address Xeon, turned into another thing. :rolleyes:

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Concerned? No respect it yes but not to the level of fear/concern! ;)

[Postal Dude]

Small update to this project. Got a chilly1 evap to bolt on, some proper sized bolts and a couple of mounting plates. Also got some PVC tubing to go around evap, will be mounting the pipe in a groove in the hold down plate and fill the gaps with insulation. Hopefully this project will finally produce some overclocks and some scores. Plus it will get my system back together and off the top of my wardrobe!

[TheGanG]

Postal Dude, good job!

PS: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=201916 :)

[Sgrios]

Concerned? No respect it yes but not to the level of fear/concern! ;)

You love raining on my parade don't you Xeon? :(. However, I see where you're coming from.

Small update to this project. Got a chilly1 evap to bolt on, some proper sized bolts and a couple of mounting plates. Also got some PVC tubing to go around evap, will be mounting the pipe in a groove in the hold down plate and fill the gaps with insulation. Hopefully this project will finally produce some overclocks and some scores. Plus it will get my system back together and off the top of my wardrobe!

Can't wait to see some more pictures and temps Postal. Keep up the great work.

[Postal Dude]

The GanG: Im all over that thread :D its the next big thing for me to do. I got some grey faber-castell on order. Gotta clear up all that grease! Got some small m4 nuts and nylon washers from work. Gonna route them Through either my swiftech backplate or an old thermaltake backplate. Should hold it in place nicely. Get some good mounting pressure and see my temps stabilise. Gonna be visiting Evocarlos soon to tidy up my unit, reorganise it so its more compact and lightweight. Get the chilly1 on there, regass and get benching!

[TheGanG]

The GanG: Im all over that thread :D its the next big thing for me to do. I got some grey faber-castell on order. Gotta clear up all that grease! Got some small m4 nuts and nylon washers from work. Gonna route them Through either my swiftech backplate or an old thermaltake backplate. Should hold it in place nicely. Get some good mounting pressure and see my temps stabilise. Gonna be visiting Evocarlos soon to tidy up my unit, reorganise it so its more compact and lightweight. Get the chilly1 on there, regass and get benching!

take it easy bro, will be fine, good job...

[Xeon th MG Pony]

gomeler;3281190']You are an exception.. I don't know many people that use water/alchy injection systems on their cars, otherwise I really don't know a purpose for having methanol in a household. I wouldn't ever suggest using methanol for dry ice due to the vapors but ethanol is just fine. I use Everclear(95% ethanol) when benching dry ice and typically get a slight buzz, nothing lethal ;) Ethanol works great for chilled water and is also great for drinking in measured doses :D

I cook with methonol Alchy, I all so use Kerosene (I never liked electric stoves)

[Xeon th MG Pony]

You love raining on my parade don't you Xeon? :(. However, I see where you're coming from.



Can't wait to see some more pictures and temps Postal. Keep up the great work.

Just sharing a good lesson I was fortunate enough to have learnt, when some one is concerned or scared they are dangerous, more prone to mistake, but if you respect it, you have trust which allows you to work fluently with the substance and thus much less likely to make a mistake, and when one does happen you will not panic and you will handle the issue with a clear head.

Never work with some one who is scared of the material they are handling as they are a danger to all around! Learn to respect and trust the chemical be for working with it!

[teyber]

xeon no offense but i usually try to take it to pm after i see a OT coming on...

Postal: did the evaps get there yet? a package i sent with the same service and same time to australia got there last night(in australia)

hope i filled out the customs correctly and hope you don't get taxed.

cheers!

[Postal Dude]

Hey Reed. package arrive this morning. Some nice shiny evaps. All in tact and looing good. Carl's oil sep is bigger than he thought lol. And yeah i think you done a good job. No tax :D w00t. Watch this space

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/2758/image0242vu7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/image0242vu7.jpg/1/w640.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img185/image0242vu7.jpg/1/)

[Xeon th MG Pony]

The lesson is valide for all, so taking it to pm would serve no others now would it?

Evaps look good, you'll be having fun for the next few days!

[teyber]

xeon... maybe a new thread, its kinda becoming a hijack.

Postal glad they came OK :) too bad that one got oxidized :p: I cut you a long peice of the 5/16" as its most likely a rare size for you guys to get and i have a 50' roll of it. you only need ~ 1-1.5" peices for the evap.

cheers