I need help making an informed decision!

[Reznik Akime]

For once, I can't decide weather or not I want an AMD or Nvidia graphics card! Being the NV fan that I have always been for the last five years, I'm really beginning to question weather or not I want to stay this way.

I got a DFI X48 Lanparty Dk TR2D which supports Crossfire. This may be an option I would like to try out sometime. As a result, I have been eyeballing the 4850 series with how nicely priced they are. On the other hand, I was also looking at the 9800 series as a possible purchase as well. I just can't decide which I would like to buy though.

Everything seems to be too neck and neck between the two cards. CUDA was a draw for me on the NV platform, but what I read is that the AMD drivers have been hacked to allow for physics processing. If thats the case, who is to say then other eventual CUDA apps can't be ran on the AMD series?

Regardless, I need help in making a decision. I will -not- go any higher on $250. Not at all, not ever.

I do plan on getting a good cooler for whatever card I purchase. The HR-03 series I adored quite a bit ever since I bought the first gen.

[Heretic]

Unless you want to pay less than 150 or more than 500, there's really no reason to go with Nvidia right now.

[Reznik Akime]

So stick with the 4850? I do like their prices.. But performance too! Blast..

[Reznik Akime]

Also, what of this Hybrid crossfire? Could I get a 4750 to work with a 3xxx series card? Or even with an older 2xxx series?

[omega1alpha]

I tested the 4850 for a few days and it's a great card that's slightly faster than a 9800 in every game except Crysis. It ran slower in that game on my rig. The only thing that I didn't like was the heat generated by that card. It runs super hot and didn't overclock that well ( I tried two separate cards). I would pick the 4850 over the 9800 any day, but would get a better cooler like the Accelero S1 Rev 2. The only way that I could recommend the 9800 is if you can find one much cheaper and then overclock the hell out of it. The G92 overclocks like a champ. However, the 4850 is still the better choice when found at a similar price level.

[jimmyz]

Also, what of this Hybrid crossfire? Could I get a 4750 to work with a 3xxx series card? Or even with an older 2xxx series?

ATI is coding for family compatibility all 4 series work together and all 3 series work together but using different families does not work now and officially it won't be fixed . who is to say someone may fix it but AMD isn't planning on doing it.

[Nasgul]

Stick with what you've had for the five years.

You don't want a card that will have drivers issues, incompatible with some games and suddenly you'd be waiting for a "hot fix" patch....screw that.

You may not see the difference between 5 or 10 frames per second but you'll see when you're able to play the game or not.

Take the 9800GTX and you will not regret it. I've been using nVidia's since the TNT2 M64 (http://www.nvidia.com/page/tnt2.html) and have never had a problem at all.

[Reznik Akime]

Only one for nvidia thus far? Hmm..

[xMrBunglex]

4850 is a better card.

[Yukon Trooper]

4850. All you have to do is go read all the reviews. Proof is in the pudding.

[perkam]

9800GTX+ SLI = $450
HD 4850 CF = $400.

The regular $199 GTX does not compare to the HD 4850.

Perkam

[Nasgul]

Only one for nvidia thus far? Hmm..

Take the 9800GTX.......OC it to 800mhz (from its 675mhz stock) and you'll see that performance wise you won't be loosing any to the 4850.
For 5 frames per second that you'll gain on the 4850 over the GTX, you won't gain "lifetime warranty" and the reliability of nVidia's drivers. The GTX may not be such impressive card but it certainly holds its ground, but OC'd to 800mhz it'd certainly kick ass. And remember, 5 frames per second more? Is that enough to trade reliability and lifetime warranty, and! no waiting on "hot fix" drivers?

Good luck though.


_________________________


PS: Do as Linchpin did and fallow your instincts as well: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=192108.........he got his GTX260.

__________________________

The GTX can easily be OC'd to 800mhz, not so sure about the 4850s but: HD4850 - overclocking issue (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=192821)........kinda pointless to save $50 on a card when you'd be spending $50 or more on a new 3rd party cooler.....beats the purpose of saving ah?

[Big.Wayne]

Take the 9800GTX9800GTX or 9800GTX+ ?

Seems you have missed out on some great Radeon cards Nasgul? :D

Being the NV fan that I have always been for the last five years, I'm really beginning to question weather or not I want to stay this wayIt makes no sense being locked to a particular GPU manufacturer, always always go with the better performing hardware at whatever pricepoint you decide on, whether that be nVidia or ATI :)

Grab either a HD4850 ($199) or HD4870 ($299) and enjoy!

[C'DaleRider]

For 5 frames per second that you'll gain on the 4850 over the GTX, you won't gain "lifetime warranty" and the reliability of nVidia's drivers.





Pure and utter Bull feces. Ever heard of VisionteK? Lifetime warranty. And I didn't know every nVidia card was lifetime warranted......but then again, PNY does list a lifetime warranty for nVidia cards described as "Lifetime is defined as the lifetime of the product on the market." So, if your vaunted 9800GTX is purchased from PNY and discontinued in six months, that was your lifetime....six months. How nVidia subscribes and allows a company to offer "lifetime" warranties with stupid limitations like that is beyond me.

Or MSI's nVidia cards......MSI VGA Products are warranted for 3 year limited warranty (Two (2) years Parts & Labor, and the third Year Parts ONLY, shipping and handling fee will be required). Where's the lifetime warranty there?

True, XFX does offer lifetime warranty on their cards, but only if you remember to register the card online within 30 days of purchase. Forget to do that and your warranty drops to 1 year.

EVGA works the same.......lifetime as long as you register the product within 30 days. Otherwise, 1 year.

So, don't dangle that "lifetime" crap.....I'd much rather have an honest 3-5 year warranty that I don't have to register/jump through hoops to get...just have my receipt and it's warrantied for what's stated.

nVidia reliable drivers? Guess it may be true if you never want Vista or want DirecX 10.1...then again, since nVidia seems to be "squashing" developers from utilizing DX10.1 support, guess that may not be an issue at all.

Then again, what would one expect from someone who never uses ATi products....hard to talk intelligently about drivers if you've never used the product and come only from a fanboi perspective. And guess what, ATi's drivers are no worse or better than nVidia's are.....sometimes better, sometimes slower in some games. It goes back and forth......but neither are vastly superior to one another.

To me, the drawbacks to nVidia products are:

Overpriced, esp. on initial release to market, for performance. One has to only look at what is going on right now.....the 4870 from ATi is 80% or so of the performance of the GTX280 yet costs less than half the price. Crossfire two 4870's and you smash the 280 and still spend less. (We'll not mention that until the 4850/4870 were released, the 9800GTX was being overpriced by a lot.....obvious due to the sudden price drop very recently. Now, if the 9800GTX can be sold at a profit for $200, what was the $260 and more price...gouging?)

To get SLI to work, you are saddled with horrible nVidia chipsets on motherboards. Why anyone would want to endure the second class nVidia motherboards, as compared to the faster and more stable Intel chipsets for use with C2D/C2Q processors is again a mystery unanswered, esp. in light of the performance/value you're getting from the current 4800 series of cards from ATi.



Get the ATi product......you won't be sorry you bought old tech and slower tech.

[Nasgul]

Pure and utter Bull feces. Ever heard of VisionteK? Lifetime warranty. And I didn't know every nVidia card was lifetime warranted......but then again, PNY does list a lifetime warranty for nVidia cards described as "Lifetime is defined as the lifetime of the product on the market." So, if your vaunted 9800GTX is purchased from PNY and discontinued in six months, that was your lifetime....six months. How nVidia subscribes and allows a company to offer "lifetime" warranties with stupid limitations like that is beyond me.Oh yeah......everyone here buys "ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY" PNY cards.......Would the PNY VC owners please stand up? BTW, that's so 80s news.

Or MSI's nVidia cards......MSI VGA Products are warranted for 3 year limited warranty (Two (2) years Parts & Labor, and the third Year Parts ONLY, shipping and handling fee will be required). Where's the lifetime warranty there?Again, who buys MSI nVidia cards?

True, XFX does offer lifetime warranty on their cards, but only if you remember to register the card online within 30 days of purchase. Forget to do that and your warranty drops to 1 year.Takes me about 1 min to register for the lifetime warranty. Not to mention that XFX does offer a DUAL LIFETIME WARRANTY. I'd definitely buy a USED XFX card.

EVGA works the same.......lifetime as long as you register the product within 30 days. Otherwise, 1 year.Everyone registers, we all know that fact already, thanks for reminding everyone about registering before the 30 day period........as I've always done it before the 30 day period.

So, don't dangle that "lifetime" crap.....I'd much rather have an honest 3-5 year warranty that I don't have to register/jump through hoops to get...just have my receipt and it's warrantied for what's stated.Lifetime is not a crap, it's fact offered by those 3 vendors mentioned above, and I'd much rather have a lifetime than 5 years and registering is "jumping hoops"? Oh gosh I never thought that the registering process was such difficult experience/task. Remind us again why most of us are still on a 26K dial up. Those web pages must take about 15 min to reload ah?

nVidia reliable drivers? Guess it may be true if you never want Vista or want DirecX 10.1...then again, since nVidia seems to be "squashing" developers from utilizing DX10.1 support, guess that may not be an issue at all.who needs 10.1? Most of us are still on XP and DX10 works fine.

Then again, what would one expect from someone who never uses ATi products....hard to talk intelligently about drivers if you've never used the product and come only from a fanboi perspective. And guess what, ATi's drivers are no worse or better than nVidia's are.....sometimes better, sometimes slower in some games. It goes back and forth......but neither are vastly superior to one another.Look around, there are several thread already on issues with this HD4 series card: Sudden death, fixing fan, can't overclock, it overheats........same old same old ATI, THAT! is the reason why I can bring myself to buy such poor products. Why would anyone bother to use/buy 'em? beats me but I refuse. Same goes for nFarce chipsets, and "IF" it makes me a fanboi for not buying "poor quality products"? So be it, at least I'm not the one on forums trying to get a fix for my video card. Lurking for that or hot fix drivers isn't exactly my cup of tea.


Overpriced, esp. on initial release to market, for performance.Ever understood of concept of "waiting"? I have, I went from a GeForce 6800 GS to 9800GTX, no reason why buy the latest just to gain 5 frame per second. Funny also because in a year from now the 4850 may only be $100, so why get it now when one can wait a little while?

_______________________________________

The fact still remains, 5 frames per second in some games and currently there are now about 5 thread on: Can't overclock, sudden death, fan fix, overheating..........

Nah.....I've taken my chances with nVidia's GPU and have never encountered any of the issues that ATI had/have/will have.

9800GTX old and slow? old because it wasn't release yesterday? maybe.
Slow? 5 frames per second slower? Now that's laughable.

[Yukon Trooper]

You're starting to look pretty fanboyish, Nasgul. Don't be so butt-hurt about people suggesting the 4850.

[Solus Corvus]

Look around, there are several thread already on issues with this HD4 series card: Sudden death, fixing fan, can't overclock, it overheats...
Sudden death appears to be a 4870 issue, not the 4850 that is being discussed here. Nice try.

When you overclock you typically look for a way to manually adjust the fan speed higher. Are you telling me you don't do that on Nvidia cards? Rubbish.

There aren't many tools (at the moment) for overclocking these new generation of cards, but it's not like the community isn't working to correct that deficiency. :rolleyes:

Overheating? Isn't that a problem with the GTX280s too? :ROTF:

[Nasgul]

You're starting to look pretty fanboyish, Nasgul. Don't be so butt-hurt about people suggesting the 4850.There are Pros and Cons.......but I honestly don't see anything Pro in reference to the 4850.

And again, if choosing to buy such poor product makes one NOT a fanboy? Then why would anyone not be?
How hard is it to understand that by not buying a poor product won't make you a fanboy but rather a responsible buyer? I mean, why in the world is BMW and Honda still making cars when we have Kia's and Hyundai's?
Sure, go ahead and buy the poor product with a long track record of having such issues as the ones that the new cards are plague with. Overheating, can't overclock, no such great advantage compared to an older gen card, and the obvious "hot fix" soon to come........

So, by not choosing such poor product will make me a fanboy? Well, I'm glad I am, that's why I've been using nVidia since TNT2 M64 and guess what? My GeForce 3, GeForce 6800GT, GeForce 6800, GeForce 6600, GeForce 6800GS, GeForce 8800GTX and now the 9800GTX, NONE have had any of the known issues that the competition has had, have and will have. AND I'm running my card at 780mhz (from the 675 stock) and with no mods and stock cooler, it easily does 800mhz.

You can buy a pre-overclock nVidia GeForce 9800GTX, yet you can't find a 4850 pre-overclocked.........I wonder why the "can't overclock" thread is posted here at XS?

__________________________________________________ ____


Sudden death appears to be a 4870 issue, not the 4850 that is being discussed here. Nice try.Do read and the thread before you post non-sence, so for future references, read what post #5 says, better yet, I'll quote it for you, just in case you don't get it:
The only thing that I didn't like was the heat generated by that card. It runs super hot and didn't overclock that well ( I tried two separate cards).
Now, what were you saying about a "nice try"?



When you overclock you typically look for a way to manually adjust the fan speed higher. Are you telling me you don't do that on Nvidia cards? Rubbish.I've never done it and never will, why bother with the extra noise? Runs perfectly fine and able to OC to 800mhz w/o any issues known by the competition in its category.

There aren't many tools (at the moment) for overclocking these new generation of cards, but it's not like the community isn't working to correct that deficiency. :rolleyes:Then you might be slow at getting them because few people have found them already (as the one on post #5) and have not had a great success.

Overheating? Isn't that a problem with the GTX280s too?Remember what you posted? Sudden death appears to be a 4870 issue, not the 4850 that is being discussed here., again, you failed to realized that all along we've been discussing 9800GTX vs 4850, so why bring up what's NOT being discussed?

_______________________________________

But in the end? Nothing wrong in getting a card that it's newer and faster in a few games by a mere 5 frames per second and can't overclock that good and runs very hot, not to mention that there's a "hot fix" coming soon. So, why bother with a BMW? When you can buy a KIA? :ROTF:

So, if you guys are happy that I'd say go ahead and buy the poor product? Why not? Buy it, just remember about the known issues and be prepared for all the thrills.

[Heretic]

I'm not sure why people drink the kool-aid around here. Both companies have had a history of :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty drivers (imagine that, someone whose had problems with BOTH companies), so that point is moot. Even Intel has had, and in some cases still has, :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty drivers. Just because you didn't have a problem doesn't mean other people didn't and vice-versa.

If Reznik had made the thread a few months back, people would be recommending the 8800gt/gts or 9600gt over the ATI cards. (I would STILL recommend these cards if your budget tops out at $150)

[Solus Corvus]

Well, I'm glad I am, that's why I've been using nVidia since TNT2 M64 and guess what?
I have been running Nvidia cards since the original TNT. Does that mean I get an e-cookie?

My GeForce 3, GeForce 6800GT, GeForce 6800, GeForce 6600, GeForce 6800GS, GeForce 8800GTX and now the 9800GTX, NONE have had any of the known issues that the competition has had, have and will have.
Right Nvidia cards haven't had any issues at all. Just ignore the G80 resistors and GT200 overheating, among others. I'm not even going to get into all the older generation issues. :rolleyes:

You can buy a pre-overclock nVidia GeForce 9800GTX, yet you can't find a 4850 pre-overclocked.........I wonder why the "can't overclock" thread is posted here at XS?
Some cards will not be able to overclock very well. That has always been the case from all vendors. You seem to have missed the thread where 4850s are hitting 900Mhz+.

What are the average overclocks going to be for these cards? Well, we don't know yet since there isn't enough sample size to reach any sort of definitive conclusion. But feel free to make a prediction, just don't complain to us later that you don't like the taste of your own shoe.

Do read and the thread before you post non-sence, so for future references, read what post #5 says, better yet, I'll quote it for you, just in case you don't get it:

Now, what were you saying about a "nice try"?
What you don't get is that post number 5 isn't an example of a dead card. Are you having reading comprehension trouble perhaps? In fact you feel free to cite #5 but conveniently ignore his conclusion. :rolleyes:

I've never done it and never will, why bother with the extra noise? Runs perfectly fine and able to OC to 800mhz w/o any issues known by the competition in its category.
So you can overclock to 800 with the fan spinning at stock speeds? That's one point for your card, I guess.

Seriously, who uses stock cooling? :shrug:

Then you might be slow at getting them because few people have found them already (as the one on post #5) and have not had a great success.
You haven't been paying attention, that's clear enough. Right now you can OC through CCC[P] or through a bios flash. Neither one seems to have a negative effect on 4850s. What I mean is that 3rd party software tools are still in development.

Remember what you posted? Sudden death appears to be a 4870 issue, not the 4850 that is being discussed here., again, you failed to realized that all along we've been discussing 9800GTX vs 4850, so why bring up what's NOT being discussed?
Good point. The 4870s are the ones having sudden death issues, so why are you bringing up a flaw in a card that isn't being discussed? :rolleyes:

[Reznik Akime]

How I love starting arguments!

I'm on Vista and feel that even if there isn't this so called use for DX 10.1, I believe in at least building up the groundwork for it. It's the same thing with x64 when that first came out. People claimed there was no use for it and there is no need to upgrade/migrate to on the next upgrade. Look at where we are now just a little while later? Want more than 4 gb of ram? Thought so.

Much to the displeasure of some, I think I will go with the 4850.

One thing I know for sure is a friend of mine's 2900 is still running like a top since the day he go it, and he got it before I acquired my 7900. He games pretty heavily and the card is clocked pretty well.

If I don't like em, I will just go back to Nvidia. No need to make it a bloodbath.

[Solus Corvus]

But I like arguing. :argue:

Sorry to ruin your thread. :(

[Miss Banana]

I think the general consensus is that you can not go wrong with the 4850.

I would wait for a 4850 that has good cooling though, the current cooling is kind of messed up the way I see it. For the current cooling to work well, you need to reseat the heatsink and fix a flaw in some xlm file.

And nasgul, seriously man, your denial is getting a bit sad.
You talk about sudden death, and then when people rightly remind you that this is a 4870 issue, not 4850, your tell them that the 4850 has heat problems too.

You could at least try to to make some sense.

[Reznik Akime]

Ended up going with the 4850. Should be here Wednesday.

[buckshot]

Wise choice! :clap:

[Morais]

Ever heard of VisionteK? Lifetime warranty.

Is this true? Cause I just bought my HIS 4850 by the bundles :(

[Bobly]

To get SLI to work, you are saddled with horrible nVidia chipsets on motherboards. Why anyone would want to endure the second class nVidia motherboards, as compared to the faster and more stable Intel chipsets for use with C2D/C2Q processors is again a mystery unanswered, esp. in light of the performance/value you're getting from the current 4800 series of cards from ATi.

I agree with most of what you're saying except this point. If you were to read reviews of the new 790i MBs you'd find that most reviewers praise them in terms of performance and overclockability :) Anyways just my 2c :P

[Heretic]

Is this true? Cause I just bought my HIS 4850 by the bundles :(

Yes VisionTek has a lifetime warranty. All you need is a copy of your receipt too.

I agree with most of what you're saying except this point. If you were to read reviews of the new 790i MBs you'd find that most reviewers praise them in terms of performance and overclockability :) Anyways just my 2c :P

Nvidia boards have gotten a (well deserved) bad rap because of 680/780/790i issues. Most reviewers don't stick around long enough for issues like data corruption to arise.
http://www.anandtech.com/weblog/showpost.aspx?i=460

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

Yes VisionTek has a lifetime warranty. All you need is a copy of your receipt too.



Nvidia boards have gotten a (well deserved) bad rap because of 680/780/790i issues. Most reviewers don't stick around long enough for issues like data corruption to arise.
http://www.anandtech.com/weblog/showpost.aspx?i=460

680/780/790 all have the same terrible memory controller and all have major memory issues. you can overclock higher on these boards because they have extrmemly loose tolerances built into the bios, ddr2 for instance can run at 1T timing on an nvidia board only because the memory controller is so internally hampered that the latency of 1T acts like 2T on a correct intel board. did i mention that the memory controller likes to die? back when i ran an nvidia board i went you no less than 5 EVGA 680i's of AR and A1 variation, they all fail for the same :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty reason. dead memory controllers.

[Asgard_thor]

im happy with my 8800gtx and dont see upgrading anytime soon expect to a quad..

[Reznik Akime]

Got it, played with it, love it.

Except this little sucker gets hot. Hellishly hot, no less. Next paycheck I know what I'm getting.

[Anemone]

It's a good product. And just happens to be a better deal for the $ than the green side right now. This balance constantly shifts, but you got a good card. :)

[Reznik Akime]

Indeed. And I already figured out the whole fan thing. It's an easy fix.

[Nasgul]

It's a good product. And just happens to be a better deal for the $ than the green side right now. This balance constantly shifts, but you got a good card. :)
Indeed.........$199 for the 9800 GTX vs the $194.99 and the FREE 3rd party cooler that some would like to switch from the stock cooling.

_______________________________________

Reznik Akime, are you getting a Quad Core for your next pay check? You lucky, I want to get one too but I'm waiting for a price drop.

[Anemone]

9800 is now last years product. It may come at a cut rate, it may perform well, but folks who need to go lower end would be better served to wait till derivatives of the 200 or 770 come at the lower price points. That won't take more than a few months I think. The exception would be if you already have a 9800 or some similar and were going to purchase a second to SLI or CF if you have an earlier AMD product. Otherwise stick to the current generation to get the longest use of your $$

[Reznik Akime]

Reznik Akime, are you getting a Quad Core for your next pay check? You lucky, I want to get one too but I'm waiting for a price drop.

Eh? I don't want to ante up the cash for a quad core just yet. I was going to get a better cooler for the 4850, but after applying MX2 and adjusting the fan speed, I'm quite satisfied for the time being. It's no louder than the fans that are blowing on my radiator and in my opinion, they are already quiet enough. Who knows though, I do like that one that AC has out compared to the HR03. I do wonder though if I couldn't use my first gen HR03 on this card. The adhesive on the ramsinks just aren't any good anymore.

I will say that if ATI keeps this up, I will most likely start recommending them. When they further optimize crossfire, I will definitely get another card.

Just give em a try, Nas. I used to be only Nvidia, but here lately they did well in annoying me. I didn't feel as if they were being truthful and really weren't trying to hit up any sort of innovation. Several small revisions of the same core? No thanks. :down:

All I can say for sure however is that you don't need to bash it till you play with it hands on.

[Nasgul]

Just give em a try, Nas. I used to be only Nvidia, but here lately they did well in annoying me. I didn't feel as if they were being truthful and really weren't trying to hit up any sort of innovation. Several small revisions of the same core? No thanks. :down:
Well, you didn't have to get every single GeForce card nVidia release every so often.
Small revisions of the same core? Well, that's exactly what Intel did with the Core 2 Duo, yet people kept buying them because they're fast and great at overclocking. Unlike the competition of course.

So I guess you wanted a brand new spanking new revision and a 30% (minimum?) increase in every new nVidia released product?
I wasn't expecting a miracle with every GeForce card, heck I went from 6800GS to 9800GTX, so it was a huge improvement at half the price of the 8800GTX I bought last year which I was able to sell back for a lost of $60 but at least I got most of my money back and had it for 6 months.

I wouldn't trade up for a GX2 nor GTX260 but I'm also not going to get a 3rd party cooler for my card, and OCs like crazy as it is, from its 675 to 800 core and 2400 mem, I'm very pleased with it.

And no, I doubt that I'll ever buy an ati card, after all the (continuing) nightmares that you have to go through in order to get these cards to its optimal best? No thanks, I'll pass. I'm too busy to be fixing things that didn't need to from the beginning, nVidia does that for me. :up:

Good luck with your card. Hopefully you might not need it. ;)

[Reznik Akime]

But they aren't nightmares? :shrug:

Regardless, this thread has served it's purpose. Please, do allow it to die or a mod to lock it.