Newbie looking for an intro to chilled/refrigerated/whatever water

[karl_eller]

Alrighty, I've got a existing water loop on my main rig (FuZion, MCW60, D5 Vario, MCR320), and it's not performing as well as I had expected, especially for the amount of money put into it (It worked out to be around the AU$500 range). The details of those problems are another story for another time, but I was thinking that if I couldn't get what I wanted from using a standard water loop, why not give it a helping hand?

The obvious problem is that I have pretty much no knowledge when it comes to chilled water setups.

So what would be the easiest way (if there is a way) to modify an existing water loop to give it a bit more kick (or a lot more, depending on how far I want to go)?

I know there are aquarium chillers that can get fish tanks down to some fairly low temps, but would they be able to handle the heat from a Q6600 B3 + Chipset + 8800GTX? And could they be used alongside a traditional radiator if they weren't able to handle the heat by themselves?

Or should I instead be looking more along the lines of some sort of air conditioner-type unit that blows cold air over the radiator?

What kind of heat load are these units going to need to handle?

I know I'm obviously going to need to make this a mostly external setup, which is fine by me (Assuming it isn't going to be too big).

So I guess what I'm asking is:
Is it possible to make a chilled water setup that functions in a fairly similar manner to an external water setup, except instead of just a radiator, there is a dohickie (love my technical terminology :p:) that'll lower water temps even more/dissipate more heat/etc?

Sub-ambient temperatures would be nice, but they aren't a 100% requirement. It'd be fun to play around with a setup that can keep something as warm as a B3 quad below ambient temps, if it doesn't add much more cost to it.

Speaking of cost, how much am I looking at sinking into this, assuming I already have waterblocks, a pump (how cold can a Laing D5 get and still run?) and a radiator (MCR320)?

And assuming I do end up with a sub-ambient setup, how exactly would I do about insulating it from condensation? Is it just a matter of making sure that all the blocks and tubing inside the computer are insulated to prevent condensation forming? Or is there more to it?

I hope my rather long, rambling post will give you a bit of an idea what I'm looking for...

Eller

[Xeon th MG Pony]

5,000 air con with the the evap dumped into a res would do you well, may have to insulate all the lines and sockets since I have no idea what the total wattage is.

[karl_eller]

5,000 air con with the the evap dumped into a res would do you well, may have to insulate all the lines and sockets since I have no idea what the total wattage is.
So a quick wikipedia search and some conversions turns 5,000 BTUs (assuming that means BTU's per Hour) into about 1500 watts cooling, or a roughly 2 horse aircon unit, yes? Although that also gives the obvious question of what does 1500 watts of cooling power actually mean? Assuming say a ~300-400 watt heat output, and probably a ~10-odd litre reservoir (depending on the size of the evaporator), what's a rough approximation of temps? Would I have to worry about the coolant freezing?

And I'm assuming that how you'd actually go about designing the reservoir would depend on the physical layout of the air con?

Also, when it comes to the actual cooling ability, would it basically be constantly sucking that much heat out of the water whenever it's on (ie put the evap in a bucket of water and you'd end up with frozen water very quickly), or would it cool to a certain temperature, and then not cool any further? This is assuming that a thermostat isn't working.

Speaking of thermostats, would it be fairly easy to rig up a temp probe onto say the CPU block so that how hard the air con is working depends on how hot the CPU is? Or would it be better off just dropping the thermostat alltogether?

Eller

[Xeon th MG Pony]

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=173895

[Stigma]

In short, its very possible to put a chiller into an existing waterloop with minimal changes. basically you replace your radiator with your chiller and PRESTO! its done =P

the problems start to show depending on how far you push the temps down.

-Problem #1: When you reach condensation temperature. The condensation temp. depends on your ambient temp and its humidity, but you could say that around 14 celcius would be a common condensation temp. for a normal indoor climate (you can use a online calculator to estimate this more accurately yourself). So, when going below this point you will risk condensation, especially on all metal parts of the loop. Basically this means you either have to stop here, or insulate all metal parts in your loop (which can be quite a hassle). If you go even further down, it will eventually be required to insulate even plastic and rubber parts such as the tubing itself, which means more work. Of course the reward is awesome cooling for your entire systme thats connected to your loop.

Problem #2: When the coolant freezes.... ouch! As you know thats at 0celcius. That dosn't mean you have to stop there, but to keep it liquid you have to add other liquids, like methanol to lower the freezing point. The lower you wanna go, the higher the ratio. The two main problems this brings is:
- Most plastic pumps can't handle extreme cold temps and may fail or even crack. Solution: get a mag-pump like Iwaki brand. They are more expensive of course, but they rock!
- Most anti-freezing agent and alcohols you use to lower the freezing temp. will tend to make rubber seals like gaskets brittle and hard over time. This might lead to leaks eventually if your system uses such gaskets to remain water-tight. The solution is of course to not use any connections with rubber gaskets. Its a hassle, but if you are going to these exteme lenghts allready, then its probably something you can handle anyway ;)

Best of luck to you.

PS: one last thing: if you decide to stay above the "problem-zone" in regards to temps, keep in mind that it is vital to have some sort of control-system for your chiller to let you regulate the temperature. Otherwise the coolant temp will fluctuate a lot depending on whether the system is at max load or at idle, and you could risk dipping down into condensation-temperatures if you get too much cooling and the chiller isn't able to regulate this somehow. So, remember to ask about this if you get someone to build one for you.

-Stigma

[coo-coo-clocker]

great info!! :up:

[ymer]

What about a car gasoline pump? those things are made to last and should not crack with alcohol or other types of liquids and are alot cheaper than the ones for WC setups?

[a4htec]

I am trying to achieve pretty much exactly what u are trying to accomplish. And this is what I'm about to try and do. I will post some pictures and results once I have everything and all setup.

Alrighty, I've got a existing water loop on my main rig (FuZion, MCW60, D5 Vario, MCR320), and it's not performing as well as I had expected, especially for the amount of money put into it (It worked out to be around the AU$500 range). The details of those problems are another story for another time, but I was thinking that if I couldn't get what I wanted from using a standard water loop, why not give it a helping hand?

The obvious problem is that I have pretty much no knowledge when it comes to chilled water setups.

So what would be the easiest way (if there is a way) to modify an existing water loop to give it a bit more kick (or a lot more, depending on how far I want to go)?

I know there are aquarium chillers that can get fish tanks down to some fairly low temps, but would they be able to handle the heat from a Q6600 B3 + Chipset + 8800GTX? And could they be used alongside a traditional radiator if they weren't able to handle the heat by themselves?

Or should I instead be looking more along the lines of some sort of air conditioner-type unit that blows cold air over the radiator?

What kind of heat load are these units going to need to handle?

I know I'm obviously going to need to make this a mostly external setup, which is fine by me (Assuming it isn't going to be too big).

So I guess what I'm asking is:
Is it possible to make a chilled water setup that functions in a fairly similar manner to an external water setup, except instead of just a radiator, there is a dohickie (love my technical terminology :p:) that'll lower water temps even more/dissipate more heat/etc?

Sub-ambient temperatures would be nice, but they aren't a 100% requirement. It'd be fun to play around with a setup that can keep something as warm as a B3 quad below ambient temps, if it doesn't add much more cost to it.

Speaking of cost, how much am I looking at sinking into this, assuming I already have waterblocks, a pump (how cold can a Laing D5 get and still run?) and a radiator (MCR320)?

And assuming I do end up with a sub-ambient setup, how exactly would I do about insulating it from condensation? Is it just a matter of making sure that all the blocks and tubing inside the computer are insulated to prevent condensation forming? Or is there more to it?

I hope my rather long, rambling post will give you a bit of an idea what I'm looking for...

Eller

[adpr_02]

I am trying to achieve pretty much exactly what u are trying to accomplish. And this is what I'm about to try and do. I will post some pictures and results once I have everything and all setup.

My god, that is amazing. I never thought of that, and now am seriously considering it! But I suggest that you put your radiator before your Cold cpu block. That way you take most of teh heat away with the ambient air, and then for extra cooling, the cold cpu block kicks in.

Wow, now I might not sell my Apogee GT, and instead buy a new one :up:.

Think there is a way to shave off JUST 20C in idle and load off of a Q6600? It shouldn't be too hard...

[Jim Morbid]

Nice idea a4h.

JM

[Puttz]

Got me thinking now too....:up:

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I am trying to achieve pretty much exactly what u are trying to accomplish. And this is what I'm about to try and do. I will post some pictures and results once I have everything and all setup.

my god thats horribl!

Why not just cool the hot side with the cool side? thats basicly what your doing! your burning allot of energy to accomplish nothing, by adding in the secondary rad you are introducing far more heat then you'd be rejecting thus saturating and nutrilising any advantage the pelt will yeild. I'm to tired to list all the things wrong in that idea but needles to say there is allot!

Do some more reading all the info is around the site here.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

All so by keeping the water in the secondary loop you have further heat gain via Pump, Tubes, and surounding air, then cleary you dump un holy amounds of that un-wanted heat directly into the cooling system from the rad!

Pelts simply are not worth while for that type of system. Cool the chip directly with the pelt (Less insulation and far less heat ingress) then cool the hot side of the pelt with the main cooling system (Far more heat rejection through the tubes negating the need for insulation and thus better efficiency all around)

[Puttz]

my god thats horribl!


Would this not do the intented? http://www.bcchardware.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=61&topic=2078.0 (Boreas MTEC)

I too am leary of TEC, but if the condensation/temp can be controled, would this not benifit these hot Quads.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

that may or may not work, still poorest way to go, if using tech about the only way to get any usable power efficiency from them is use them direct on chip

[Puttz]

What if I only wish to maintain 20C?

I am not looking to go to the point of having to insulated everything.

Was also thinking if the TEC was to die, I could still rely on the water system (system throttled back) until repairs could be made.

Biggest con - I guess from the reviews, it's like a jet taking off - in the noise department.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Then I'd think more of using a small vapour compression chiller, as techs are terribly inefficient, but yes, it would be good for high temp loop, How ever due to the slow cooling effect pelts would have in that configuration I'd highly recommend insulating the tubing for best performance, and most certainly no rad on the cold side of the loop! Use that second rad on the hot side where it will yield the most gain.

[Puttz]

[QUOTE=Xeon th MG Pony;3166019]Then I'd think more of using a small vapour compression chillerQUOTE]

Thanks

[Xeon th MG Pony]

No problem, Per watt of electricity a vapour compression cycle will give you far more cooling effect then a pelt