Why Vista sounds worse.

[Donnie27]

I've not yet moved to Vista yet because others I know who use their computers similar to the way I do, complain about it. I've have buddies swear glitches seem to appear out of nowhere to just mess up a recording. Even simple voice like recording a speech.

I still will install Vista but will Dual boot it and stick with XP for Music and Sound in general.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/jan/31/microsoft.technology



Why Vista sounds worse.
Snip
Noel Borthwick, chief technology officer for Cakewalk, which creates music software for both the consumer and professional markets, recalls his company's first involvement with Vista - in 2003. "Microsoft had a Vista audio summit - it was called Longhorn at the time - and invited several vendors for private meetings to put forward the specification for audio in Vista and try and collect feedback."

Fundamental changes were on the way: many of Cakewalk's products used a programming interface called DirectSound, which was being phased out. "We went back and re-invented all the stuff that we did in our applications," Borthwick says.

In 2005 there was another conference. "Microsoft presented Vista as it was going to be released. We found some fundamental flaws. WaveRT [see panel] is a new mechanism by which audio drivers would perform really well. There were a couple of flaws in the design. We pointed out the flaws before Vista shipped."

So the folks talking about all the time Cake Walk, Creative Labs and others had are Full Of $#it!



DRM: Digital Rights Management - Under Vista, protection of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DVD content. Reportedly WaveRT and UAA are subject to DRM polling and can ratchet back the bitrate on your soundcard without your foreknowledge.


Anyone else seen this? I have:down:

[zanzabar]

i havnt heard a down mix on any of my music or media, i had a hard time finding proper drivers but then the custom creative ones came out and fixed all of my problems

the main problem with vista is that u need an asio card with open al and most cards dont support asio and open al since windows users didnt use asio and open al wasnt vary usable with onboard (and creative dropping proper asio support on the xfi didnt help)

[daftDavid]

I thought it was because Microsoft simply scrapped the HAL that the old sound cards used. Maybe that was DirectSound, but my Sound Blaster Live! 5.1 sounded horrible under Vista but great under XP.

[Donnie27]

i havnt heard a down mix on any of my music or media, i had a hard time finding proper drivers but then the custom creative ones came out and fixed all of my problems

the main problem with vista is that u need an asio card with open al and most cards dont support asio and open al since windows users didnt use asio and open al wasnt vary usable with onboard (and creative dropping proper asio support on the xfi didnt help)

I know a guy who made a 24bit recording, when we checked the file it said 16bit.

I still have ASIO with XP and when I finally do install Vista, I will most certainly Dual Boot.

ATI's drivers removed my ASIO in XP, I reinstalled it. Again, DRM at it again because I found that every time ATI installed HDMI and HDCP support, it killed my ASIO drivers. Now if Creative killed them, it seems funny that a reinstall adds them back. This is funny as hell since ATI doesn't have HDMI on their card:rolleyes:

[Donnie27]

I thought it was because Microsoft simply scrapped the HAL that the old sound cards used. Maybe that was DirectSound, but my Sound Blaster Live! 5.1 sounded horrible under Vista but great under XP.

Find a cheap Audigy 2, you'll be even happier:D I gave way 2 SBLives. Not to belittle you or anyone else buy why spend so little on your sound?

[cadaveca]

I ahve no issues with vista's sound stack, and with the right software, 24-bit 192khz is rendered at just that...but I'm not using analogue out...and if you are professionally recording audio, then you never use anything other than ASIO(ASIO is a low latency (sometimes less than 2ms)protocol for MIDI devices, BTW).

Sutff like this matters...and pro keyboard player can tell you that latency is more than 10ms, most prefer 6ms or less.

Everything you've described is software/driver issues tho, not Vista issues. I've got guys recording on 100k audio equipment in vista, haven't heard any complaints yet!

[zanzabar]

vista is also nice for th 64-bit support MS makes people put out 32 and 64 bit drivers so its helping to push 64bit

[Donnie27]

I ahve no issues with vista's sound stack, and with the right software, 24-bit 192khz is rendered at just that...but I'm not using analogue out...and if you are professionally recording audio, then you never use anything other than ASIO(ASIO is a low latency (sometimes less than 2ms)protocol for MIDI devices, BTW).

Sutff like this matters...and pro keyboard player can tell you that latency is more than 10ms, most prefer 6ms or less.

Everything you've described is software/driver issues tho, not Vista issues. I've got guys recording on 100k audio equipment in vista, haven't heard any complaints yet!

I'll have to agree to a point, yes the right software and knowing how to force ASIO.

Some like it and others don't, nothing is absolute. Again, he is talking about Analog and similar to "What you Hear". That's where I heard a drop-outs and what sounded like watermarks". I've gotten very good Analog recordings from my Reel to Reel using Audacity. No, I don't have a digital mixer or etc..., just an Auzen Prelude 7.1:) That's why even after I install Vista to make full use of my 4GB of RAM and Dump PAE, it will be Dual Booted.

Now for the other issues, please direct them at the source, Cakewalk:)?

[cadaveca]

Lol..cakewalk is a joke. pros use protools, logic, reason...almost never cakewalk, and for good reason. You must always consider the source of info. Cakewalk makes crap. TBH, i'm curious as to how you'd need ASIO, without a single midi device.

[Donnie27]

Lol..cakewalk is a joke. pros use protools, logic, reason...almost never cakewalk, and for good reason. You must always consider the source of info. Cakewalk makes crap. TBH, i'm curious as to how you'd need ASIO, without a single midi device.

Sure, he said:) I said I used Analog for personal recordings, nothing professional. Nothing like Pro-Tools or etc............... I use ASIO for 24bit-96KHz Analog recordings with what many call un-needed Bloatware, Creative's Music Creation Model in its ASIO section. Monitor, Make adjustments while records ease it and start again when I get it right. These can then be cleaned up, those recorded in 24bit 96KHz can be compressed/converted and etc.. Nothing Pro for sure but nice enough for most folks.

[Jowy Atreides]

vista works fine for me using cubase or reaper in my mixes

[Donnie27]

vista works fine for me using cubase or reaper in my mixes

Good to know, just as with the other guy. When I do move to Vista, might need some pointers from you guys.

[ROBSCIX]

Vista runs fine with my audio recording applications.

[cadaveca]

I think alot of users really having problems with Vista and WaveRT don't have a midi controller installed, so have never installed an ASIO driver. Best of all....



:rofl:



There's no difference between Vista and XP in Cakewalk's Sonar 7, measured by input/output latency. Imagine that.

It used to be bad in Vista, don't get me wrong, but it's not like that any more.

[Donnie27]

I think alot of users really having problems with Vista and WaveRT don't have a midi controller installed, so have never installed an ASIO driver. Best of all....:rofl:



There's no difference between Vista and XP in Cakewalk's Sonar 7, measured by input/output latency. Imagine that.

It used to be bad in Vista, don't get me wrong, but it's not like that any more.

Lastly, good to hear it has improved that much. I don't try to LOCK myself into anything and open to change.

:rofl: I never said I never had MIDI installed/connected and yes I did have it, had other crap remove it, then reinstalled it again;) Let me make this clear, that's with Windows XP Home. I've had a MIDI Keyboard (borrowed) plugged right into the Platinum's I/O Drive. Even recorded some 3D MIDI that was pretty funny. It is also why I wished they (auzen and creative) have made the I/O Drive compat, again, I actally use mine.

I've not touched Vista in months. Like I said on the other post when I install it, I'll be back for advice:)

I do research Vista as well.

[swaaye]

I believe the advantage to ASIO with plain digital playback is its lower latency. Can be helpful with live mixing. Certainly not a big deal at all though.

Vista should sound better than XP actually for a Creative Audigy 4 or older because Vista resamples to 48KHz by default, bypassing Creative's relatively poor SRC engine that otherwise would resample to 48KHz itself (usually). X-Fi doesn't have this problem though. This isn't something that's very audible though, regardless of what the intarwebs says.

[Donnie27]

I believe the advantage to ASIO with plain digital playback is its lower latency. Can be helpful with live mixing. Certainly not a big deal at all though.

Vista should sound better than XP actually for a Creative Audigy 4 or older because Vista resamples to 48KHz by default, bypassing Creative's relatively poor SRC engine that otherwise would resample to 48KHz itself (usually). X-Fi doesn't have this problem though. This isn't something that's very audible though, regardless of what the intarwebs says.

On the Audigy 4, sure. But X-Fi has pretty good SRC and the Auzen Prelude X-Fi fanally bangs that point home loud and clear as a GlockenSpiel! Bit Perfect to bypass SRC on the Audigy isn't impossible.

The other point that drives me up the wall is why would some one buying Vista upgrade all of their system except the sound Card? Then wonder why it sucks? How old is the Auidgy Series Card? So go back and run your 6 or 7 year Video card, RAM and Mobo from those days?

http://techreport.com/articles.x/8884



The X-Fi's processing power is divided between five internal units: the sample rate converter, digital signal processor, and mixer, filter, and tank engines. Much of the X-Fi's muscle ripples through a sample rate converter (SRC) that Creative claims pushes over 7000 MIPS. The SRC is actually made up of 256 individual sample rate converters, all of which tackle sampling rate conversions in the same manner. First, the sampling rate of an incoming audio stream is doubled. Next, a poly phase Finite Impulse Response (FIR) filter is used to produce a sampling rate four times greater than the desired output sampling rate. Finally, the sampling rate is reduced by a factor of four for output. According to Creative, this process is nearly transparent, and any loss in quality during sample rate conversions is miniscule compared to the noise generated by even the best DACs available on the market. If you're not convinced, the SRC can be bypassed when it's not needed.

Bit Perfect is easily turned off or on. Please don't compare the Audigy of any kind to the X-Fi's, except the X-Audio version. Cakewalk wasn't talking about Audigy but more than likely the Cards they ship versions of their software with. That'd be the Audigy 4 Pro, Elite Pro and EMU cards. I can't wait until the Analog transfers from my Reel to Reel are complete.

[cadaveca]

I just wanted to be clear, Donnie, my comments are not directed at you at all...as you've already said, you aren't running VIsta. Just rest assured that hte problems, no matter what they are, are always reported as a greater problem than they really are. It's very easy for companies to blame M$ for problems, as M$ rarely "fights back", leaving those making the detrimental arguments looking good..until exposed.

[Donnie27]

I just wanted to be clear, Donnie, my comments are not directed at you at all...as you've already said, you aren't running VIsta. Just rest assured that hte problems, no matter what they are, are always reported as a greater problem than they really are. It's very easy for companies to blame M$ for problems, as M$ rarely "fights back", leaving those making the detrimental arguments looking good..until exposed.

No biggie, and yes I know when things don't go right some folks are likely to blow it up. Sometimes not. Again, look at what I said about folks with Audigy sound cards? You'd think the damned things are not obsolete. How many Vista folks do you see complainning about their ATI 8500 or nVidia Ti-4400? Vista clearly has some folks not thinking straight.

[cadaveca]

Yeah, it's a point of contention for me as well. Fortuantely my "Vista Experience" has been nothing but positive.

[ROBSCIX]

Yeah, it's a point of contention for me as well. Fortuantely my "Vista Experience" has been nothing but positive.

Same here, especially when it comes to audio. I am surprised at the lack of issues considering some of the threads I have read. As you know, recording requires alot of know-how just to properly track never mind the more advanced topics and some just aren't up to the task so when they have troubles they complain and blame everything BUT the guy behind the keyboard.:shrug:

[Donnie27]

Same here, especially when it comes to audio. I am surprised at the lack of issues considering some of the threads I have read. As you know, recording requires alot of know-how just to properly track never mind the more advanced topics and some just aren't up to the task so when they have troubles they complain and blame everything BUT the guy behind the keyboard.:shrug:

:rofl:

Yes, especially when the guy behind the Keyboard has few to no problems with WinXP and only with Vista;) Of course they'll blame Vista when going back to WinXP :rolleyes:

You know the same can be said for using Obsolete equipment and blaming everything but that crappy old stuff. Or using that old %#$^ to base views on.:down:

There is a parallel. He has no problems with Vista and others shouldn't either is the line of thinking. Then I had Zero problems except switching Digital on. So almost everyone shouldn't have problems with X-Fi, right;)

[Donnie27]

Yeah, it's a point of contention for me as well. Fortuantely my "Vista Experience" has been nothing but positive.

http://www.dailytech.com/Vista+SP1+Problems+Bug+Some+Users/article11164.htm

http://www.dailytech.com/Vista+SP1+Update+Process+Kills+Some+PCs+Microsoft+ Responds/article10781.htm


Many mistakenly labeled the problem as an issue caused directly by Vista SP1. While SP1 did inadvertently trigger the problem, it was the prerequisite update for Vista SP1 that raised havoc on users' machines. Microsoft has responded quickly, acknowledging this problem, and hopes to fix the update.

Must be a user bug there too LOL!

[swaaye]

Honestly I have few issues with my Audigy 2 in Vista. I'm using those Daniel_K drivers, which thankfully added Soundfont support. That was the only big thing I was missing with the basic official Creative driver release.

There is nothing wrong with using Audigy cards in XP, especially. They are great for games as they are capable of almost all EAX functions and are very cheap these days. Their sound quality is definitely nothing to sneer at either.

[Donnie27]

Honestly I have few issues with my Audigy 2 in Vista. I'm using those Daniel_K drivers, which thankfully added Soundfont support. That was the only big thing I was missing with the basic official Creative driver release.

There is nothing wrong with using Audigy cards in XP, especially. They are great for games as they are capable of almost all EAX functions and are very cheap these days. Their sound quality is definitely nothing to sneer at either.

I don't know much about Vista's interworkings. I do know that I haven't seen many of the Problems folks complian about with SCP and etc in WinXP. Again, I don't many Geeks at this or any sites is wrongly jumping Vista. Just as some like Vista, others don't but neither side is wrong.

For the record, there were folks who defended Windows ME as well.

[EvilBellyLint]

vista works fine for me using cubase or reaper in my mixes

yes very good to hear, as I will be running cubase under Vista-64...


EBL

[Donnie27]

I just wanted to be clear, Donnie, my comments are not directed at you at all...as you've already said, you aren't running VIsta. Just rest assured that hte problems, no matter what they are, are always reported as a greater problem than they really are. It's very easy for companies to blame M$ for problems, as M$ rarely "fights back", leaving those making the detrimental arguments looking good..until exposed.

OK, I've running Vista for one week now and my experience has been positive as well.

First I installed the old drivers and wasn't disappointed or Impressed. After the New ones I'm at least happy. I've not run into any major problems but the is with Vista Home Premium 32bit on the HTPC. I wanted Home Premium 64bit for my everyday use computer.

The new drivers adds the Bass Redirection to the Entertainment Mode and the bass has to be de tuned, flattened and turned down LOL! Wayyyy overdone by the Creative X-Fi. It's like it has a new Opamp or something.

Others I know who installed the drivers have told me similar things. Just the oposite of why I started this thread. The apps changed in Vista from XP but I must admit, so far it has been for the BEST! Everything seems to run faster on both the Auzen and Creative's X-Fi's, in WinXP as well BTW.

The only problem with Vista I've had is with my Avermedia TV card. Needs a newer version of the WinTV2000 app:D

[ROBSCIX]

..Try the KM Player, a bit tricky to set up but works great in Vista and XP for most tuner cards. -Count yourself lucky on that one, as many TV tuners that work great in XP are NOT supported in Vista. Yes the X-fi Prelude drivers do work quite well in Vista, from my impressions anyway.

[Donnie27]

..Try the KM Player, a bit tricky to set up but works great in Vista and XP for most tuner cards. -Count yourself lucky on that one, as many TV tuners that work great in XP are NOT supported in Vista. Yes the X-fi Prelude drivers do work quite well in Vista, from my impressions anyway.

Can't count myself lucky until get a better app, I'll give the KM-Player a shot, thanks!

[cadaveca]

either that or VLC for your vid.


That was my one major gripe too..excessive bass on the X-FI. really tho, it's your speakers giving off too much bass.:rofl:


(I have 2 subs, left and right, there's really nothing wrong other than your setup was tuned for XP)

[ROBSCIX]

Yep, VLC is another good one. I prefer KM players as you can configure it so many different ways and is has amazing picture quality and plays whatever you have the codecs for. I find Vista has great sound quality with the Prelude actually with most cards I have tested after getting everything setup right.

@Donnie27, to note if you want to use your DDL encoder in Vista just leave the Vista audio control panel setup for normal speakers output and enable DDL in the cards drivers. I will try and save you some agony...many guys would set the audio control panel to SPDIF as you would think that makes sense but..no,no not for DDL. Good Luck with Vista...

[Donnie27]

Yep, VLC is another good one. I prefer KM players as you can configure it so many different ways and is has amazing picture quality and plays whatever you have the codecs for. I find Vista has great sound quality with the Prelude actually with most cards I have tested after getting everything setup right.

@Donnie27, to note if you want to use your DDL encoder in Vista just leave the Vista audio control panel setup for normal speakers output and enable DDL in the cards drivers. I will try and save you some agony...many guys would set the audio control panel to SPDIF as you would think that makes sense but..no,no not for DDL. Good Luck with Vista...

Not at all hehehe! I use Analog since that rig is still in my computer room being tweaked before I take it downstairs.

[Donnie27]

either that or VLC for your vid.


That was my one major gripe too..excessive bass on the X-FI. really tho, it's your speakers giving off too much bass.:rofl:


(I have 2 subs, left and right, there's really nothing wrong other than your setup was tuned for XP)

Thanks for the tip:)

My set up is not just for my XP Computer though. It have had or still have a Cassette, Reel to Reel, Turn table and two other computers connected. Please also note that my main computer has the Prelude 7.1 installed. For digital (games, since I don't watch movies up there) out it shouldn't change that much.

With that said, I like the Bass from the Prelude better:D The unadjusted base from the Vista sounds like Gangta Rap on every song. I have two 10's and one 12 sub's.

[Donnie27]

either that or VLC for your vid.


That was my one major gripe too..excessive bass on the X-FI. really tho, it's your speakers giving off too much bass.:rofl:


(I have 2 subs, left and right, there's really nothing wrong other than your setup was tuned for XP)

Oh, the drivers on Aver Media's site work perfectly in Vista Home Premium 32bit. Both the drivers and apps work better than they did in WinXP, go figure.
The drivers didn't work the first time we tried this with Vista so something very different. I need to add a SATA DVD burner and it then goes down to the den.

Hey cadaveca, I went back and installed the on-board sound and the same thing happened except it sounded a lot worse. Harsh, noisy and muddy.

Gosh I wished the Prelude was compat with my I/O drive:(

[Donnie27]

I started out saying Vista sounded worse. Now I'm saying the new drivers had something do with my change of heart. The new drivers are more funtional, not so sure about the overall sound but the tweaks help a lot.

After getting my Tuner card working correctly when I thought I wouldn't be able to, I almost ready to my that PC to my Den, needs one more SATA-Burner.

[cadaveca]

Good to hear it's going well. Vista ain't so bad...a bit heavy GUI, but it works...

[Donnie27]

Good to hear it's going well. Vista ain't so bad...a bit heavy GUI, but it works...

I agree! I'm 180 dgrees from where I started this thread:D As one other bud told me, chalk it up to better driver support.

The bad new:( The more stuff I install, the more Memory is used. Now up to 589MB and climbing.

Oh and too frakking bad the GSkill PK will not run faster 667MHz eventhough it was sold as 800MHz RAM LOL!