Cascade 6 (mobile assault unit)

[bazx]

most of the parts for this build will be comming from cascade 4 accept the comps and cases

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=126920

She lived a short but glorious life 12-17-2006 to 11-04-2008 R.I.P my freind

any ho on with the new



Cascade 6 is to be a mobile unit as I have had the need to go to events of late and my current cascades have been difficult at best to move around

With this unit the compressors will be mounted around a central column along with the oil separators and most of the first stage

From this the pipe work will raise up throw a table top where it will be routed to the evaporator, heat exchangers and gauges

This unit will also have the ability to change evaporator sets with out the loss of refrigerant along the lines of cascade 5

So could be used in a skulltail 2x CPU configuration or GPU/CPU or just CPU

As the chassis on this build is key this unit i may well be making changes to it for the best arrangements as the build progresses

The top and sides of the unit will be closed in this build

The evaporator is to be the new V8 from SoddemFX


first stage

NP 362P R-407C LG
Condenser:1x STVF 273
de-super heat 1x STVF 100 Luve (will be able to turn the fan on and off if needed )
1,6l receiver
Danfoss tev: Tes2 00 orifice
Hx: 16 plate
in line filter 3/8
in line spun filter to cap
High pressure gauge
R507


second stage

compressor: Hitachi CHY33MC4-U 17630 BTU
Oil separator: temprite 900
danfoss high pressure cut off KP 5
Hx: 12 plate
TEB2 danfoss
STVF47 de-super
cold ice pressure relief valve 24 bar
High pressure gauge
spun drier/filter

R23


Third stage

compressor: Hitachi CHY33MC4-U 17630 BTU
Oil separator: temprite 900
danfoss high pressure cut off KP 5
STVF47 de-super
cold ice pressure relief valve 24 bar
High pressure gauge
spun drier/filter
5.6L expansion tank

R14

[bazx]

This is the chassis so far tomorrow i will mount the 2x oil sep's


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/DSC01285.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/DSC01289.jpg

[bazx]

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/DSC01291.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/DSC01296.jpg

[n00b 0f l337]

Very nice job, I love the idea, very thoughtful! I'm assuming you made that table thing yourself? Great job :) I'd recommend r14 for the third stage, but why not try an autocascade?

[marru]

Haha, nice assembly, but i wouldnt be anywhere that thing when the 3 rotarys are up and running. :sofa:

[[XC] gomeler]

Hot damn bazx, that looks awesome. Great idea on the chassis also, should really help with usability. Nice job welding that steel together :up:

[n00b 0f l337]

So lets see, condensers going to be mounted to undersize of the "mobo" tray? I think your going to need more of those little pull stands :)

[godmod]

Make sure that you mount different wheels - WITH brake

[[XC] gomeler]

Make sure that you mount different wheels - WITH brake

What if this is a dual-purpose chassis though? It is after all a mobile assault unit, I think bazx is really creating the opposite of a flamethrower, a cold thrower! In all seriousness though, brakes would be helpful as stuff tends to get accidentally bumped from time to time and it'd suck to drag everything off the table and snap a suction line.

[bazx]

hehe these are not the final wheels just mock up once all the welding of the mounts is compleat its going of to be powder coated

yes nol the condencer will be under the table also the receiver

and most of the oil sep just the top of each sep will be visable from the top

[bazx]

Haha, nice assembly, but i wouldnt be anywhere that thing when the 3 rotarys are up and running. :sofa:

why:)

[runmc]

Very nice idea bazx :yepp: This is like a new program coming on the television. :up: I like it.;)

[bazx]

Very nice idea bazx :yepp: This is like a new program coming on the television. :up: I like it.;)


i have missed the phase section and have wanted to build a new cascade for some time ron

so will be enjoying this build a great deal

@ nol i was thinking R14 myself never used it before so it will be a new refrigerant for me

as for auto cascade i will build one eventually but i am not ready yet

[killermiller]

It is amazing what people come up with. Weld a heavy duty dolly to it and you have mobility and stability.

[n00b 0f l337]

Trick to R14, have an extremely short unrestrictive captube on the r1150 stage, you need the capacity if your going ambient down to -90C and expect to transfer load well.

[[XC] 2long4u]

^^
Use the captube like an orifice tube?

[n00b 0f l337]

LoL no not that unrestrictive, just less then you'd normally use. Sdumpers has 5ft of .031" on second stage.

[Moc]

00 nozzle will be too small I think.
With 1kW load, -40°C 4K Subcooling and 35°C condensing temp, DanVen 5 says
02 nozzle !

[n00b 0f l337]

Why the monsterously huge compressors by the way? Thats going to be a hell of a 3 stage. Revolutionary idea too. Wish I could make that sorta stand :( :(

[Moc]

Move to Europe :lol: ....
-120°C @ 300W ?
Bazx, what do you want to hold in the third stage?
Perhaps a bigger Plate HX in the first stage would better...

[godmod]

Seems like nowadays 2 stage cascades become uncool and 3 stagers are cool 8)

[n00b 0f l337]

Well Bazx, Sdumpers, whom else got one? Ricky. Fuggers got his but I havent seen him use it lately...

[Moc]

And Fuggers is R4/5**/R1150/R1150 what is in my opinion quite useless.
R14 or R50, if you have a -100°C second stage (under load!) make sense.

[n00b 0f l337]

R50 requires too much flow, and chilling from 0 to -100C is horribly hard actually. The benefit of r1150 in third again is it acts almost like a water loop ;)

[before]

Very nice project Bazx :)

40.7cc/rev + 33cc/rev + 33cc/rev :eek: :D

[godmod]

I hope the first stage can deal with the quite big compressors in the second and third stage.
Bazx, from a economical point of view it would be better to use R-134a + R-23 + R-14.
But if a already had the R-507 and R-1150 at home i would use them too.

@NoL: i didn't mean the count of 3stager units, it's the trend :D

@Bazx: what i forgot to say: i really like the idea of the mobile "case"
For what refrigerant are second and third stage compressors made?

[bazx]

Very nice project Bazx :)

40.7cc/rev + 33cc/rev + 33cc/rev :eek: :D


hehe i have been following your lead:D


@godmod as you say i have the 1150 and the 507 but i also have the 23

i am going to put shut off valves in the second stage before the hx as i think i will be trying different lengths/dia of cap for this stage getting the temps right for r14 in the third stage and i don’t want to be vac-ing down and recharging all the time

[bazx]

Move to Europe :lol: ....
-120°C @ 300W ?
Bazx, what do you want to hold in the third stage?
Perhaps a bigger Plate HX in the first stage would better...

i was also thinking about this

so far i have found the 12 plate can hold load well and have yet to over power
this size but there is always a first time and i might just go for a 20 to be sure

[Clemmaster]

how! An other beauty monster from you for sure!

[Solarfall]

wow this one looks like its gonna be a real monster when its done... :eek:

[tim-]

i know the regular 12plate (~190mm height) is rated for 20kw water-water.. so it's kinda oversized for our use actually.. i think it will work good as well baxz

[n00b 0f l337]

Heh and then some, a 4-6 plate would do ;)

[godmod]

Water-Water ...:rolleyes:
look at water-oil and then imagin what refrigerant-refrigerant will be :down:
heat transfer between two liquids is much better than between one thats evaporating and one gas that is condensing...

[Polizei]

I like the cart idea. :up:

[n00b 0f l337]

Actually if you look back through Chilly1's oldest cascades, he used small 4-6 plate without any problems at all.

[Clemmaster]

heat transfer between two liquids is much better than between one thats evaporating and one gas that is condensing...

I don't think so....

[godmod]

I don't think so....
OK...
...would you mind to tell me why?
I think i said that a little bit too fast, but the heat transfer capacity water-water is up to 10 times higher than with refrigerant.

[{.bLanK} GoD]

Very nice bazx, excellent idea on the portable chassis.
As this will eventually be the route i will go down (3 stage 507/1150/R?) I will be watching this thread like a hawk.

What kind of shut off valves are you going to use on the 2nd stage?
On my dual stage I used heat pump outdoor unit shut off valves which are designed for pretty much exactly what we use them for. Just not at the temps we do.
They work a treat, and they already have the vac port on the evap side suction.

[bazx]

i have the valves you are talking about here as the 2x 17000btu comps came out of a condensing unit

i was going to use one set for the evap mount dis mount

the valves i used on cascade 5 worked ok in a sealed box but i dont know if this will be the case at even lower temps i will need to have a good look around

[Clemmaster]

OK...
...would you mind to tell me why?
I think i said that a little bit too fast, but the heat transfer capacity water-water is up to 10 times higher than with refrigerant.

You're not considering the working conditions at all saying what you said. What do you call heat transfert capacity? The fact that xxx W are transfered between the 2 fluids? In this case the capacity goes to ~infinity unless the heat-exchanger begins to melt because of temperature in both cases... In an interstage HX, all the heat load will be transfered from one refrigerant (condensation) to the other (evaporation) in every cases. The question is : with what deltaT between the two refrigerant?

The heat transfert between two refrigerant that are changing phase and two liquid doesn't concern the same physical properties, you can't compare them as you do. In one case (refrigerant), all the heat load needed to be removed, for the system to work properly, will be, can't be otherwise. You want the CTD to be as low as possible. In the other case (liquid) you want both liquid to reach ~ the same temperature respectivly in inlet and outlet : in this case the heat from the hotter liquid is transfered to the colder one. You want the CTD at the end to be as low as possible, else it would mean that all the "heat difference" hasn't been transfered from one liquid to the other one.

You don't expect the same thing from both cases, that's why you can't compare them.

Now consider an evaporator and a waterblock : in this case you're expecting the same thing from both of them : the lowest CTD between the heatsource and the fluid.
In one case we will consider a stepper evap with a ~180w CPU in a basic prommy like phase unit (~ -40°C IHS temperature in these conditions) and a apogeeGT, 50L/h flowrate and a 29.2°C inlet temperature.

- With the evap I measured a 8K CTD between the IHS and the evap
- With the waterblock and these conditions , Rosco measured a 6.6CTD.

The two CTD aren't so different, are they? Now consider that in one case the massflow is 50kg/h (water) and in the other you've got a <10kg/h mass flow (R507c). Conclusion...

Now use a stepper evap in a waterloop with less than 10L/h inside and tell me what CTD you get? :rolleyes:

Conclusion? Nothing, you can't compare these two systems because you're not playing with the same working conditions at all.

[gosmeyer]

Nice fab work on the stand Barie, Was there an issue with 4 or are you just parting it out? Anyway, i'm sure this will be another example of what happens when attention to detail and quality come together.

[godmod]

Hmm, thats right. But you can say that you can move more or less heat with water-water than with refrigerant-refrigerant if you include certain parameters.

And what is CTD? some C dT ? dT = temperature difference, what is C? Condensing...?! I have no idea.

[Clemmaster]

Sorry, CTD = Constant Temperature Difference :p

If you say "move heat" without considering the physical effects around that would make a system be better than an other (deltaT, temperatures, pressures...) then you can find conditions in which the system you want to be better will be but theses conditions could be irrelevant.

Just to "move" heat, phase-changing is way better than a classic heat transport by a liquid. (enthalpy VS thermal capacity).

[kayl]

looks bazx, should go well at events ;)

[Gunslinger]

Looks like a great idea. One concern though, as you add hardware to the cooling system, you're raising the center of gravity on the whole set-up. I would suggest to make the bottom "feet" the same area as the top table to increase stability.

[Buckeye]

I love this idea also !!

But a thought I had was a problem with shipping this around and a shipping container to put it in. With wheels on the bottom wouldn't be very hard to pack this and secure so it would not shift while being shipped ?

[wdrzal]

Hmm, thats right. But you can say that you can move more or less heat with water-water than with refrigerant-refrigerant if you include certain parameters.

And what is CTD? some C dT ? dT = temperature difference, what is C? Condensing...?! I have no idea.

Water is a Refrigerant it boils in a vacuum,thats how we dehydrate systems.....For all you global warming guys start putting water away in jugs,when the atmosphere gets 250/300f out you'll be able to sell it as refrigerant,if you don't drink it First;) .

[bazx]

Got some more of the chassis done over the weekend and today

Most of the mock-up is done now just need to put in some box section to fix the side panels too and I can send it off to be powder coated
The two 4 inch diameter logs are representing the oil separators
Also the de –super heaters will be mounted next to the first stage condenser


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/mockup/CIMG0938.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/mockup/CIMG0936.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/mockup/CIMG0935.jpg

[Eldonko]

Looks good bazx, love your fab work

[n00b 0f l337]

Very nice! And nice lathe!

[MaSell]

I think you need 4 compressors to make cascade more stable :D :D :D

[teyber]

holy shiat nice lathe :P

[bazx]

thanks lads just got the unit back from powder coat

masell i could not afford to run any more comps:D

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/mockup/bluemockup/CIMG0960.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/mockup/bluemockup/CIMG0961.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/mockup/bluemockup/CIMG0963.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/mockup/bluemockup/CIMG0964.jpg

[n00b 0f l337]

Well damn.

[DagoDuck]

Keep building it. :D

[sacha35]

Looking very good baz, sorry I just had to have the same colour as you had chosen; it just looks so good up against them black compressors I had to have it.

[bazx]

hehe paul

its starting to come together

just been offering up the parts

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/mockup/bluemockup/assem/DSC01300.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/mockup/bluemockup/assem/DSC01302.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/mockup/bluemockup/assem/DSC01303.jpg

[bazx]

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/mockup/bluemockup/assem/DSC01305.jpg


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/mockup/bluemockup/assem/DSC01306.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/chassy/mockup/bluemockup/assem/DSC01313.jpg

[bassie]

Nice frame :up:

[bazx]

The lower section will be boxed in with stainless steel panels the underside will be aluminium sheet with and extractor fan assembly to the rear of the unit opposite the condenser
I will also be fitting a smaller de-super heater (air) to the first stage as well as a water de-super heater which i will use depending on the location and ambiant

The upper section has to take the 2x expansion tanks, 2x plated hx boxed, 2x de-super heaters, gauges and electrics all mounted on an aluminium base

There will be a removable top box which will also have stainless steel panels this will be around
14 inches higher then you can see now
The unit as it is now is around 3 feet 6 inches tall

[n00b 0f l337]

Looking good, looking very good. Only one thing, where'd you get that second temprite 900 used like that? Hehe must be a good source ;)

[bazx]

Looking good, looking very good. Only one thing, where'd you get that second temprite 900 used like that? Hehe must be a good source ;)

hehe that came out of cascade 4 nol

cascade 4 is now back to cascade 3 and will be going to one of our bench team
and i had to leave the other 900 in that unit so i only had to buy the one for this unit

[n00b 0f l337]

O gotcha!
Good source indeed ;)
Hahaha I love the 900's though, hard to beat size to performance ratio.

[bazx]

i would only use thetemprite 900 i love them

[n00b 0f l337]

How much that powder coating cost you? And how did you weld the stand up? I really wish I had a way to weld...

[Planet]

How much that powder coating cost you? And how did you weld the stand up? I really wish I had a way to weld...

its called a welder nol :D Looks to me like he miged it. Looking good Bazx.

[bazx]

yes its mig welded its ot to tricky to get the hang of it

the powder coat came to &#163;90 which is around 2x your money

[n00b 0f l337]

Yeah, well wow, worth it it would seem.

[Planet]

yes its mig welded its ot to tricky to get the hang of it

the powder coat came to £90 which is around 2x your money


Nah. You just gotta keep the temperature down low. Just tack it together in spots and then finish it later. Towards the edges it tends to get hotter because less material for the heat. A little trick is once everything is tacked together you can lay one hand flat and then the hand with the welder ontop of that and use it as a pivot. It will keep your hand steady and allow for a nice bed.

[Clemmaster]

I wish I had your hands bazx... :rolleyes: :)

[bazx]

I wish I had your hands bazx... :rolleyes: :)


lol and i would have your brains:)

clem do you think r23 in the second stage using a tev would give me enough to condense the r14

i have never used r23 tev before but they are available and might give me -82

or would it need to be closer to -90 which would need r1150

thanks baz

[DagoDuck]

Should be possible with R23. I even would recommend this solution. Look at the cascade of august123.

[Clemmaster]

lol and i would have your brains:)

clem do you think r23 in the second stage using a tev would give me enough to condense the r14

i have never used r23 tev before but they are available and might give me -82

or would it need to be closer to -90 which would need r1150

thanks baz

Rotary can run with high discharge pressure so I'd say no reason? :shrug:

I don't know if you would get the capacity you want in the end, I didn't search data on your compressors so I can't tell you right now. Maybe others who already played with it can repport their experience.

I've made a comparison of 2nd stage refrigerant in the -8x range, you've got cooling capacity with a SC21CLX, and condensing rejection assuming a desuperheated vapour entering the HX with 20&#176;C (or 25&#176;C I don't remember). On the right you've got the increase in rejection compared to capacity.

If it can help you with your choice : http://clemmaster.free.fr/2nd_stage_refrigerant.jpg

:)

Edit: and using R1150 in the -90&#176; range would require a "low" displacement, see the capacity and condensing rejection you get with a poor 21cc (poor volumetric efficiency), that's almost 1.2kw needed @ -35&#176;C on first stage (assuming 5K CTD in the HX), that requires a ~30cc in first stage :p:

Edit2: That's a modelization of the SC21CLX of course :D

[Clemmaster]

Hi baz,
I made some more calculations base on a 30.7cc/rev rotary (see the compressor settings, they're for piston compressor but they aren't far from rotaries I think, I checked with a system Tom made). Obviously the values aren't 100&#37;, the modelisation isn't finished yet but they give accurate enough values to start thinking with it. :)

http://clemmaster.free.fr/bazx.jpg

Look at the operating conditions at the bottom before the rest :p:. I tried with several operating conditions/refrigerants and you can see that it may work properly with R23 in the -13x&#176;C range as well.

- I think with the R23 you can use the operating conditions as follows (keep in mind that 1st stage is a 30.7cc here, you'll get an increase in cooling capacity with the 36.7cc/rev one) : ~2/4/8

R1150 @ -90&#176;C on second stage is overkill, you won't be able to condense it at -35&#176;C (@-95&#176;C neither) without having a severe flood back.
But there's something you can do in the -95 ~ -100 range : not use a desupperheater in third stage, that would provide enough load to prevent from liquid return in second stage. You can add a desuperheater (condenser like as usual), turn of the fan and block any passive airflow then you can turn it on if needed :shrug: --> The staging would be : ~2/7/9

I don't know what temperature and load you're aiming so we can't give any conclusion for the moment, except that R23 will work properly :up:

[bazx]

thanks very much for all the work here clem

i will be going with the r23 tev and will do as you suggest for the de-super on the third stage

thanks baz:)

[Clemmaster]

thanks very much for all the work here clem

i will be going with the r23 tev and will do as you suggest for the de-super on the third stage

thanks baz:)

The de-super on third stage was in case you would use R1150, do you plan to use R1150 with the R23 TEV?

[bazx]

yes sorry a tev r23

[bazx]

Made a bit of progress

Base cover
Commando plugs
Removable control box
Wheels with braking system


The base cover is made in two half’s from aluminum sheet which has been lacquered to keep its finish


There is one commando socket for each compressor this will allow me to spread the units load when being used in other location/events
Also allows me to remove all cabling when on the move

As I am running out of space on the lower level I have opted for a removable control box
Which will house all the capacitor, breakers ect
As you can see from the images there are plugs going into the unit which allow power into the control box and then send it back out to the compressors, fans and switches
This feature will help during construction and for any maintenance of the cascade when finished


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/elec/DSC01320.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/elec/DSC01316.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/elec/DSC01322.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/elec/controlbox/cascade&#37;206%20006.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/elec/controlbox/cascade%206%20007.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/elec/controlbox/cascade%206%20008.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/elec/controlbox/cascade%206%20021.jpg

[sacha35]

Looking very good baz, can’t wait to get my hands on the control box to do some electrics, this idea will work very well and if needed will give you the option to remove the electrical box with ease at anytime by just removing the Kettle plugs.

[n00b 0f l337]

OMG just wow.

[4Qman]

emmm, ill say again love it :D :D :D

[DagoDuck]

A perfect work of art! Truly amazing! :up:

[runmc]

I'm blown away bazx :eek: Are you keeping count on the costs?? I'd be interested in final numbers on this one. :D

[bazx]

thanks lads

ron

trying not to think about the cost of this unit:D

but i am trying very hard with this one to learn from all of my mistakes with my earlier cascades

my last 3 stage i could not get to anything if it needed work

so with this unit i want to be able to get to any part with out a compleate strip down

[bazx]

Paul (sacha) came over today with the control box all wired up
And I can’t say how happy I am with the work he has put into this unit
After we had installed the control box he went on to wire in all the fans,
And compressors

Thanks dude

It’s been a while since my last update so here is the rest of the cascade up to date

All that’s missing from the lower level is the expansion tank for the R14

So I have been able to move on to the second level where the 2x plate HX will be installed
Along with the evaporator and suction mount/dismount housing

I have also built the top frame which is removable if needed

Once the top level is underway the frame will be off for powder coating along with the
Gauge and side panels


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/lowerlevelweb/DSC01327.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/lowerlevelweb/DSC01328.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/lowerlevelweb/DSC01329.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/lowerlevelweb/DSC01330.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/lowerlevelweb/DSC01331.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/lowerlevelweb/DSC01334.jpg

[bazx]

i cannot tell you how good it feels to have made it to the uper level of this unit
the lower and chassis seemed to go on forever


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/lowerlevelweb/DSC01347.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/lowerlevelweb/DSC01348.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/lowerlevelweb/DSC01350.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/lowerlevelweb/DSC01353.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/lowerlevelweb/DSC01357.jpg

[Buckeye]

:eek::clap: That is so Sweet ! Very nice work !!

[quintus]

superrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[piotres]

Nice work , very nice :).

How do You paint pipes ? By spray-gun or by brush ? :)

[bazx]

Nice work , very nice :).

How do You paint pipes ? By spray-gun or by brush ? :)

i use a pray can

and alot of masking tape:D

[Sneil]

Wow that is beautiful, what a beast. The electrical, wow:clap:

[n00b 0f l337]

Whats on the top right (3 things) of the control box? And great job, so amazingly done.

[wdrzal]

Whats on the top right (3 things) of the control box? And great job, so amazingly done.

Magnetic contactors.

Sacha35 did a superb job on the wiring & components ,Neat,securely mounted and labeled. The way it should be......:up:

[[XC] 2long4u]

Looking nice!
Where's the convoluted tubing?

[plasmatique]

Fantastic job

[DFI pit bull]

What a work of art, you are a real master baz.

[tiborrr]

Speechless on the quality of the wiring, piping and general design. Flawless.

[n00b 0f l337]

Sorry I don't do commercial HVAC, but what are the magnetic contractors for?

[sacha35]

Sorry I don't do commercial HVAC, but what are the magnetic contractors for?

Hi nOOb
A contactor is an electrically controlled switch (relay) used for switching a power circuit. A contactor is activated by a control input which is a lower voltage / current than that which the contactor is switching.

Contactors come in many forms with varying capacities and features.

Contactors range from having a breaking current of several amps and volts to thousands of amps and many kilovolts.

The physical size of contactors ranges from a few inches to the size of a small car.

Contactors are used to control electric motors, lighting, heating, capacitor banks, and other electrical loads.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/AlbrightSW200A-675.jpg

The use of contactor’s is normally for large current loads, the idea is that you can have a large load that will be switched via the contactor which is just a magnetic coil that will close the contacts when switched with very little current pull on the coil.

So the idea is you can have any given load providing the contactor is rated for that load with a very small load/current being drawn across the switch.

I will give you one example of where this type of contactor is used, large office lighting circuits where the current pull could be any ware up to 30+ amps on one circuit this would not be possible to switch this amount of lights due to the amount of current being pulled across a normal light switch as they are only rated for small loads, by having a contactor this is now possible as the main load/lights will be directly connected to the supply side of the contactor with only the switch switching the coil.


There are so many types of contactor and relays available such as high and low voltage switching so do a bit of a Google on what you are looking for, in the world that we live in playing with high current start-up compressors the contactor make things much easier for us as we are able to switch any amount of load or voltage with only a small switch which reduces the risk of any spiking/arc across the switch it as it is only switching a magnetic coil which normally range from, 12volts up to 415volts.

[n00b 0f l337]

Ah so it allows you to not need as big a power switch basically? That's all.

[sacha35]

Yes in a way, there are also many other things that you could use them for with regards switching, there is timer switching, controlled switching in fact all kinds of control operated switching whether it be digital or analogue so the options are unlimited where precise switching is required for heavy loads.

[bazx]

Just received the new Evaporator from tom ( SoddemFX )

it’s a new revision V8-R and has a hot gas by-pass system

Although i won’t be using this function to begin with its good to know
i have it if decide i need it for cold bug cpu’s as this function will allow me to increase
The evap temp and aid in booting with cpus that won’t play ball

thanks to tom she is a beauty

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/dreadnought/P1000051.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/evap/v8/P1000085.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/evap/v8/v8r2yf3.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/evap/v8/v8typer01kx9.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/evap/v8/v8typer02gy6.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/evap/v8/v8typer03tm8.jpg

[bazx]

here is the mount dis-mount box

taps used are from commercial a/c and have hex drive tap with brass cover
and a service point built in

the taps are mounted to a steel 90 deg angle bracket in the base which is sandwiched between 18mm on mdf on the top
and 36mm on the base

the box will be air tight when in use

still to be insulated with 25mm thick foam same as the hx boxes

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/mountbox/web/P1000091.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/mountbox/web/P1000094.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/mountbox/web/P1000099.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/mountbox/web/P1000106.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/mountbox/web/P1000107.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/mountbox/web/P1000121.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/mountbox/web/P1000130.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/mountbox/web/P1000132.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/mountbox/web/P1000142.jpg

[[XC] 2long4u]

That evap is beautiful! :slobber::slobber:

[eva2000]

woah crazy, mad and cool stuff there bazx !

[Sneil]

very nice evap indeed! The more fins the better, just not sure i like the triangular design of the solid copper column in the middle. I understand the idea was to be thicker at the base to absorb more heat, but I think you need a little more refrigerant there directly over the die instead of copper to provide more adequate cooling of the cpu. just my opinion tho. lookin good!:up:

[teyber]

yikes! the machining is incredible!

Are those 1mm slots? whats overall heigth?

great work to tom...

[jmilcher]

Magnetic contactors.

Sacha35 did a superb job on the wiring & components ,Neat,securely mounted and labeled. The way it should be......:up:

I absolutely love how the wiring is labled, and very super clean. This is one of the nicest cascades I have seen!

[n00b 0f l337]

I love your stainless flex lines mate :)

[G H Z]

Beautiful work bazx, as expected :D

You've got a lot of new ideas in here. Any performance targets? :toast:

[quintus]

the evap looks like...

damn so good it looks da evap:)

[4Qman]

This is same design evap used on High voltage Quads on Skull Trail setup. Worked SUPERB.

soddemFX is a master Guru with phase/cascade RESPECT .......

I want to see -125 @ 300w hehe

[DagoDuck]

Superb evap, mate! :eek:

[bazx]

Beautiful work bazx, as expected :D

You've got a lot of new ideas in here. Any performance targets? :toast:



well with this unit G i have put every thing in place to get the most r14 will let me have:D

also this is my first time with this gas so will just have see what she does:)

[Duh]

seems like brits are doing major damage :) .. really love brits!!
a true work of art!

[tim-]

any picures of the mountingkit?

[bazx]

any picures of the mountingkit?

this is still on my todo list tim

should have something next week:)

[[XC] 2long4u]

I like the thick bottom. It has a ton of mass and is supported by the thinner top. I think that is a superior evap design.

[nachthymnen]

Beautiful work:clap:
You have a really nice idea:D:up:

[TheKarmakazi]

amazing work m8... overall design quality and execution are second to none. hands down the nicest cascade Ive ever seen (now we wait for performance :) )

[bazx]

Thanks lads

Got the 1st stage under pressure yesterday 20 bar for leak testing and she still holding after 24 hour so fingers crossed

Also mounted the 3rd stage expansion tank for R14


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/1st/P1000160.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/1st/P1000164.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/1st/P1000167.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/P1000172.jpg

[n00b 0f l337]

Awesome :)
Hopefully when you bring this places they can power it :P

[august123]

nice!
No sightglass?
Expansiontank is really huge :D But will be helpfull when you want an really save static pressure of course.

[bazx]

No sightglass?

i dont fit them any more as i never look anyway

the tank is 5.8l and i hope this will help with the static R14 when not in use

i have two of them but have decided to leave the R23 expantion out as i have never had a problem with this gas @ static

[sacha35]

Looking good Baz, loving the pipe work mate nice and clean lines.

[Mankz_91]

Although I don't understand half of it, I can appriciate the hard work gone into the build.

The brazing quality, craftsmanship, attention to detail, and planning are incredible :D

[wdrzal]

Looking good Baz, loving the pipe work mate nice and clean lines.

Ya ,it's a shame you just can't lacquer the shinny stuff....most all needs to be covered by insulation.

Hey you could color code & label the piping & insulation. They have tape thats color coded with arrows indicting direction of flow.Then label the major components. I sure you will be answering a lot of questions where your cascade shows up,labeling will help people understand direction of flow & whats things are.....

But you probably already thought of that........:yepp:


Forum members, if you really look @ this cascade about the only "EXTRA" parts are a few fancy quick disconnects for the electrics. And those are necessary for the purpose,portibility and ease of repair.All the rest is necessary.

It "shows" so well because of all the planning & attention to detail BAXZ and SACHA35 did. It usually doesn't cost much more in material to do a professional job ,just a little more labor. This is offset as you acquire the tools, not having to hire out work and you get faster & better with experience. Plus, professional work brings a premium price but more important "more work".

Example : You need the same compressors,same tubing,HX's, Starting & safety components, wiring in every similar unit. You can do neat professional work :up: or you can throw the stuff together to look like crap:down:.

Many customers hire you because they don't understand or do not have the ability/tools to do the work(applies to any job). So they judge your work on neatness and of course it has to function as intended............. < Thats the formula I found to build a successful business on and have customers/friends for life. It doesn't matter if doing HVAC/R/E or mowing lawns...neatness counts,and you bet your customers notice....

Keep up the great work.......

[bazx]

thats real nice thing to say there walt thanks mate




Made some head way today 2nd stage is now under 20 bar test pressure

i will have to get creative with the R23 receiver as i did not allow for the insulation of this part and the cold will spread out from its mount to the aluminum base plate but i have a few ideas on how to deal with it

the safety blow off valve for the R23 has been mounted in the lower section as i needed to be able to get to this part for maintenance as they sometimes don’t hold up and need to be replaced and I have some room there

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/2nd/P1000180.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/2nd/P1000187.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/2nd/P1000190.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/2nd/P1000194.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/2nd/P1000195.jpg

[august123]

my R23 receiver is mounted on an acryl bottom with insulation between base of unit and acryl. it works :up:
Good insulation on receiver of lower stages is very important.

[godmod]

Very nice, very clean :)
I am following your project and like your work mate!

[bazx]

thanks godmod



my R23 receiver is mounted on an acryl bottom with insulation between base of unit and acryl. it works :up:
Good insulation on receiver of lower stages is very important.

i will have to work something out for sure

but i have a few ideas

[n00b 0f l337]

Again looking great, how much was that R23 TXV, and what tonnage it rated for? I'd imagine you don't need more then 1/4 ton of capacity.

[DagoDuck]

No sight glass used before TXV? :)

Regards,

Dago

[bazx]

@ dago

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3034587&postcount=124

@nol its a TEB2 danfoss part and is just for R23 dont have the specs

[wdrzal]

No sight glass used before TXV? :)

Regards,

Dago

You can just charge by sub-cooling. You don't need to SEE the liquid to know it's present.

[Nosfer@tu]

AMAZING :D

Great work like always Bazx. You never stop to amaze me :D

[Planet]

Beautiful work man.

[godmod]

@nol its a TEB2 danfoss part and is just for R23 dont have the specs
Well, I hope I didn't got it wrong. The capacity rating of the valve depends on the orifice used:

It was quite a piece of work, so pls don't just copy and paste..

DANFOSS ORIFICES:

angloamerican, TON

Range N: -40 to +10°C / -40 to +50°F
+----------+-----------------------------------+
| Orifice | Rated capacity in tons (TR) |
| +-----------------------------------+
| No. | R22 |R407C|R134a|R404A| R12 | R502|
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 0X | 0.15| 0.16| 0.11| 0.11| | |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 00 | 0.3 | 0.3 | 0.25| 0.21| 0.2 | 0.2 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 01 | 0.7 | 0.8 | 0.5 | 0.45| 0.3 | 0.3 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 02 | 1.0 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.5 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 03 | 1.5 | 1.6 | 1.3 | 1.2 | 1.0 | 1.0 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 04 | 2.3 | 2.5 | 1.9 | 1.7 | 1.5 | 1.5 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 05 | 3.0 | 3.2 | 2.5 | 2.2 | 2.0 | 2.0 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 06 | 4.5 | 4.9 | 3.0 | 2.6 | 3.0 | 3.0 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+

Range B: -60 bo -25°C / -75 to -15°F
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 0X | 0.15| | | 0.11| | |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 00 | 0.2 | | | 0.21| | 0.2 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 01 | 0.3 | | | 0.45| | 0.3 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 02 | 0.6 | | | 0.6 | | 0.5 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 03 | 0.8 | | | 1.0 | | 0.8 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 04 | 1.2 | | | 1.4 | | 1.2 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 05 | 1.5 | | | 1.7 | | 1.5 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 06 | 2.0 | | | 1.9 | | 2.0 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+


Rest of the world, kW

Range N: -40 to +10°C / -40 to +50°F
+----------+-----------------------------------+
| Orifice | Rated capacity in kW |
| +-----------------------------------+
| No. | R22 |R407C|R134a|R404A| R12 | R502|
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 0X | 0.5 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.38| | |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 00 | 1.0 | 1.1 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 0.7 | 0.7 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 01 | 2.5 | 2.7 | 1.8 | 1.6 | 1.0 | 1.0 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 02 | 3.5 | 3.8 | 2.6 | 2.1 | 1.7 | 2.1 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 03 | 5.2 | 5.6 | 4.6 | 4.2 | 3.5 | 3.5 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 04 | 8.0 | 8.6 | 6.7 | 6.0 | 5.2 | 5.2 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 05 |10.5 |11.3 | 8.6 | 7.7 | 7.0 | 7.0 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 06 |15.5 |16.7 |10.5 | 9.1 |10.5 |10.5 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+


Range B: -60 bo -25°C / -75 to -15°F
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 0X | 0.5 | | | 0.38| | |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 00 | 0.7 | | | 0.7 | | 0.5 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 01 | 1.0 | | | 1.6 | | 1.0 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 02 | 2.6 | | | 2.1 | | 1.7 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 03 | 2.8 | | | 3.5 | | 2.8 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 04 | 4.2 | | | 4.9 | | 4.2 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 05 | 5.2 | | | 6.0 | | 5.2 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| 06 | 7.0 | | | 6.6 | | 7.0 |
+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+


I know that there are no data for R23, but maybe someone here could calculate it. I think I can, but I don't have time now since I have classes tomorrow and its 01:00 in the morning :/

regards

[one_servant]

Excellent work Bazx! :up: What is your tool of choice for those well appropriated pipe bends? :hm:

[wdrzal]

One Servant: it seems the working fluid is flowing in the wrong direction in that 3 stage compressor in your sig ???

[godmod]

One Servant: it seems the working fluid is flowing in the wrong direction in that 3 stage compressor in your sig ???
No, think about it. Depends whether it is a compressor or a generator.
AFAIK the animated pic is from Wikipedia.

[Sam__]

No, think about it. Depends whether it is a compressor or a generator.
AFAIK the animated pic is from Wikipedia.

looks like a generator to me.


Bazx..... this thing is awesome. so neat aswell. kudos to you and w00t for the UK, you make me proud to be british. :D:D:D

[wdrzal]

No, think about it. Depends whether it is a compressor or a generator.
AFAIK the animated pic is from Wikipedia.

I relized that, but why a picture of a generator in your sig in a PC OC'ing /cooling forum??? Reverse the flow and it illustrates a 3 stage compressor.


My brain works in weird ways, just thought it wasn't noticed it wasn't a compressor.........Back on topic............

[one_servant]

Yup, you guys are right. I added that to my sig because I thought it was an excellent thermodynamic display...most fitting for the games we play here. Anyway, I'd thought about modifying the animation for a more accurate representation but when I broke the GIF down and realized how many frames it was composed of...I decided against it. :D

Man, I just love you engineers! Forgive me for I'm a lowly psychologist. Did you know that 95&#37; of all engineers' personalities fall into the same category when tested with one of the most common instruments (the KTS-II)!? Wdrzal, I would bet money that you’re a INTP…

...sorry, I know we are way off topic now so I’ll stop this distraction…but if you’d like to read about yourself check this out: http://www.keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=5&c=architect

[godmod]

I relized that, but why a picture of a generator in your sig in a PC OC'ing /cooling forum??? Reverse the flow and it illustrates a 3 stage compressor.


My brain works in weird ways, just thought it wasn't noticed it wasn't a compressor.........Back on topic............
Hehe, I understand ;)
I saw it before on Wikipedia and thought about it, so thw pic was familiar

edit: nice one_servant, ill read that :)

[bazx]

Been a busy boy today

i now have all 3 stages under 20 bar test pressure and will leave it like that until Wednesday and then will begin vac down and fill

i also have the evap mount complete which leaves the brazing on toms V8-R evaporator
the last job before load testing

here is some info on how I painted the pipe work

1. Bend fit the pipe work for the stage I am working on
2. Take out the pipes that need to end up painted
3. Paint them using a spray can but leave the ends still copper for brazing
4. Reassemble and braze in using a damp cloth around the pipe being brazed to absorb the heat
5. Mask off the rest of the parts you don’t want painted
6. paint


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/paint/P1000199.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/paint/P1000202.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/paint/P1000206.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/paint/P1000210.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/paint/P1000211.jpg

[bazx]

here is the rest of todays work

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/finpipe/P1000218.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/finpipe/P1000220.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/finpipe/P1000222.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/finpipe/P1000224.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/finpipe/P1000234.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/finpipe/P1000240.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/finpipe/P1000245.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/3rd/finpipe/P1000248.jpg

[godmod]

wow bazx, what a clean work! i am really impressed!

[tim-]

i hope you have pressuretest the unit before painting, i've got to work with some units that someone had painted the piping on which where leaking.. not fun at all.

cheers.
Tim

[n00b 0f l337]

Looking great still. Was justl ooking through thread again, why do you have another smaller condenser/desuperheater/coil down below with the big one?

[bazx]

thanks godmod

tim its not to bad to remove just some wire wool

adam i was going to put a water dsh in the first stage for when it gets to hot here in the summer

but changed my mind when i got the smalled candenser you can see for nothing
from an old cooler

i will be able to turn the fan on and off on the dsh if its to cold out or winter

[quintus]

amazed!:) from what he did till now(the way is perfectly looking) he must have check it for leaks;) congrats!

[kayl]

bend perfection :ocau:
It looks cold bazx :up:

[4Qman]

Superb work Baz, cant wait to see it running :D

[sacha35]

This is just looking to good baz, i will have to work harder now i have seen this work, well done mate it's looking Ace.

[barbus]

Very good build and well thought out, well done!
I guess my next statement is all down to personel taste. The yellow pipework looks ming.

[Aphex_Tom_9]

beautiful, beautiful... sub'd

[teyber]

Very good build and well thought out, well done!
I guess my next statement is all down to personel taste. The yellow pipework looks ming.

i see where your coming from... but i think the blue/yellow go together wonderfully. if it was not cased i think it would look silly, but idk how to say it... just looks so innovative i guess.

great work mate :D

[gosmeyer]

Too sick, Way too sick!
Very nice Berrie.

[bazx]

Too sick, Way too sick!
Very nice Berrie.


hope you dont mind i have used your evap mount for toms v-8 evap

[Gautam]

This is just looking to good baz, i will have to work harder now i have seen this work, well done mate it's looking Ace.

Ooh...prettiness battle comin up between the masters? :p:

[bazx]

Ooh...prettiness battle comin up between the masters? :p:

hehe coming up

its been going on for 2 months now:D

and tbh paul has me beat when it comes down to fine detail

[gosmeyer]

hope you dont mind i have used your evap mount for toms v-8 evap
Absolutely not:up:

[bazx]

Absolutely not:up:

cheers eric


hehe did not expect to be able to use the removable electrical control box so soon

there has been a delay in my plans as the first stage compressor failed to work


but the two weeks while i waited for the new unit were not wasted as i rewired my shed and upgraded the power supply also managed to brase up the evaporator and cut down my work bench to allow me to push the cascade in the same spot where cascade 4 used to sit

also fitted the solenoid for the hot gas by-pass to the evap


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/tuning/P1000256.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/tuning/P1000278.jpg

the evap next to toms V8-R is a chilly clone i included a shot just to show how big the v8 evap really is

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/tuning/P1000273.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/tuning/P1000264.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/evap/v8/P1000085.jpg

[bazx]

shot of the hot gas by-pass solenoid this ill allow me to "warm up" the evap to get past any cold boot problems by just pressing a button hot gas will be taken from before the hx and piped straight to the evap face



http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/tuning/P1000263.jpg


gassed the first and second stage also

as you can see the the panel xt120c with pt100 prob are around 10c out to my fluke with k prob mounted in the same location

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/tuning/P1000262.jpg


nice to see some frost on the unit @last

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/tuning/P1000279.jpg

[sacha35]

Nice one baz, all starting to come together now, not long now before we start to see some ice on that amassing evap that Tom made, I just cannot wait to see what she can do.

[bazx]

you would not believe how much noise this thing makes i will need ear protection:D

the last stage is going to take a bit of time to tune

i will put the hot by-pass cap tube and the liquid line cap on tomorrow night
and mount the line set then probably gas the the third stage tuesday

after that it will be down to load testing and adjusting the cap tube length for the the evap which is the bit that will take the time

[yngndrw]

Awesome job, the only thing that I have against it is that it's ment to be "mobile".

It isn't very mobile when you need three large power sockets wherever you park it. :P

[bazx]

thanks for the kind words lads and sorry for not keeping this up to date i have had an event here i34 that just about sucked the last of my strength

update:

after alot of work i failed to get the unit working on R14 (this is the gas that would give me -130) so to get the unit working for i34 i put in R1150
which is giving me a solid -107 loaded

i will stick with this gas for now as i want to bench for a while

i have a few ideas on how to get the r14 working but it can wait for a month now

just been setting up a rampage extreme with a 8600 for the weekend so will have some fun on my own for a change
just had 620fsb out the box on stock air so its looking good

[teyber]

wait- ive been following this thread but i appear to have missed this-

r404a on first(or 507a w/e) but r23 on second? r1150 on third? what kind of capacity are you getting with ethylene on the third?

[n00b 0f l337]

Insane capacity, it's going to be rather low pressure though I imagine.

EDIT: Like I said at Benchtec Bazx, your long liquid run is dooming you I think.

[bazx]

wait- ive been following this thread but i appear to have missed this-

r404a on first(or 507a w/e) but r23 on second? r1150 on third? what kind of capacity are you getting with ethylene on the third?

507tev, 23tev, 1150 cap

this is the setup as of now

nol i want to mount a modded tev for the r14 on the back of the evap some how so that will take a bit of work

[n00b 0f l337]

I don't suggest it, an even larger liquid line? No way. You should be out the bottom of the plate hx, and right to your evap.
I know you want that quick change box, so maybe move it much closer, or run 1/8" tube or something from plate hx to the box.

[bazx]

there will be problems with this for sure but i want to try any how

i will set-up a test evaporator first just for the experiments

the pipe work will have to change from the hx to the mount box i would also think

i enjoy this part of cascade building the most, trying different solution

[n00b 0f l337]

I totally understand, my favorite part too :)

[gosmeyer]

Please tell us bazk! What do you do in your spare time(you know for fun) LOL

[bazx]

well i slept all day today much to the annoyance to all around me:)

[eva2000]

wow been ages since i read this thread and you've done ALOT of work there

great stuff mate!

[bazx]

wow been ages since i read this thread and you've done ALOT of work there

great stuff mate!

eva i have been very lazy today i sould have been benching :D

i will post up some images of the unit tomorrow for sure with some results

[mytekcontrols]

bazx -- You mentioned earlier that you were having problems getting the final stage to work with R14, but apparently have had some success with the R1150. Ever think about doing a mixture of both the R14 and R1150, and perhaps installing a subcooler? It works great on autocascades with R14 and Argon, and I don't see why it wouldn't work with what you are doing. In fact if you want to avoid the cost of R14, try ethylene and methane (with a subcooler). Should be similar to the R14/Argon mix, but just not as cold.

[bazx]

bazx -- You mentioned earlier that you were having problems getting the final stage to work with R14, but apparently have had some success with the R1150. Ever think about doing a mixture of both the R14 and R1150, and perhaps installing a subcooler? It works great on autocascades with R14 and Argon, and I don't see why it wouldn't work with what you are doing. In fact if you want to avoid the cost of R14, try ethylene and methane (with a subcooler). Should be similar to the R14/Argon mix, but just not as cold.

yes i was thinking of trying r14 and then adding 1150 bit at a time to see if that got the stuff moving altho i am not sure if i would want to get into blends at this stage of my development but wont rule it out as i am keen to succeed with this gas

could you explain your subcooler a bit more for me mytekcontrols so i could understand better

i have been sidetracked with one of august123 txv mods that he used with r14

i like the idea of mounting a txv on the back of the evap and his r14 mod seems to work

[mytekcontrols]

I've attached a diagram that should make it a little clearer as to how the Sub-Cooler works.

Basically it steals a fraction of the condensate passing through it, and evaporates this in the suction side counter-flow to the discharge. Since it is essentially isolated from the return path of the evaporator, it is also isolated from any returning heat. Thus it'll tend to maintain a colder temperature then the evaporator (especially under load), and help to subcool the liquid passing through it. When subcooled, there is a greater tendency for absorption of any non-condensibles passing through as well (Argon or Methane). When this condensate consisting of subcooled refrigerant and absorbed gas is later evaporated, it'll do so at a temperature somewhere between the two refrigerants boiling points. So in other words; Subcooled R14 with absorbed Argon gas will boil colder then R14 alone.

The same should tend to hold true for a combination of R1150 and R14 in your system, assuming that you can obtain temperatures below the boiling point of the R1150 within the Sub-Cooler. On the other hand this would be a mute point if you could already obtain temperatures and pressure to fully condense the R14 in the first place.

I hope that answers your question.

[bazx]

I've attached a diagram that should make it a little clearer as to how the Sub-Cooler works.

Basically it steals a fraction of the condensate passing through it, and evaporates this in the suction side counter-flow to the discharge. Since it is essentially isolated from the return path of the evaporator, it is also isolated from any returning heat. Thus it'll tend to maintain a colder temperature then the evaporator (especially under load), and help to subcool the liquid passing through it. When subcooled, there is a greater tendency for absorption of any non-condensibles passing through as well (Argon or Methane). When this condensate consisting of subcooled refrigerant and absorbed gas is later evaporated, it'll do so at a temperature somewhere between the two refrigerants boiling points. So in other words; Subcooled R14 with absorbed Argon gas will boil colder then R14 alone.

The same should tend to hold true for a combination of R1150 and R14 in your system, assuming that you can obtain temperatures below the boiling point of the R1150 within the Sub-Cooler. On the other hand this would be a mute point if you could already obtain temperatures and pressure to fully condense the R14 in the first place.

I hope that answers your question.

thanks for all the work you have done mytec

i will have a think on it all:)


bench some today had the unit running for 3 hours without any problems
held -107 solid right thro

E8600 @1.88v
RampageX
ballistic ram

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/rampage/web/P1000545.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/rampage/web/P1000548.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/rampage/web/bing.gif

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/rampage/web/untitled.gif

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/rampage/web/P1000552.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/rampage/web/P1000551.jpg

[mytekcontrols]

thanks for all the work you have done mytec
i will have a think on it all
No prob, just thought it might be of some use.

Still loving your unit. Wow what fantastic craftmanship has gone into it! But it sure is a big monster of a unit (I think I just saw my lights dim --- did you just turn it on? :D).

[bazx]

No prob, just thought it might be of some use.

Still loving your unit. Wow what fantastic craftmanship has gone into it! But it sure is a big monster of a unit (I think I just saw my lights dim --- did you just turn it on? :D).

it is a beast for sure and i must say it holds load like nothing i have built befor

but this one was suposed to be coolder than -107 so still work to be done

i had planed cascade 7 to be an auto cascade unit so i will need lots of help with that :D

and you are one of the guys i will be pm ing:p:

[n00b 0f l337]

Whats your third stage pressure running at with r1150?

[bazx]

Whats your third stage pressure running at with r1150?

11/12 bar

edit third stage is now 7bar after comp swop to 12000btu and a better vac job

[n00b 0f l337]

Really?
Ah forgot the 2nd stage is R23 not R1150, that's some really nice load, even though you must be running in vacuum :)
I cant wait to see a Bazx Autocascade, you do seem to have most of the refrigerants now and sitting. I'm rather jealous ;)

[Nosfer@tu]

Im Sorry I dont read the entire thread again :D

I have read it a few times already :D

But why did she die bazx ?

Btw next time you speak with barron and busta please give them my regards and say Tits UP from me :D

Hope to visit them one day and bench again :D

[bazx]

Im Sorry I dont read the entire thread again :D

I have read it a few times already :D

But why did she die bazx ?

Btw next time you speak with barron and busta please give them my regards and say Tits UP from me :D

Hope to visit them one day and bench again :D

hehe she is alive:D i have just been benching with the unit for a while
until i get the strength to work with r14 again

i will be working on the side panels soon

i have all the fans now as i need to get the panels on and make it quieter it is very loud

i am glad you enjoyed working with my team mates they are very dedicated and make me proud:)

[Clemmaster]

I've attached a diagram that should make it a little clearer as to how the Sub-Cooler works.

Basically it steals a fraction of the condensate passing through it, and evaporates this in the suction side counter-flow to the discharge. Since it is essentially isolated from the return path of the evaporator, it is also isolated from any returning heat. Thus it'll tend to maintain a colder temperature then the evaporator (especially under load), and help to subcool the liquid passing through it. When subcooled, there is a greater tendency for absorption of any non-condensibles passing through as well (Argon or Methane). When this condensate consisting of subcooled refrigerant and absorbed gas is later evaporated, it'll do so at a temperature somewhere between the two refrigerants boiling points. So in other words; Subcooled R14 with absorbed Argon gas will boil colder then R14 alone.

The same should tend to hold true for a combination of R1150 and R14 in your system, assuming that you can obtain temperatures below the boiling point of the R1150 within the Sub-Cooler. On the other hand this would be a mute point if you could already obtain temperatures and pressure to fully condense the R14 in the first place.

I hope that answers your question.

Hi mytek, I was just wondering if you already had an idea on this question :

Do you really get lower temperature at same cooling capacity with a subcooler than with the gas itself evaporating at lower pressure, assuming in both case you've got the same compressor (of course) and assuming it is a rotary one (it can be much harder to run at very high pressure ratio with recip and their biger (in most cases I've worked on) percent clearance)?

Baz wants to get a decent capacity prior to go as low as possible and I see subcooler more as a way to reach lower temperature with a given gas/blend than a way to get a lower temperature and get the same capacity in the end, but I may be wrong I don't have your knowledge about this so I'm just asking :p:

[Aphex_Tom_9]

so clean and pro looking, great to see it doing its job

[Nosfer@tu]

hehe she is alive:D i have just been benching with the unit for a while
until i get the strength to work with r14 again

i will be working on the side panels soon

i have all the fans now as i need to get the panels on and make it quieter it is very loud

i am glad you enjoyed working with my team mates they are very dedicated and make me proud:)

Yes they are Good guys for sure :D

If I read correct. You reuse the old compressors from the other projects to make this unit...

If so you should sell them instead. I mean the entire cascade because your work needs it own class :D

You make it look so BEAUTIFULL :D

[mytekcontrols]

Hi mytek, I was just wondering if you already had an idea on this question :

Do you really get lower temperature at same cooling capacity with a subcooler than with the gas itself evaporating at lower pressure, assuming in both case you've got the same compressor (of course) and assuming it is a rotary one (it can be much harder to run at very high pressure ratio with recip and their biger (in most cases I've worked on) percent clearance)?

Baz wants to get a decent capacity prior to go as low as possible and I see subcooler more as a way to reach lower temperature with a given gas/blend than a way to get a lower temperature and get the same capacity in the end, but I may be wrong I don't have your knowledge about this so I'm just asking
Very good questions. Now let me see if I have some good answers ;).

Do you really get lower temperature at same cooling capacity with a subcooler...
This would probably be a NO in most situations. Since the subcooler as I showed it, requires about 1/3 of the final flow to be diverted back to feed it. Probably resulting in a net loss in capacity. Although there could be exceptions, depending upon improvement in the quality of the final condensate. For instance; if the pressure, temperature, boiling point relationship without the subcooler were less than ideal for the refrigerants involved, the portion of refrigerant blend that was condensed could also be less than ideal. By adding additional cooling via the subcooler, theoretically the improvement achieved in condensing gas into liquid, could out weigh the 1/3 diversion in final flow.

...I see subcooler more as a way to reach lower temperature with a given gas/blend than a way to get a lower temperature and get the same capacity in the end...
Yes the subcooler's main purpose is to achieve lower temperatures with gas blends, and as I pointed out, usually requires a sacrifice in capacity to bring this about. This would be especially true for gas blends that have a component with a boiling point far below the systems ability to condense it (Argon).

[n00b 0f l337]

When you have such a huge compressor being used though, and your really just using that to run into lower suction pressures, it might massively outweigh it to have a subcooler, run a higher suction pressure, and get lower temps.

[mytekcontrols]

When you have such a huge compressor being used though, and your really just using that to run into lower suction pressures, it might massively outweigh it to have a subcooler, run a higher suction pressure, and get lower temps.
True. And it would also benefit the compressor, having better cooling, due to the increased mass flow (e.g.; higher suction pressure).

It is a difficult thing to accurately predict, but I think it would be well worth a try. Especially since a subcooler is very easily constructed, and really doesn't need to be very big in order to do its work.

[[XC] gomeler]

With the size of compressors he's using on that build, I'd say it'd be completely worth it. Perhaps R507 on 1st stage, R1150 on 2nd stage, R1150/Argon on the 3rd stage with the sub-cooler or retry R14 with R1150 on the 2nd stage.

[bazx]

lads just a quick update on the 3rd stage i have swapped out the 3rd stage comp it is now a 12000btu still on 1150 for now but pressures are much better HP 7bar 5 inch idle 1 ish loaded

[n00b 0f l337]

And temps?

[ryba]

thanks for all the work you have done mytec

i will have a think on it all:)


bench some today had the unit running for 3 hours without any problems
held -107 solid right thro

E8600 @1.88v
RampageX
ballistic ram


Sorry bro, but good dual stage can make this temp with this cpu ;)

[bazx]

And temps?

just the same adam -106 loaded

both me and paul will be trying again with the r14 but not for a month or so

[ataruz]

very nice work bazx :)

[bazx]

very nice work bazx :)

thanks my friend good to see you in here:D

[bazx]

finally got the side panels on the unit still not sure what colour to go with

atm blue the same colour as the chassis

i have also noticed the unit is starting to look like wall-e

http://disney-clipart.com/Wall-E/characters/Ultimate%20Wall-E%20GI.jpg


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cascade6walle/P1000712.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cascade6walle/P1000714.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cascade6walle/P1000716.jpg

back in the shed:D

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cascade6walle/P1000721.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cascade6walle/P1000719.jpg

[piotres]

Looks like Monster :)) .

Can You post final temperatures ?

What are dimension of it :) ?

Panels - maybe white ?:rolleyes:

regards

[Ozzfest05]

whats the final weight on this beast

[bazx]

@peter i am experimenting with using a tev for the r14 mounted on the back of the evap so the unit is not quite there as far as temps are concerned atm the 3rd stage has 1150 in

@Ozzfest05 i don't know but i cannot lift it

[GLENBOY]

nice one bazx i can just imagine it now , you going to a lan party and saying do you mind if i use my own cooling unit then you come into the room pushing the beast and it goes silent and all you hear is thye wheels creaking as you roll it along , nice quality of build, what was the overalll cost of building excluding the 100s of hours work you put in

[bazx]

nice one bazx i can just imagine it now , you going to a lan party and saying do you mind if i use my own cooling unit then you come into the room pushing the beast and it goes silent and all you hear is thye wheels creaking as you roll it along , nice quality of build, what was the overalll cost of building excluding the 100s of hours work you put in

i don't honestly know the cost of this unit in parts but more then 2k

[GLENBOY]

its a hell of a machine you've built there , thanks for sharing

[Ozzfest05]

that thing is a tank I wondering how much electicity its pulling from the socket

[V2-V3]

One word, "WOW" whats the weight on that SOB? I hope you dont have to ship it to the next event!

[[XC] gomeler]

Damn impressive man. I really hope you can work out the R14 issues. How did NoL make it work yet the two of you are having such huge issues? Would be great to see that baby pull down to -140C :up:

[annton]

Very impressive. How loud is it?

[bazx]

gomeler;3553842']Damn impressive man. I really hope you can work out the R14 issues. How did NoL make it work yet the two of you are having such huge issues? Would be great to see that baby pull down to -140C :up:

getting a temp of -139 is one thing having a unit that does it every time you turn your unit on and can bench with a load on it is where both me and sacha35
have had problems gomeler

one thing i can say for sure is if we get r14 working in our units we will say exactly how we did it

@annton How loud is it? it was very loud before the panels went on however i have yet to try it with them on

[teyber]

hey whats the weight on it baz? can you lift it? are you using cap tube or a txv on the third stage? how much do you think it cost? how loud is it?


:p: :p:

hehe im just playing with you. i hope the txv fixes those frustrating r14 issues

[marru]

Spectacular build. Congrats :up:

[tiborrr]

Indeed a spectacular build! :up: Is it possible you have oil related issues? Would two oil separator in series solve this issue? Have you ever tried CPEV evaporator feeding on third stage?

[bazx]

Indeed a spectacular build! :up: Is it possible you have oil related issues? Would two oil separator in series solve this issue? Have you ever tried CPEV evaporator feeding on third stage?

i had originally thought it was oil but not any more it works fine with 1150 which off load can get to -115 if there were oil there i would see problems with both refrigerants

august had some success with r14 tev that is whats driving this current experiment

[n00b 0f l337]

I still think alot of your problems are oil related Bazx.
Hope you get it pulling major ass kicking soon though it seems like it does that more then enough already :)

[bazx]

Cpev

after quite a bit of work with R14 i am beginning to understand its behavior a little better

link to earlier work with a tev and r14

http://www.xtremesystems.org/FORUMS/showthread.php?t=214659


i have moved to a cpev (supplied by piotres) setup for the first time and so far i like it

it does not seem to leak at very cold temps altho atm i have not tried one under load

but it installed very easy and pulled down to -132

hp is 8 bar atm but most likely rise to 9 bar under load

vacuum is - 5 but i expect it to settle around 0 also once under load


the evap is a chilly clone but 1/3 longer supplied by cold ice and has 3x 2mm cross holes leading to the suction return near the base
the feed from the cpev is 1/4 and feeds in at the top of the spiral

if you look down the evap you can see the cross drilled return holes

http://www.net7.info/1/cascade3/build/evap/DSC00282.jpg


i will be load testing on Saturday with the same AMD rig i used in the tev experiments:)


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/web/P1000813.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/web/P1000814.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/web/P1000815.jpg

[bazx]

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/web/P1000824.jpg

-5 inch vacuum

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/web/P1000829.jpg

8 bar hp

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/web/P1000822.jpg

temp probs fixed at evap wall on the dt and suction return on the fluke

[runmc]

If you do have oil issues it will log up in the cpev after running a bit and temps will drop. Very nice experiment bazx - we're all watching:D

[bazx]

ron if this fails mate i am going back to R1150:D


R14 has been a long and costly journey and i need to be nearing the end

also i have found that most oil problems with the refrigerant are at least with my experience linked to high vacuum

if you can control the vacuum and keep it the right side of -10 it tends not to pull oil thro the oil separator

[bazx]

paul came over sunday and we spent the day tunning the unit to work with R14 and the cpev under load


we completed the work with the cpev

and i have my unit stable under load now @-122 which is at around 230w (i used a cpu@1.8v5000mhz with wprime on all for cores and measured the load)

first stage refrigerant has been changed to 404a (this is just a cost saver as i did not need to go to the expense of 507)

i used a 02 orifice on the first stage and a 00 on the second stage which is the r23 tev but this is very close to its maximum and i think i will change this to a 01 orifice soon

the r14 stage needed 11.5 bar hp to hold load which i thought was a little high i had expected it to work @ 9 bar with the r23 stage @ -82 but my gauges might be out a little

one thing i have found with this refrigerant is it wont work in a strong vacuum any more then -10 inch and it wont pull down

under load i have vacuum @ +1 and high pressure at 11.5 bar this give me -122c

ready for some benching now:D

AMD are sending over a 955 CPU and Gigabyte have supplied a MA790XT-UD4P which is an AM3 setup so that will be my next project

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/loaded/P1000830.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/loaded/P1000840.jpg

[bazx]

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/loaded/P1000841.jpg


after the prime we ran an 06 and it held fine


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/loaded/P1000832.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/loaded/P1000844.jpg

http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/loaded/P1000850.jpg

[sdumper]

Bazx congrats!!

I bet this feels awesome !!!

[bazx]

Bazx congrats!!

I bet this feels awesome !!!

man you have no idea how many times i have almost given up on this refrigerant
it has been a real challenge

but you are bang on i am very pleased:D

thanks

[bazx]

here is a suicide shot from tonight not an oc just off the multi

http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=528459


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/loaded/cpuz.gif

[tiborrr]

Holy smoke, bazx. This is a real accomplishment!

Hats off to you, sir! :up:

[sdumper]

here is a suicide shot from tonight not an oc just off the multi

http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=528459


http://www.benchtec.co.uk/images/baz/cascade6/cpev/loaded/cpuz.gif

Thats awesome I want a Phenom II so bad right now but the wife is already having fits about my tool purchases :)

[piotres]

I guess CPEV do it's work, am I right ? :p:

Nice numbers :clap:.

Can You compare how many *C You gain after swap from modded tev to cpev (idle/load) ?

Does CPEV used with R14 needs frequent tuning ?

Regards
Peter

[bazx]

I guess CPEV do it's work, am I right ? :p:

Nice numbers :clap:.

Can You compare how many *C You gain after swap from modded tev to cpev (idle/load) ?

Does CPEV used with R14 needs frequent tuning ?

Regards
Peter

i must say peter the cpev solution to my R14 problems is by far the best

and i do have a working cascade now @-122

[runmc]

Great job bazx!!;) You are an inspiration. :clap:

I'm guessing you used tes2 with 02 orifice on first stage and a tes2 with 00 (future change to 01) orifice on second with a cpev on third.
Was second stage a tes2? I know you said tev for r23, which a tes2 isn't.

[bazx]

hi ron

tevs used

TES 2 danfoss (02 orifice) R404,TEB2 danfoss (01 orifice) R23 (from Cold_ice), cpev R14(from piotres)


data on TEB 2

http://hr.refrignet.danfoss.com/RA/Products/ProductCatalogue.asp?BA=&Division=RC&HL=5&CodeNo=068Z3074&AppID=%7B8A6F63C1-F2A6-4D0D-BEDE-881715354E89%7D&selectedTab=IN

cold_ice shop

http://www.kaeltetechnik-shop.at/Expansionsventil-TEB-2-068Z3074-MOP-55C-Danfoss_1




i put the 01 in the TEB2 last night so will be vacuuming down today and testing

will let ya know how that went

[runmc]

hi ron

tevs used

TES 2 danfoss (02 orifice) R404,TEB2 danfoss (01 orifice) R23 (from Cold_ice), cpev R14(from piotres)


data on TEB 2

http://hr.refrignet.danfoss.com/RA/Products/ProductCatalogue.asp?BA=&Division=RC&HL=5&CodeNo=068Z3074&AppID=%7B8A6F63C1-F2A6-4D0D-BEDE-881715354E89%7D&selectedTab=IN

cold_ice shop

http://www.kaeltetechnik-shop.at/Expansionsventil-TEB-2-068Z3074-MOP-55C-Danfoss_1




i put the 01 in the TEB2 last night so will be vacuuming down today and testing

will let ya know how that went

Any news on 01 orifice results for the TEB2?:)

Would you have still used the 02 orifice in the TES2 if you were using r507 :yepp:

[bazx]

Would you have still used the 02 orifice in the TES2 if you were using r507


yes i think i would ron

with the 02 orifice whist i have lost some temps with this one it has given me an us-shakeable 1st stage @ -37

the 01 is in the 2nd stage now which has lead to a rise in temp also -73 but again this is now very stable

the knock on effect of this has been an increase in high pressure in the 3rd stage to 15 bar @ full load with a temp of -125

the unit is now full stable at this temp @ around 250w



i would add that if i looked back i can see some things i would change

1. i would go for cpev on all stages tevs are good but have restricted my refrigerant choices

2.refrigerants: i would use/tryed the following instead of the one i have used

R402 or R507/R170/R14

imo opinion the above would have given me some slack on each stage
and would more then lightly held load on each stage @ lower temp