NCE - Never Cold Enough Results

[sdumper]

The NCE is a beast and is doing everything I could have wanted.

Next hurtle is controling temps on a Cold Bugged CPU....

Currently using 2 - 1/4 inch brass shim and a single sheet of tin foil and still cold bugging at an evap of -130c

[[XC] gomeler]

Need more tinfoil for tinfoil hats and shims :cool: Wish I wasn't busy today, could drop off one of the DQ6's, they at least read down to -80C or so. Once you get a working k-type reader though you can just ram a probe up against the IHS and you'll be set. Should start taking bets on the delta between the IHS and the evap and idle and load :up:

[sdumper]

gomeler;2901001']Need more tinfoil for tinfoil hats and shims :cool: Wish I wasn't busy today, could drop off one of the DQ6's, they at least read down to -80C or so. Once you get a working k-type reader though you can just ram a probe up against the IHS and you'll be set. Should start taking bets on the delta between the IHS and the evap and idle and load :up:

Wish I could fine someone local who sold them so i could just pick one up...

[[XC] gomeler]

I'm going to United Refrigeration in about 45 minutes, need to mail out my HD3850 and Jake's DICE pot(thanks man!) and then I'll run up to UR. I'll see what they have in stock or what they have local and then I'll give you a buzz. Might be able to get my buddies to cut the price down, sometimes they help me out.

[n00b 0f l337]

Okay, if no load is on your always going to hit that evap temp and quick, I would suggest turning on the computer running at something easy, or even stock with pre tweaked bios settings, once your in the way to windows boot up the third stage. Have F@H qued for as soon as you hit windows as you should be nearing coldbug in the way the third pulls down. From there pop into benching. Really shouldn't need shims I don't think, however for Superpi yes, try 4-5 layers of tin foil with no TIM maybe.

[sdumper]

gomeler;2901186']I'm going to United Refrigeration in about 45 minutes, need to mail out my HD3850 and Jake's DICE pot(thanks man!) and then I'll run up to UR. I'll see what they have in stock or what they have local and then I'll give you a buzz. Might be able to get my buddies to cut the price down, sometimes they help me out.

sweet...im also checking locally to see if I can pick up an e8500...

[n00b 0f l337]

Should try and get one of those celeron's too, the non coldbugging ones. or a 661.

[Renegade5399]

I have some of those Celly's en route to me. I will gladly send a couple down to GA.

[[XC] gomeler]

I'd call up Fry's and Microcenter but I think the E8500 is in short supply. I wonder how cheap an X6800 would be.. :p: Heading out the door now, will call in an hour or so.

[sdumper]

Okay folding 4 cores seems to keep me from cold bugging.
I was able to fold 4 cores at a very modest 5ghz for 30 minutes with an evap reading -130c. :eek: :clap: :yepp:

I shut it down though because my high side fill line on the 3rd stage froze up and it also froze the oil line. This was the first time i have left the 3rd stage on and it scared me a bit because it was smoking (condensation) very heavy because that is a hot area.:confused:

[Moc]

Hehe, that sounds good :) What parts start to smoke? You should add there much insulation .
@NOL
How can the oil return line freeze? Do you add R290 for oil transport?
@Scott
If you have caps on the fill port / schrader valve, there is no problem when it freeze.

[sdumper]

It freezes because its routed right next to the 3rd stage high fill port so when that freezes it chills the oil line.

[n00b 0f l337]

Wait wait, so where was there ice? On the temprite oil separator? Shouldnt be...
Okay folding 4 cores seems to keep me from cold bugging.
I was able to fold 4 cores at a very modest 5ghz for 30 minutes with an evap reading -130c.
Booyaaa ;)

[sdumper]

yes it scared me because I heard a fizzle and then saw it freeze almost instantly...

here is the area where the freeze occured...note its not frozen in this pict but all the cap tub froze up...

[n00b 0f l337]

Hahaha thats just fine, and that cap is actually the second stage low side :)
Thats all good indeed. :) Assuming no insane fall in CPU temps at third stage it wasn't an oil freeze or anything, simply some colder oil or something heading back through. Or just a bit of pressure release through the float. No r290 in the third stage though.

[sdumper]

what color is the oil? Is it red and would it harden like glue if it was exposed to air?

never mind...i looked at an old pict and it was always there...no clue what it is but its red, hard and stuck on some of the captube...

[Sam__]

-130... wow. nice one. shame about the cold bug. :(

[Cpt.Planet]

lol the hard red stuff is loctite

[n00b 0f l337]

Hahaha probably just a drip from the gauges ;)

[sdumper]

cool...

[n00b 0f l337]

How goes it? I cant wait to see some oc's.

[sdumper]

Not soo good i had my vCore set at 1.75 but because it wont boot under -62c evap I booted a few times at -50c and now it wont overclock at a vcore greater than stock....

Im hoping the board is wet and needs to dryout....otherwise I killed a very expensive OEM chip...

[[XC] gomeler]

If the chip boots it usually is ok. 1.75v at -1xx C also won't kill the chip without days/weeks of operation. I saw the loctite on there earlier, no sense trying to remove it as you could potentially loosen the seal.

I went to United an hour ago and priced all out all the expensive bits and pieces I need. The only k type reader they had was the Fluke 52 at $245, not worth your money. There's a few on ebay right now, if you are patient you can get one for half that cost.

Hope the board is just wet and the chip is safe and sound. Glad to hear the F@H is working also, just set it to open on boot of Windows and you'll be straight.

[n00b 0f l337]

People have put 1.75 thru much warmer temps dont worry.

[[XC] gomeler]

People have put 1.75 thru much warmer temps dont worry.

*looks at self* Mine is still alive :up:

[sdumper]

board was wet....drying and then im back at it :)

[sdumper]

Slowly but surely im getting closer to being able to work around the cold bug and bench this puppy!!

[[XC] gomeler]

Saweet. Working on another enclosure/mount to help combat the condensation issues. Combining things learned from the old and new chilly1 mounts, hopefully it'll turn out according to plan and be much easier to form a vapor seal.

[n00b 0f l337]

Nice any pics?

[sdumper]

Nice any pics?


Sadly no I have a sdram reader in my wifes dell e510 but Chris and I harvested the cpu to try a prescott and I havent put it back together yet.

I will post screen shots for what its worth :(

[n00b 0f l337]

See I have that same damn problem, I use my printer to read camera, it takes forever and i end up turning on and off on and off on and off to get it to load stick.

[[XC] gomeler]

Should have left you my SDHC card reader, I want to see results! :p:

[sdumper]

No results to see I cant run anything without coldbugging except wprime.

I used to love my QX9650 and now I really wish I had my ES QX6700...

[n00b 0f l337]

I would really try tin foiling.

[Buckeye]

Oh your going to put your QX9650 under the Ice with this Monster ?

This thing sounds soooo Extreme Ha !!

I love the frozen computer pic's :)

[[XC] gomeler]

I would really try tin foiling.

Agreed. I'd go with a ton of sheets. Go for 10 sheets and see what it yields.

[sdumper]

I know this is trivial but its a pain in the butt to shut down the 3rd stage when I get close to -110 and then restart before I hit -85c all the while trying to get off screen shots and setfsb but here is the first of many....

http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=342143


I can wprime this to completion at -120c evap (i think) at least I know I can go 85% through the test at this speed because I was doing that when I SetFSB to 5.4ghz and crashed lol

[[XC] gomeler]

We'll set you up with a bunch of 20 amp switches and a nice panel :up: I'd say just regular single pull single throw light switches will work? 1 for each stage, 1 for the fans + thermometer.

Does anyone have any experience using resistors against the backside of the evaporator to help manage evap temps? Wondering if a small variac with two resistors and a thermal cutout could be embedded inside a custom insulated enclosure. Trying to think outside the box here on how to make the use as easy as possible.

[sdumper]

gomeler;2902725']We'll set you up with a bunch of 20 amp switches and a nice panel :up: I'd say just regular single pull single throw light switches will work? 1 for each stage, 1 for the fans + thermometer.

Does anyone have any experience using resistors against the backside of the evaporator to help manage evap temps? Wondering if a small variac with two resistors and a thermal cutout could be embedded inside a custom insulated enclosure. Trying to think outside the box here on how to make the use as easy as possible.

Awesome Chris that would be really cool...

I can go higher but im still taking baby steps...

http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=342168 The temp i think was -105c for the cpuz shot because i tend to cold bug when i hit -110c so I have been shutting off the cooling at -100c and it will then drop to -110c before the temp starts to slowly rise. So what I have been doing is benching with the 3rd stage off between -110c and -85c and then turn the 3rd stage back on before it gets too warm... needless to say its been a very fun challenge :)


Wprime shot at 55% and 5.28 ( http://www.blazingpc.com/forum/showpost.php?p=135996&postcount=98) so im pretty sure once i find a cold/oc balance I can got a decent bit higher.

[sdumper]

And here is a wprime at 5287 88% complete and holding -131c evap....

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z294/sdumper/100_0532.jpg

[kayl]

nice, ya gonna have to get a E8500 or the newer QX9650/QX9770 that have the -140 cold bug.
Good to see the cascade finally in action and holding some nice temps

[sdumper]

nice, ya gonna have to get a E8500 or the newer QX9650/QX9770 that have the -140 cold bug.
Good to see the cascade finally in action and holding some nice temps

Do you know what stepping and month...


yep and then hope this doesnt happen :eek:

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z294/sdumper/IMG_2047.jpg

[mytekcontrols]

Hi Scott --- Looks like your house is the coldest place on Earth :up:

How many watts you running at when doing -143C?

[tiborrr]

I think this cascade should be renamed to ACE - Already Cold Enough :ROTF:

Besides, i wouldn't juggle around with coldplate, they aren't very good for benching, for suicide shots perhaps, but not for benching. Put your resources and energy into finding a new chip with lower coldbug temperature.

Stop dishonoring this NCE cascade with adopting it to weak chips :up:

[frupert]

Yeah dumper mine doesn't cold bug till around -140 i think thats what kayl is talking about, but i think mine is a L749A? Its really recent i haven't seen anyone else with this chip...

Also what board are you using? I think maybe it could be the Maximus cold bugging you at those temps, maybe see if you can borrow a Blackop's to test :)

[Cpt.Planet]

Yeah dumper mine doesn't cold bug till around -140 i think thats what kayl is talking about, but i think mine is a L749A? Its really recent i haven't seen anyone else with this chip...

Also what board are you using? I think maybe it could be the Maximus cold bugging you at those temps, maybe see if you can borrow a Blackop's to test :)

Theres only I think 3-4 BlackOps in the US at the moment. All in the north east of america.


Looking good Sdumper. Maybe try getting a new chip that you know isn't cold bugged and try another board that doesnt have a cbb issue.

[kayl]

Do you know what stepping and month...

edit: frupert typed as i did and beat me damit
i know fruperts QX9650 L749A922 does -140c cold bug in windows, and boots fine at -150c.
T_M's Qx9770 was cold bugginh at -140c. coud ask him for the stepping.
My E850 is a week 740A runs fine at -140c ;)

[sdumper]

Yeah dumper mine doesn't cold bug till around -140 i think thats what kayl is talking about, but i think mine is a L749A? Its really recent i haven't seen anyone else with this chip...

Also what board are you using? I think maybe it could be the Maximus cold bugging you at those temps, maybe see if you can borrow a Blackop's to test :)

Maximus Extreme-->DDR3 board

I really hate to sell the chip because I paid full retail price on 11/1 but it seems like I might need to consider a sale and try and purchase a replacement.

[sdumper]

Maximus Extreme-->DDR3 board

I really hate to sell the chip because I paid full retail price on 11/1 but it seems like I might need to consider a sale and try and purchase a replacement.


Whats a used QX9650 going for these days? Will it fetch $800.00?

[phelan1777]

No results to see I cant run anything without coldbugging except wprime.

I used to love my QX9650 and now I really wish I had my ES QX6700...

I will trade you a QX6700 for the QX9650 :P.

phillyboy and Cpt.planet had this chip under LN2 (not sure if NoL was there for that) and it hit 4.2:shrug:

No idea how it would do under Phase.

Its lapped if that means anything regarding Phase.

[sdumper]

I had my old ES QX6700 at 4.7 its the one in my sig :)

What I think I will do is sell my QX9650 for 800.00 and then buy a full priced retail QX9650 or QX9770 that way im only out a few hundred bones.

[Jack]

Running a pretty deep vacuum there, at -143* C.
Impressive stuff :D

And here is a wprime at 5287 88% complete and holding -131c evap....
Didn't even notice this. Still holding -131* C at load!
r14 is -128* C at 1 bar, wasn't it?

[n00b 0f l337]

Actually not so much ;)
Boils at -124C remember.

[Jack]

That's a difference of 19* C! I wouldn't call that nothing...
And even holding a load in vacuum. Nice work :D

[n00b 0f l337]

Its quite insanely cold liquid at that point. We've done -60C unloaded singles that run r290 even. 20C yes its a lot to hold load, however the compressors still happy as all heck and gets plenty of cooling. Discharge temps are low :)

[phelan1777]

My question is this, @ that temp, what would happen to the skin upon contact, I mean the immediate effects of the cells and then prolonged contact?

[Jack]

I'm impressed that it still has so much cooling capacity at that temp and pressure.
I know rotaries can handle those kind of pressures. I've seen other cascades running in a vacuum. And those crazy rotary SS by Piotres.

Other question. Got a AutoC in the works with r14? I would definitly like to see some xtreme autocascades being build by people, other than Mytek of Cryotek.

[n00b 0f l337]

One sec let me upload the picture.
EDIT: Oh and not really, took my full pound of r14 to get to that basically.

http://www.thewiltedrose.net/adam/Phase%20Projects%2008/Secrets/DSC03154.JPG
Here ya go, had mount in my hand as I turned on third, within a few seconds I was stuck, and pulled off, was -148C at that time (was still charging), and took skin n no blood came up though. This was quite a while ago.

[sdumper]

Brrr .....


http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=342534

vCore is -1.72 real so I might add a little bit because it locked up when I tried 424 x 13...

[n00b 0f l337]

Holy cow.

[[XC] gomeler]

Looking good Scott. 5.4GHz at 1.72v is pretty good. Is it stable for anything beyond Screenshots?

[sdumper]

gomeler;2904521']Looking good Scott. 5.4GHz at 1.72v is pretty good. Is it stable for anything beyond Screenshots?


I can do a superpi i think but its a battle because too warm...not good and too cold I cold bug....

[gosmeyer]

Nice big numbers:up: real big

[sdumper]

Thanks...

I am going to be replacing the current chip soon with a more cold tolerant one so i can run the NCE full out with no holds barred :)

I just need to make sure I get a new rev so i dont get stuck with the same issue.

[killermiller]

When newer chips out there aren't cold bugged?

[[XC] gomeler]

The C1 stepping of the QX9650 and QX9770 from what I can tell aren't suffering the coldbug and coldbootbug issues of the C0 stepping. If this is true it'll greatly simplify benching on the NCE. I don't know what Wolfdale variants are suspect to CB and CBB, I just know my one E8400 could boot just fine at -80C. I suppose asking other E8400 dry ice and ln2 benchers would yield more data to see if there is a trend. I wonder what Intel did to the silicon to get it to be more resistant to cold. Different capacitors perhaps?

[Cpt.Planet]

CBB is supposidly caused by the cpu telling the board it is overheating therefor it shuts it down and wont boot.

[sdumper]

Has anyone confirmed the c1 stepping does not have the issue and also where they can be purchased?

[mytekcontrols]

Absolutely incredible performance out of that cascade. Scott I don't think you'll ever need something better.
:YIPPIE:
Adam... I think you just lost a customer ;)

[sdumper]

So how sure are folks that this C1 stepping is cold bug free?

"The first 45nm 3.0GHz Core 2 Extreme QX9650 CPU is set to undergo a few updates as Intel is preparing a new stepping for later this quarter. Planned to be available from March 3rd on, the C1 stepping CPUs will feature new SSPEC and MM numbers and a new CPUID - 0x00010677. The rest of the specifications of the C1 stepping remain unchanged from C0, but motherboard makers will still have to release new BIOS versions in order to support it."

[boshuter]

Brrr .....


http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=342534

vCore is -1.72 real so I might add a little bit because it locked up when I tried 424 x 13...

Scott, you need to feed that cpu some vcore. If you put a load on it, the big cold bug problem may go away, try booting at 1.9v+ so we can see just how it's going to handle a load.

Those numbers are almost identical to my E8400 at -70c on dice.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/boshuter/lga%20660/bobbys%20build/P5K/54ghz.jpg

[sdumper]

Scott, you need to feed that cpu some vcore. If you put a load on it, the big cold bug problem may go away, try booting at 1.9v+ so we can see just how it's going to handle a load.

Those numbers are almost identical to my E8400 at -70c on dice.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/boshuter/lga%20660/bobbys%20build/P5K/54ghz.jpg

1.9 on a 45nm :eek:

No seriously I would but it wont boot colder than -62c evap so im concerned of toasting my CPU...

I will try 1.8 though...

[boshuter]

1.9 on a 45nm :eek:

No seriously I would but it wont boot colder than -62c evap so im concerned of toasting my CPU...

I will try 1.8 though...

Ouch.... thats a serious cold bug if it won't even boot at -62 :(

1.9v isn't uncommon on 45nm ;)

[frupert]

Time to change motherboard on that Scott, try see where that CBB goes...

[jimmyz]

hold the phone, if CBB is really the chip telling the board it is overheating couldn't you block the pins with tape or something so the signal wouldn't get there?
I always assumed it was a chip issue. as in the chip crashed like when unstable.

[[XC] gomeler]

hold the phone, if CBB is really the chip telling the board it is overheating couldn't you block the pins with tape or something so the signal wouldn't get there?
I always assumed it was a chip issue. as in the chip crashed like when unstable.

That's the confusing bit. My QX9650 will boot just fine down to -80C or so, a few times it booted at -110C to -90C. I don't know if it's a board issue or a chip issue though. I always thought it was simply the chip being unstable upon startup, even though it doesn't make much sense.

edit: as for roasting the chip, these chips seem to be pretty resilient. I was doing some testing yesterday on a thin pot(that I need to return *doh*) and it would go from -75C to -35C in a flash in 3D06. This was 4.9GHz and 1.65v though but they seem to hold up really well. Don't hear many reports of dead chips but perhaps the owners don' sound off about it.

[sdumper]

I ran 1.8 vcore on Friday before i left to go out of town and will post the results when i get home Sunday night. that said 5.6 was not difficult to hit...

[n00b 0f l337]

Oh man thats insane.

[runmc]

NOL - It looks like you did a great job :yepp: good work buddy :clap:

[n00b 0f l337]

Thanks Ron! Your always an inspiration yourself, so don't think in some way you didn't create this monster ;) Your as much responsible for this as the young frankenstein ;)

[before]

I ran 1.8 vcore on Friday before i left to go out of town and will post the results when i get home Sunday night. that said 5.6 was not difficult to hit...

Time to show some screenies dude! :p: You can really push up your vCORE further; of course it depends on your chip, but 1.8v is quite low for 3-stage cooling. ;)

With my first QX9650 I can easily set 1.95vCORE loaded under my 2-stager. With my former 3-stager, I've used 1.98v+ with 2nd stage oil valve manually opened to decrease evap temperature because of cold-bug.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2694500&postcount=83

[TheKarmakazi]

Glad to hear your benchin in high style sdumper!! Lets see those screenies tonight!!!

[sdumper]

My only concern is the warm temps on boot.

Im hoping that setting vcore to 1.80 real and booting at -62 wont cause any issues. It doesnt hit shut down until -110 so I have some time to run a cpuz and kick off a wprime without the chip getting too stretched. Ihope to have another QX9650 to work with soon...

Regardless Ill give this chip a try in a few...


Well after 5 restarts due to cold shutdown I am going to add a shim back and go back at it...

[sdumper]

Well I ran my vcore up to 1.9 and cant seem to hit the targets I had in mind.
I will try a few other boards and then look for some new chips because I am not able to utilize all the cold at my disposal with the current CPU combo I am using.

E.G. Maximus extreme (DDR3) and QX9650 initial release.