NaeKuh's RD30 on the test bench

[Martinm210]

This test is brought to you by NaeKuh, thanks for loaning me the beast for some quick tests..:clap:

Expect to see a flow meter pegged and my new 20.00 psi manometer to be challenged...:D

Before I do...what voltage runs would you guys like to see? I can see it will already run at 12V just fine.

I'm thinking:

12V, 15V, 18V, 21V, and 24V?

Anything else?

Test Bench:
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/8086/rd301jg0.jpg

A quick maximum head test...14.66PSI anyone?..:eek:
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/3217/rd302ed9.jpg

Running to get the worm drive clamps before it's shower time...:D

Alright I've got the preliminary results posted, still working on getting a video in there:
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/Iwaki-RD-30-Pump-Review.html

Here is the 24V curve, I have all the others as well on the site:
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/IwakiRD30PQ-24v.png

[NaeKuh]

ROFL! dont blow up your bench martin!!! That would be bad, also hard to explain to the wife how your wood work got all wet!

[iandh]

Man, I hope there aren't any non water-friendly wife-angering type things outside the frame... of course it doesn't look like that piece of tubing on the outlet is exactly just gonna fall off; it's shaped like an hourglass! :D Bet that was fun...

[[XC] Kayin]

Much as I'm interested in these results, I'm kinda worried about that manometer...

[NaeKuh]

blah i can already guess that theres no way dual DDC-3.2 /w XSPC res's will catch the RD-30.

Guess its going back in the main once i get it back.

[Martinm210]

blah i can already guess that theres no way dual DDC-3.2 /w XSPC res's will catch the RD-30.

Guess its going back in the main once i get it back.

Yeah, there's no stopping this monster at 24V. Duall DDC is really strong, but not quite. And no fear for the woodworking gear, this is my test bench in my office with all my electronics.

I better go hide the camera gear..:D

Testing to be continued tomorrow...let me know if there is any particulars you'd like to see:up:

[NaeKuh]

oh martin did you see if that that little piece of tubing between the res, and meter at the inlet side, cavitated or not @ MAX setting?

Ive had thin wall tygon collapse on me b4.

[csjsi]

This is like the night before X-mas:D

[ArtosDracon]

I KNEW IT!!!!!

Can it run below 12v or is that the basic minimum for the pump? Kinda makes my danner look like a wimp, lol.

[WoodButcher]

While your doing all this testing, have you any way to measure noise levels?

[afX]

Jesus, I'm sitting here in university to get a glimpse of things in the morning, and this shows up; gave me hard nipples in a heartbeat. :D

[Martinm210]

While your doing all this testing, have you any way to measure noise levels?

I do, but I'm finding with these really low noise levels it's pretty hard to measure. You almost need some sort of sound room because the ambient noise is too much. At 12V the noise level goes from 50db ambient to 53db with the pump on.

The pump is alot quieter than I thought.

I'm also going to ask one of our hydraulics engineers at work about adding in suction head to pump testing. I've been trying to get resolution on my testing method and not finding what I want. In water cooling with a closed loop you get the benefit or pumping power from both sides of the pump because it's the net pressure "Differece" or "Pressure Gain" if you want to call it that, that's making the water move. But in open pumping systems, alot of times you're just trying to move fluids from one point to another and often pushing is the only thing of interest, so I'm thinking it may be more standard to only measure pressure at the exit. I'll try to see what I can find, I'm sure there is some sort of hydraulic pump testing standard somewhere.

I'll find out, I suppose I could also just label my new combined pressure gain graphs with "pressure gain (outlet - inlet pressure)" or something like that. This could be part of the reason some flow rate results are higher because that suction side of the pump is added pumping power when it comes to recirculating closed loop systems like we have in water cooling.:shrug:

[The[R]eaper]

man, this makes me wanna get one.:rolleyes:

[ArtosDracon]

I do, but I'm finding with these really low noise levels it's pretty hard to measure. You almost need some sort of sound room because the ambient noise is too much. At 12V the noise level goes from 50db ambient to 53db with the pump on.

The pump is alot quieter than I thought.

I'm also going to ask one of our hydraulics engineers at work about adding in suction head to pump testing. I've been trying to get resolution on my testing method and not finding what I want. In water cooling with a closed loop you get the benefit or pumping power from both sides of the pump because it's the net pressure "Differece" or "Pressure Gain" if you want to call it that, that's making the water move. But in open pumping systems, alot of times you're just trying to move fluids from one point to another and often pushing is the only thing of interest, so I'm thinking it may be more standard to only measure pressure at the exit. I'll try to see what I can find, I'm sure there is some sort of hydraulic pump testing standard somewhere.

I'll find out, I suppose I could also just label my new combined pressure gain graphs with "pressure gain (outlet - inlet pressure)" or something like that. This could be part of the reason some flow rate results are higher because that suction side of the pump is added pumping power when it comes to recirculating closed loop systems like we have in water cooling.:shrug:

I was actually just wondering about that looking at your manometer. So all of you pump pressure results are actually the delta of pressure between the inlet and outlet sides of the pump. That could explain why the tops with built in reservoirs did measurably better in your ddc3.2 shootout as the inlet pressure would have been dropped due to the extra mass of water in the reservoir. With your black reservoir, is it sealed or open air?

[FuriousSalesman]

Can I ask what kind of Auxiliary power supply you are using? I have an RD30 paired with a Meanwell 210W-24V powersupply. I was wondering how much voltage an auxiliary power supply puts out at the lowest setting.

[karbonkid]

Can't wait for the results of another 'on the test bench' - It's like waiting for the next episode of a favourite TV program :)

[NaeKuh]

Can I ask what kind of Auxiliary power supply you are using? I have an RD30 paired with a Meanwell 210W-24V powersupply. I was wondering how much voltage an auxiliary power supply puts out at the lowest setting.

he said my meanwell wasnt good enough for him! LOL..

He's not using my meanwell tho if your wondering. I sent him a S150-24.

But the 24V meanwells have a lower cap of around 15-17V. You wont hit the 12V off a 24V meanwell. Also you really dont want it at 12V unless your running almost free flowing. 18V is the sweet spot for this pump. Then the next step is 21V im guessing. 24V is just too much overkill as martin shown you guys.

[Boogerlad]

how do you convert psi to head pressure in feet?

[NaeKuh]

how do you convert psi to head pressure in feet?

Sorry you tempted me too much by posting this question: [dont take any offense to it] i wanted to post this pic for a very long time.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/bartgoogle7ai.gif


Google is your best friend: :up:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pump-head-pressure-d_663.html

SG - Water. fresh = 1

Or you can use there calculator on the left section and 14.66psi = 33.9ft.

14.66 pound/square inch = 33.815 617 082 646 foot of head to be exact using synxx's calculator.

[Snyxxx]

This is even easier.

http://www.onlineconversion.com/pressure.htm

[IanY]

Is there anything else left to debate about ?

[Martinm210]

I was actually just wondering about that looking at your manometer. So all of you pump pressure results are actually the delta of pressure between the inlet and outlet sides of the pump. That could explain why the tops with built in reservoirs did measurably better in your ddc3.2 shootout as the inlet pressure would have been dropped due to the extra mass of water in the reservoir. With your black reservoir, is it sealed or open air?

No, all of my previous testing was conducted measuring total "DISCHARGE" head only, with the thought that it was the standard convention to do so. Previously I only tested the discharge side and zeroed out the manometer to eliminate static pressure created by the loop. But as I found today, that's not the right way, you should actually test both sides and measure a pressure difference just like I have been doing on pressure drop tests.

I talked with my region hydraulics engineer about testing proceedures for pumps and what "Head" typically represents in pump characteristic curves and he really couldn't answer. Apparently I'm alot more into pumps than he has needed to, even though I'm more of a highway guy:shrug: . Alot of pumping applications in the real world are moving water from one elevation to another, so discharge head is the performance measure you'd be most interested in.

All of the past watercooling pump tests I've seen have been of the discharge pressure test type only, so I followed suit assuming anything on the inlet side would be negligible if care was taken to minimize tubing length and creating a nice large barbed flush reservoir inlet that any loss on the suction side wouldn't matter.

Then with my recent DDC shootout, the apparent reservoir advantage bothered me a little, I didn't expect that. So I started thinking about what's going on at the suction side, and thought about the couple of instances of collapsed suction line tubes I've seen over time.

For a recirculating system like we have in water cooling, it's not so much the pressure that matters, it's the pressure difference that's the driving force behind fluid moving. It became clear to me that for our needs measuring pressure difference in pump testing is also important for accurately predicting flow rates because you gain benefits from both sides even though it's fairly small on the inlet side.

After enough digging through several of my engineerinng manuals and searching the net, I'm fairly certain now that what you typically see represented as "Head" in a pump performance curve mease "Total Head" or "Total Dynamic Head".

Here is a great online reference:
http://www.gouldspumps.com/cpf_0002.html

Total Dynamic Head does equal the Total Dynamic "Discharge" head - the Total Dynamic "Suction" head.

TOTAL DYNAMIC SUCTION HEAD (hs) is the static suction head plus the velocity head at the pump suction flange minus the total friction head in the suction line. The total dynamic suction head, as determined on pump test, is the reading of the gauge on the suction flange, converted to feet of liquid and corrected to the pump centerline*, plus the velocity head at the point of gauge attachment.

TOTAL DYNAMIC DISCHARGE HEAD (hd) is the static discharge head plus the velocity head at the pump discharge flange plus the total friction head in the discharge line. The total dynamic discharge head, as determined on pump test, is the reading of a gauge at the discharge flange, converted to feet of liquid and corrected to the pump centerline*, plus the velocity head at the point of gauge attachment.

TOTAL HEAD (H) or TOTAL Dynamic HEAD (TDH) is the total dynamic discharge head minus the total dynamic suction head or


There is also this document on pump test proceedures where they outline measuring pressure on both sides of a pump to calculate negative and postotive suction head.

http://www.gouldspumps.com/pag_0022.html

http://www.gouldspumps.com/download_files/pump_fundamentals/sec_b5_fig1.gif

I found several other sources of the definition of total dynamic head that were also consistent in this definition of measure both sides.

So...with that. All of the water cooling pump testing that I've done and have seen done were all a mesurement of "Discharge Head" vs. Flow rate, and would be provide less performance than you really get.

I ran one curve yesterday of both ways, and it does make a difference. It's also clear to me now the proper method is to test both sides.

I suspect all of the comparisons of tops will have similar relative rankings with possibly the exception of the reservoirs. They may not have as much of an advantage over the regular tops as the "Discharge Head" comparisons indicated.

Learn something new every day..:up: Unfortunately that means I get more practice now in redoing some of my old tests..:(

[starlon]

One thing that I don't see much of is noise measurements.

[NaeKuh]

One thing that I don't see much of is noise measurements.

if you can absorb all its vibration, the thing is quiet.

If you put it on a hard flat surface, the thing will moon walk.

If you bolt it in a light case and blast it on high, the case will run away from you. :rofl: j/k but the case will vibrate a ton.

How i mount it. Layer of petra gell stuff, then a 3m sponge, the kind you wipe counters with. And then i bolt it. Works fairly well. The entire silver area is metal and a casing. There is no breathable parts required at the bottom. Its all one piece of metal. The pictures martin has of it is on its side. That big bulging part you see at the end is one of the attached bases.

Actually, Martin can you show it off with your nice camera so everyone knows what im talking about?


Also the only real data i want to know is the heat dumped by the pump @ 18V 21V 24V but i think thats gonna be too hard so its okey. Martin if you want to open the chamber go ahead.


EDIT: Oh snap martin did a side mount break in transit? :\ or is your camera playing funny tricks?

EDIT2: Blah, oh wellz, a foot did break off it. Stupid UPS.

[Martinm210]

Alright I've got the preliminary results posted, still working on getting a video in there:
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/Iwaki-RD-30-Pump-Review.html

Here is the 24V curve, I have all the others as well on the site:
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/IwakiRD30PQ-24v.png

[nikhsub1]

Nice, but Martin IM BEGGING YOU to put units in mH2O! Feet h20 is meaningless.

[NaeKuh]

"Next is the 21.0V. Pressure at 1.5GPM now running at about 10 PSI, which is getting way up there and similar to dual DDCs in series. Efficiency now peaks around 3.25 GPM, which is a bit higher that you'll see in water cooling for most cases. This means the pump just isn't operating at it's most efficient point. As a result of slipping down the efficiency curve power consumption climbs to 40 watts at 1.5GPM. This setting may still prove to me a good spot for extremely restrictive highly nozzled blocks on systems with large radiators. "


Geeze this sounds like dejavu.

Martin u gotta admit i nailed the top max voltage. :D

Didnt i tell you for some wierd reason i lost performance at a higher point then this setting. :rofl:

"I would recommend oversizing your radiator capacity if you intend to run higher voltage settings as upwards of 50watts of pump heat can really make diminishing returns on flow apparent sooner than you'd think"

If you can afford an RD-30, you can afford a PA120.3 :rofl: . :P

[Martinm210]

"Next is the 21.0V. Pressure at 1.5GPM now running at about 10 PSI, which is getting way up there and similar to dual DDCs in series. Efficiency now peaks around 3.25 GPM, which is a bit higher that you'll see in water cooling for most cases. This means the pump just isn't operating at it's most efficient point. As a result of slipping down the efficiency curve power consumption climbs to 40 watts at 1.5GPM. This setting may still prove to me a good spot for extremely restrictive highly nozzled blocks on systems with large radiators. "


Geeze this sounds like dejavu.

Martin u gotta admit i nailed the top max voltage. :D

Didnt i tell you for some wierd reason i lost performance at a higher point then this setting. :rofl:

"I would recommend oversizing your radiator capacity if you intend to run higher voltage settings as upwards of 50watts of pump heat can really make diminishing returns on flow apparent sooner than you'd think"

If you can afford an RD-30, you can afford a PA120.3 :rofl: . :P

Yep, I was using part of what you told me in there.. Nothing you didn't already know:up:

BTW, I just got the video sound recording posted here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7K4FeKXjWg

[Martinm210]

Nice, but Martin IM BEGGING YOU to put units in mH2O! Feet h20 is meaningless.

Ran out of time, my guage reads in PSI, but I could add a column in there, maybe I'll pull the inches of water and make that a meters of water column.

Will you do your thermal testing in Farenheight degrees?

Just kidding....I'll see what I can do. I just need to make myself a template that fills out charts for each..

[nikhsub1]

"Next is the 21.0V. Pressure at 1.5GPM now running at about 10 PSI, which is getting way up there and similar to dual DDCs in series. Efficiency now peaks around 3.25 GPM, which is a bit higher that you'll see in water cooling for most cases. This means the pump just isn't operating at it's most efficient point. As a result of slipping down the efficiency curve power consumption climbs to 40 watts at 1.5GPM. This setting may still prove to me a good spot for extremely restrictive highly nozzled blocks on systems with large radiators. "


Geeze this sounds like dejavu.

Martin u gotta admit i nailed the top max voltage. :D

Didnt i tell you for some wierd reason i lost performance at a higher point then this setting. :rofl:

"I would recommend oversizing your radiator capacity if you intend to run higher voltage settings as upwards of 50watts of pump heat can really make diminishing returns on flow apparent sooner than you'd think"

If you can afford an RD-30, you can afford a PA120.3 :rofl: . :P
Water temp will rise ~2c with an RD 30 and a HE120.3 at 24v vs 18v.

[csjsi]

Is it really that noisy............. How would you say it is compared to a D5.

[Martinm210]

Is it really that noisy............. How would you say it is compared to a D5.

I havn't tried to do the same sound test on a D5 yet, but the pump really isn't that loud, but loudness is such a difficult and subjective thing and a different definition for everyone. I consider a D5 and DDC silent, yet I still see threads about folks that aren't happy with the noise, so it's clear to me it means something different for everyone.

At 12V I think it's probably really close to a D5 and noise increases as voltage increases from there.

I found some decible comparisons and put them on the page next to the decibel readings that may help.

I run a case full of yate loon D12SL12's and I'd bet I'd have a hard time hearing the pump over the fans at all if vibrations are isolatied right especially under 21V or so. When I was testing during the day in my loud house of kids, I couldn't even really hear much until about 21V. But I've got the recording and decibel measurements posted now. The recording should at least give you an idea of the type of sound it makes.:up:

[Snyxxx]

Water temp will rise ~2c with an RD 30 and a HE120.3 at 24v vs 18v.

2°C does not sound too bad if converted to °F:D

[NaeKuh]

2°C does not sound too bad if converted to °F:D

uhhh these are coolant temps synxx, not die/cpu temps. :P

its actually more on the cpu side if you take 2c increase in coolant temps.