110 slipstreams or 88 yates ?

[evil-98]

trying to decided weather or not to get yates.
currently i have 3 slipstreams on my mcr320

specs:
110 CFM @ 1900 RPM @ 37 dBa

it has a decent amount of pressure but are yates better?

specs:
88 CFM @ 2200 RPM @ 40 dBa

higher RPM lower cfm = more pressure? :shrug:

thanks in advanced open to other suggestions

just looking for good 120x120x25 at a decent price

:up:

[Cptn Vortex]

Hmmmm it's a toss up.... I would favor the Scythes, as they have the added surface area, because of the small rotor hub. Personally I would think the added cooling area would be much better for Rads and heatsinks

[Vapor]

On a radiator, it won't even be close. The Yate Loon will be better. It's actually one of the best 120x120x25mm radiator fans and an overall excellent fan.

On the other hand, Slipstreams are not meant for radiators--at all. And the 1900RPM model is also nowhere near 110CFM, probably closer to 75ish or so. Then add to that very high flow loss loss due to an inefficient design for restrictive setups.

*note that the D12SH-12 also does not perform at its rating--also closer to 75CFM in open air, but it has among the best radiator performance for the form factor. Its flow loss in percentage is very similar to good 38mm thick fans.

[NaeKuh]

vapor isnt the zalman the king when it comes to 25mm in static pressure only to be beaten by sanaces which are 38mm?

[Vapor]

Hmmm....time for a mega post from me...give me a few min, I'll put some numbers behind all of this. :)

[evil-98]

Hmmm....time for a mega post from me...give me a few min, I'll put some numbers behind all of this. :)

thank you very much :up:

[Vapor]

Below are numbers detailing CFM loss as a %. The reason I haven't put them up before (other than in my Yate Loon comparo) is because they can be misleading and misused.

The way I see it, the end goal is maximizing airflow at a given noise level (or minimizing noise at a certain airflow level). CFM loss percentage numbers aren't super critical, but they can be interesting.

In this thread, they come up because we're pitting two fans against each other that are VERY different! One is an open-air-only fan (that I haven't tested yet, but the design is obvious after you learn a few things) while the other is a very good overall fan, that actually happens to have excellent radiator performance.

The below numbers are from my testing from my 2nd roundup of fans (posted as a sticky in both the WC section and the Aircooling section). More details (and a lot more data) can be found there.

D12SH-12 curved blade (from PTS)
12V: 23.16% loss
8V: 25.69% loss
5V: 27.29% loss

Zalman F3
12V: 25.96% loss
8V: 27.54% loss
5V: 31.13% loss

S-Flex F
12V: 23.6% loss
8V: 28.63% loss
5V: 41.97% loss (some fans really start choking at lower volts...more on this later...)

S-Flex D
12V: 31.03%
8V: 42.15% loss
7V: 47.39% loss (5V and 6V not tested due to very low RPMs and already being well below the noise floor)

Panaflo U1A
12V: 19.38% loss
8V: 25.91% loss (note at 8V, it has VERY similar open air CFM as the D12SH-12 at 12V ;))
5V: 28.94% loss

SanAce 1011:
12V: 25.69% loss
8V: 29.33% loss
5V: 35.14% loss

Panaflo LH:
12V: 23.37% loss
8V: 26.33% loss
5V: 29.74% loss

Minebea 1900:
12V: 26.81% loss
8V: 31.51% loss
5V: 33.41% loss

Minebea 1100:
12V: 31.82% loss
8V: 36.26% loss
5V: 46.35% loss

Noctua S-series 1200RPM:
12V: 40.07% loss
8V: 43% loss
5V: 50.86% loss

SilenX 74-14:
12V: 37.09% loss
8V: 36.11% loss
5V: 37.66% loss

Okay, some trends and some observations you should make:
1) as voltage decreases, CFM loss tends to go up (e.g., all fans except the SilenX).
2) as RPM decreases with constant voltage (different model #s therefore), CFM loss tends to go up (Minebea 1900->1100, S-Flex F->D, Sharkoon Golfballs also do it (not shown)).

If you look at the sticky, you can see the D12SM-12 and D12SH-12 CFM-loss lines overlapping. From what I can tell, loss is MOSTLY a function of RPM (per fan design). There are some cases where a motor will fall out of its 'comfort' range and begin to perform poorly on a radiator (my S-Flex F at 5V exhibits this--6V and 7V loss numbers aren't nearly as dramatic at the 5V numbers).

The Yate Loon D12SH-12 is VERY good on a radiator! At the same CFM levels as a 38mm thick Panaflo, it loses less CFM through a radiator (noted in the numbers above). Zalman is also pretty good. Interestingly, the San Ace has unusually high CFM loss. It can afford it due to its great open air performance though :)

The Noctua and SilenX were included because they're the most similar to the Slipstreams in terms of overall design. Slipstreams really aren't radiator-friendly. There's a reason why Scythe introduced the for-radiator Ultra Kazes simultaneously :)

Hope that gives some clue as to what I'm talking about here....of course the end result is CFM at a noise level, so this kind of data is NOT the be-all and end-all of data (and why I haven't published it yet), but it does show some trends for fan design and radiator performance compared to open air I think :)

[evil-98]

wow, good reading :up: thanks again

yates it is!

[WoZZeR999]

As always, I love your data filled posts. Sorry, to thread-jack a little, but have you done any tests with loss% between vertical and horizontal? I jumped on the SH band wagon when I had my rad vertical, and since moving it to the top of the case, it seems to do a little worse. Any number of things could be the cause of this in my case, but I know that the sleeve bearings don't like to be laying on their sides. I was just wondering if any testing was done to see if there's a difference in loss or CFM between fan orientation.

[SparkyJJO]

I thought you were wondering about buying 110 slipstreams or 88 yates :eek:

[evil-98]

As always, I love your data filled posts. Sorry, to thread-jack a little, but have you done any tests with loss% between vertical and horizontal? I jumped on the SH band wagon when I had my rad vertical, and since moving it to the top of the case, it seems to do a little worse. Any number of things could be the cause of this in my case, but I know that the sleeve bearings don't like to be laying on their sides. I was just wondering if any testing was done to see if there's a difference in loss or CFM between fan orientation.

that brings up a good point, as i am going to mount the rad on top of a case as well

I thought you were wondering about buying 110 slipstreams or 88 yates :eek:

yea after i posted i was like.. someone is going to think that.. lol o well

[Vapor]

All my tests (or published data at least) were done horizontally. :)

[Polizei]

I thought you were wondering about buying 110 slipstreams or 88 yates :eek:

Oh come on... You haven't looked at fans enough to notice that he was talking about the 110cfm Slipstreams or the 88cfm Yates? ;) :rolleyes: :p:


Maybe I'm the minority Spraks. :shrug:

[evil-98]

All my tests (or published data at least) were done horizontally. :)

thanks for clearing that up :up:

[WoZZeR999]

yea after i posted i was like.. someone is going to think that.. lol o well

That's how I read that too, I would still go with the 88 yates though :P

[SparkyJJO]

Oh come on... You haven't looked at fans enough to notice that he was talking about the 110cfm Slipstreams or the 88cfm Yates? ;) :rolleyes: :p:


Maybe I'm the minority Spraks. :shrug:

I don't make it a habit to memorize CFM numbers :p:

[Vapor]

I don't make it a habit to memorize CFM numbers :p:Boo :p:

[Big_Daddy]

There's a reason why Scythe introduced the for-radiator Ultra Kazes simultaneously :)


Just for clarification, which would be better, The D12SH-12 or the Ultra Kaze? say the 2000 rpm model. For a pa120.3?

[Vapor]

Don't know. Haven't tested any of the Ultra Kazes.

[ArtosDracon]

Don't know. Haven't tested any of the Ultra Kazes.

Do you just not have any? Do you have any slipstreams? If I sent you a pair of each and a pair of evercools I love would you have time to test them?

[septim]

he would test them in his 3rd batch, in a few months time...

of course any fan you sent him (free or loan) for testing would be of great help to him...

op, if horizontal orientation of rad, i would suggest a 3rd choice, SFlex-F fans...
you wont have a problem with the sleeve bearing grind, if i understand this right...

[ArtosDracon]

he would test them in his 3rd batch, in a few months time...

of course any fan you sent him (free or loan) for testing would be of great help to him...

op, if horizontal orientation of rad, i would suggest a 3rd choice, SFlex-F fans...
you wont have a problem with the sleeve bearing grind, if i understand this right...

If he lets me know when he'll be getting around to round three I should be able to send him pairs of those three and for that matter, any other fans I may have laying around. I'd be curious to see what he got on an old 12v industrial fan I have left over from the 80's, It'll run happy all the way to 18v before the motor starts getting warm. It can really push air too, best static pressure of any fan I have in house. The motor housing is almost 2" across though so I'm sure the total cfm is lower.

[JaYp146]

Yeah, Slipstreams aren't the best for rads. Open air, though ... hard to beat. Noise/airflow ratio's one of the best.

[Vapor]

Do you just not have any? Do you have any slipstreams? If I sent you a pair of each and a pair of evercools I love would you have time to test them?Like septim said, 3rd roundup :) Getting fans is actually the easy part for me :p: Unless it's a super-rare fan, I prefer getting them myself that way I can control their lifetime of usage and storage conditions :) And they're just fans, not like $400 GPUs or anything :p:

Thanks though :)

Open air, though ... hard to beat. Noise/airflow ratio's one of the best.I'm sorry, what is this based on? I usually try to keep up with all the reviews about fans, but the Slipstream series hasn't gotten much quality review time yet (or any really) AFAIK.

[JaYp146]

I'm sorry, what is this based on? I usually try to keep up with all the reviews about fans, but the Slipstream series hasn't gotten much quality review time yet (or any really) AFAIK.

SilentPCReview forums. Lots of user reviews have shown them to be excellent without fin or grille obstruction.

[Vapor]

Works for me :)

SPCR and their forums is great in my book :)

EDIT: on the qualification that they're actually testing them...not just listening (which is legit) and trusting CFM numbers (not legit). Slipstream CFM numbers are whack.

[ArtosDracon]

Works for me :)
Slipstream CFM numbers are whack.

I almost feel stupid asking just because you said it but, what's this based on? I use their everything from the 800rpm to the 1900rpm almost religiously because from my experience thus far they're GREAT in open air and don't suck with minor restriction like a filter. I do not have any earnest way of testing their output but, so far with my cheapy radioshack db meter their sound level ratings are very close in open air(not so much as double sided taped to anything).

[Vapor]

Based on the fact that 120x120x25mm fans that do more than .04CFM/RPM in open air are very rare. And the ones that do are barely ~.041-.042CFM/RPM (and they're failures on radiators). Most fans are in the range of .032-.038CFM/RPM. Some go below that, some go above, but not much in either direction.

Scythe is claiming .049CFM/RPM, .050CFM/RPM, .057CFM/RPM, .055CFM/RPM, .058CFM/RPM for the 500, 800, 1200, 1600, and 1900RPM varieties respectively.

The Slipstream design is nothing 'new' or extraordinary, just a design that is open-air favored (to pair with their radiator favored Ultra Kazes). There are a lot of design cues from Noctua S-series and SilenX even (both open-air favoring fans pushing near .04CFM/RPM). Airflow performance will be very predictable, certainly not 25-45% better than other leading open-air fans. Even a great/new design probably won't be more than 5% better than existing open-air fans.

EDIT: Heck, the Minebea design is surprisingly similar to the Slipstream design as well, and they do .0375CFM/RPM, .0397CFM/RPM, and .0399CFM/RPM for their 1100RPM, 1600RPM, and 1900RPM varieties respectively (and as shown a few posts up, have radiator airflow loss greater than other designs [enough so that they actually aren't that great on radiators]).

[ArtosDracon]

Based on the fact that 120x120x25mm fans that do more than .04CFM/RPM in open air are very rare. And the ones that do are barely ~.041-.042CFM/RPM (and they're failures on radiators). Most fans are in the range of .032-.038CFM/RPM. Some go below that, some go above, but not much in either direction.

Scythe is claiming .049CFM/RPM, .050CFM/RPM, .057CFM/RPM, .055CFM/RPM, .058CFM/RPM for the 500, 800, 1200, 1600, and 1900RPM varieties respectively.

The Slipstream design is nothing 'new' or extraordinary, just a design that is open-air favored (to pair with their radiator favored Ultra Kazes). There are a lot of design cues from Noctua S-series and SilenX even (both open-air favoring fans pushing near .04CFM/RPM). Airflow performance will be very predictable, certainly not 25-45% better than other open-air fans. Even a great/new design probably won't be more than 5% better than existing open-air fans.

VERY well said. I have no evidence to the contrary and that seems entirely sensible. You'll let us know in a few months though for sure I suppose. I gotta ask though, assuming they're off by 20% and they all operate right about .04 mark, at ~$9 a fan wouldn't they still be among the best value in open air fans *if* their acoustics are pretty close?

[LockBreaker]

In the beginnig I thought you were going to buy 110 pieces of the Slipstream fans or 88 Yate Loons.... :p:

I got it after some reading.

[Vapor]

VERY well said. I have no evidence to the contrary and that seems entirely sensible. You'll let us know in a few months though for sure I suppose. I gotta ask though, assuming they're off by 20% and they all operate right about .04 mark, at ~$9 a fan wouldn't they still be among the best value in open air fans *if* their acoustics are pretty close?

If they're noise profile is good enough (SPCR seems to think so, so it probably is), and they're right in the .039-.041 range, they should still be very good open air fans. They probably won't be a huge jump up from other fans though (if at all), just the nature of the game.

That said, they're still sleeve bearing, and in the price territory of the Zalman F3 (which is great for both open air and radiator duty), and double the price of Petra's Yates (also great all-duty fans). And if a case fan pushes 1-2% more air than another at the same noise levels, you're not going to see that in your temps, and definitely not in your OC level. Radiator/heatsink fans still have the biggest impact on temps.

IMO, the main selling point of the Slipstreams (assuming they're ultimately very good case fans) is that there's 5 varieties ranging from 500RPM to 1900RPM. No need to deal with undervolting, just buy the right RPM and call it a day.

[Vapor]

[mini rant]
Okay, I may seem anti-Slipstream, but I'm really just trying to balance the hype with practical expectations--I haven't tested the fan and I am willing to accept they're very good fans if the test results say so, but not as good as the ratings--their ratings are just not possible.

Scythe built its reputation on their S-Flex and Minebea lines. Both are GREAT fans.

But now they're straying from what they've built. Abusing it even.

S-Flex is probably my favorite fan on the market--120x120x25mm, non-sleeve, low noise, great for open air and especially great for radiator, good price, readily available in three (soon 4) varieties. Its CFM/dBA ratings are also really realistic and accurate.

Minebea is a fan built for longevity and is a very good fan on top of that. Its MTBF is huge, it runs well, its CFM specs are from NMB-MAT (which must have the same testing equipment as me, my as-tested CFM of their fans is always within 1%, but often within .2% of their claims!), pretty quiet, and also at a good price.

But what they're doing with the Slipstreams is downright wrong. It's almost SilenX-like. Like SilenX, they're blatantly lying on the specs.

SilenX isn't the only one either....Silverstone did it on the FM121/122/123 and FN122, and has been getting away with it--everyone thinks their FM121 is a 110CFM beast when it really pushes a hair over 87CFM and makes a lot more noise than it should. Scythe probably saw these successes in lying and jumped right on the bandwagon. Because it really works.

But it's completely dishonest to the customer--almost worse than what SilenX has done. Every time Scythe has cried wolf, there's been one there. They've rightfully built everyone's trust...

At least with SilenX, every time they cry wolf with a new fan we just put in our earplugs and ignore them--we know they lie and always have. Maybe one day they'll be honest and make a really good, well-rated fan, but we'll probably ignore it then even.

But with the Scythe Slipstreams, Scythe is again crying wolf with a new fan, but for the first time there's no wolf in Scythe's ratings. Yet everyone is rushing to call the Slipstreams the greatest new fan and brag about their CFM, etc. It's just not the reality of the situation.

Scythe basically already makes the best fans out there, so maybe they needed to give people reason to buy new ones...who knows. I don't know their motivation.

I do plan on objectively testing the fans like I do every other popular/readily-available fan. They're at a great price and there's 5 varieties available--so there's tons of potential for them to be great additions to the market. But let's be real about what to expect from them.
[/mini rant]

[LogAn'sRun]

EDIT: Heck, the Minebea design is surprisingly similar to the Slipstream design as well, and they do .0375CFM/RPM, .0397CFM/RPM, and .0399CFM/RPM for their 1100RPM, 1600RPM, and 1900RPM varieties respectively (and as shown a few posts up, have radiator airflow loss greater than other designs [enough so that they actually aren't that great on radiators]).

[mini rant]
S-Flex is probably my favorite fan on the market--120x120x25mm, non-sleeve, low noise, great for open air and especially great for radiator, good price, readily available in three (soon 4) varieties. Its CFM/dBA ratings are also really realistic and accurate.

Minebea is a fan built for longevity and is a very good fan on top of that. Its MTBF is huge, it runs well, its CFM specs are from NMB-MAT (which must have the same testing equipment as me, my as-tested CFM of their fans is always within 1%, but often within .2% of their claims!), pretty quiet, and also at a good price.



Ok, I'm a little confused here. Is this fan good or not? I have 4 minebea 1600's sleeved and ready to drop onto my PA120.2 and go in my case. Am I reading this wrong, or is it being said that they are bad rad fans? Because I'm confused where you say one post good, next post bad? Can someone let me know if I should change these out, or am I just chasing numbers now?

[Raxxath]

Ok, I'm a little confused here. Is this fan good or not? I have 4 minebea 1600's sleeved and ready to drop onto my PA120.2 and go in my case. Am I reading this wrong, or is it being said that they are bad rad fans? Because I'm confused where you say one post good, next post bad? Can someone let me know if I should change these out, or am I just chasing numbers now?

I believe they are good in open air, but not so good on radiators.

People over at SPCR have said that the Slipstreams have great static pressure, but people at XS say they're sub par. Which is it? :confused:

[LogAn'sRun]

anyone else with an answer on these? Not so good on rads? The 1600's?

[Navanod]

Like I've mentioned in passing in another thread...by "radiator", which?

PAs rads are naturally going to be very forgiving on the SlipStreams and I have a friend who's gotten better temperatures on his TRUE after switching to a 1900rpm slipstream from a high speed Yates (noise is of cos much worse).

I'm thinking that at low restriction, this fan may be able to beat other fans of similar rpm/noise

[evian_26]

how about these fans, have they ever been tested on radiators?

ORIX (Oriental Motors - Germany)



http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=202744&page=95

http://www.oriental-motor.co.uk/uk/sites/produkt_3.php?ida=5&idser=59&PHPSESSID=2c3ed78ee88a9dda5e3f66

[LogAn'sRun]

Like I've mentioned in passing in another thread...by "radiator", which?

PAs rads are naturally going to be very forgiving on the SlipStreams and I have a friend who's gotten better temperatures on his TRUE after switching to a 1900rpm slipstream from a high speed Yates (noise is of cos much worse).

I'm thinking that at low restriction, this fan may be able to beat other fans of similar rpm/noise


Sorry, should have mentioned rad. It's the PA120.2. But I'm not talking about Slipstreams, I'm talking minebea's. It's in my post a couple above yours. . . .:rolleyes:

[Flinch]

Any testing in the slipstreams yet?