View Full Version : (Peltier + Prometeia) > Prometeia?
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 01:10 AM
Hey everyone,
Just curious, would a video card (more specifically, a 9800 Pro) benefit from a TEC + Prometeia setup? Or would it just prevent the Prometeia from doing it's job?
I've got two Prometeias (one for CPU, one for GPU :)), and I was all ready to hook them up when I came across something (can't remember what or where) that suggested that TEC+Prometeia would be even better than just a Prometeia. I normally wouldn't care about the extra cooling (since, with phase change, you usually hit your hardware's wall far before temperatures become any sort of an issue), but adding something between the Prometeia head and core would give me a bit of much-needed clearance (those damn capacitors make it hard to fit the Prometeia's head :)).
Any advice would be greatly appreciated! :toast:
Thanks,
Mike
Nah its pretty pointless tbh, the efficency of tecs drops radically at low temperatures, using the head directly on the gpu would be better.
People with -30C or less waterchillers would also get better temps using just chilled water than a tec, and there watertemps would likely drop also due to drop in load.
]JR[
nop, at really cold temps peltiers become ineffective. people with waterchillers reported that a plain waterchiller performs better then a TEC that gets waterchilled.
Same problem here with capacitators; if I use a peltier + a coldplate I can place my waterblocks/heatsink above the capacitators.
If the capacitators make the evaporator head very hard to install, I'd recommend to de-solder them and connect them with wires a few inches away. Not only it's easier to install the head, but now you can't damage your condensators/CPU with it too
JCviggen
08-21-2003, 01:45 AM
You cant cool a pelt with a Prom/vapochill. They cant handle the heat load, and even if they could, temps would be worse than with direct contact.
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 03:16 PM
Just to clarify... What is a cold plate? Just a plate of metal? I was under the impression that peltiers are aka TEC's which are aka coldplates. However, people are mentioning coldplates as an option where peltiers are not. Am I missing something?
I'm just really desperate to get some clearance on this Radeon for the Prometeia without losing (much) cooling performance.
TEC = peltier
coldplate: piece of copper, 2-5mm thick, acts as a buffer between the peltier and the core. they are strongly recommended if you're using TEC's
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Teus
TEC = peltier
coldplate: piece of copper, 2-5mm thick, acts as a buffer between the peltier and the core. they are strongly recommended if you're using TEC's
I'm guessing it will also work with a Prometeia? It should only diminish cooling by a couple degrees, right?
TheDude
08-21-2003, 03:32 PM
Here's a cold plate...in need of lapping. :D
Originally posted by xDUCK
I'm guessing it will also work with a Prometeia? It should only diminish cooling by a couple degrees, right?
a coldplate is needed anyway if you use a TEC ;)
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Teus
a coldplate is needed anyway if you use a TEC ;)
I'm assuming that's a yes (although you are still avoiding my question :p). Prometeia's aren't TEC's. ;)
Anyway, I've got lots and lots of aluminum and copper plates and bricks (don't ask :stick: ) so getting a coldplate shouldn't be a problem. :banana:
oh, you mean using the Prom evap AND a coldplate?
pretty useless and you'll have to deal with condensation around the copper block. temps will drop more then a few degrees I think, as the copper block needs to be very thick (as it has to be taller then the capacitators)
but it's still better then risking your mainboard :)
it's up to you to decide if the positive stuff weighs up against the disandvantages... let us know what you did!
greetz, T
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 04:46 PM
Well, if I can't get my Prometeia head to make contact with the core, the alternative is stock cooling... Prometeia + coldplate it is! :toast: :)
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 07:53 PM
So how am I supposed to mount this damn Prometeia to my Radeon?
Don't tell me I bought a second Prometeia for nothing.:mad: :(
TheDude
08-21-2003, 08:06 PM
Sounds like you will have to mod or change the evap head to fit the clearance you have....and make sure you don't break the hose.
Or you could trade me for the Vapo I have. :D
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by TheDude
Sounds like you will have to mod or change the evap head to fit the clearance you have....and make sure you don't break the hose.
Or you could trade me for the Vapo I have. :D
Pffffft. :)
Do you think Baker's evap would fit?
TheDude
08-21-2003, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by xDUCK
Pffffft. :)
Do you think Baker's evap would fit?
I dunno....maybe the GPU evap would?
PM Bowman and ask him...he is putting a Baker CPU evap on my prommie
Give him time to reply tho...he is swamped
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by TheDude
I dunno....maybe the GPU evap would?
PM Bowman and ask him...he is putting a Baker CPU evap on my prommie
Do you think I could just buy the block and have it installed locally (as opposed to having Bowman do it, since they're in his possession :)). The only reason I ask is because I have a local refrigeration guy who will install it for free (he's repaired & beefed up my Prometeia before, so he's no trainee or anything :)).
TheDude
08-21-2003, 08:21 PM
As long as Bowman thinks one of Bakers blocks would work and you trust your AC guy to do it....I don't see why not. But it's not an easy task so the guy would have to know his stuff. Bowman can advise you of potential problems I'm sure. The hose will be one problem.
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by TheDude
As long as Bowman thinks one of Bakers blocks would work and you trust your AC guy to do it....I don't see why not. But it's not an easy task so the guy would have to know his stuff. Bowman can advise you of potential problems I'm sure. The hose will be one problem.
Actually, my guy has already replaced my return tube with an extended (by 12"), more durable version. :)
TheDude
08-21-2003, 08:25 PM
Cool...he sounds like he is good then. You can be an excellent AC guy or an excellent PC guy...but you almost need to be both for this kind of stuff.
;)
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by TheDude
Cool...he sounds like he is good then. You can be an excellent AC guy or an excellent PC guy...but you almost need to be both for this kind of stuff.
;)
He also builds cascades, water-cooled condensers, etc. Pretty hardcore stuff!
He also introduced me to CO2... ;)
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 08:34 PM
Btw, this is wayyy off topic, but since you're online and subscribed to this thread... :)
What are your NF7's CPU & Diode readings? No matter how many times I remounted and checked for good contact (which there was), I have yet to see subzero temperatures, even when evap was at -39C (@front panel Prometeia LCD).
TheDude
08-21-2003, 08:41 PM
I need to update my sig...that board will be back from RMA tomorrow. Hasn't ran in a while, I honestly can't remember. I am running an Epox GA+ right now and it reads -12 on cpu...but it's not in the Prommie....Bowman is modding my prommie.
I'm selling the board when it gets here and an ATI 9700 Pro, still in the box and using the proceeds to get an Asus P4C800E and a P4/2.4C cpu, which will go in the prommie when it's done.
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by TheDude
I need to update my sig...that board will be back from RMA tomorrow. Hasn't ran in a while, I honestly can't remember. I am running an Epox GA+ right now and it reads -12 on cpu...but it's not in the Prommie....Bowman is modding my prommie.
I'm selling the board when it gets here and an ATI 9700 Pro, still in the box and using the proceeds to get an Asus P4C800E and a P4/2.4C cpu, which will go in the prommie when it's done.
But you got subzero temps when the Prometeia was hooked up, right?
TheDude
08-21-2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by xDUCK
But you got subzero temps when the Prometeia was hooked up, right?
Sometimes I did, but I noticed that it often stopped at zero....when I knew it was colder than 0.
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by TheDude
Sometimes I did, but I noticed that it often stopped at zero....when I knew it was colder than 0.
Lowest I've ever gotten is +12C.
Something's wrong (and I've tried two NF7-S's, so it is definately not a motherboard problem). :(
It's either my ASIII or the fact that I only put paste on the die and not on the entire evaporator. Should I put it on the entire copper surface?
And btw, I'm switching to Ceramique. :toast:
TheDude
08-21-2003, 09:03 PM
I don't put paste on the entire evap surface, just where it sits on the die and a little on the die....very thin application.
What are you measuring temps with? MBM5 or Bios...also which bios are you using...there's as much as 10 degree difference in some. Also make sure you get good contact...take it off and look for good imprint of the cpu die in the t-paste.
I'm turning in for the night...will check back with you tomorrow. ;)
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by TheDude
I don't put paste on the entire evap surface, just where it sits on the die and a little on the die....very thin application.
What are you measuring temps with? MBM5 or Bios...also which bios are you using...there's as much as 10 degree difference in some. Also make sure you get good contact...take it off and look for good imprint of the cpu die in the t-paste.
I'm turning in for the night...will check back with you tomorrow. ;)
Hey hey,
I've tried ASIII and Arctic Alumina, with temps ranging from +12C to +40C (no kidding) with the evaporator at -30C or colder. I am almost certain that the evap is getting good contact, because I only put thermal paste on the die, and when I remove the evaporator, I see the entire surface (well, the small part that touches the die) is covered with paste. There is no "imprint", though - AFAIK, the amount of thermal paste required to actually make an imprint would hinder cooling, not enhance it (right?).
It's driving me crazy. :( I've tried MBM5 and BIOS readings, it all reports these crazy temps...
TheDude
08-21-2003, 09:33 PM
I would not trust MBM5 or the bios and the prommie temp sensor is located in the evap head where it reports colder temps than closer to the cpu die.
Something does not seem right tho. Maybe someone else who cools this board with a prommie can report their temps?
What kind of OC do you run? Chip, volts, etc. Have you flashed to a recent bios?
You want thin coating of t-paste, but you should still be able to see impression of die. Maybe try adding a couple of washers to your mounting hardware. Tighten the head down evenly, alternating the nuts like with a car wheel. What are your room temps? Case fans? etc.
xDUCK
08-21-2003, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by TheDude
I would not trust MBM5 or the bios and the prommie temp sensor is located in the evap head where it reports colder temps than closer to the cpu die.
Something does not seem right tho. Maybe someone else who cools this board with a prommie can report their temps?
What kind of OC do you run? Chip, volts, etc. Have you flashed to a recent bios?
You want thin coating of t-paste, but you should still be able to see impression of die. Maybe try adding a couple of washers to your mounting hardware. Tighten the head down evenly, alternating the nuts like with a car wheel. What are your room temps? Case fans? etc.
This is with 1.5v and a 1700+ at stock speeds - higher voltage result in even higher temps. :( Strangely enough,
The first NF7-S was flashed to 18, the second one was at factory default BIOS.
Since I got my CPU kit secondhand, I got some wierd washers - two that look like normal washers with rubber casing (kind of like small car tires), and the rest are the kind of washers you see all the time (thin metal circles). Which ones are the "real" thing? Perhaps I am not making good contact after all (that would, after all, be the only explanation, right?).
My room temps are run-of-the-mill... Maybe 23C or so...
JCviggen
08-22-2003, 04:14 AM
If you want to put a prom on your radeon, you could very well use a coldplate (but not a TEC) to "raise" the contact surface so you can mount the prom on it more easily. I've done that before and it works fine, but the problem remains that you can barely fit your card in the AGP slot with a prom mounted to the GPU. Its just for benching anyway, for 24/7 use its absolutely worthless and a lot of trouble to have a prom on a gfx card. not to mention the extra power consumption
Gary Lloyd
08-22-2003, 05:16 AM
Would it be possible to mount the capacitors on the back of the mobo?
Possibly although they can be lots of layer pcbs and you dont know which layers its connected to ;)
]JR[
TheDude
08-22-2003, 06:24 AM
Take a look at any 9800 pro card....even if you clear it in hieght, you have a problem with width and the prom evap head...plus it will hit the slot next to the agp slot. You need a different evap head.;)
xDUCK
08-22-2003, 10:29 AM
I'm starting to think this is less and less of a good idea and that I should just sell this. :( How much do you think I could get for a brand new Mach I (I'd keep the modded one and sell the other one, which has been used for about 3 hours and works flawlessly)?
The more I think about it, the more it seems that it would be a lot of trouble... I mean, it would take, like, all of my PCI slots... Unless I put it on an angle (attach to "east" side of the coldplate). Would that work? (assuming I insulated it all). I've got an aluminum brick just the right size for the job! :banana:
TheDude
08-22-2003, 01:25 PM
It would only cover 2 pci slots...the one the video card is in and the one below it....but it would hit the slot below it...would not fit unless you moved something...maybe remove the pci slot?
xDUCK
08-22-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by TheDude
It would only cover 2 pci slots...the one the video card is in and the one below it....but it would hit the slot below it...would not fit unless you moved something...maybe remove the pci slot?
I'd rather not mutilate my NF7-S. :eek:
Just emailed baker about getting one of those GPU blocks - no reply yet :(. How long does he usually take to reply?
I don't mind losing 2 PCI slots, since I have no PCI cards anyway. :D I might be getting one (sound card or tv tuner or something) but that shouldn't be a problem with 3 remaining.
Maybe this will work out after all! :D :toast:
TheDude
08-22-2003, 01:57 PM
Might take a while...imagine he gets lots of PMs...maybe you should email him too.
Hope it does work out...maybe his block will fit without too much hassle. :D
xDUCK
08-22-2003, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by TheDude
Might take a while...imagine he gets lots of PMs...maybe you should email him too.
Hope it does work out...maybe his block will fit without too much hassle. :D
Well, it definately does fit, because it's got mounting holes to match a 9800 (and presumably other cards). :D It's just a question of getting my hands on that puppy and getting it installed (which will take a pretty penny, considering I'll have to have it recharged AGAIN for the second time in a week :().
Originally posted by xDUCK
Just emailed baker about getting one of those GPU blocks - no reply yet :(. How long does he usually take to reply?
I should imagine i know the price. ill pm.
As far as prommying your gpu unless your heading for page1 of the orb its not worth it, it will not be a 24/7 setup.
If you want to get to the top of the game it takes more than money and mhz, as many have found.
]JR[
TheDude
08-23-2003, 04:31 PM
If you want to get to the top of the game it takes more than money and mhz, as many have found.
AMEN!
xDUCK
08-23-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by ]JR[
I should imagine i know the price. ill pm.
As far as prommying your gpu unless your heading for page1 of the orb its not worth it, it will not be a 24/7 setup.
If you want to get to the top of the game it takes more than money and mhz, as many have found.
]JR[
Well, I plan to run it 24/7. :p :)
There's no way I'll be anywhere near the top of the ORB with an AMD rig (especially a 1700+ :), not matter how good the stepping), but one cannot deny the coolness factor of having two Prometeia's. :)
I will find a way to securely attach the Prometeia to my vid card, without using Baker's block! :) I would use Baker's block, but IMVHO, $100 is highway robbery - the materials can't cost more than $10, and IIRC, he's got a friend with a CNC shop that does it for free. :confused:
I wouldn't do it: too dangerous, too much hassle to mount, too expensive
it's cool to have two proms hooked up, but since bowmand did that more people with a lot of money what to do it. just because it's cool :rolleyes:
I'd spend my money on a good pelt/watercooling setup, or a waterchiller
xDUCK
08-23-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Teus
I wouldn't do it: too dangerous, too much hassle to mount, too expensive
it's cool to have two proms hooked up, but since bowmand did that more people with a lot of money what to do it. just because it's cool :rolleyes:
I'd spend my money on a good pelt/watercooling setup, or a waterchiller
But, can't you see the :slobber: on people's faces when they see it? :D
Seriously, though, I have found workarounds to all sorts of stuff before, and dared to do some crazy stuff (cooled my 9800 Pro with an aluminum brick, a ski sharpener :stick:, etc). I will not back down this time.:toast: I will make this work! I might just design a dummy card to go into the PCI slot below to help hold up the Prometeia head - I will not be stopped! :banana:
Originally posted by xDUCK
But, can't you see the :slobber: on people's faces when they see it? :D
- prom: 350$
- power consumption: 10-13 Megawatt every year, costing 300$
- a lot of time, effort and the risk of trashing your vidcard
I'd stay using a prom for thatis just... stupid
it's too much hassle + you spoil both your money and precious power
xDUCK
08-23-2003, 06:39 PM
Well, how much do you think I could get for a modded (mind you, enhanced, not screwed up :)) but perfectly functional topless beige Mach I?