Is it actually worthwhile to run dual-socket servers?

[karl_eller]

I know quite a few guys here are running dual Harpertown servers for crunching, and purely as an intellectual exercise, I decided to price one up. The final list ended up looking a bit like this:

2x E5430's (2x AU$625) - AU$1250
4x 1 Gb 667MHZ FBDDR2 RAM - AU$400
Dual-socket LGA771 mobo - AU$400-500 (depending on manufacturer, etc)
PSU - AU$300-400? Not sure what PSU I'd even use, since it'd need 2x 8-pin EPS plugs
HDD - AU$50
Case - AU$150-200
Total: ~$2800

Then I thought... hang on, I could almost buy THREE Q6600 rigs for that kind of money. They'd be something like:
Q6600 - $320
IP35-Pro - $180
2 Gb 800Mhz DDR2 RAM - $90
Corsair 450 Watt PSU - $100
Case - $100
HDD - $50
Cheap GPU - $50
Total: AU$900

Add in $50 for a decent after-market heatsink, and those Q6600's would probably be looking at 3.2GHz or so.

And unless I'm missing something, 3 Q6600's running at 3.2+ GHz would beat out two Xeon E5430's running at 2.66Ghz, yes?

So what's the point of running dual Harpers? Aside from being able to say you have your own server (or 4)?

Eller

[Movieman]

I know quite a few guys here are running dual Harpertown servers for crunching, and purely as an intellectual exercise, I decided to price one up. The final list ended up looking a bit like this:

2x E5430's (2x AU$625) - AU$1250
4x 1 Gb 667MHZ FBDDR2 RAM - AU$400
Dual-socket LGA771 mobo - AU$400-500 (depending on manufacturer, etc)
PSU - AU$300-400? Not sure what PSU I'd even use, since it'd need 2x 8-pin EPS plugs
HDD - AU$50
Case - AU$150-200
Total: ~$2800

Then I thought... hang on, I could almost buy THREE Q6600 rigs for that kind of money. They'd be something like:
Q6600 - $320
IP35-Pro - $180
2 Gb 800Mhz DDR2 RAM - $90
Corsair 450 Watt PSU - $100
Case - $100
HDD - $50
Cheap GPU - $50
Total: AU$900

Add in $50 for a decent after-market heatsink, and those Q6600's would probably be looking at 3.2GHz or so.

And unless I'm missing something, 3 Q6600's running at 3.2+ GHz would beat out two Xeon E5430's running at 2.66Ghz, yes?

So what's the point of running dual Harpers? Aside from being able to say you have your own server (or 4)?

Eller

The 5430's should do 3400 and the Q6600 should do 3600 for better comparison.
So you have one dual Harpertown at 3400(8x3400=27,200mhz) vs 3-Q6600's at 3600 (12x3600=43,200) so yes, the Q6600's will eat it for lunch..
Bottom line is your 100% right!:D

[karl_eller]

I was under the impression that most server motherboards had very little in the way of overclocking ability (if any), which is why I didn't consider OCing the E5430's.

Also, 3.2Ghz was chosen as the OC for the Q6600's, since it means I could pick up a fairly cheap heatsink (Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro, or something similar), rather than needing something like a Tuinq or TRUE.

Eller

[Movieman]

I was under the impression that most server motherboards had very little in the way of overclocking ability (if any), which is why I didn't consider OCing the E5430's.

Also, 3.2Ghz was chosen as the OC for the Q6600's, since it means I could pick up a fairly cheap heatsink (Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro, or something similar), rather than needing something like a Tuinq or TRUE.

Eller

There is some ability to OC some of the server boards(systool on the memory)
As to the $20.00-$30.00 in difference between cheap aircoolers and the good ones: Dothe math,the added work done by that extra 400mhz percore(1600mhz) over the life of the system is well worth the extra for the better HS.
Now why do I like the duals vs the single socket machines?
Pure power and smooth like you wouldn't beleive but the best bang for the buck is the Q6600's.

[systemviper]

Yea, but having 3 systems, none of which can overpower the Dualie. I say give me the Dualie with quads!

It like buying 3 hundi or a good mustang GT. Yea now i got 3 ok cars or one fantastic ride,

I'll take the mustang!

[Movieman]

Yea, but having 3 systems, none of which can overpower the Dualie. I say give me the Dualie with quads!

It like buying 3 hundi or a good mustang GT. Yea now i got 3 ok cars or one fantastic ride,

I'll take the mustang!

yup, sitting here with an 8 core machine at 3157/8mb/1402 that will take anything you throw at it and still not slow down is a ball.
Then there's those 4 second unrar's of a 700mb avi file..:rofl:

[123bob]

The wild card here is the power cost. If you have really expensive electric service over time perhaps the harpers look good.

I'm looking to get some actual scores from clocked harpers that we can work with. We have to do the math.

For the time being, I sit with my quad farm. It has been good to me.

The other factor, as Dave pointed out to me, is Nehalem. I'd love to put a dual 8 core in the stable. If I save bucks now, can I buy better machines in under a year? (Of course, these are in addition to the currnet farm....:D )

Bob

[Movieman]

The wild card here is the power cost. If you have really expensive electric service over time perhaps the harpers look good.

I'm looking to get some actual scores from clocked harpers that we can work with. We have to do the math.

For the time being, I sit with my quad farm. It has been good to me.

The other factor, as Dave pointed out to me, is Nehalem. I'd love to put a dual 8 core in the stable. If I save bucks now, can I buy better machines in under a year? (Of course, these are in addition to the currnet farm....:D )

Bob

Electric is a big issue. These new Harpers are looking nice in that dept.
10% better clock for clock over the clovers,then they will go to over 4000 on air that the clovers won't unless on LN2, then they use (guess) app 1/3 less elec.It's a win-win-win...of course then there is that unknown of Nehalem..

[sierra_bound]

An 8-core Nehalem chip will likely be very expensive and probably better suited for the MP server market. Dual 4-core Nehalems would give you 16 threads (each core is double-threaded). I have no idea how they are going to be priced. The roadmaps indicate the extreme desktop version will be released first (end of the year possibly). The server chips may be released last. As someone explained to me, this is a brand new architecture and Intel may want to test the waters first with the desktop chip. The server market is too important for a botched launch.

[Movieman]

An 8-core Nehalem chip will likely be very expensive and probably better suited for the MP server market. Dual 4-core Nehalems would give you 16 threads (each core is double-threaded). I have no idea how they are going to be priced. The roadmaps indicate the extreme desktop version will be released first (end of the year possibly). The server chips may be released last. As someone explained to me, this is a brand new architecture and Intel may want to test the waters first with the desktop chip. The server market is too important for a botched launch.
Now that makes the best sense of anything I've heard so far.

[sierra_bound]

The server chips are probably a year away from launch. And again, I've seen no information about pricing. I think it's reasonable to assume that a dual-socket Nehalem system won't be cheap.

I have thought about upgrading to Harpertown. But if I got Harpertowns, I would also want a new board and new FB-DIMMs. Total cost of upgrading would be over $2000. Not worth it in my opinion.

[STEvil]

There is some ability to OC some of the server boards(systool on the memory)

Actually its on the system bus, the memory just tags along for the ride ;)

[Movieman]

The server chips are probably a year away from launch. And again, I've seen no information about pricing. I think it's reasonable to assume that a dual-socket Nehalem system won't be cheap.

I have thought about upgrading to Harpertown. But if I got Harpertowns, I would also want a new board and new FB-DIMMs. Total cost of upgrading would be over $2000. Not worth it in my opinion.

I don't have much to base this on,just a gut feeling that when dual nehalem boards and chips come out we will be shocked on the prices.
I think the days of reasonable dualies is over.
With Quad core single socket machines around I think that the companies will start charging for these duals at a "commercial" level and that will exclude us from using them.
Let's be honest withourselves: None of us needs a 8 core machine. It is nice to have but not needed. The only people that can truly makeuse of them outside of crunching are professionals that will pay the high premium such as
Silicon Graphics used to cater to.

Actually its on the system bus, the memory just tags along for the ride ;)
Yes, Poor choice of words on my part.. I stand corrected..:bows:

[sierra_bound]

The money is in the enterprise market. Big corporations don't shop at Newegg. The desktop market is gradually shrinking. It's hard for the average consumer to say no to laptops or even iPhones when they are selling for $300-400.

[[XC] junglemaster]

Let's be honest withourselves: None of us needs a 8 core machine. It is nice to have but not needed. The only people that can truly makeuse of them outside of crunching are professionals that will pay the high premium such as
Silicon Graphics used to cater to.

I am going to become a crunching professional...so I can see that I will need one :up:

[123bob]

I am going to become a crunching professional...so I can see that I will need one :up:

I'm thinking so too....:cool: Now don't let intel see Sierra's and MM's posts and lets have them believe we don't want to pay too much....:p: Otherwise, I will have to adapt and continue on the desktop architecture that my farm is built on now.

Biggest Bang for the cruncher buck. That's what I will ultimately do.

Regards,
Bob

[Movieman]

I am going to become a crunching professional...so I can see that I will need one :up:

Just for the hell of it say your budget allows you to spend $2000.00 per
year on PC's and related parts.
What is the best use of that money?
Assuming you have monitor and all ascoiated parts you get options:
1) Build 2 very nice or 3 minimalist quads
2)Build one mid range dual socket system
3) Build one quad and save for year two and build one top dual socket system

I think you need to keep a dual at least 3 years to make it a worthwhile investment.Anything less and your loss per year is huge.
Look at the speed of technology today.
The "Holy Crap Batman" dualclover that was built here in Dec 2006 is now still a good machine but a single quad Yorkie is close in daily production,makes less heat and costs less to run in elec use.
Add in that this is the last go round for the socket 771 boards and it's hard to justify building the duals UNLESS you have some of the key parts already to offset that cost at least somewhat OR if you can score the parts at great prices.
As much as I love the duals I can't honestly suggest them to anyone as a pure cruncher.
If you have other uses or your epeen just plain wants one thats different.
That I can understand but don't build one thinking it's the best cruncher on the planet because it isn't. The $270.00 Q6600 G0 rules there now and probably will until the mid range Yorkies are out in the spring-summer 2008.

[[XC] junglemaster]

If you have other uses or your epeen just plain wants one thats different.

So what are you trying to say? You agree that my epeen is just not big enough to play in this park? :ROTF: :clap:

[123bob]

Just for the hell of it say your budget allows you to spend $2000.00 per
year on PC's and related parts.
What is the best use of that money?
Assuming you have monitor and all ascoiated parts you get options:
1) Build 2 very nice or 3 minimalist quads
2)Build one mid range dual socket system
3) Build one quad and save for year two and build one top dual socket system

I think you need to keep a dual at least 3 years to make it a worthwhile investment.Anything less and your loss per year is huge.
Look at the speed of technology today.
The "Holy Crap Batman" dualclover that was built here in Dec 2006 is now still a good machine but a single quad Yorkie is close in daily production,makes less heat and costs less to run in elec use.
Add in that this is the last go round for the socket 771 boards and it's hard to justify building the duals UNLESS you have some of the key parts already to offset that cost at least somewhat OR if you can score the parts at great prices.
As much as I love the duals I can't honestly suggest them to anyone as a pure cruncher.
If you have other uses or your epeen just plain wants one thats different.
That I can understand but don't build one thinking it's the best cruncher on the planet because it isn't. The $270.00 Q6600 G0 rules there now and probably will until the mid range Yorkies are out in the spring-summer 2008.

Well said Dave. :up: We still need the mid-range dual scores to verify, but I think it will prove you're right....

[Movieman]

So what are you trying to say? You agree that my epeen is just not big enough to play in this park? :ROTF: :clap:
Straight talk: I know you a little so here goes:
You come across as 20's, comfortable financially and single.
You want the dualie, then do it.
If you were married and not so $$ comfortable I would say a big NO!

Well said Dave. :up: We still need the mid-range dual scores to verify, but I think it will prove you're right....
I ran some numbers: KB Dual Harper at 2810 should do app the same as Mesh's clover at 3157(26,300 day/average)using 233w vs 421w.

[sierra_bound]

The one thing I like about my dual-socket cruncher is reliability. I've had zero problems, even with the chips overclocked. And it feels like the proverbial tank. For me, that's more important than pure speed.

[Movieman]

The one thing I like about my dual-socket cruncher is reliability. I've had zero problems, even with the chips overclocked. And it feels like the proverbial tank. For me, that's more important than pure speed.

We agree 100% here.
Both my clovers have been the most dependable machines I've ever owned.
NO down time at all due to the systems.
Only down time in 14 months was an icestorm and me futzing with some heatsinks from hell.

[Blauhung]

On the subject of Nehalem. The 8 core will be extremely cost prohibitave to put on anything less then expensive MP platforms due to die size. So don't count on that making it to normal users until 32nm comes into play.

As for release timing: Nehalem and Bloomfield are physically the same chip. The only reason i could possibly see for Nehalem lagging behind Bloomfield, is if they need the extra time for validation. Due to the fact that Intel makes way more money on the DP side of things then the High end enthusiast desktop, I'm pretty sure that the validation is being done on dual socket Nehalem first and foremost as that will be the driving force behind design revisions in the CPU and chipset, and it will be the more critical side of things to work properly from a business standpoint. I still think that Bloomfield will be validated along side of Nehalem, but desktop validation doesn't take as long as the server and it was probably started after Nehalem was already well under way.

Overall I'd say expect it to be just like the Penryn launch; mid to high end server launch along side high end desktop.

[Movieman]

On the subject of Nehalem. The 8 core will be extremely cost prohibitave to put on anything less then expensive MP platforms due to die size. So don't count on that making it to normal users until 32nm comes into play.

As for release timing: Nehalem and Bloomfield are physically the same chip. The only reason i could possibly see for Nehalem lagging behind Bloomfield, is if they need the extra time for validation. Due to the fact that Intel makes way more money on the DP side of things then the High end enthusiast desktop, I'm pretty sure that the validation is being done on dual socket Nehalem first and foremost as that will be the driving force behind design revisions in the CPU and chipset, and it will be the more critical side of things to work properly from a business standpoint. I still think that Bloomfield will be validated along side of Nehalem, but desktop validation doesn't take as long as the server and it was probably started after Nehalem was already well under way.

Overall I'd say expect it to be just like the Penryn launch; mid to high end server launch along side high end desktop.

Thanks..and can you clarify one thing for me?
Will there be an 8 core nehalem(one cpu) released in 45nm in 2008 or is it a dual socket 4 core and 4core that we will be seeing.
Still alot of confusion on this issue.
From what I see it will be a 4 core only cpu whether on single socket or dual.

[sierra_bound]

Intel has said very little about the server chip (Gainestown). About all we know is it will share the same socket configuration as the high-end desktop chips (Bloomfield).

By the way, here's an old pic of one of Intel's validation labs.

[[XC] gomeler]

The only dual that really interests me would be the mid-range chips with the 7.5x or 8x multipliers. They are at a decent price-point and will be easily cooled making it possible to have some serious "silent" power. Sure, you could run a QX9650 under a single-stage and get the same performance but there is something special about near-silent operation and dual sockets. If only I could use regular DDR2 and I'd be in love. Now don't get me wrong, I'd kill for a Skulltrail and two QX9775's but they aren't feasible for someone in my financial standings. Now if I bought Ferrari's on a whim then I wouldn't bat an eye at a $6,000 workstation, one day.. one day :p:

[Blauhung]

Thanks..and can you clarify one thing for me?
Will there be an 8 core nehalem(one cpu) released in 45nm in 2008 or is it a dual socket 4 core and 4core that we will be seeing.
Still alot of confusion on this issue.
From what I see it will be a 4 core only cpu whether on single socket or dual.

Now remember, I'm not speaking on lintel's behalf, only stuff that is out there and some guessing. 8 core on a die Nehalem will probably lag behind 4 in much the same way Dunnington 6 core is lagging behind Penryn. The 8 core Nehalem stuff will replace Dunnington. So I'll venture a guess as say probably a year or more from the time that the first Nehalem stuff launches. What we will see with the big launch the end of this year will all be 4 cores per die.


Intel has said very little about the server chip (Gainestown). About all we know is it will share the same socket configuration as the high-end desktop chips (Bloomfield).

yeah, forgot the server codename. both the same chip though. Gainstown has 2 QP interconnects and 1 tri-channel memory controller per die. 1 QPI to the Tylersburg chpset, and 1 to the other socket. Tylersburg has the 2x16 pci-e 2.0 and 2 QP lines and i think maybe a third one to the ICH10 SB. So you will end up with a dual socket love triangle with each socket having its own 3 channel memory controller making that a total of 6 channels of bandwidth. I'm somewhat sure that with the IMC, you also hold off the need for FBdimm's until you get into much higher populations of memory, so this will most likely just only need ECC enabled memory.

Bloomfield's platform will be all the same chips, just with the CPU and the NB having one of their QPI's disabled. so you end up with only 1 3 channel memory controller and one lane for the CPU --> NB.

[Movieman]

Now remember, I'm not speaking on lintel's behalf, only stuff that is out there and some guessing. 8 core on a die Nehalem will probably lag behind 4 in much the same way Dunnington 6 core is lagging behind Penryn. The 8 core Nehalem stuff will replace Dunnington. So I'll venture a guess as say probably a year or more from the time that the first Nehalem stuff launches. What we will see with the big launch the end of this year will all be 4 cores per die.



yeah, forgot the server codename. both the same chip though. Gainstown has 2 QP interconnects and 1 tri-channel memory controller per die. 1 QPI to the Tylersburg chpset, and 1 to the other socket. Tylersburg has the 2x16 pci-e 2.0 and 2 QP lines and i think maybe a third one to the ICH10 SB. So you will end up with a dual socket love triangle with each socket having its own 3 channel memory controller making that a total of 6 channels of bandwidth. I'm somewhat sure that with the IMC, you also hold off the need for FBdimm's until you get into much higher populations of memory, so this will most likely just only need ECC enabled memory.

Bloomfield's platform will be all the same chips, just with the CPU and the NB having one of their QPI's disabled. so you end up with only 1 3 channel memory controller and one lane for the CPU --> NB.

Thank you.
Just a general comment:
This is the stuff that I looked at 2 years ago in awe and disbelief and now coming to market.
If you step back to pre C2D days and remember that time frame this stuff is like stepping into a time portal.
Amazing how far "we've come in 24months.
Remember: I was building my 'ultimate" DX3600/2mb/800 Xeon system in August 2005..:D

[[XC] junglemaster]

Straight talk: I know you a little so here goes:
You come across as 20's, comfortable financially and single.
You want the dualie, then do it.
If you were married and not so $$ comfortable I would say a big NO!

Nearly ;) 30's :D