What is the future interface of sound cards?

[SlyMaelstrom]

With PCI slowly being pushed off the modern motherboard, what is the next interface that sound cards will use? Will they operate on PCIe x1 or x4 or what? I know there already is a PCIe x1 sound card, but it's gotten bad reviews.

[keiths]

Write a virtual sound device with a backend to pass sound over the network to your old system. Problem solved;)

[Donnie27]

Actually one got a bad reveiw, the other got several good reviews. The Asus Home Theater based card, the PCI-E ASUS Xonar D2X improves on the ASUS Xonar D2 PCI based version. Since these are CPU based sound systems, the interface isn't as important as a BUS mastering Hardware based card. The bad reviews have been on the Creative Xtreme Audio since it is a software based not quite a real X-Fi. It sucks in PCI and PCI-E formats.

[Monkeywoman]

what i would like to see is a sound card as long as my GFX card(8inch) and is dual slot but has everything on it like hdmi, 7.1 outputs optical in and out etc. and dual core APU :D

[Donnie27]

what i would like to see is a sound card as long as my GFX card(8inch) and is dual slot but has everything on it like hdmi, 7.1 outputs optical in and out etc. and dual core APU :D

HDMI on the video cards that do sound is the next big thing. Still, this might suck for Game sounds.

[EvilBellyLint]

With PCI slowly being pushed off the modern motherboard, what is the next interface that sound cards will use? Will they operate on PCIe x1 or x4 or what? I know there already is a PCIe x1 sound card, but it's gotten bad reviews.

better quality, external audio interfaces (keeping them shielded from
internal PC component noise) -- perhaps a modified breakout box that
fits into a drive bay :shrug:


EBL

[jackies]

I have two "pro-sumer" grade soundcards, all FireWire interface.
So I think FireWire is the future.

[Scubar]

All we need is nVidia to buy Creative and slap an X-Fi on a graphics card :D

[zanzabar]

All we need is nVidia to buy Creative and slap an X-Fi on a graphics card :D

as if we need drivers to get even worse than they are from creative


we need creative to die so that eax can die since its useless when u can have people coding for open AL and getting full effects with anything like the via envy 24bit on an maudio card

[ROBSCIX]

The External cards are good if built by companies that care about sound quality. According to a few sources soundcards are a small market and gaming soundcards are a niche market within the small market. PCI-E will most likely be the next interface used. That are many nice external cards if your interested in firwire or USB. As for noise I keep my soundcard insulated with shielding medium to prevent any such EMI/RFI noise inductions.

[xytrius]

The External cards are good if built by companies that care about sound quality. According to a few sources soundcards are a small market and gaming soundcards are a niche market within the small market. PCI-E will most likely be the next interface used. That are many nice external cards if your interested in firwire or USB. As for noise I keep my soundcard insulated with shielding medium to prevent any such EMI/RFI noise inductions.

I don't mean to thread jack, but what kind of shielding medium do you use, and how do you do it? What are the symptoms of EMI/RFI noise?

[ROBSCIX]

Noise induction you won't notice when it is there because it is just part of the sound BUT you can notice when it is gone. Some people think it is a good idea some think it is a bad idea.
I use ERS paper, you can make it into a small envelope to go over the card or if your card is in the last slot use the paper to make a partition to shield the card from the rest of the PC. I heard of guys using static bags that your PC cards and mobos come in, they would work to some degree. With ERS paper you have to make sure you do it correctly because the paper can be conductive on the edges. Opinions on the procedure vary.

[xytrius]

Thanks ROBSCIX.

Where can I get ERS paper? Can I insulate it with a sheet of cellophane?

Sorry if I am threadjacking. Thanks.

[ROBSCIX]

You can buy it at some Hi-fi shops. It is used for insulating the insides of receivers/amps etc. Cellophane, No it would have no shielding properties.
I have never tried the static bags but I guess they would work to some extent.
ERS paper is a bit pricey about $20 a sheet. Which can do about 3 soundcards. They sell it at parts connection also. Here is a link for info. ERS Paper (http://www.partsconnexion.com/audiogon_pix/ERS_MAIN.htm)

You results may vary. You should notice some improvement. If your using a cheap sound card and cheap speakers I wouldn't bother.

[Soulburner]

I'm not fond of the idea of covering my sound card in a glove so it can cook its own caps off.

[ROBSCIX]

There are various ways to do it. The heat dissipation needs are a concern of course. -Blindly putting this medium on the card without considering them would be rather foolish. The X-fi guys at Head-fi are fond of using the envelope method. IMO, It is better to use the paper as a partition or barrier to protect the card from the worst EMI/RFI emitting components. As I said there are many ways to go about using this medium as a RFI/EMI shield.

[jackies]

IMO, RFI/EMI is not the biggest problem with soundcards.
The biggest problem is cheap components and design tradeoffs.
There are good sound cards and cards that sound like sh**.
And I had good sounding cards sitting in my case without any shielding.
So basically shielding will not help a cheap soundcard (I experimented with that).

[Donnie27]

IMO, RFI/EMI is not the biggest problem with soundcards.
The biggest problem is cheap components and design tradeoffs.
There are good sound cards and cards that sound like sh**.
And I had good sounding cards sitting in my case without any shielding.
So basically shielding will not help a cheap soundcard (I experimented with that).

This time I agree with Rob but 100% Solid State motherboards have less EMI/RFI to block in the first place. No matter whatever short comings the Gigabyte boards have, noise is NOT one of them. I've not heard a lot of New boards but if they're like this one, fewer folks will bother with ERS paper and etc... But ERS-P is easily worth a shot:) In fact, I know at least two guys and one chick saying moving the HDD's up to the 5.25" bays with those only floppy brackets or HDD coolers helped more. I've not tried it myself though.

Anyway, I'm hooked on Digital Out and it ***seems less affected than Analog.

[Soulburner]

My IP35 Pro has solid state caps as well.

[xytrius]

You can buy it at some Hi-fi shops. It is used for insulating the insides of receivers/amps etc. Cellophane, No it would have no shielding properties.
I have never tried the static bags but I guess they would work to some extent.
ERS paper is a bit pricey about $20 a sheet. Which can do about 3 soundcards. They sell it at parts connection also. Here is a link for info. ERS Paper (http://www.partsconnexion.com/audiogon_pix/ERS_MAIN.htm)

You results may vary. You should notice some improvement. If your using a cheap sound card and cheap speakers I wouldn't bother.

Thank you, ROBSCIX.

I learned quite a bit from your post, the ESR paper seems to be a Full Metal Jacket (bad pun intended :)) against possible RFI/EMI emissions, and since I have a Prelude and Klipsch 2.1 on DFI 754 - it seems to be worth a try (nothing to lose).

I was not referring to cellophane for shielding, I was asking about insulation in conjunction with the ESR paper since you mentioned that the ESR edges might be conductive. Thanks to the link you provided, I am thinking of using insulating tape at the edges of the ESR paper envelope.

I plan on a loose ESR envelope [at least one inch] from the sound card on all sides with the ESR paper envelope perforated with pin holes, and secured to the Prelude with rubber adhesive, what do you think?

Edit: One good reason to try out ESR is because my sound is analog!

[xytrius]

I'm not fond of the idea of covering my sound card in a glove so it can cook its own caps off.

:) Thanks, that is why my previous post has a loose perforated envelope in it!

[Donnie27]

:) Thanks, that is why my previous post has a loose perforated envelope in it!

A bud used this just as Rob said though. He has his in sections. It's partitioned off but the card still gets air. One on a piece of Green board/PCB, another piece at between it and the Hard Drive and sound card in the bottom of the case. It's sort of like Cubicles in an office. He says the effect are present more during recordings. He uses a 1212 PCI card and Interface.

I'm not using any with my current system but haven't ruled it out. Note, I was shown how much noise a Side Case Fan caused I was shocked and surprised how bad it was.

[Donnie27]

My IP35 Pro has solid state caps as well.

Most boards are moving to Solid state. The Companies are saving money from less support and RMA's. I like the looks of that Abit board:D ABIT IP35 Pro ATX Intel Motherboard

Link (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?CurImage=13-127-030-03.jpg&Image=13-127-030-02.jpg%2c13-127-030-03.jpg%2c13-127-030-04.jpg%2c13-127-030-05.jpg%2c13-127-030-06.jpg%2c13-127-030-07.jpg%2c13-127-030-08.jpg&S7ImageFlag=0&Depa=1&Description=ABIT+IP35+Pro+ATX+Intel+Motherboard)
The heatpipe crap has to go though.

[ROBSCIX]

Thank you, ROBSCIX.

I learned quite a bit from your post, the ESR paper seems to be a Full Metal Jacket (bad pun intended :)) against possible RFI/EMI emissions, and since I have a Prelude and Klipsch 2.1 on DFI 754 - it seems to be worth a try (nothing to lose).

I was not referring to cellophane for shielding, I was asking about insulation in conjunction with the ESR paper since you mentioned that the ESR edges might be conductive. Thanks to the link you provided, I am thinking of using insulating tape at the edges of the ESR paper envelope.

I plan on a loose ESR envelope [at least one inch] from the sound card on all sides with the ESR paper envelope perforated with pin holes, and secured to the Prelude with rubber adhesive, what do you think?

Edit: One good reason to try out ESR is because my sound is analog!

You should notice your card getting somewhat warmer and the silence becoming "darker" as the inside of the PC case is very noisy -electrically speaking. Using ERS paper or other shielding medium prevents EMI/RFI from being inducted into the traces and components on the card. The wort offender in the PC is the PSU, although there are other devices that are constantly "transmitting" interference signals. I know a guy that built a envelope of tinfoil -covered his card and grounded it to the chassis. I am pretty sure there are air holes in it but what he did is build a faraday cage for his card. Any EMI/RFI hits the shielding and it goes straight to ground. -heat would be somewhat of a concern though. It is easiest to cover the edges with tape or the entire paper surface. They also have adhesive paper too.

As for your method, you can try putting it right on the card or using it to partition the rest of the PC from the soundcard -if you know what I mean. You may get good result putting it on the back of the card only. Use whatever works.
Good luck with your modding.:up:

[Yukon Trooper]

Hardware acceleration directly implemented onto the motherboards.

[xytrius]

Thanks ROBSCIX and everyone here who bore with my digressions - my next post is on topic!

[xytrius]

I remember reading a while ago (I think it was in Anandtech) that most sound processing will eventually be done by software in the OS, so perhaps the next great interface would be software?

Why can’t Dolby, DTS and all other audio processing be done by software and have just a single optical out to an amplifier? Perhaps there can even be an amplifier in an available bay and we can use HiFi speakers? Okay now tell me why I am being stupid! :)

[EvilBellyLint]

I remember reading a while ago (I think it was in Anandtech) that most sound processing will eventually be done by software in the OS, so perhaps the next great interface would be software?

Why can’t Dolby, DTS and all other audio processing be done by software and have just a single optical out to an amplifier? Perhaps there can even be an amplifier in an available bay and we can use HiFi speakers? Okay now tell me why I am being stupid! :)

At some point, asking software to do the job of hardware results in
diminishing returns.


EBL

[Donnie27]

At some point, asking software to do the job of hardware results in
diminishing returns.


EBL

QFT!

[xytrius]

At some point, asking software to do the job of hardware results in
diminishing returns.


EBL

Please tell me where I am wrong:

Hardware processing (sound cards/ processors etc.) implements sound processing algorithms that can be [and also currently are] implemented through software.

In today’s world of multi core processors, sound processing algorithms can be handled in software without decreasing normal computation throughput as long as the computation is not part of core functionality (rendering, memory allocation etc.).

Where are the diminishing returns? You could rewrite the sound processing to optimize, whither diminution?

[Donnie27]

Please tell me where I am wrong:

Hardware processing (sound cards/ processors etc.) implements sound processing algorithms that can be [and also currently are] implemented through software.

In today’s world of multi core processors, sound processing algorithms can be handled in software without decreasing normal computation throughput as long as the computation is not part of core functionality (rendering, memory allocation etc.).

Where are the diminishing returns? You could rewrite the sound processing to optimize, whither diminution?

Then let's get rid of Video cards as well and let the Processor do that too:D

[EvilBellyLint]

Then let's get rid of Video cards as well and let the Processor do that too:D

Precisely the point.

If it was logistically feasible to tax the cpu with all the processes
currently carried out in hardware, computers would already be just
slightly larger then the cpu itself, and we wouldn't need hardware.

When quantum computers become mainstream, my point will be moot.
Until then, you start over-taxing the cpu with procs that are better
handled by hardware, and you won't have many cycles left to run
your software :ROTF:


EBL

[Donnie27]

Precisely the point.

If it was logistically feasible to tax the cpu with all the processes
currently carried out in hardware, computers would already be just
slightly larger then the cpu itself, and we wouldn't need hardware.

When quantum computers become mainstream, my point will be moot.
Until then, you start over-taxing the cpu with procs that are better
handled by hardware, and you won't have many cycles left to run
your software :ROTF:

EBL

Oh, I'm on your side on this! There most certainly will be a time when Discrete cards of any kind will be useless. Clearly we're not close to that happening anytime soon. There is no software version of EAX 3, 4, and 5 no matter what Asus or their Gorilla marketers say. It's not just a matter of Processor Cycles, it's software written for the CPU to do the neat little tricks all cards do. Software 3D Video rendering looks bad and software 3D sound processing sounds bad.

Please note, I made the above bold so I don't get speeches about Music playback. OpenAL alone similar to DS3D alone, it doesn't cut it IMHO. Inside shouldn't sound like outside or vice versa.