The Overclocking secret behind Hynix and A-DATA

[Liquid3D]

While I'm spending what many would see as "high" prices for Corsair's new Twin-X4000 DDR500 memory, one must consider, not so much the length of their economic measuring stick, but where it's placed.

For example, I may post about attaining 266FSB with Corsair memory, happy as can be. Then along comes someone unable to simply share in my joy, but for some odd reason minimizing my acheivement in the claim they found A-DATA, or some other DDR500 for half the price? Making the silly mistake of missing their location, I allow such doubt to creep into my personal mosaic. Other's reading the Post hold off on purchasing perfectly good memory, because they think they can wait for the proverbial "something for nothing." Pretty soon my cousin/your cousin, employed in California, Texas, or Colorado, is jobless? All because I forgot to read the location of another forum member challenging the cost of my memory.

Here's the problem. A-DATA is most likely using Hynix 4ns IC's, from the Hinschu Fab. Those same IC's which have them in the followng penalty phase with the ITC;

"The U.S. International Trade Commission Wednesday upheld a June ruling by the U.S. Commerce Department, finding that Hynix Semiconductor Inc. was responsible for causing injury to the U.S. DRAM industry when it accepted what Commerce found to be illegal government subsidies channeled to the company through several Korean banks.

The decision concluded the injury phase of the trade investigation and upheld the June ruling by Commerce, which imposed a 44.71% duty against all Hynix DRAM imported into the United States. The tariff is a penalty for what Commerce said were illegal Korean government subsidies provided to the chipmaker as part of three separate financial bailouts made through government-owned or -controlled domestic banks." http://www.siliconstrategies.com/article/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=12802870

Need I say more? I certainly can. It's not so much that companies are often subsidized, or granted interest free loans, and other accomodations by their perspective Governments, this is basic Economic theory. Yet when jobs are lost, families are destroyed as they deteriorate into cylcical arguments over money (the number one reason marriages fail, after infidelity). I'll skip to the end-result, the moral fabric of our society is torn, and tattered beyond the shreds which are barely left. We need to protect ourselves, from ourselves (i.e greed). Unfortunately there are some of you reading this saying, don't give me that "Sermon" I wan't it cheap! This attitude derives from a limited mental capacity, and failure to see beyond one's own selfish needs. At this point, you need not look beyond your mirror to see what's wrong with this country. Complacency, greed, a fear-based, addictive society, perpetuated by those agitated by any social responsibility. The equation is as binary as your PC. If your not strong enough to sacrifice, then your weak. And that's fact based in economic, social, psychological science, not conjecture, and not one mans opinion. You want cheap memory, move to Hinschu, and see how cheap things are there.

This was written using legally imported true 4ns IC's, in good Ole Corsair Twin-XMS4000 memory.

[STEvil]

And this reply is written using good old BH-6 chips rebadged for Corsair use.. hehe 8-)

I think the problem is that we know that, but cant really think of an "efficient" way out of the loop because of how many it affects... and low prices look really nice to those of us on a budget 8-/

Hopefully that made some kind of sense.

EDIT

Typos are the work of the marketing devil.

[Hell-Fire]

Holy Snikeys Liquid!!!!

BTW...I am about sick and tired of hearing about A-Data any damn way. There, I said it. If its so good, how come I never even heard of it...or seen it locally?

Pfffft, I will stick with my HyperX thank you very much.

PS Liquid..only reason I dont have good ole Corsair in my rig is because of a compat issue.

[unregistered]

- Corsair has never had any -4 ICs
- the ITC lawyers are for the most part from the same law firm that represented Micron in their anti Rambus lawsuits
- Hynix does not make any -4 ICs either
- AData is using unmarked / private label Mosel Vitelic chips for their DDR500

[Hell-Fire]

Can ya give me a screenie to prove yer point of the Mosel chips and the DDR500 stick you are referring to?

[FragMagnet]

Originally posted by unregistered
- Corsair has never had any -4 ICs
- the ITC lawyers are for the most part from the same law firm that represented Micron in their anti Rambus lawsuits
- Hynix does not make any -4 ICs either
- AData is using unmarked / private label Mosel Vitelic chips for their DDR500

Ahhhhhhh ! Good ole Mosel Vitalic, I remember it kicking mucho azz in the bx days, I haven't heard anything about them for a long time.

[[SLC]Tachyon]

To be honest I couldn't care if the chips AData uses are "illegally imported" or not- the performance speaks for itself. :slobber:

It would be cool to see Mosel shipping out some incredible chips again. :)

[Maelstorm]

^^

I agree.

The fact is, I'm getting just as high or higher performance chips (or maybe not higher; overclocking is sometimes a gamble, after all) than more expensive Corsair chips. Comparing A-DATA's chips and their success to Corsair's, I would definitely go with the ADATA. I don't understand what you're complaining about. We're getting higher performance memory for cheaper, and you're complaining about it because precious Corsair isn't getting my money.

What was the point of this post again? Congrats on your results and all, and I don't exactly agree with people raining on people's parades, but I don't think that is an excuse to bash ADATA.

[STEvil]

He is saying that we are buying from the low bidder, the one that uses bad marketing practices to be able to undercut the next guys prices... that we dont normally bother to look into.

[Liquid3D]

This is from A-DATA's Site;

"There are only two winners: ¡§Pioneer¡¨ & ¡§Terminator¡¨
Not different from other lines of business, there are only two winners who can prevail in the DRAM module industry. You have to be either a pioneer who leads the path for others to follow or a terminator who puts an end to competition. Only with a full understanding of this fact can one expect to maintain an enduring competitive edge. A-DATA knows perfectly that it has yet to qualify as a terminator, so it must work harder on outrunning others. One fine example is that A-DATA was the first DRAM module supplier that started volume production of DDR400s in step with the new product launches by domestic and foreign chipset companies. A-DATA has once again won extensive recognition of its speed-to-market superiority." http://www.adata.com.tw/tw/news/Hot%20News-01-En.htm

Prior to the paragragh above there's this one;

"Simon Chen¡¦s Profile ¡V An Easy-Going, Down-to-Earth Entrepreneur

Simon Chen, who has set out from humble origins, always keeps a smile on his face. His friends believe Chen¡¦s success as an entrepreneur has much to do with his easy-going personality. Whenever a friend has something to be happy about, Simon Chen is always the first one who calls to say ¡§congratulations¡¨! As most people will find it fairly easy and natural to call him a friend, Chen certainly stands out from his peers in the DRAM module industry."


Perhaps I went off on a Liberal tangent AGAIN, but it was 4:30AM. Still their philsosophy it "terminate" the competition. That's fine, but what happened was they failed, and so instead practicing what he preache's he went and got illegal Loans.

I know that the much of this was triggered by the lawsuit between Micron, and Hynix. And i understand that you would go with Hynix, but your going to pay about the same that you would pay for Corsair, or OCZ unless their imported illegally. If there manufactured at their Oregon plan, the IC's ceratinly are not.

And here's a little info on the sate of Mosel Vitelic;
"Since at least October, Promos has been at the heart of a dispute between its parent companies, Infineon and Mosel Vitelic. The companies have been arguing over issues regarding chip pricing and Mosel's use of shares in the joint venture as collateral for bonds. As the disagreement escalated, Infineon stopped transferring technology to Promos and then cancelled its buying contract in January. Despite describing Promos as “one of the best performing fabs in Asia,” Schumacher said his company had little in common anymore with Mosel Vitelic.

When the Promos joint venture started, both parent companies wanted to be DRAM manufacturers, he said. Over the years, Infineon has stayed its course in DRAM, but Mosel has not, Schumacher indicated. “We are talking about a business where you are investing billions of dollars on technology and you want to do that with a partner that has the same vision, the same commitment and the financial resources to do so,” he said."

And if A-DATA is using Mosel Vitalic, fine. I stand corrected, however; their website is quite funny in it's semantic contradictons. One more point, I searched Msel Vitelic's site, and nowhere does it say their manufacturing 4ns IC's. Yet A-DATA is branding their blanks 4ns. Whyu isn't everyone jumping on A-DATA? After all people stomped on OCZ for rebranding IC's, we should be fair in our criticisms, maybe Lost Circuits will look into this one. :)

[Ewok]

"This attitude derives from a limited mental capacity, and failure to see beyond one's own selfish needs. At this point, you need not look beyond your mirror to see what's wrong with this country. Complacency, greed, a fear-based, addictive society, perpetuated by those agitated by any social responsibility."

After reading a fair few of your posts it seems to me you think you have an unlimited mental capacity that is much greater than everyone else, and you like to try and prove so on a regular basis. Well the fact is everyone else is living in the real world and you appear not to be.

If I can pay less for something that gives me the same or better performance then I will do so, as will everyone else in their right mind. That is the way of the world we live in, live with it and get over it.


And I think the topic if this post is deliberately misleading to get lots of people to view it, it has nothing to do with overclocking secrets at all and shouldnt even be in the overclocking forum.

[GVCryan]

I think this should be in soapbox as well, but since the OCZ posts hung around in XO for so long, I can let it slide.


My only point is this, since when have we, as overclockers, been so interested in the business practices of a company.

Every day, I hear a new complaint.

Rambus is mean to DDR makers, therefore we shouldn't use them, even they produced the absolute best performing modules in the early p4 days.

ATI's presidents are selling off stock!! We should tell them to go to hell, even though they produce the best performing video cards that nearly all of us have in our boxes.

nVidia has too many optimizations, which, although invisible to the naked eye, make their cards run faster. Screw you nVidia!!!

OCZ is run out of my basement, er some others guys basement, er a shop in Indiana, er ... they use a picture of a building that ins't theres on their site, er they don't FAB THERE OWN CHIPS!!! OCZ is crap even though it produces the best modules you can "legally" buy.

Swiftech can't post a 3dmark score!!!

MSI shows OPPS score in their advertising, where is the billion million dollars he is owed?

And now, we are §§§§§ing about finding a back alley scource for an excellent chip that, unfortunately is from a company with a bad business practice of excepting a damn savings bond from the government (slighly more complicated, but you get my drift).

All of this fanboy whining has left me tired of the overclcoking scene. Instead of assissting our fellow overclcokers, we bash products and the companies that create them, more upon their practices than the product itself.

I can see why the internet is a dying communtiy and an emerging TV commercial.

[st0nedpenguin]

Originally posted by Ewok
If I can pay less for something that gives me the same or better performance then I will do so, as will everyone else in their right mind. That is the way of the world we live in, live with it and get over it.

I really don't want to take sides on this burgeoning debate, but that is exactly the kind of attitude that sees hundreds if not thousands of children die each year in sweatshops around the world.

Just because it happens, doesn't make it right...

§§§§ing Capitalism.

[st0nedpenguin]

Originally posted by GVCryan
I can see why the internet is a dying communtiy and an emerging TV commercial.

Maybe because everyone only gives a damn about the bottom line...

Money...

[jinu117]

LMAO Liquid3D,
I just had to. This isn't the first time in last decade US decided to put high tariff on Asian manufacturer of memory, etc to "prevent" internal manufacutures going into major mayhem when they start loosing that competitve edge.... in fact I haven't heard much from US memory manufacturers lately have we?
BS about the illegal subsidization. There is not a single Korean name brand that hasn't been subsized either up to only about decade ago. (Samsung, Daewoo, Hyundai, LG, etc, etc) So... they should put Tariff on this at that % too eh?
What it sounds like to me reading beyond the line items is that US will PROHIBIT fair trade (or put FAIR TRADE in someone's mind :rolleyes: ) in order to save jobs here. (which actually doesn't work well on long term.... companies which lost competitve edge will usually go belly up if there isn't a big momentum change ... or... "ILLEGAL" subsidizing by government happens :rolleyes:
This move alone will drive cost of memory in whole industry up in US while lowering cost of memory in Asian market by quite a lot! (Last time US decided to put 50% tarriff on Korean semiconductor, I remember price of memory going through roof to 160% of previous price for months while in S. Korea price of it plumetting to 50% of previous price). I can assure you there will be A LOT of black market trading that will be happening etc until the tarriff is waved. And some hard feeling among companies and industries as well as end users stuck with memories of unknown origin (so much for warranty eh?... I am talking about general users who just bought it from some store)
Its all politics... nothing else as usual. One country's interest vs anothers. Nothing "immoral" or "illegal" as some might want to put it about it to those decision makers who put tariff in... :rolleyes: (Of course, they have to act convinced to us citizens... just like the war we went through recently even if some of them just wern't).

[zakelwe]

What actually is the overclocking secret with Hynix and A-Data mentioned in the title ? I came into this thread, as most others did I guess, trying to find out what made them so fast so we could use this as an advantage.

I think you ought to be fined, Liquid3D, for misrepresentation ;)


Anyhow, are American import tarriffs fair ? :-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2146108.stm

Er, no. Pot calling the kettle black once again. It is very unwise to bring politics into overclocking .

Regards

Andy

[st0nedpenguin]

What you don't seem to be considering though is the simple fact that business practices vary from country to country, what would be classed as illegal in the US, and would end up with people in prison, is common practice in many Eastern countries.

Look at Japan for example, it could be argued that one of the reasons they have become so successful in the electronics and car markets is because whilst they are free to employ whatever tactics they like in the international marketplace, they place strict restrictions on the other countries to stop them competing in Japan. When was the last time the US insisted on safety checks for EVERY single car rolling onto it's docks for example? Because the Japanese have done this many times in the past.

I'm not turning this into a Japan bashing mission either, merely using this as an example, what we may consider underhand and dirty tactics, isn't always viewed that way elsewhere.

[[SLC]Tachyon]

Originally posted by st0nedpenguin
I really don't want to take sides on this burgeoning debate, but that is exactly the kind of attitude that sees hundreds if not thousands of children die each year in sweatshops around the world.

Just because it happens, doesn't make it right...

§§§§ing Capitalism.

Do you really think that a 100 little Asian kids are fabbing ADATA's RAM in a sweatshop? No offense, but I doubt it. Those would have to be some pretty smart kids. :eek:

[TodB]

Originally posted by Liquid3D


Here's the problem. A-DATA is most likely using Hynix 4ns IC's, from the Hinschu Fab. Those same IC's which have them in the followng penalty phase with the ITC. [/B]

Yep, it's REALLY 4ns Hynix..... I saw the thread and ask just one simple Q who I know will answer that Q.... and there you go: "Yes, A-DATA ARE using 4ns Hynix.... don't know what's under the HyperX PC4000 HS though...."

[st0nedpenguin]

Well no, I don't think there are a bunch of kids working away in a sweatshop making A-DATA RAM, I was referring to the attitude of "I'll buy it cheap and §§§§ the labour" that was displayed above.

Would you rather have a few kids die so you can buy your goods at a lower price?

[TheDogFather]

My Adata came this morning, god bless it. :)

If you want to worry about bad practice, try looking a little closer to home. A better use of your time though, would be to go outside.

[st0nedpenguin]

Originally posted by TheDogFather
My Adata came this morning, god bless it. :)

If you want to worry about bad practice, try looking a little closer to home. A better use of your time though, would be to go outside.

Well, if you want to play that game, a better use of your time would be for you also to stop playing with your computer and go outside, or perhaps even donate a little time to charity work, but, I won't hold my breath.

[jinu117]

Okay... straight back to (semi) topic...
So how does the new a-data run?
(And if you want to talk about starving children in US, there are THINGS you can do to help. Go out and do it!) --> Positive mannerism speaking here... I go to my mission oriented church after all :P

[st0nedpenguin]

Originally posted by jinu117
(And if you want to talk about starving children in US, there are THINGS you can do to help. Go out and do it

Yeah, I'll definitely second that, even if you just throw a little money in the direction of a charity, it helps.

[Dr. Possum]

This drama is a little too preachy and heavy-handed. I'm changing the channel.




~DP

[TodB]

Originally posted by jinu117
Okay... straight back to (semi) topic...
So how does the new a-data run?


Well... yep, it's running good allright....

[Hell-Fire]

Geezus Liquid...WTH have you started here man?

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

Its the same idea as saying I can buy my Rolex legit from a retailer, or buy it from some guy that stole it from another guy. Both work and perform the same....buttttttttttttttttttt.....

Being the poor college student I am, I am always looking at the performance/price ratio. Its a hard thing to turn away a great performer that costs way less thats it rival..however, if how they are marketing and selling their product is geared towards putting other guys outta business..then not sure if I am all for it or not.

In the short haul, if A-Data keeps performing and their prices remain low, then that may force other companies to either lower their prices, bank on their good name and hope they can still sell at their prices, or go out of business all together because the profit margin is now shot to chit. Now, a gr8 market is one where there is competition between vendors for our money, so anything that may lower the prices ACROSS the entire market isnt a bad thing...but what happens if Company A hammers several competitors into the ground...they will of course then raise their prices because now they have a captive audience that has to buy from them or from generic vendors that sell crappy performing products.

Why does this sound so familiar to me...oh yes...COUGH::MICROSHAFT::COUGH....

Basic Economics people.....but also a choice.....great performance and a fantastic price versus other vendors...hard to say no. A fact is a fact...with a crap economy, everyone has to grab the best price per product!

[Hell-Fire]

TodB...no offense to you man...that IS great fsb action, but those timings totally blow.

I am betting that something little slower with tighter timings will have better performance.

[TodB]

Originally posted by Hëll ‡ Fîrë
TodB...no offense to you man...that IS great fsb action, but those timings totally blow.

I am betting that something little slower with tighter timings will have better performance.
Yeah, I know... but more voltage and a tag tigher timings - 100MB/s more, but the stability..... ain't worth it for me.... I like the 24/7 action..... ;)

[TheDogFather]

@ stonedpenguin

I wasnt directing my comments at you, and I may have been a little out of order, for which I apolagise.

I am making good use of my time, and purposely avoid the general discusion sections of the various computer related forums I frequent, because I have a lot of things I would rather do, and have little interest in most of the views expressed in them.

When im in the Extreme Overclocking section of this forum, and I see a thread titled 'The Overclocking secret behind Hynix and A-DATA' I kind of expected to read something of use to me as a Adata owner. Not to be conned into reading someones views on why we should pay more, because its unfair to america (the united states of unfair imo).

As for this 'perhaps even donate a little time to charity work, but, I won't hold my breath.' Dont presume to know anything about me other than a interest in computers.

[Liquid3D]

Here's the thing Guys (and Girls if any. Oh another topic) I enjoy rattling the proverbial cage. It allow's me to see the true colors of some (oh did I say colors, that sound like "colored" better be careful) of people I clock-around with.

For myself, i used to be a die-hard capitalist. I didn't care about anything except the acquisition of wealth. After i got just about everything I ever wanted, I relaized it was boring. I came from money, rebelled at my family, then went back to chasing money. Then after breaking my back, and not wanting to depend on my family, i chose to become independent with nothing. I live in Low-Income Housing, sure it's in Newport RI, and the building I live in if converted to condo's, each unit would go for $275,000, so it's not that bad. I can see the entire Bay from my third floor room, and in that bay are $2-million hole's in the water everywhere. However, i'm surounded by people who never graduated High School, suffer brain damage from years of alcohol and drug abuse, and/or are mentally ill. This building is supposed to be for elderly and handicapped, but there's plenty of 19 year old addicts, who would rob your room in two minutes given the chance.
So you and my family ask me why i stay. Well this is my way of giving back. I volunteer as the Pateint Advocate at the Methadone Clinic down the street, work in adult education, and humanservices assist those in this building (and at the clinic) who want to obtain their GED's, or retrain, or just find an A.A meeting. I volunteer at soup kitchens, when I'm able to walk, as I used to be a Fine Dinning Chef, prior to returning to College (for the thrid time) to study Neuroscience. I wanted to stucy Neurophilosophy since I kicked my own drug, and alcohol habit 19 years ago, but my family said "Look in the Paper, you don't see any add's for Philosopher's do you?" So I departed from their control, and after being an extreme surfer living in Hawaii, and Costa Rica for a year in each place, and racing mountian bikes from the East Coast to the West Coast for years, I then broke my back in a race. AFter selling everything I owned (although I still have a watch three times better then a Rolex) I had to collect Social Security Disability. My experience with what it is truly like to feel the intense prejudice of poverty, inspired me to do what I'm doing. I'm writing three books, and have ben published numerous times in the newspapaer for my articles on the Newport RI poverty contradiction. This was once the wealthiest resort town in the USA. It made the L.I. Hamptons, and Beverly Hills CA, look like slums. This was prior to Income Tax and social security (and people probably didn't want to hear that either, in any Forum). Today they take tours through those mansions.

So I'm giving back every day, and that's why I tend to see capitalism (I don't care what country it's in and what Politics' their practicing. In the hearts of the greedy it's materialsim, Capitalism's requirement for membership) I may point it out. I've been told by a very knowledgeable person in the semiconductor industry the IC's A-DATA is "behave" like Hynix. But that doesn't really matter, and I know this isn't a Soap Opera. But i don't read every topic at this site, so why would anyone stop in read, and post their "changing the channel?" You see that's the same thing, they just had to say something.

I guess what inspired me was all the bashing that went on about OCZ, and anyone who thinks their doing anything different from any other manufactuer in so far as purchasing blanks and branding them, is simply showing their ignorance. And if there's one thing that is at the heart of poverty, and the detrioration of our sociological state, then it's ignorance. If OCZ can manufacture SPD into DDR333 and have it run at 2.8V or less at 255FSB CAS2.5, it's highly unlikely their NOT doing that in someone's basement. And just as we had the right to criticize OCZ, I have the right to criticize A-DATA.

In summation (bet your relieved) I cannot abide the "Moral Majority" so do not think that's where I'm coming from. I studied Anthropology, Ancient history, and all the other sciences, and one thing is certain. Since the first civilization (by anthropological criteria) Ancient Sumner, they had slaves, and they had a class seperated society. What scares me, is thus; just as Noam Chomsky discovered the LAD (language acquisition device), peratining to UG (Universal Grammer) was an innate biological, and genetic part of the brain. it's obvious to me so is the need for greed, and since the beginning of time, those with integrity held the last line of defense against chaos. I think there's a lot of families of dead 19 year olds, who joined the Military trying to find a better life, who are now questioning why we need to burn oil in cars, as the Polar Caps melt, when we put a man on the moon almost 40 years ago, and we did that without the microchip.

I step down from the soap-box now.

[Holst]

Liquid3d, have you recently been watching one of my favorite films "good will hunting" your rant is supprisingly similar to Wills rant when he is given the codebreaking job.

just an observation..

US import taxes are there to protect US interests.
As a good american you should pay these taxes and not buy smuggled producs.

BUT.. as for your initial question of memory pricing im not sure your on the right track at all.

Are you sure that corsair is more expensive because there paying the duty on the hynix chips when the adata stuff has no duty?
Thats not the only reason there more expensive.
Why pay for corsairs US staff, nice heatspreaders and advertising?

I do think that the current high prices in memory are unjustified, but its just down to economics, if people are willing to pay the premium then corsair will charge it, and good luck to them.

Also, if the gvernment are too slow to legislate againt Adata for using hynix chips (if they can, i dont knwo much about US tax law)
Why dont corsair just swich to the adata chips, dropping the price to the consumer?
Admitteldly this will loose tax dollars, but thats the administrations fault for not keeping there eye on the ball.

This then leads us into a situation where im "recomending" much tighter and wider ranging taxes so the goverment can cover these types of loopholes.
This is not a good thing!!

Ive sort of lost where im going now..

I think the point im trying to make is that wit the current US dominance in the world economy, its an impossible task to ballance US interest over genuine fair trade.
The US are pushing other countrys very hard to keep themselves on the top, you shouldnt moan too much if the little fish push back sometimes.

[STEvil]

I'll keep this short:

Thanks, Liquid, for being the bigger guy and pointint out all this, rather than sitting back and letting us who dont go actively looking for it never find out. Reguardless of whether it is a rant worthy of the soap box, this is a good thing to know. Myself, I will buy from known good sources, as will maybe some others now. Sure it might be a bit more expensive, but maybe we will get a break occassionally and get something cheap, maybe not. Some of us might even feel we are doing some kind of retroactive good by purchasing from someone who does not fund their company illegally, who knows.

Standing up to point out wrongs, whether others choose to take the information into consideration or not, is a sign of intelligence to me. Chastising someone for merely pointing something out is not.

[Raybo]

My first post!!


I will buy what I like and to heck with all of you that do not like it.


Some posts are to long and full of propaganda, and some peoples posts are full of their own values.


Why do I have to be an instigator?


Raybo

[Hell-Fire]

Pffffffffffffffffffft...

Well, guess thats one way to make friends here Raybo.

BTW, the proper Vcore to get your 2100+ to over 2.4GHz is 3.2v.

Just so ya know. :hehe:

Also, of course you can buy what ever you want...doesnt mean ya have to be an ass my friend.

You more or less totally contradicted yourself bro.

Liquid is pointing out that he will buy what he prefers, and you are bashing him for speaking his mind.

Keep your thoughts to yourself until you have a relative point to bring to a discussion.


Why do I have to be an instigator?


What?

[TechTones]

Originally posted by Ewok
"This attitude derives from a limited mental capacity, and failure to see beyond one's own selfish needs. At this point, you need not look beyond your mirror to see what's wrong with this country. Complacency, greed, a fear-based, addictive society, perpetuated by those agitated by any social responsibility."

After reading a fair few of your posts it seems to me you think you have an unlimited mental capacity that is much greater than everyone else, and you like to try and prove so on a regular basis. Well the fact is everyone else is living in the real world and you appear not to be.

If I can pay less for something that gives me the same or better performance then I will do so, as will everyone else in their right mind. That is the way of the world we live in, live with it and get over it.


And I think the topic if this post is deliberately misleading to get lots of people to view it, it has nothing to do with overclocking secrets at all and shouldnt even be in the overclocking forum.

I couldn't agree with you more.....

[TechTones]

Originally posted by Liquid3D
Here's the thing Guys (and Girls if any. Oh another topic) I enjoy rattling the proverbial cage. It allow's me to see the true colors of some (oh did I say colors, that sound like "colored" better be careful) of people I clock-around with.

For myself, i used to be a die-hard capitalist. I didn't care about anything except the acquisition of wealth. After i got just about everything I ever wanted, I relaized it was boring. I came from money, rebelled at my family, then went back to chasing money. Then after breaking my back, and not wanting to depend on my family, i chose to become independent with nothing. I live in Low-Income Housing, sure it's in Newport RI, and the building I live in if converted to condo's, each unit would go for $275,000, so it's not that bad. I can see the entire Bay from my third floor room, and in that bay are $2-million hole's in the water everywhere. However, i'm surounded by people who never graduated High School, suffer brain damage from years of alcohol and drug abuse, and/or are mentally ill. This building is supposed to be for elderly and handicapped, but there's plenty of 19 year old addicts, who would rob your room in two minutes given the chance.
So you and my family ask me why i stay. Well this is my way of giving back. I volunteer as the Pateint Advocate at the Methadone Clinic down the street, work in adult education, and humanservices assist those in this building (and at the clinic) who want to obtain their GED's, or retrain, or just find an A.A meeting. I volunteer at soup kitchens, when I'm able to walk, as I used to be a Fine Dinning Chef, prior to returning to College (for the thrid time) to study Neuroscience. I wanted to stucy Neurophilosophy since I kicked my own drug, and alcohol habit 19 years ago, but my family said "Look in the Paper, you don't see any add's for Philosopher's do you?" So I departed from their control, and after being an extreme surfer living in Hawaii, and Costa Rica for a year in each place, and racing mountian bikes from the East Coast to the West Coast for years, I then broke my back in a race. AFter selling everything I owned (although I still have a watch three times better then a Rolex) I had to collect Social Security Disability. My experience with what it is truly like to feel the intense prejudice of poverty, inspired me to do what I'm doing. I'm writing three books, and have ben published numerous times in the newspapaer for my articles on the Newport RI poverty contradiction. This was once the wealthiest resort town in the USA. It made the L.I. Hamptons, and Beverly Hills CA, look like slums. This was prior to Income Tax and social security (and people probably didn't want to hear that either, in any Forum). Today they take tours through those mansions.

So I'm giving back every day, and that's why I tend to see capitalism (I don't care what country it's in and what Politics' their practicing. In the hearts of the greedy it's materialsim, Capitalism's requirement for membership) I may point it out. I've been told by a very knowledgeable person in the semiconductor industry the IC's A-DATA is "behave" like Hynix. But that doesn't really matter, and I know this isn't a Soap Opera. But i don't read every topic at this site, so why would anyone stop in read, and post their "changing the channel?" You see that's the same thing, they just had to say something.

I guess what inspired me was all the bashing that went on about OCZ, and anyone who thinks their doing anything different from any other manufactuer in so far as purchasing blanks and branding them, is simply showing their ignorance. And if there's one thing that is at the heart of poverty, and the detrioration of our sociological state, then it's ignorance. If OCZ can manufacture SPD into DDR333 and have it run at 2.8V or less at 255FSB CAS2.5, it's highly unlikely their NOT doing that in someone's basement. And just as we had the right to criticize OCZ, I have the right to criticize A-DATA.

In summation (bet your relieved) I cannot abide the "Moral Majority" so do not think that's where I'm coming from. I studied Anthropology, Ancient history, and all the other sciences, and one thing is certain. Since the first civilization (by anthropological criteria) Ancient Sumner, they had slaves, and they had a class seperated society. What scares me, is thus; just as Noam Chomsky discovered the LAD (language acquisition device), peratining to UG (Universal Grammer) was an innate biological, and genetic part of the brain. it's obvious to me so is the need for greed, and since the beginning of time, those with integrity held the last line of defense against chaos. I think there's a lot of families of dead 19 year olds, who joined the Military trying to find a better life, who are now questioning why we need to burn oil in cars, as the Polar Caps melt, when we put a man on the moon almost 40 years ago, and we did that without the microchip.

I step down from the soap-box now.

It seems to me you're always mentioning OCZ somewhere, somehow in your writings. I also get the feeling you're pitching for them to put a clean face on them. Just so you know I don't buy it....

Please don't reply cause I'm not interested

[Dr. Possum]

First off, why should we be held accountable for supporting a company when we didn't know it was corrupt? You posting this was the first I'd heard of this. Secondly, I second GVCryan's statement, why does it matter? So a company did something wrong, now they're getting hosed for it...what does it matter? I buy stuff all the time, I can't mount an investigation to see if the company's practices are morally sound every time I purchase something. My world doesn't unravel each time a company is in violation, much less one of this kind. I second the one person's statement, you must be on Cloud 9 to think people aren't gonna buy what is cheapest and best. If Hynix committed any sort of serious violation, I'm sure I and others would be against them, and wouldn't think twice about boycotting their goods. The fact is, what they did isn't anything major, and certainly not anything new to the world. For an example of overall degradation of morals in the world, I find this incident to be a very poor choice.




~DP

[jinu117]

Interesting....
Bottom line, if this law passes and we see huge markup on memory prices in US. There WILL BE huge smuggling activities. Unless buying from major retailor, (I've seen this happening almost decade ago), your chances of getting legit memory becomes major issue. (I've seen shops that had 9+ branches going into this kind of illegitimate behavior)
If you are shop owner and if you can get nice mercedez in a month for just doing something against your conscience... (believe me there are plenty of "innocent" smugglers that will do it for free plane tickets etc.. )... what is to stop them? All they need is some connection back in S. Korea for wholesale price of the thing... (or they can just grab retail price and still make hefty profit)...
Also, I will tell you what happened to memory pricing after that...
IT NEVER went down to where it was before whole fiasco happened for WHOLE 1 year... Why? Micron, etc didn't have compelling reason to lower their prices and samsung, etc didn't see the reason to lower price too much again only to renenect the embargo. They dealt with their surpluses and started making new fabrication for future generation of chip with left over profit -_-;
Also if worried about jobs in US... check this out.
http://www.hynix.com/allnews/eng/preng_readA.jsp?NEWS_DATE=2003-03-13:11:48:04&CurrentPageNo=2&SearchKind=4&SearchWord=&SELECT_DATE=
Well, what can we say? Lemme tell you, the only one who benefits on this decision is the government which will get money both from sales tax as well as embargo. Smart eh? Keep trying to keep the internal economy up by promoting growth and advancement is one thing but flat our sheltering is like keeping over grown child in house and keep paying for his credit card bill IMHO.

[eva2000]

From Hynix regarding USA ITC decision http://www.hynix.com/allnews/eng/preng_readA.jsp?NEWS_DATE=2003-07-24:09:46:06&CurrentPageNo=1&SearchKind=&SearchWord=&SELECT_DATE=



07/24/2003 Hynix Says U.S. ITC Decision On DRAM Case Is “Very Disappointing,” But It Will Not Affect Hynix’s Overall Business Operation Worldwide

Seoul, Korea, July 24, 2003 -- An official of Hynix today stated that “Hynix is very disappointed by the International Trade Commission’s affirmative injury determination in the DRAMs case.” He cautioned, however, that it was difficult to offer much comment on the ITC’s determination because the ITC’s written rationale was not yet available. “Today we just learned the outcome, not the reasons why.”

According to the official, Hynix will receive the ITC’s written rationale in a couple of weeks, and then Hynix will review its options. Two options are possible: (1) appealing the ITC’s decision to the Court of International Trade, and/or (2) having the Government of Korea appeal the decision to the WTO. Both options could be pursued at the same time.

The official also said that today’s determination, although disappointing, will not bring any significant changes in Hynix’s DRAM production and business operation. He said that Hynix has prepared a thorough plan in advance to minimize the impact of any unfavorable ITC determination. For example, “Hynix will increase the production of DRAMs in its Eugene, Oregon fab, which is not subject to the CVD duty imposition, to continue to provide quality DRAMs to its U.S. customers.” “Therefore, our existing customers in the U.S. will not be affected at all by today’s decision,” the official emphasized.

so price of Hynix and if Adata uses Hynix, in USA will remain the same in the long medium to long term I guess

As to this thread, majority of people will buy based on their own wallets.. it ain't greed when people want to save money - even those resulting unemployed folks you mentioned in first post, would do the same thing - buy based on what they can afford and/or willing to pay ;)

i.e. when you only have $25 for a weeks groceries and you had to pick between brand name expensive bread and no-name brand bread, a person would pick the cheaper of the two, without thought for who's job is on the line at the brand name bread company

Maslows Hierarchy of human needs would dictate that our most basic needs would be physiological survival, food, shelter etc - and our bank balance is integral to this.

Yes it maybe wrong and illegal for what Hynix did in the past, but majority (not all) end users really can't afford to care - it's sad but it's reality

[Liquid3D]

Thank you Stevil, Hell & Fire, and Holst. I guess you guys knowing me a little better know this not a rage based Post, intended to "hurt" anyone. No I haven't seen Good Will Hunting in years, I'm an original.

To other's I'll adrress a few issues. First of all, I don't ALWAY's support OCZ. Having not read enough of my posts, your not in possession of all facts, which puts you at a disadvantage. One reason i do stick-up for OCZ is ththe following; two years ago when I applied to Brown University's Neuroscience program i had absolutely no way of affording PC-hardware due to my back injury. I was in need of a full 1GB of memory, with which to run Parallel Distributive Processing software. The financial aid office suggested I write PC companies, because they sometimes donate PC hardware to students such as myself, financially indigent, and/or disabled. The only company at that time who got back to me were OCZ. I'd purchased their memory when working PT, months prior and thought it performed well. It was the first PC3200 offered at Newegg at that time. Anyway they not only returned my email they sent me 2x512MB sticks of PC3200. The few times companies have donated hardware, I had to send copies of my FASFA, and material from the school, as well as Social Security Disability paperwork.This is so they can write-off the donation as a tax free gift. OCZ never even asked, and i didn't write them saying "Send me memory, and I'll say your memory's great". In fact I've been very critical of OCZ at times, and even wrote them expressing what I'd felt. However I do beleive Ryan and Bhulinder are two very kind, and generous people. When I needed that memory two years ago, they were there to help me. They asked for nothing in return, and never have. I believ what they did for me was honorable, and a reflection of their integrity. This is the first time in two years I even mentioned their donating memory to me, so it's not that they even wanted recognition. Greedy and deceitful people (as a few here have claimed about the company) espcially in business, are most certainly not going to give ANYTHING away. It's a complete contradiction of those claims. This is why I defend them from time to time.

Another person here stated I "am proving I'm intellectual". Perhaps I am, and will actually take a look at that. You see, I beleive in what's known as self-actualization. Even if criticism comes from a un-healthy place, meaning the person just doesn't like me, that doesn't negate the validity of their observation. Ill admit therre are times I write to impress. Having read, and written countless essay's in Nuerophilosophy, perhaps I emulate that writing style. I won't however apologize for imprioving my vocabulary. Sure this is a "Soap-boxy" post. However I notice there are those who seem unable to curb their need to say something, so it must have touched a nerve. It's contradictory to say, "this is my first post...why do I have to be an instigator?" you don't HAVE to do anything, and you didn't have to reply.

I'm not claiming Corsair is charging more because their paying tariff's on Hynix, I don't know Corsair is using Hynix in their PC4000. I only read some EETimes articles about Hynix, and misintepreting that as complaining doesn't really concern me. I was responding to a reply "I'll buy what I want, no matter where its' from." That's fine, I'm not here to tell you how to live. If you want to expand your mind, or your social conscious that's up to you, but the fact you replied may be indicative your not living to your full potential. And I do admit I'm preachy, and even condescending at times. Those are issues, i need to work on for my own inner peace, not just others. So thank's for the criticism, as well as the support. I hope to grow from both. And it is OK to talk about things other then overclocking at times. One reason I wrote this post, is just about evrytime I post bandwidth benchmarks using Corsair or OCZ, someone comes along an says they got simliar or better results with A-DATA or another brand? It doesn't bother me if it's just sharing, but it's as if their angry when they write it. As if their judging my decision to use Corsair or OCZ? All I can say to those people is if your dissapointed with Corsair or OCZ write them, but why attempt to minimize the accomplishements of others? Yes that is something I will "complain" (as people say) about.K time to move on. :)

[TechTones]

Originally posted by Liquid3D
Thank you Stevil, Hell & Fire, and Holst. I guess you guys knowing me a little better know this not a rage based Post, intended to "hurt" anyone. No I haven't seen Good Will Hunting in years, I'm an original.

To other's I'll adrress a few issues. First of all, I don't ALWYA support OCZ. Having noit read enough of my posts, your not in possession of all facts, which puts you at a disadvantage. One reason i do stick-up for OCZ is this. Two years ago whren I applied to Brown University's Neurscience program i had absolutely no way of affording a full 1GB of memory, with which to run Parallel Distributive Processing software. The financial aid office suggested I write PC companies. because they sometimes donate PC hardware to students such as myself, financially indigent, and disabled. The only company at that time who got back to me were OCZ. I'd purchased their memory when working PT, and thought it performed well It was the first PC3200 offered at Newegg at that time. Anyway they not only returnd my email they sent me 2x512MB sticks of PC3200. The few times companies have donated hardware, I had to send copies of my FASFA, and material from the school, as well as Social Security Disability paperwork.This is so they can write-off the donation as a tax fre gift. OCZ never even asked, and i didn't write them saying "Send me memory, and I'll say your memory's great". In fact I've been very critical of OCZ at times, and even wrote them expressing what I'd thought prior to posting it anywhere. In a capitalistic society I find it honorable, and a reflection of their integrity, and generosity they donated memory they could have sold. In that respect I find them to be well above average. This is the firt time in two years I even mentioned their donating memory to me, so it's not that they even wanted recognition.

Another person here stated I "am proving I'm intellectual". Perhaps I am, and will actually take a look at that. You see, I beleive in what's known as self-actualization. Eeven if criticism comes from a un-healthy place, meaning the person just doens't like me, that doesn't negate the validity of their observation. I do tend to employ an esoteric writing style. Having read, and written countless essay's in Nuerophilosophy, perhaps I emulate that writing style. I won't however apologize for imprioving my vocabulary. Sure this is a "Soap-boxy" post. However I notice there are those who seem unable to curb their need to say something, so it must have touched a nerve. It's contradictory to say, "this is my first post, why do I hjave to be an instigator" you don't HAVE to do anything, and you didn't have to reply.

I'm not claiming Corsair is charging more because their paying tariff's on Hynix, I don't know Corsair is using Hynix in their PC4000. I only read some EETimes articles about Hynix, and misintepreting that as complaining doesn't really concern me. I was responding to a reply "I'll buy what I want, no matter where its' from." That's fine, I'm not here to tell you how to live. If you want to expand your mind, or your social conscious that's up to you, but the fact you replied may be indicative your not living to your full potential. And I do admit I'm preachy, and even condescending at times. Those are issues, i need to work on for my own inner peace, not just others. So thank's for the criticism, as well as the support. I hope to grow from both.

OK now we know your life story. Can you stop pimping OCZ now? These forums still have the most fantastic hardware people I'd eve want to meet,but in the past few months this place is turning into a platform to gently advertise and pimp products especially one company's ram. I for one am tired of your off topic posts.

[Liquid3D]

edit: Sorry sometimes it's hard to hear the truth. You may be right in that claim.

[TechTones]

Originally posted by Liquid3D
Then do me a favor and find somewhere else to be your miserable little self. This is the direction the conversation has taken. If you don't like it read a book. Try non-fiction.

No, no, this is where YOU took the conversation.
And I think you should read a book too, it's called Reality by the author Life....in your case this would be fiction.

[Liquid3D]

I apologize. And I'll try to not "pimp" products as you said. There may be some truth to that claim.

[TechTones]

Apology accepted :toast:

[TechTones]

Hey Liquid,

as a token of peace try out this cool program which highlights the ability of a Dx 9.0 complient video card. Check it out it's way neat...

Might take a little while for the url to come up.

!Peace! :wave:

http://www.daionet.gr.jp/~masa/rthdribl/index.html

[STEvil]

Peace is good 8-)

[TechTones]

Originally posted by STEvil
Peace is good 8-)

But peace of ass is better..;)

[Hell-Fire]

But peace of ass is better..

<-----In his best Butthead voice::

You said ass! :hehe:

[karmakid]

Pretty soon my cousin/your cousin, employed in California, Texas, or Colorado, is jobless? All because I forgot to read the location of another forum member challenging the cost of my memory.

so your only thinking about your fellow countrymen?
USA is one of the richest country in the world, it should afford ppl being jobless. other countries like korea arent as rich, they need their jobs more than you do ;)
all you need to do is stop that charity mumbo-jumbo and start paying taxes so the charity wont be needed. Taxes _ARE_ charity ! for you and all of your friends the problem is only the narrowmindness of the ppl peying it cause they dont see what it does. and if your starting this kind of thread your example isnt very well picked. Nike, Coca-Cola are the real evol companies so start bothering those instead ;)

[Hell-Fire]

so your only thinking about your fellow countrymen?
USA is one of the richest country in the world, it should afford ppl being jobless. other countries like korea arent as rich, they need their jobs more than you do
all you need to do is stop that charity mumbo-jumbo and start paying taxes so the charity wont be needed. Taxes _ARE_ charity ! for you and all of your friends the problem is only the narrowmindness of the ppl peying it cause they dont see what it does. and if your starting this kind of thread your example isnt very well picked. Nike, Coca-Cola are the real evol companies so start bothering those instead

Oh god...dont get me started on the whole thing about USA being such a rich country! Currently the economy is the worst is has been in more than 30years, reaching the proportions of the Reagan era....

Also, it is the worst job market since WW II my friend.

A guy I know that graduated from a Top 5 Engineering school is now working as a cashier.

Get yer facts straight before you go America Bashing!!

[STEvil]

Good way to keep an eye on the US economy: Watch the CDN $. When its up, the US economy is down.

[Major]

Can someone send me the Cliff notes for this thread ! (I should have stayed in school)

[Liquid3D]

Originally posted by TechTones
Hey Liquid, as a token of peace try out this cool program which highlights the ability of a Dx 9.0 complient video card. Check it out it's way neat...Might take a little while for the url to come up.
!Peace! :wave: Thank's I'm downloading that program now, I can't understand the language, but I've never seen Pic's like that before, really good find.

I hope you caught the joke in my last Post about OCZ, it wasn't meant to be factitious. I thought you might find it funny.
And again I sincerely apologize for my personal attack. Sometimes I get defensive. And pertaining to OCZ, I guess I shouldn't feel I have to defend them the rest of my life because they were good to me two years ago, but I'm a grateful person However; I do think your right, and perhaps I should allow others to express their opinions about OCZ without attacking them because they helped in the past. After all if an issue about performance is valid, and I'm contradicting it based on a favor they did me, then that's dishonest, and unfair to the person expressing their opinion. SO that's that. I glad you accepted my apology, and thanks again for that link.
Is that a benchmarking program, or more like a demo?

OH Karmakid I hear what your saying. I lived in Costa Rica for a year. I packed my surfboard, and bag, and went by myself to the most isolated non-english speaking, non-tourist area, (of course it had good surf) and I met the kindest people ever there. While many American's are materially wealthy, their spiritually bankrupt. AT least some of us not all. So NO it's not just America I care about. While living in Costa Rica, the people were so kind, they would invite me into their homes almost every night for dinner. Here I only get asked to dinner about four times yearly. And I used to go to attend church at that time I lived in Central America, so when they saw me a 7:00AM Mass every morning they immediately came to respect me. I almost moved there, and was going to teach English, but their economy is Third-world level so I thought it unfair for me to take a job from someone else. Anyway during SeMana Santa (Easter) I even carried the Statue of Jesus through the town with the people. While there I lived with two Italian guys from Milan who opened an Inn, and almost went to stay in their house i Italy, but it was in a non-english speaking region, and I had a hard enough time in the Spanish speaking town I was in (Jaco, on Costa Rica's West Coast). SO I do have some wordly experience. But also what was said is true. Americans are really hurting. It's a shame becauuse even in Costa Rica they thought I was rich, but people don't understand the cost of living here, and the majority of this country are hard working people struggling to make ends meet. Were always portrayed by the truly welathy ass's. Like I said I live in a low income housing, and although I'm still wealthy compared to a Costa Rican it's all relative, but people are really hurting here. I used to earn $10 an hour as a Line Chef in 1990, when I applied for a PT job at a Hotel here in Newport (last year, 12 years later) that gets $300 a night for rooms they offrered me $9 per hour. I made $25 per hour in Hawaii, but the cost of living there is insane. America may be the richest country, but the facts are 99% of the wealth is owned by less then 10% of the richest people.

I learned a lesson about bringing up this topic, but I still think it's healthy were all communicating. Here we are all equal, because this is about PC's, of course I can't afford a 256MB 9800, and others can, But I have things others don't so it's relative. But what is cool is that we can discuss things. Even though this is a harwdare forum, this conversation may be more healthy then the United Nations, because some of us will walk away learning somehitng about others, and possibly growing. And that's always good. Bottom line slinging insuklts at each other doesn't resolve anything. And some people said stuff that was hurtful to me, because it was true, but I can learn from that.

[TechTones]

Hi Liquid

You get defensive and I get moody :)
I usually just hold a hot iron to my stomach to calm myself down.
Works most of the time.......

It's more of a demo showing off your video card's DX9 abilities.
Fun to play with and great effects. Hopefully one day games and apps will look that good.

[STEvil]

<zombie> brrraaaaaainnnsssssss </zombie>

Disclaimer: My brain at the moment is making a fuzzy picture look like a $20,000 digital camera... bleahness!

[Keeper]

Liquid3D,

I have a very similar testimony, and share many of your views and values. For the last 17 years I have dedicated my life’s work to benefit the needy. Rescue missions, feeding kitchens, drug rehabs, MHMR, hospice’s, elderly care, inner city youth, world missions, and presently pastor a church. And even more peculiar, I got my first taste of reality as a result of a broken back.

I can share in your frustration in failing to get across the idea that a lack of integrity does tremendous damage to our society and our own children become the victims of our greed. I have failed too, in convincing others that sacrifice is worth the sacrifice, but like you I too have not given up.

What you have experienced is quite difficult for most to grasp, you have an advantage that most will never be able to acquire. “Once you have had everything and lost it, you realize just how insignificant everything is”.

I recovered from paralysis, and lost everything in the process…………..but to impart the blessing that came from that experience is almost impossible to do. What you have is very hard to obtain and is worth more that all you ever had, but don’t hold your breath expecting others to understand it.

What most view as reality is only an illusion.

[Maelstorm]

Why isn't this thread locked yet? This thread was a flame war to begin with, and had little to do with overclocking in the first place.

We're here to talk about overclocking and whatnot, NOT to have people try and get us to boycott the big, bad A-DATA because they're working the poor children to death to get these memory modules out. :mad:

Spam and trolling, to a certain extent.

[jinu117]

Maelstorm.... I think you did jump in a little late and not reading the whole thing -_-;
It might not be OC'ing related but it is getting into some good discussion about way of living :)
And there is no bickering anymore or name calling at least. Its more of opinions chiming in. I personally don't mind this thread as long as there are no insults flying...mod might need to move it to some other forum with different title though.

[st0nedpenguin]

Originally posted by TheDogFather
@ stonedpenguin

I wasnt directing my comments at you, and I may have been a little out of order, for which I apolagise.

I am making good use of my time, and purposely avoid the general discusion sections of the various computer related forums I frequent, because I have a lot of things I would rather do, and have little interest in most of the views expressed in them.

When im in the Extreme Overclocking section of this forum, and I see a thread titled 'The Overclocking secret behind Hynix and A-DATA' I kind of expected to read something of use to me as a Adata owner. Not to be conned into reading someones views on why we should pay more, because its unfair to america (the united states of unfair imo).

As for this 'perhaps even donate a little time to charity work, but, I won't hold my breath.' Dont presume to know anything about me other than a interest in computers.

Hell, you may have a point there, I did think the comments were directed at me, so I went off on a rant, must be that time of the month (the time when my paycheck has gone), sorry d00d.

[st0nedpenguin]

Originally posted by Keeper
Liquid3D,

I have a very similar testimony, and share many of your views and values. For the last 17 years I have dedicated my life’s work to benefit the needy. Rescue missions, feeding kitchens, drug rehabs, MHMR, hospice’s, elderly care, inner city youth, world missions, and presently pastor a church. And even more peculiar, I got my first taste of reality as a result of a broken back.

I can share in your frustration in failing to get across the idea that a lack of integrity does tremendous damage to our society and our own children become the victims of our greed. I have failed too, in convincing others that sacrifice is worth the sacrifice, but like you I too have not given up.

What you have experienced is quite difficult for most to grasp, you have an advantage that most will never be able to acquire. “Once you have had everything and lost it, you realize just how insignificant everything is”.

I recovered from paralysis, and lost everything in the process…………..but to impart the blessing that came from that experience is almost impossible to do. What you have is very hard to obtain and is worth more that all you ever had, but don’t hold your breath expecting others to understand it.

What most view as reality is only an illusion.

Wise words, who would have thunk it, a die hard aethiest and a pastor sharing pretty much the same view.

Well, I would of course, but meh.

:D

[st0nedpenguin]

Oh, and, sorry for bringing this thread back into circulation.

:(

[jayray580]

@Keeper:)
yes, u r definately right about reality and illusion, my own experience showed that, too, well, i found peace, not based on any circumstances in life, there permanent peace cannot b found, i found peace within myself as the very core of my being :p: