My Build...

[killermiller]

Here it goes.....

Here is my workspace -

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/4143/dsc00012largewc3.jpg

Here or some items I aquired for my new hobby.

Nitrogen
Promax r5410a Recovery Machine
R507
Recovery Cylinders
Swage Tool
10A Variac
Kill-A-Watt
Bending springs
Tube cutter
Vacuum pump
Manifold
Sanding cloth
Brazing rods
Arctic Melt
I have aquired a few different times since this photo was taken
300w loat tester - Thanks DetroitAC
4 valve Manifold - Best thing ever
Core removal tool -
Valve core depressor -
Anti-blow back fittings -

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/3111/dsc00046largenm8.jpg

Here are most of the part for the build. Most of which were purchased from a resident shop owner - Runmc

NF11FX
Little Blue
Insulation
Flex tube - Pre-brazed
Cryostar - Thanks Gosmeyer for the replacement!
SLHX - didn't use
10' 0.031 cap tube
Filter/Dryer with access
172mm fan -
Light dimmer as fan control

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/6926/dsc00049largeug7.jpg

This is the better part of my garage after a few disasters.

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/3874/dsc00157largeol3.jpg


After a few trials this is where I am at now.

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/7240/dsc00150largezx1.jpg

A little close-up

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/7273/dsc00151largesu6.jpg

A different angle

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5541/dsc00152largest8.jpg

And another angle

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/4701/dsc00154largeoj1.jpg

A birds eye view

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/7403/dsc00155largeqd3.jpg

Last one...

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/8568/dsc00156largeyt5.jpg

This is the condenser from my recovery machine. I had to replace the gauges in it and

I saw it. It kind of makes Little Blue look, well, little.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1371/dsc00045largelb3.jpg

[AliG]

great job man!

[n00b 0f l337]

Great job and great tools! Hell of a cost there!
I like the fan setup as well! You should drill out the rivets on the 120mm shroud side to prevent the air blockage.

[killermiller]

Thanks, Ali.

Thanks Nol, I don't know why I didn't think of that. The original idea was to build a cooler for quad but the budget got pretty tight after all the supplies.

[gosmeyer]

Heck your ready, seems like you got what you need. :up:
What Adam said about the fan.

[[XC] gomeler]

Any reason for the T on the suction line along with the access port? Sticking a probe into the suction-gas stream for better measurements?

[killermiller]

I am not sure what you mean, but I think you are talking about my core depressor. I am not charged right now. I do have the superheat thermometer that goes with the core removal tool. I just got it back together since my disaster. vac'd purged from low - vac'd purged from high and vac'd again. Just waiting till I have some time to charge and whatnot.

[Fhqwhgads6680]

Looking really nice man! I am looking really forward to seeing her frost over :) will this be your first frost? Its a great experience. Great job man!

[killermiller]

Not exactly. I already had her build but I shut her down for dinner but didn't turn the load tester off. :slapass: Bad news....but I am back on track. I still need a thermal cutoff for the tester though.

[Polizei]

Cleanest work space of any phase builder Ive seen. Then again, sounds like this is your first unit... Ill give you time. ;)

Nice work, nice tools. :up:

[n00b 0f l337]

Hahaha its true! Just wait till you start stockpiling parts :P

[killermiller]

My old lady has to go in there and put the dogs in the kennel so it has to be clear. Trust me, it's messy.

[n00b 0f l337]

Well fan setups nifty, I got quite a few 172mm, but never thought about making em fit or removing the shroud. Good idea though for more performance or same wit less noise.

[PhilippF]

Nice one! I also love the turbine you mounted on the condensor. Where did you get it? Boeing? NASA?

Regards,

Philipp

[AliG]

hey I just realized you have the same oxy mapp torch I have! It doesn't have a fancy handle that allows you to control everything with the flick of your thumb, but it definitely is worth the $50 (that's how much I spent anyways)

[TopherTony]

seems to be a pattern of builders forgetting to turn off load testers :rofl:

[bazx]

love the work space will help alot

nice attention to detail and pipe work

well done

[teyber]

seriously@topher...

hey, my friend beautiful work!
if you don't mind me asking, whats a core depressor do?

[killermiller]

Me too. What I did do was get a 20cf oxy tank and regulator so I don't have to spend $10 on a little tank of oxygen, I can spent $30 and get 17cf more for the same price. Although the investment was over $100 I went through 5 little tanks just learning how to braze. It would have been a better investment had I done it in the beginning.

[killermiller]

seriously@topher...

hey, my friend beautiful work!
if you don't mind me asking, whats a core depressor do?

It lets you connect the hose an vacuum all of the air out before you depress the core.

[teyber]

It lets you connect the hose an vacuum all of the air out before you depress the core.

Is it a permanent thing on the system or do you attach it via a schrader valve?

[killermiller]

connect via schrader

[AliG]

Me too. What I did do was get a 20cf oxy tank and regulator so I don't have to spend $10 on a little tank of oxygen, I can spent $30 and get 17cf more for the same price. Although the investment was over $100 I went through 5 little tanks just learning how to braze. It would have been a better investment had I done it in the beginning.
yeah, I hate how little you get out of the oxy because it's stored in a gas form, then again it wouldn't be much use in a liquid form (or would it:eek: [/ali's neighbor's hear loudass explosion and think, silly Iranians, explosions are for suicide bombers :rotf:])

[teyber]

yeah, I hate how little you get out of the oxy because it's stored in a gas form, then again it wouldn't be much use in a liquid form (or would it:eek: [/ali's neighbor's hear loudass explosion and think, silly Iranians, explosions are for suicide bombers :rotf:])

what?
:sofa:

[tim-]

teyber:
it's like an extansion for your hose. fully removable and ment to be removed after working. It reduce the vacuumtime 3-4times and also reduce the lost of refrigrant when disconnecting manifold, infact it's nothing coming out of the unit, only the refrigrant from the hoses.

[n00b 0f l337]

Yes it is a good thing, though quick coupling low loss fittings work perfect for me. I have a single core removal tool for vaccing, and with my digi vac tool sure it reduces time it seems to vac, but it really doesnt take that much time to get down to 300-400 micron range.

[PhilippF]

yeah, I hate how little you get out of the oxy because it's stored in a gas form, then again it wouldn't be much use in a liquid form (or would it:eek: [/ali's neighbor's hear loudass explosion and think, silly Iranians, explosions are for suicide bombers :rotf:])

You get quite a lot of brazing out of an oxy tank if you use acetylene instead of propane (in fact you need only 40% of oxygen using acetylene compared to propane).

I have my 10l oxy tank now for quite a while and still 150 bar in it.

[killermiller]

The core depressor is different then the core removal tool. One thing I want is a vac gauge.

[AliG]

You get quite a lot of brazing out of an oxy tank if you use acetylene instead of propane (in fact you need only 40% of oxygen using acetylene compared to propane).

I have my 10l oxy tank now for quite a while and still 150 bar in it.
I personally use mapp (not propane) and have the exact same bernzomatic cheapo brazing kit killermiller does, but it actually does a very good job. While it isn't as customizable, it gets the job done.

I haven't actually ran out of my oxy yet, but the tank does feel a lot lighter than the mapp after only a little bit of use

[teyber]

I personally use mapp (not propane) and have the exact same bernzomatic cheapo brazing kit killermiller does, but it actually does a very good job. While it isn't as customizable, it gets the job done.

I haven't actually ran out of my oxy yet, but the tank does feel a lot lighter than the mapp after only a little bit of use

yeah i also have it, and im less then impressed so far:shrug: i have been using hard drawn copper(for something else) meh... I think ill update to oxy/acetlyne once i know this is going to be a long term hobby of mine:up:

Reed

p.s. miller... that shop, i keep looking at it. Thats nuts!

[AliG]

really? I managed to actually melt the joint fitting completely all around the tube and got a good seal without spending too much time heating it up. I didn't bother to pressure test because I was just practicing, but no water leaked when I ran some water through it

[killermiller]

I like this torch much better since I don't have to buy new $10 tanks every time I want to braze. The manual for the torch says that a brazing flame will make the bottle last 10-15 minutes:eek:

It isn't much of a shop, it is a 1 car garage that I convinced my wife not to park in. Part of the deal is I have to move my computer out there too, which has yet to happen.

[AliG]

really? never noticed that, I've been using a brazing flame for longer than 10 min and still have quite a bit of oxy left

[killermiller]

According to the manual, I think that the longest you can get out of them is 25-30 minutes with a "solder" flame.

[killermiller]

Well, I charged it up the other night but didn't get the results I was looking for. I wasn't able to hold any substantial load even with a heavy charge. I suspected the the cap was blocked somewhere although not enough to cause a pressure drop and begin evaporating within the cap, which I have experienced before. I suspect that that was the problem because the cap had been bent and manipulated quite a few times. I had also cut it all the way down to 6.5ft. I didn't realize it was that short since I started with 8ft, if I remember correctly. I had another length which I decided to restart with 7 ft to make a fairly even number. I rebrazed it last night and hope to get some time to charge it up again and see what I get.

[[XC] 2long4u]

What were your pressures?

[killermiller]

To high. I was curious how much refrigerant was in it so I shut the unit down and static pressure was over 120:eek: I am pretty certain that the cap had a kink in it. I will know for sure hopefully tonight.

[jinu117]

Do you have some close up pic of unit for diagnose purposes. I am a little hazy on that desuperheater coil, and subcooling done for cap :) Also, is there a way to control the speed of fan?
Just few random things I am asking as I think I know what you are facing with... :)

[killermiller]

Well the DSH was copied of a vapo that you modded so you can't be hazy on that ;). I do have a dimmer that I control the fan speed with. I have a piece of tape as a marker so I always have it on the same speed. That cap on those pics has had a rough ride. I replaced it with a brand new length. I also tried to solder the cap tube to the flex like I have seen. Gomeler said he just used rosin core solded but I didn't have any luck so I had to use 45% silver.

I actually was pretty happy before I had my load tester accident. The only thing that has changed has been the flex which I rewrapped the cap around. I am pretty sure that the cap is/was the problem, but I would love to hear what you think it is :)

[jinu117]

LMAO :)
No wonder it did look familiar. Did you purge with nitrogen when brazing that in? Chances are, oil set in that thing unless you cleaned it up before brazing which could cause acid formation... :)
Also, I would probably place it straight down so oil/potential liquid doesn't have bumpy ride alone. Especially with the cap tubing length you have, restriction and pressure drop on that particular loop is decently high (given volume of refrigerant you are flowing through it) and would be something I would make bit "wider" or scrap out all together. (Condenser is a little lacking for what you are subjecting so some kind of secondary cooler is still necessary)
As for cap length before and now, what are the length each? 120PSI, or even 100 PSI is way too high of static pressure for single stage with the temp and load we are subjecting it to and will be prone to liquid slug back which will ultimately lead to demise of system.
Basically, you should have practically no slug back around 30w range to be really safe (0w being of course optimal). 120PSI would be liquid heaven...:)

[killermiller]

I had a little time to mess around with it. I purge for the most part. When I assembled the system I did. I am not sure what you mean. Cleaned what up?

I have been suffering from high pressure and high compressor temps. It just doesn't seem like I am getting the flow necessary to keep things cool although it does seem better after I swapped cap tubes. That is also another thing, even with such a heavy charge it doesn't sound like I am getting flood back at all.

The cap length now is about 7 ft. the other one I removed was about 6.5ft

[PhilippF]

7 ft. of 0.031 is absolutely right for the compressor. I would redo the pipework to be sure there are no problems there.

I also solder the captube to the suction line but not the flexible part but a copper tubing of 12mm (if it is only 8mm, the captube gets bent too much).

You will have no luck with electronic solder (rosin/resin solder?), I use soft solder and flux for water piping, works fine.

Regards,

Philipp

[jinu117]

Okay, hand me ambient temp at the time of testing, temperature of
1) outlet of condenser
2) filter drier
3) high side pressure
:)
Both in idle and in full load of what it can handle at the time.

[killermiller]

Ambient is ~68. The static charge wasn't as high as I though. I went out this morning and it read 80psi. I thought I had a leak. I fired it up and the running pressures were similar to last night.

The idle HS pressure was about 240psi (I think, I forgot to write that down.)
LS pressure was 0psi @ -45. Pipe temp 8 inches was ~25.5. I was getting floodback.

I was able to hold 175w @-31c @ ~290psi after about 15 minutes. evap temp was 31. The pipe about 8 inches from the compressor was -2.7c Condenser exit was ~32 after about 15 minutes. Compressor discharge was 79.

I forgot to get the temp of the filter.

I just recovered the refirgerant and bent the DSH vertical. I didn't want to do it while the charge was in it just in case the braze joint broke. I am vac'ing right now although I probably won't get much time tonight to work on it.

[jinu117]

Idle HS pressure seems quite high and I bet your load HS pressure doesn't go too much higher either (probably tops around 250-260psi).
Basically, you are overcharged quite a bit.
Based on PT, 68F R507's saturation pressure is 148.6 PSI.
Unless your filter drier is quite hot to touch, (94F+), this sounds like you have huge amount of excess subcooling.
Also, we can't count on what you have right now as bases as you are getting floodback to system which will kick up highside pressure and low side pressure. On next charge, go slow till compressor is FULLY warmed up and start measuring subcooling, superheat (I would do it right at evap suction line from evap), and charge slowly till you just started getting little flood back and than do diminus.
Test the unit for how much wattage it can handle and that is what your system has been configured for load. Charging more gas than necessary is simply overcharging the system. A little over charging is okay but if you have major floodback at 0w, chances are, you will have some of it beyond 50w as well which isn't practical as idling CPU tend to stay around there.

[killermiller]

Would contaminated refrigerant cause these types of symptoms? I found a leak, a gasket on a hose didn't have a good seal.

[jinu117]

It could as you might have inappropirate amount of mixture R-125 and R-143a which could make it more like zeotrapic blend not to mention concentration can change p/t depending on what proportion passes through. You will most likely see wild fluctuation of temp.
However, considering you are charging either saturated liquid or saturated gas (you could get small adapter for this) and the fact of few readings you have gaven me, it does sound overcharged be it the refrigerant is clean or dirty. Did you accidentally charge the refrigerant not upside down..?

[killermiller]

I got an insta-charge from johnstones. It might have been overcharged the first time but when I recovered and let the machine pull a vacuum it might have been sucking air through and adding it to the refrigerant.

About the subcooling... Something has to be wrong. I am pretty confused at this point. I don't think there is anything wrong with the design of the system. It has to be how I am charging it. I filled the system with nitrogen and cut the cap to make sure I had equal flow from both sides and I did. Seems like a destructiveway to check but I am confident that there is not any blockage in the cap. How do you suppose I am getting all this extra subcooling? The DSH going to the condenser would be very warm and the outlet feels cool to the touch. Even with the fan on very low.

[jinu117]

First build can be struggling experience but you will get so much diagnostic skill when you have problem that having problem can be a good thing :)
Hang in there :)
Have you read sticky about subcooling and superheat? This is the fundamental in diagnostics of symptons. Few other things can be helpful which are compressor power consumption, temperature of compressor itself in given condition, etc.
Once you have finished subcooling and superheat (believe me, lot of HVAC/R wanna be in S. Cal has no idea what this really is.... beer can cold suction line might not be best for some units....-_-), this is the link that I can recommend.
http://www.udarrell.com/ac-trouble-shooting-chart.html
Okay this is not A/C we are doing but everything is practically same. (well superheat will be less than A/C for our case)
There are quite a few things that makes me think you are way overcharged originally.
#1) Anything over 250psi under max load of unit is iffy to say the least given the component you have.
#2) The huge temperature drop on desuperheater. It typically do have good amount of drop but what could be happening is liquid pooling there which is taking a lot of refrigerant that really should be circulating. Keep in mind, the compressor you are using has much more volume it can push through than the modded LS one I had and such tight loop can mean quite a bit more pressure drop unlike on LS mod.
#3) You need to look at what capacity the condenser has at given flow rate of gas and given inlet temp and condensing temp with ambient air temp (both dry/wet) and actual airflow through it. I honestly think going anything over 220w tuning with that blue condenser tuning with the compressor combination will only lead to overcharged system... Guess why vapochill LS and mach units have suction accumulators in them... it does cost more for them to put it in there but they had to.

PS) due to heat dump from NF11FX, I am seriously thinking this compressor isn't the best for SS unless better condenser is utilized to begin with (original reason for me moving away was noise level). NF10FX would be better fit to be honest, NF9FX still has some room that can be delved for higher load condition than my last unit I had (remember how I stopped at 200w with NF9FX and now on vapo mods, I can go to 210-220w range without losing too much on temp?) It is a lot of balancing of things. FYI, the condenser I use now a day have about 60% more capacity of the blue under given fan condition. Next revision I am working on will have 28% more capacity than what I have now. (Basically nearly double of the blue's capacity)... just some random thoughts... :)

[killermiller]

I have read about superheat and subcooling quite a bit. In fact I have read so much stuff in the past months I forgot what I read about. (If that makes any sense). I think the problem is applying what I have learned to real world experience.

I agree with the initial overcharge, but when I recharged with the recovered refrigerant it where it became obvious something is really wrong. It seems like you can let the compressor run forever and it won't get warm until you get some pressure in there. I was charging slow like you suggested and I still didn't seem to get any better results. If a air vapor is taking up too much space in the cap then the liquid would back up in the condenser and cause excessive subcooling.

I knew there was a leak somewhere too. Next time I charge, it will be with fresh r507. That will hopefully be tomorrow.

[AliG]

you could always try a vacuum if you think there's air in the cap tube

[killermiller]

I think that there may be some air in with my refrigerant since I had a leaky hose gasket. This is just speculation at this point but I am going change the filter and try it one last time and mark it dirty. Like I mentioned a few days ago, something is blocking flow whether it is air or something else, and as Jin mentioned, is resulting in to much subcooling.

[AliG]

hmm, if you think you have a leaky gasket you could always try to the soap water technique

[killermiller]

oh, I know I had one. I found it since.

[AliG]

I take it the soap water trick worked then^_^

I may not be an expert, but I know a few simple tricks you can do

[killermiller]

I didn't even need that. I had a suspicion that there was a leak. It would drop exactly 10psi over night and I didn't notice. I had the valve core removed and I put it back in and it stopped. I Checked the hose and the gasket looks like it was chewed on. I dropped the core removal cool and it has a little piece on the flare sticking up.

[zeroblue]

Nice job killermiller :up:
I like your workspace :up:
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[killermiller]

Thanks Zero.

I replaced the filter and decided to cut it open to see if there was anything clogging the screen. Nothing. Clean as a whistle. Dessicant was a little brown , I am not sure what color it normally is though. I vac'd for a while tonight and will hopefully have time to charge tomorrow. I decided I am just going to use fresh refrigerant. I am going to order a quad so I want this finished. We will see how it goes.

[killermiller]

Well after changing the filter and gave it a nice long vac. The results aren't any better. The load high pressure isn't as high but the static pressure if very high. I was holding 150w @ ~32 @ 220psi. low was about 0psi. Static is 120. I think I am going to get rid of the DSH. Would there be any problem with using a length of 3/8 from the compressor to the condenser? Any other ideas?

[jinu117]

Do you have suction accumulator?

[killermiller]

Nope. I guess it hadn't equalized yet but it was 80 psi, not 120. I already recovered and am waiting for your next suggestion.

[teyber]

any update? sorry to revive but was wondering if you got it worked out

[Minerva]

The system looks good.

Nice workshop too, very clean. But you really should secure that nitrogen cylinder with a chain... you don't want it to fall over and end up going flying through your wall.

Why is there a low side access valve on the suction line, when you have a service port as well?

[[XC] 2long4u]

Why is there a low side access valve on the suction line, when you have a service port as well?

Why not?

[killermiller]

No update really. I haven't had much time. The time do get I have been using to track down a leak which I finally found. I ended up filling up the tub and putting the entire system in there and found a tiny leak on the flexible suction. My core depressor that I though so highly of was also leaking. I changed to a different condenser because I thought that I was having some condensing problems.

[[XC] 2long4u]

Thats odd. It seems like it is overcharged. If you are overcharged with a very good condenser your high side pressures will appear normal. What is your superheat?

[killermiller]

Even after I fixed the flex line I was still loosing charge. After placing it back in the tub I found that I was leaking a slight amount from the schreader valves. I had to watch it for like 15 minutes to see bubbles forming on them. I guess they weren't tightened enough but they were pretty tight. Anyway I wrenched them down and I should be in business. When I get a chance I will take some updated pictures since it has been through a little redesign.

[teyber]

Even after I fixed the flex line I was still loosing charge. After placing it back in the tub I found that I was leaking a slight amount from the schreader valves. I had to watch it for like 15 minutes to see bubbles forming on them. I guess they weren't tightened enough but they were pretty tight. Anyway I wrenched them down and I should be in business. When I get a chance I will take some updated pictures since it has been through a little redesign.

please do

[killermiller]

I can try to take some pics. I also had a leaky manifold. The Imperial 4-valve units tend to leak. I have been through two. I have my system leak free though, I am pretty sure.

[killermiller]

Pics tomorrow for sure.

[xwards]

good luck on your build

[killermiller]

Well here they are. The difference is the the suction line and I removed an access port. I have had problems with them leaking and I decided the fewer the better. I changed the condenser a long time ago, I didn't realize I hadn't updated in so long.

[teyber]

Nice!

Have you charged at all?

What condenser is that?

i would recomend getting a wire brush and cleaning off that condenser oxidation and compressor stuff. You have a vacuum gauge so im sure that only 1 access port will work just fine.

Thanks for updating.

Regards

[killermiller]

Yeah but I kept having leaks. Once it was the schrader, next the manifold, 2 in fact. The imperial 4 valve with the diaphrams. One brand new one and an another from ebay. The replacement diaphrams are $20 a pair so I just bought another new/used manifold and hoses for $60. Both leaked though so I highly recommend to stay away from the Imperials.

I am also pretty busy, I have a almost 5 month old baby that I spend alot of time with. I don't like to go in the garage when she is sleeping and her mom isn't home. Then when her mom is home she wants family time.

The condenser is the one from unseen that Pete asked about in the condenser thread. I got is last summer.

There are two access ports, one is the service port and the other on the filter.

I got a round wire brush for my power drill but I don't like to spend much time on cosmetics when mechanics aren't working properly.

[DagoDuck]

Is that a CryoStar SingleStage CPU evaporator? Your evaporator looks very similar.

[killermiller]

It sure is.

[teyber]

hey mate any news? have you had any time to work whatsoever?

[killermiller]

I did on Monday but I just screwed around with my vacuum pump.

I am waiting for a new manifold. Thought it was going to be here today but URI screwed me. Charged me for 2nd Day shipping for two 1/8 FPT to 1/4 Flare and two 3/8 to 1/4 flare for my new vac manifold. :) Needless to say I am pretty pissed.

I just couldn't get those Imperial manifolds to work for me.

I also got a sight glass since I saw some others with them and I thought it would be helpful to see how much is condensing.

I only get Mondays to really work on it. My daughter just turned 5 months so I spend most of my time upstairs with her. I feel guilty like I sneak into the garage to play while she is sleeping, so I play Xbox or wander around here.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

You need at least one loop between your Discharge fromt he compressor to the condensor to dampen out vibration other wise over time you'll get sheering stress cracks. Keep that in minde for futur builds, just one loop or a big U style bend.

[killermiller]

I was going to do that so I could try to get it to fit in a SS case. The way it is right now it is too long to fit in most ss cases

[killermiller]

Update. The manifold I ordered is on backorder trough URI. I found one locally for $20 less - shipping. I am going to have URI cancel my order and hopefully refund my shipping and I will be happy. Anyway I have a new YJ Brute II Manifold to play with. I have the next two days off and then I take my daughter to daycare on Monday. Next update will be Monday @ the latest.

[teyber]

good lord the brute is expensive :p:

nice...

Whats the difference between the brute and the titan 4? isn't it just weight?

[killermiller]

$129 from Thermal Supply, actually very reasonable. Forgot it was Easter this weekend so no progress yet. I will take my daughter to daycare tomorrow and will have a few hours tomorrow to play.

[teyber]

!? i was looking at a brute for 260$!

[killermiller]

This was just the manifold. URI wanted $150 something + shipping. I have to call them first thing tomorrow and cancel my order with them and try to get my shipping refunded.

[killermiller]

Update as promised. Installed sight glass and added vibration loop.

Pics of installed components and messy workspace.

[Moc]

It would be better to put the sightglass at the end of the highside. So straight before the captube . But also now it will work..

[n00b 0f l337]

Will work either way really, But looking good. I love those condensers!

[killermiller]

Whats the difference between the brute and the titan 4? isn't it just weight?

I just noticed this.... The difference is the Brute has a 3/8 bore and the Titan has 1/4.

The condenser is aukward. Too wide to fit sideways and too long to fit longways.

The sight glass just fits better this way.

Leak testing @ 300psi while I am @ work.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

why are you using a sight glas in a cap tube system? It will not help you with geting an accurate charge, only charge according to SH and SC.

[n00b 0f l337]

Theres a bunch of people doing it I think well, for looks. Yeah its odd, but don' think it's hurting much.

[killermiller]

The sight glass is just for kicks.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Well if it turns yer crank why not!

[killermiller]

Well it wasn't holding pressure. I put it back in the tub and found that the flexline is leaking again. It was one that was given to me but it is either very brittle or something cause this is the second time it has leaked on me. Changed back to one that I bought from Ron. I pressurized and put back in the tub to check for bubbles. So far so good. Now it is time to leak btest again.

[teyber]

o and why is black going to high/low, red to refrigerant and yellow to vac? is it just like that because your black tubes are largers diameter?

[killermiller]

Black hoses are heavy duty 3/8 with 1/4 fittings, yellow is just vac hose and red is actually going to nitrogen.

[killermiller]

After quite a few leaks from leaky schraders and a stubborn flexline, I think I have it.

I just took some pics. I am still working on it for a little while today. I am going to let it warm up so I can attach my load tester. I will probably take some more pics here shortly.

[n00b 0f l337]

Nice MDF work, its such a fun material sum times.

[killermiller]

Under load after about 15 minutes, superheat would raise and evap temps would crash. Looking at the sight glass, under load there are no bubbles. I think that the condenser paired with the fan drop pressure too much and inhibit condensing. I just lengthed the cap about 6 inches and we will see what happens. I was @ ~8'4". That is just a guess though.

All my probes read different temps. Does someone know where to get some decent probes that aren't super expensive and read temps well?

[n00b 0f l337]

I just think your undercharged. I doubt your condensers too strong.

[killermiller]

When I took the the pics that are shown, I was @ 100psi static. After adding refrigerant to hold the load I was much higher.

[n00b 0f l337]

Static doesn't really mean anything ;)

[killermiller]

If someone can build a unit with X weight of refrigerant and mine takes 1.5 times more, there is obviously some redesign that can happen. If I see everyone elses units with sub-100psi.

[n00b 0f l337]

Hmmm I'm guessing thats actually caused by ur overly large condenser probably filling with liquid towards the bottom.

[killermiller]

I should be able to get the same affect by lengthening cap and using less refrigerant, right?

I am not the first person to use a bigger-than-small condenser.

[n00b 0f l337]

Got a superheat reading?

[killermiller]

Not exactly. I took some pics but it was holding then. The best temp @ 230w was -28 which I wasn't happy with anyway. The cap tube adjustment has already been done. I have been vac'ing since 1. It is down to 390 microns right now.

[gosmeyer]

Good luck Miller, I know your not going to quit till your happy.

[killermiller]

Thanks. I don't get to work on it very much, about once a week for a couple of hours which I usually split between lookin for stuff and actually working on it. This is experimental more than anything. Once I get done with this I have a rotary build ready.

[A/\/\/\C]

You,ll get there M8 nice work all the best

[killermiller]

Thanks.

I got some new stuff recently. I got a leak detector for $10 off craigslist. It is an h10xpro. It needed a charger but luckly it uses 7.2v battery which I rigged to my r/c battery charger. I would say $10 well spent.

I also got a 1/2" vacuum hose. This thing is a monster. I want to try to reduce the vac time as much as possible since I only get a little time to work on it, I don't want to waste that time waiting.

[n00b 0f l337]

Yeah I got a 3/8" vacuum hose to hook up, gotta find 1/4 to 3/8 adapators though. Right now I just use a 18" shorter charge hose when I vacuum, decreased my vacuum time by almost an hour from a 72" hose! :)

[killermiller]

If there is a URI nearby, they may have them. Thats where I ordered mine from.

[killermiller]

Well after lengthening the cap tube I charged it up and pressures were almost the same. 120 psi and I couldn't even get it to hold 35w. I am at a cross road. Do I use little blue with a 120mm fan and go for the tried and true or do I keep screwing around with this larger condenser?

I chose to screw around a little more. I cut the cap back down, I think I took about 3ft off. I will see what happens. Everyone make is look so easy but this is really a time consuming process.

Here are my theories of what has been happening.

1) cap tube was not restrictive enough and letting the refrigerant pass trough to quickly.

2) short cap tube is not letting enough pressure build up on high side to increase pressure to get mass flow of condensed refrigerant to evap.

3) long cap tube causing enough restriction to back up refrigerant and allow the fan to cool and reduce pressure enough to slow flow to the evap drasticly.

Well those are them. I know none are exactly right or might not even be near right, but those are my theory to my adjustments. If the shorter cap tube makes a positive result, I am going to get some 0.036 and try a length of that. If it doesn't improve, I am going to start again with a 10' spool and maybe add to that. Those two extremes have to a have much different results.

[{.bLanK} GoD]

Sorry if it's mentioned earlier in the thread, but give us a run down on the results of all of the following.
With all these answered we should be able to help you.

*High side idle pressure
*Low side idle pressure
*Idle evap temp
*Idle suction temp 6" from compressor
*Gas used
*Capillary inside diameter
*Capillary length
*Compressor Amps
*Picture of over all unit would help to just in case there is something obviously wrong.

[killermiller]

High side 120psig
Low side vac
Idle evap temp was only like -20
Cap tube 0.031
was about 8'4"
I did not check compressor amps
Pics are just a few post back

[Marvin]

i think it is a bit undercharged, or maybe the cap tube should be shorten

[killermiller]

I just did shorten quite a bit. It was taking so much refrigerant to get evap cold and to hold load. When I get some time I will charge up again and see what happens.

[n00b 0f l337]

Whats your captube length now? Using the same setup I would be using 8.5 feet of .031", I think when you saw your sight glass was full you figured thats all you'd have to charge, you've been undercharged is all I think.

[killermiller]

I have added and removed so many times I am not sure. Right now it the shortest is has been. It has been a busy weekend so I haven't had time to play.

I know I was undercharged before since my SH was too high. I think the problems is that the pressure is to low on the high side. 120 psi, simply isn't forcing the refrigerant through the capillary fast enough. I may be thinking about it differently than it actually works.

[n00b 0f l337]

Then add more refrigerant.

[{.bLanK} GoD]

*High side idle pressure
*Low side idle pressure
*Idle evap temp
*Idle suction temp 6" from compressor
*Gas used
*Capillary inside diameter
*Capillary length
*Compressor Amps
*Picture of over all unit would help to just in case there is something obviously wrong.


High side 120psig
Low side vac
Idle evap temp was only like -20
Cap tube 0.031
was about 8'4"
I did not check compressor amps
Pics are just a few post back

What about suction temp and gas?
That is one of the easiest ways to get the right amount of gas into our systems, keep adding gas until you get a temp difference of 6-12C between evap and suction 6" before the compressor. Which also means you should be getting ice form on your suction line all the way back to about 2" from the compressor shell.
Cap tube sounds roughly the right length depending on the refrigerant used.
Sounds like you just need more gas.

[killermiller]

What about suction temp and gas?
That is one of the easiest ways to get the right amount of gas into our systems, keep adding gas until you get a temp difference of 6-12C between evap and suction 6" before the compressor. Which also means you should be getting ice form on your suction line all the way back to about 2" from the compressor shell.
Cap tube sounds roughly the right length depending on the refrigerant used.
Sounds like you just need more gas.

I agree with everyone about it being undercharged. The problem is that when I shut the system down there will be 150+ static charge, and that is only when it holds very little load. I don't think I have seen a recip/ss build with more then 100psi.

I am looking at it from a design perspective. Why would I want to use X amount of more gas to make up for a design flaw?

[n00b 0f l337]

How long are you waiting for the charge to settle? Static takes hours. As also stated, a big high side means larger static, big low side means lower static. You have a rather huge high side with that condenser. So compensate with a bigger low side, or a longer low side, or dun use the condenser. Oh and that sight glass does add more liquid volume needed.

[{.bLanK} GoD]

NoL's right, to lower your static pressure you options are:
*reduce liquid line length
*reduce condensor size
*increase low side volume
*loose the sight glass

Some, one, or all of these will lower you static pressure.
Looking at your pics on the last page, doesn't look like you can shorten the liquid line at all, so if it was me, I'd get rid of the sight glass for a start, then add a fairly good size accumulator. (around a few hundred cc's)
The accumulator will help to avoid flood back under a heavy charge too.

[[XC] gomeler]

As everyone else has said.. dump some propane into that system. Even at idle it should be out of vacuum. The high-side will be ungodly low though, I've had R290 systems with 140psi high-sides under 100% load and with such a big condenser I imagine you'll do even better.

[n00b 0f l337]

Wait wait thats with propane? I thought with r507a, then his running pressures are okay. I would remove the sight glass or at least level it off and remove all that extra post condenser tubing then. Also go back to about 9ft of captube, r290 likes to be a bit more restrictive then r507a and others from my experience. And also don't just turn off, give it 1-2 days and you could see a much much lower static, especially with a hydrocarbon.

[[XC] gomeler]

Wait wait thats with propane? I thought with r507a, then his running pressures are okay. I would remove the sight glass or at least level it off and remove all that extra post condenser tubing then. Also go back to about 9ft of captube, r290 likes to be a bit more restrictive then r507a and others from my experience. And also don't just turn off, give it 1-2 days and you could see a much much lower static, especially with a hydrocarbon.

Oh snap. For some reason I thought he was using R290 :confused: *slaps forehead* If it's R507 then yes he's drastically undercharged, if it's propane he needs a little bit more to get that suction up, 1-3psi idle = ideal.

[{.bLanK} GoD]

Wait wait thats with propane? I thought with r507a,

That's why I asked for a list of "all" variables including gas.
It is probably mentioned somewhere here in your thread you are using R290, but I couldn't find it after a quick look.

[killermiller]

I have been using propane for most of this. My plan was to use 507 but for some reason I started using propane until I got everything dialed in. I though I put that in the post after you asked.

The high static charge was right after the system was off so that will account for some of the elevated psi. Especially if the compressor has been running without proper cooling from the suction line. I didn't really think about that.

I guess I just need to be more patient. It seems like I just sit there and charge and charge and pressures never go up. I will see what the shortened cap tube does and then I will go back to 9ft like Nol suggested.

[{.bLanK} GoD]

If you have 507 why not use that.
Once you have tuned it for 290, the cap will not be right for use with 507. Might be close but not just right.

[killermiller]

I don't know why. I originally was having trouble with r507 so I switched and never switched back.

[killermiller]

Well here are the current results. They seem ok, I think. This is with r290. Fluke shows Subcooling and Superheat. I think I may need to install an accumulator like Blank suggested. I haven't backed it down to idle after load but I am sure it will floodback. I will find out soon when I go to work.

The last pic is how long the capillary is. The suction is a little less then 3ft.

[[XC] gomeler]

Is that 226w on the load-tester? That is a much better tune if that is load-tester consumption as that un-insulated suction-line is dumping a lot of heat into the system also. Insulate it up and fine-tune it.

[wdrzal]

I guess I just need to be more patient. It seems like I just sit there and charge and charge and pressures never go up.


Are you charging into the LOW SIDE (Suction) :shrug:

does your hose have a valve depressor ????

[killermiller]

gomeler;2919202']Is that 226w on the load-tester? That is a much better tune if that is load-tester consumption as that un-insulated suction-line is dumping a lot of heat into the system also. Insulate it up and fine-tune it.

Yeah that is load tester output + variac. I got a little floodback when I backed it off from 226 down to 60w. I didn't get any when I went from 60-off.


Are you charging into the LOW SIDE (Suction) :shrug:

does your hose have a valve depressor ????

Yeah always charging into low side. I have anti-blowback fittings so they depress the core. Still idle pressures barely moved. Now it could hold load enough for pressures to raise.

I don't really know what to do next as far as tuning goes. I am going to get some caps for my 1" tube and make an accumulator.

[[XC] 2long4u]

So how are things going on your side?

[killermiller]

Nothing new yet, maybe this weekend. If not then Friday. Changing my schedule around at work and only work on it when the wife is @ work and the baby @ daycare. Monday was the day for the past few weeks.

[[XC] 2long4u]

Do you have a chip to put it on?
And atleast you got ice!

[killermiller]

I got a quad xeon. Too bad I barely use my computer these days. My computer is downstairs in the garage and my laptop is upstairs on the kitchen table which is what I use mostly these days.

[killermiller]

I probably won't get to work on this until Friday. I may make time thursday to install an accumulator so I can vac and play Friday. Anyone have any suggestions for and accumulator design? I was just going to cap some 1" tube and put it where one of the boxes are.

[teyber]

as i said in my build, im playing around with a funky design. If we can find hand valves, ill post a pic. So you can easily shut off flow of refrigerant, but if you have floodback you can use a dsh as a accumulator.

regards

[boshuter]

I probably won't get to work on this until Friday. I may make time thursday to install an accumulator so I can vac and play Friday. Anyone have any suggestions for and accumulator design? I was just going to cap some 1" tube and put it where one of the boxes are.

The only reason you will ever have floodback is improper tuning, if it's getting floodback it has to be grossly overcharged for the design. Adding an accumulator will allow tuning for higher capacity without overcharging.

This accumulator is one I use on almost all my builds, you can do it without the cap tube inside, but it works much better if you do it like this. This will completely eliminate floodback and does a much better job of subcooling than just wrapping the cap tube around the suction line...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/boshuter/lga%20660/bobbys%20build/acc-1.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/boshuter/lga%20660/bobbys%20build/acc-2.jpg

[teyber]

so comes in from bottum, and exits from top correct? nice accumulator!

[boshuter]

so comes in from bottum, and exits from top correct? nice accumulator!

Yes... it also has to splash against front wall then travel back to outlet. I've found this design, especially with cap tube inside will, completely remove any chance of floodback and the more efficient subcooling will slightly improve performance.

[killermiller]

You posted that in another thread before. That was one of the designs I was going for minus the cap. I may do that though. Thanks for the reply, Boshuter.

[killermiller]

Well I made my accumulator, similar to Boshuter's design, minus the captube.
It is installed and ready to go, I am just vacuuming now. It is midnight in AK so I will go to bed soon. I am looking forward to a nice deep vac in the morning.

[killermiller]

I vacuumed, leak tested, and vacuumed again. No leaks. I just need some time to charge and I will call this one complete.

[one_servant]

I'm looking forward to seeing how things go Miller. I've been following this thread for quite a while now. :up:

[killermiller]

Thanks. I have to admit, it has been a slow ride. I am looking forward to finally finishing up. I would have been finished a long time ago but this has been a learning process.

[one_servant]

Thanks. I have to admit, it has been a slow ride. I am looking forward to finally finishing up. I would have been finished a long time ago but this has been a learning process.

It always is man. I'm about to be greatly humbled on this forum as I start my first build.....I have all my plans together but things never go along with every aspect of your "plans". Keep up the good work and keep taking it a step at a time. Cheers mate! :clap:

[killermiller]

Good News, my friends...

I am calling this one complete. Ideally this could use a little more fine tuning but honestly I am sick of working on this. I am going to be staring a new job on Monday which will be Monday-Friday instead of my Friday-Saturday off where I could take my daughter to daycare and play all day. So as infrequently as I updated on this, I will probably update less on the next one. Anyway, I will post some screenshots and overclock on my quad G0 Xeon one of these days. Have a good weekend.

p.s. The last pic is a teaser of the next build.

[n00b 0f l337]

What'd you change? That's more like i!

[Jack]

The only reason you will ever have floodback is improper tuning, if it's getting floodback it has to be grossly overcharged for the design. Adding an accumulator will allow tuning for higher capacity without overcharging.

This accumulator is one I use on almost all my builds, you can do it without the cap tube inside, but it works much better if you do it like this. This will completely eliminate floodback and does a much better job of subcooling than just wrapping the cap tube around the suction line...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/boshuter/lga%20660/bobbys%20build/acc-1.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/boshuter/lga%20660/bobbys%20build/acc-2.jpg

Did you have problems with oil return with that design, since it looks like it will probably trap the oil?

[teyber]

very nice killermiller! yeah what final changes did you make?

also im confused, your new job is 1 day less of work a week so why would you get to work less?(i just woke up sorry)

regards

[killermiller]

The accumulator was the last. Before that was a massive shortening of the cap tube which was why I needed an accumulator. New job is M-F. Old job was Sunday-Thursday, which ment I could take my daughter to daycare and play on Fridays and spend Saturday with Wifey and baby. I don't like to work on this stuff when they are home because I end up getting pulled away for some reason (i.e. baby crying, wife sees a spider). It is distracting and sometimes could be potentially hazardous. Just like to play it safe.

[gosmeyer]

Bout time LOL, I know your tired of it!