Auto C SS - NOL's fault, blame him. Honestly

[Pete]

NOL got hold of me and we had a good old banter on MSN about my WC'd HX/conderser SS. Helped me with a few oversights i might have! Anyway he said Auto C and a temp and i got a thinking! So yup it's all his fault! :shrug: to do with me

Anyway my case...

490 length
210 width
230 height

Thats my case i have for an SS to fit in. Chatting with Peter (Piotres) some time ago he said...


In 230mm tall case even putting Danfoss SC21CL wouldn't be problem :) .
Regards
Peter

So with NOL's banter and Piotres insight im a thinking!! :rofl:


Danfoss SC21CL
CryoStar SingleStage CPU Evaporator
Stainlees Steel Braid - 4 ft
Plate HX X2
Thermochill PA120.1
Capillary tube - .031
DDC 18W with Petra top
Refurbed Vapochill LS modded case
Vapochill chill control (i got mine to work again)
High Pressure Cutoff


Okay so there ya go, most from Ron's store (shameless plug there i know but got to respect the man and shop).

Plan is same as my planned SS (not that i've ditched the idea might just expand on it) to water cool the condenser but via a plate HX with a built in reciver i think it's called.

I've no idea on gasses to use for my application but i guess with the SC21CL and water cooling condenser i can use something nice hopefully at least anyway!

Will probs add a sight glass, something NOL was saying about. Walt's missing out but i've inc a HP switch.

I'm wanting it to be uber cold which auto c will give, and too hold a super high loa, 250W+ idealy. Also it will be really nice and neat, not a getto Autoc

My amazing skills....not in paint to show the idea off.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/corsapete/AUTOC1.jpg

What ya think then?

[Dualist]

'CryoStar SingleStage CPU Evaporator'.?

[jinu117]

Might not have enough volume in evap to handle the volume of expansion on that one. Never know till trying it out though? :)

[Pete]

'CryoStar SingleStage CPU Evaporator'.?

http://www.under-the-ice.com/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=115&osCsid=02e4578d128a96cb79183b85d4739e07

Google really is your best friend as is the search here as a bit of advice


Might not have enough volume in evap to handle the volume of expansion on that one. Never know till trying it out though? :)

Oh right, i never knew about that. Something the stickys that you are trying to sort out covered i found!

[killermiller]

You are crazy.

[Pete]

You are crazy.

Nah, i drive on the left but thats how we drive er like

[killermiller]

I meant that in a not so crazy way:)

I could have said you are normal in a crazy way, but then my post wouldn't make any sense. Um...Err...Nevermind.

[Pete]

I meant that in a not so crazy way:)

I could have said you are normal in a crazy way, but then my post wouldn't make any sense. Um...Err...Nevermind.

I knew what ya ment, crazy in all the right and good manners so to say reto speakingly

[n00b 0f l337]

Good luck ;)

[Pete]

Good luck ;)

Only ideas at the moment or umm can it be done or not

[Polizei]

Nah, i drive on the left but thats how we drive er like

:rofl: :ROTF:

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I really haven't shared my experiances in this area as much as I should have been. I am rather concerned about this trend and how it is progressing with out the proper understanding of how it functions and inter-relates.

Water is not a magic heat spunge, all the heat taken from the evap, added from motor cooling and compression, added by the water pump all must be rejected by the final stage condencer ie the rad.

The formula to size the 1st stage condencer is total heat taken from evap + 35% then for the water total heat of rejection + 25%. That means the final stage condencer (The radiator) must be able to reject all of the systems heat with a 25% over head for safety at bare minimum!

By puting on a water hx and a tiny rad is making the whole concept moot, you gain nothing and loose every thing, and at worst you make your device a danger!

The general rule for recirculating systems is 3gpm/Ton with 85F entering and 95F leaving, if ambients can drop lower then that you have to use either fan side capacity control or refrigerant side ie the V46AA-1 head pressure modulated flow control valve.

[jinu117]

Very eloquently written Xeon. I already sent him a pm regarding this... bit longer with actual estimated number but might have been more confusing that what you wrote... :)

[Pete]

Jin i wasn't ignoring you, i started to read it, then some more and more and got side tracked and need sleep to carry on.

Remeber this is a proper water cooling rad, now what most of the USA has been using, heat cores or BIX even Swiftech stuff.

Im going bed but if you read the topic again i never said like the both of you have imposed is that i am defo doing this

[[XC] gomeler]

Think you are still failing to see the point they are trying to make. You cannot use a smaller radiator and achieve better performance than a properly sized condenser unless you find a way to dramatically increase the radiator surface area. I honestly think it's a terrible waste as you are transferring heat through two stages but that's just me. Only see this being viable if you either have a large retention pool ie swimming pool to use for your heat dump or something like this.

[teyber]

Im a little lost on the whole watercooled hx thing. If you already have a loop and such, Why not just make a waterchiller... :shrug:

[killermiller]

because you still need a high speed fan on the condenser.

[teyber]

because you still need a high speed fan on the condenser.

Yes, it just seems very inefficient. t-line->pump->radiator-> t-line: hx-filter/drier->metering device->evaporator-> suction->compressor->hx... Just seems to much for what, 2c difference? maybe it will be more signifigant on a auto-c. Pete, if you want to try it then best luck to you! unless this is for a customer waiting you might just want to expand on case size... Be safe!

Reed

[killermiller]

I don't neccessarily beleive that there would be a temperature difference. It could potentially be more efficient.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Water cooling a system is far superior compared to air providing you design it properly, you have lower head pressures and more stable operation, and a bit better capacity.

If you have a low wet bulb temp an evaporative cooler will yield great results, how ever unless you are using up wards of 50TR there usually isn't much point unless you're using waste water or using a river or lake or pool.

But if you want the system quiet and have multiple systems then some thing like a large car rad out side then plumb the systems to a main circuit.

but like I said, it will not magically make the system more efficient or better, it just means you can use a larger final stage heat rejector cheaper. So unles you are using a proper pump and some sort of control system and a huge rad you are simply wasting time and money.

[[XC] gomeler]

If you have a low wet bulb temp an evaporative cooler will yield great results, how ever unless you are using up wards of 50TR there usually isn't much point unless you're using waste water or using a river or lake or pool.


Hrm.. Christmas break project, tap into local water resources to use for heat dump then build chiller big enough to utilize heat dump, then build crunching farm big enough to utilize chiller. priority: run all off municipal resources :D

[jinu117]

gomeler;2557532']Hrm.. Christmas break project, tap into local water resources to use for heat dump then build chiller big enough to utilize heat dump, then build crunching farm big enough to utilize chiller. priority: run all off municipal resources :D

Or remote well :) Really depends on where you live :) If you are far out where land isn't expensive, geothermal is valid option :)

[weescott]

Pete, you told me on messenger that you built your cascade already. Was that a different unit? Any pics? results? specs? You still havent built a single stage that I know of. Can you provide any pictures of the other units you have built?

[[XC] gomeler]

Or remote well :) Really depends on where you live :) If you are far out where land isn't expensive, geothermal is valid option :)

When I finally get to build a house I actually plan on having an inground pool and will be heating it with a chiller to actually cool a small data center. This is also if a few of my web-related projects pan out and I can get a commercial fibre line dropped into said house :eek: I've got plans, just need the reason and money :D

edit: by heat with a chiller I mean use a larger watercooled condenser, thought I'd clarify :shrug:

[Pete]

Hold on, everyone is talking about it like it's a freaking water chiller when it's not.


Pete, you told me on messenger that you built your cascade already. Was that a different unit? Any pics? results? specs? You still havent built a single stage that I know of. Can you provide any pictures of the other units you have built?

Yup sold it for more it cost me to build. Auto C to casscade are differnt

Auto c 1 or more stages with 1 compresser

Cascacde 1 or more stages with 1 compresser per stage

^ In short

I've built 4 Single stages and modded 2 Machs and 2 Vapo UK LS.

I would post them here but i know exactly whats going too happen and like a few other builders i hold off on doing so due to XS taking a huge ginat new low.

[jinu117]

huh? You lost me on last sentence Pete?

[boshuter]

huh? You lost me on last sentence Pete?


I think I understood it perfectly :yepp:

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Most seem to only harp about sub quality work, here it seems every one is demanding good quality work with proper brazing don and such with technical accuracy.

Frankly thats a good thing thats why some one can trust usually the stuff that comes from members, not to mention it they get to see the stuff in pics.

From what you said I have to assume they would fail quality, at best they're not aesthetically nice (In which case you tell them to sod off!)

In other words your incriminating you self, at least that is what it sounds to me and to be brutally frank from what you've shown you lack a good understanding of liquid cooled condensing and yet are trying to shove it in some thing.

That makes me wonder as to the quality of design of former projects and their efficiencies do they meet the F gas regs? Do they meet city and guilds regs? Do not forget if any thing goes wrong you will be held fully accountable by the local safety boards for any damage caused by the units AND for venting of refrigerant from said failures. The laws are getting a hell of allot stricter too!

Again @ every one: Remember basic thermodynamics where does heat flow? What determines how fast it flows and the volume, what factors help heat to flow in a medium.

All so if any Canadians want to know the mechanical refrigeration code let me know, after being raped 155 dollars for not even an inch thick book I might as well pump out as much info from it as I can!

I have the B52-5!


@ Pete, you are not being singled out, you simply where the catalyst, I've been meaning to put this out on a general thread to raise awareness about the seriousness of it and the attached liabilities.

[Pete]

huh? You lost me on last sentence Pete?

Basicly XS was cool and the place to be yeah. Now it' not a place i personly and idealy would like to show my work off. The direct phase forum run by Ron etc etc are where i would.

XS was like the daddy of all forums to be for the latest kit news, reviews, testing, help etc etc. Now it's a :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: fest. You get less nastys said to you if you took a random kid off the streets to a bloody mothers metting and sat there :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:ing about what your husband does all day and night whilest drinking coffie.

Xeon - There is way way way way way way too much getto going on in build. I hate it, it's unsafe, it look cheap, tacky and non skill full. I could build an SS, a simple one right and just get loads of old copper pipe and randomly pack it all in there etc etc and oo that looks amazing and really complicated for say an auto c.

Making something really clean, really clear, looks simple on the layout takes more though, go, practise than what meets the eye.

Take a casscade made by 2 well know users here.

Luke XE - The Getto Queen, creater of it, master of it, only guy that makes something that cost 10K look like it was made in china in the likes of shang hi for 50 cents

BazX - OCD for clean lines. This is whom every body and anybody that does phase needs to go and check his skills and work. Really really stunning and amazing bits of work for everything. Takes the time, think it through and pulls it off 100%. His stuff aint simple but to the eye it is. I coul buy one of his, it breaks and i could get any phase builder thats done a casscade and understand them to fix it. Why cos Bazx makes it easy and simple to follow everything. Thus is also good for understanding how it work, if there is a fault, to mod it, change failed parts, upgrade etc etc

Liquid cooled condensing is new. I only heard about it after Bazx started it and the results where amazing. Then Sachs and 4Qman finished the SS off and wow look at what can be done!

At the end of the day i don't care what people say, sad thing is no one in turth has the guts to say it to my face anymore. I speak my mind, i do what i want and i live life to learn by my experinces and mistakes.

The post here was after Nol said about an Auto c. I was thinking humm, uber low temps and it hold a huge load, that be cool. Okay so how can i spice it up...(hense the topic) with some new ways to cool stuff and parts used.

I don't see it's that hard to understand the topic. 1 persone that has left XS (same reasons i listed above) knew exactly what i ment in my 1st post in this topic!

As you can see reading back, what i posted above has happend in my topic here.

[PhilippF]

Hey guys, please cool down. I also love nice tidy work (even for test build), but some other guys like ghetto builds, sometimes they are forced to because they cant afford all new parts. I know there is a lot of trouble surrounding LukeXE at the moment but if you look a little bit further than the ugly brazing and reused copper tubing, you can see that he is quite skilled with his builds. He makes autocascades using camping quality propane and CO2 which is not very easy and has to braze everything with a air/MAPP torch. If you can afford a new compressor, condensor and tubing every time you build something, its much easier to make it look neat and tidy.

What I miss at XS is the tech discussions that were going on 2005 and 2006 (unfortunately I wasnt at XS at that time yet, but I read a lot of these old threads). All the stuff about autocascades was really exciting.

So please, if you built something nice (or not-so-nice, but cool working), please post it on XS, there are a lot of people who appreciate it.

Regards,

Philipp

[Moc]

He makes autocascades using camping quality propane and CO2 which is not very easy

Hey Phillipp :),
Autocascades with R290 and Co2 is the most easiest way to build a autocascade. :) And if you build a (auto)cascade for a costumer, you should budget enough copper to not to be forced to reuse tubes...

Hope you understand my bad english :) if not, excuse me and write me a PM (@EC) :) .

Grüße!

[[XC] gomeler]

I think I understood it perfectly :yepp:

Agreed.

[killermiller]

Xeon, what sort of component would you suggest to make this work? Bigger rad? Stronger pump?

[Pete]

Would 2 PA120.1's do it for you?

http://www.thermochill.com/PATesting/index.php#PA120

[Xeon th MG Pony]

liquide cooled condencers where the very first to be used with refrigeration, they are as old as refrigeration its self and there is very clear and time tested guide lines for it.

[killermiller]

The BIX 1/2/3 are 3124/6248/9396 btu per hour ratings. If you say the Thermochill perform even better that should give us an idea.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Xeon, what sort of component would you suggest to make this work? Bigger rad? Stronger pump?

It has to be engineered, but clearly to start the real question does it even offer an advantage to water cool it, if so then it will need to be sized accordingly.

But the way it is drawen there is no need or use for water cooled and might as well just use an air cooled one.

if it is going to benifit from liquid cooled then it most certainly should have a larger rad used with it, and for any real advantage it will need to be out where it can take in large volumes of fresh cool air.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

The BIX 1/2/3 are 3124/6248/9396 btu per hour ratings. If you say the Thermochill perform even better that should give us an idea.

At what tempriture gradient? IE Delta? Water out - air in? @ what ambient?

standerd design is 10K delta for the water cooled Hx, and 15K for a High efficiency radiator/Air cooled Condenser @ a 35C (95F) Ambient.

[Pete]

Look at the Thermochill specs i put up

[ak_47_boy]

Some things to think about.

Your radiator will still need to dissipate the same amount of heat as a condenser in a conventional system plus heat from pump. Therefore your radiator will still need to be the same size as a condenser from a conventional system.

As the temperature difference decreases so does the heat transfer. This is going to happen between your refrigerant and HX, water and HX, as well as your water and radiator. Instead of just between the refrigerant and condenser.

Also, the inner surface area of an HX is a lot less than the inner surface area of a condenser. The refrigerant inside is a gas, it is going to act just like air. Air needs a large surface area to transfer its heat to, epically when the temperature difference is so low.

[jinu117]

I will run some very approximate calculation here.
Heat dumped to heat exchanger at full load of system:
400-600w. (50% of motor winding+refrigerant carrying heat at 100% efficiency)
My approximate estimate for delta based on some water cooled condenser refrigereant temp vs water temp is about 3c.
I am not sure what the discharge of such cascaded gas would be but I would think it is safe to think in condensing point around 35c...
Now at ambient temperature of 28c, to remove that amount of heat using the spec written in Thermochill link given, we will need water temp to be 38c.
That retroactively goes saying condensing point (temperature of gas need to be around approximately 41c... about 6c off of our original projection. In turn adding more load on motor winding and increasing output but I won't know number till I try one).
6c condensing pressure increase considering gases utilized would net to about what I would think are about 20-30 psi increase in discharge pressure due to mixture of gases involved. Probably will bring up the suction pressure by about to 10psi.
If proper sized condenser was utilized, this could obviously have been kept down at 35c (guestimate based on standard really) condensing temperature.
Unless water cooled radiator's water temp is lower than ambient temperature, in all honesty, I can't see advantage. Only reason I would even thinking about using it myself would be in situation where proper sized air cooled condenser can't be used. Which I had to do with that watercooled radiator route for case that basically had no good airflow from front of case and using much larger sized water radiator than condenser I typically use. (no i didn't get better temperature in end, I just got quieter running and bit higher capacity system since my condensing capacity went up in that case for #1. bit higher condensing temperature, #2. Ability to remove more heat due to larger sized condenser).
There are also some air cooled coil designs that increases rapidly in capacity as temperature delta goes higher (which is what I use right now) which does make water cooled condenser kind of moot point unless temp of water medium is lower than ambient or I need to place it at remote location.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Standerd delta for Water cooled Hx: 10K
Standerd entering water on recirculating loop 85F (EDIT: The 85F will be messured at HX inlet 6" back)
Standerd Multiplier for hermetic compresors for heat rejection 35% ie Total heat absorbed from evap * 35% = Total heat to be rejected
Standerd design temp for Ambient 35C (95F)
Standerd required flow for recirculated water system 3GPM/TonH
8 to 15K Delta is acceptable for a water cooled HX with an ideal condencing range of 85 to 110F

Max Discharge 210F @ 250 your oil will carbonize on the valves and refrigerant will turn to acid (Messures 6" away from compressor outlet

Max compression ratio for Hermetics 20:1, 2 stage should be used after 10:1
Rotory compressors max compretion ratio 5:1.

For a high efficiency Air cooled condencer 15 to 20K Delta
1000FPM Face volocity with around 600-1200CFM/Ton H
Ideal condencing tempriture range is between 85F to 110F for air cooled

Standerd efficiency Condencers are 20 to 35K Delta air flow the same as above

Calculating the amount of heat need to be removed to reach a certain temp: Qs=M*C*Dt

Qs = Sensibe Heat in BTUs
M = Mass
C = The constenant of specific heat
Dt = Delta T, Starting temp - ending temp

There are some facts for ya.

[jinu117]

Where did you get those numbers?
I found 35% through testing of my unit and fervolously running through cool pack :)
Design temp of course dealing with condenser companies...
CFM of course again dealing with condenser companies :) These are nice numbers ot have in designing process for sure :)

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I'm taking a comercial refrigeration course, thats the numbers they have given us. An older engineer told me long ago 25% but thats only for semihermetic/open shaft compressors, for hermetic it is 35%

Not to mention I all ways try to engineer my systems not just slap them togeather, so I did a lot of researching long ago, your out side design temp will be the peack coldest expected and peak hotest expected for designing a head pressure controll system and sizing of the condencer

I added some more facts and such above.