recovery not possible?

[teyber]

alright what to do...

I am starting to dismantle a window ac. Just removing shroud and dead bugs in it(literally) so i can easily see what i need and what i don't need. Right off the discharge of compressor, there is a 1/4" tee, the high side port... but wtf? there is no schrader valve. It is crimped and brazed shut. No way to recover. The gas inside is r-22, so thats pretty terrible for enviro but what can i do?

Any suggestions welcomed besides spending lots of Of $$ to have a store do it and/or not taking it a part:p:

And second: I am getting a little uneasy about playing in there, thankfully there is a compressor diagram on it, but there are some really large capacitors and to be honest: im quite the electrical noob:shakes: I mean i can solder and know the basics in terms of computer electrical, But this stuff is all new to me.

Any safety suggestions, et cetera grately appreciated!


Reed

[PhilippF]

If there are no Schrader valves, you will need piercing valves for recovering.

For the electrics: Take care of capacitors, they store electricity and are still alive when you pull the plug. Just use an insulated screwdriver after plugging out to short the capacitors to make sure there is no charge left before playing on the unit.

You dont have to be a master electrician to wire up a compressor. Perhaps you just draw a diagram of the unit to be able to wire it up again afterwards.

Regards,

Philipp

[teyber]

If there are no Schrader valves, you will need piercing valves for recovering.

For the electrics: Take care of capacitors, they store electricity and are still alive when you pull the plug. Just use an insulated screwdriver after plugging out to short the capacitors to make sure there is no charge left before playing on the unit.

You dont have to be a master electrician to wire up a compressor. Perhaps you just draw a diagram of the unit to be able to wire it up again afterwards.

Regards,

Philipp
Piercing valves? I will do some research. Im antsy to get the compressor out...

About the grounging: Im not even sure where to to touch the screwdriver lol! ill post pics later. Do i just touch a screwdriver to the ground side of it? (the out part?)

[teyber]

http://cgi.ebay.com/SCHRADER-VALVE-PIERCING-A-C-REFRIGERATION-6ea-NEW_W0QQitemZ290178556867QQihZ019QQcategoryZ53303Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Like so?

[killermiller]

You need to brase those on, which isn't a good idea with refrigerant inside. There is a clamp tool which it pretty much vise grips with one of those attached.

like this (http://www.northwaysmachinery.com/productdisplay.asp?cat=224)

[teyber]

Thanks miller, however picture isn't working for me?

[killermiller]

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/5997/piercead0.jpg

[Fujimitsu]

Using those pliars you're gonna have to completely drain the system correct? Can't leave that type of thing attached I'm assuming.

Sorry I'm new at this kind of thing myself, and in a similar situation with an AC. Doing an ac/chiller conversion and it's way overcharged :/.

Sorry to poke into your thread, like I said I'm in a similar situation so I'll watch what you do :D.

[teyber]

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/5997/piercead0.jpg
Ah thats darn nifty! so then you hook that up the the hoses to the recovery unit. Thanks mate! now where can i find some of those...
Using those pliars you're gonna have to completely drain the system correct? Can't leave that type of thing attached I'm assuming.

Sorry I'm new at this kind of thing myself, and in a similar situation with an AC. Doing an ac/chiller conversion and it's way overcharged :/.

Sorry to poke into your thread, like I said I'm in a similar situation so I'll watch what you do :D.
yes i will be draining the system completely. I only have use for this compressor, and maybe condensor(problably not...)
Yeah no problem! i don't mind a lil thread sharing :D

[[XC] gomeler]

Yeah once you pierce the copper you need to pull the entire charge out. There are smaller piercing valves that simply have 3-4 screws and a clamp, I use them, cost maybe $5 and works like a charm.

[killermiller]

linkage (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6X898)
These are what Gomeler is talking about.

[teyber]

thanks guys! so helpful! I will order that sometime today. (lol still need recovery unit :( )
So you tighten down the allen cap and it slowly peirces it? I don't need partial recovery. Just cheap :D

And on that topic, For a cheap recovery unit what do you guys recomend? they are going for 150$ minimum plus 50$ shipping...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Promax-RG3305-Oilless-Ref-Recovery-Unit-W-Bonus-LQQK_W0QQitemZ150181822939QQihZ005QQcategoryZ10948 8QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
somethign like so? the price of that will problably go up to 50$... Can that handle refrigerants like r-22 and later r507a?
Thanks so much!

[killermiller]

I would ask the seller what is was made for. I personally would save up a little cash for one that you can use for high pressure refrigerants.

[Fujimitsu]

thanks guys! so helpful! I will order that sometime today. (lol still need recovery unit :( )
So you tighten down the allen cap and it slowly peirces it? I don't need partial recovery. Just cheap :D

And on that topic, For a cheap recovery unit what do you guys recomend? they are going for 150$ minimum plus 50$ shipping...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Promax-RG3305-Oilless-Ref-Recovery-Unit-W-Bonus-LQQK_W0QQitemZ150181822939QQihZ005QQcategoryZ10948 8QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
somethign like so? the price of that will problably go up to 50$... Can that handle refrigerants like r-22 and later r507a?
Thanks so much!

Check craigslist, I've seen a few recovery systems on there in the midwest, since Cali uses that site a lot more you might get lucky. A lot of business are required to have them, and when they go under you can pick up some great deals. Craigslist is a gold mine for tools!

Side question: How would I be able to release some refrigerant, but not all of it? Everything I've seen is either installed during building, or used or a total drain. I'd really rather not rebuild the AC I'm using, I have access to a vacuum pump and all but I really don't want to braze....

[[XC] gomeler]

Yeah make sure it can safely recover R507 and possibly R410, but at the least R507/R404.

[killermiller]

If you have a recover cylinder, you can pull a vacuum in it, connect your hose and manifold and let the pressure from your system and the vacuum from the cylinder push/pull some out. The problem is if you don't have a cylinder... But you can check craigslist...:D

[Fujimitsu]

If you have a recover cylinder, you can pull a vacuum in it, connect your hose and manifold and let the pressure from your system and the vacuum from the cylinder push/pull some out. The problem is if you don't have a cylinder... But you can check craigslist...:D

Couldnt you just use a propane tank or something similar? A lot of places offer you money for returning empty ones, so you could get some $ back when you're done if you don't just have one laying around.

[killermiller]

But the cylinder wouldn't be empty anymore...
There are threads where people modded a propane cylinder to a recover cylinder but that isn't my style. I actually bought my cylinders of craigslist...

[[XC] gomeler]

Yeah, recovery cylinders are dirt cheap if you search around.

[teyber]

i was talking with wdrzl and he 100% recomended me to get new containers. He said that they needed to be like dot 30 certified, and after 5 years they need to be maintenenced and after another 5 years they can no longer be used. I would like to use these tanks however :D

And about the propane tanks
If i do not plan on taking the refrigerant to a store but to re-charge a system with the recovered refrigerant, why wouldn't a propane tank work? talking recovering 1 unit, and then recharging... Maybe vac the tank?

[Fujimitsu]

If i do not plan on taking the refrigerant to a store but to re-charge a system with the recovered refrigerant, why wouldn't a propane tank work? talking recovering 1 unit, and then recharging... Maybe vac the tank?

This is what I was thinking, you would reuse the refrigerant.

Reason I brought it up was that I was looking into this a few weeks ago, and with no luck buying used It's like $100 for a new one. :(

[teyber]

This is what I was thinking, you would reuse the refrigerant.

Reason I brought it up was that I was looking into this a few weeks ago, and with no luck buying used It's like $100 for a new one. :(

I think its 49.99$ for a 30lb or maybe 39.99$?
Keep in mind if your not going to re-use it and you take it to an hvac shop, that is a propane tank filled with a refrigerant, that they will fine you hundreds of dollars :slap: due to violations of the clean air movement :(

[Fujimitsu]

I think its 49.99$ for a 30lb or maybe 39.99$?
Keep in mind if your not going to re-use it and you take it to an hvac shop, that is a propane tank filled with a refrigerant, that they will fine you hundreds of dollars :slap: due to violations of the clean air movement :(

The price I was referring to was for a proper recovery cylinder, I've got plenty of propane ones! :)

[killermiller]

The fittings are different for one... and Fuji, you mentioned that your system was overcharged so you wouldn't be returning it to the system. Did you check craigslist?

[Fujimitsu]

The fittings are different for one... and Fuji, you mentioned that your system was overcharged so you wouldn't be returning it to the system. A recovery cylinder should be like $65.

I wouldn't but I wouldn't need to return the cylinder, I was just saying that for his purposes.
Sorry to be so confusing.
Where would I buy a proper recovery cylinder? And if I do, would I just vac it and then fill it with a straight connection?

[killermiller]

Well a local HVAC store but they probably won't sell unless you have an EPA cert. If that is the case, craigslist is your only option.

And if I do, would I just vac it and then fill it with a straight connection?

That is what I would do. I would do that anyway if all I needed was to take a little out even though I have a recovery machine. I am not sure what other people do.

[jinu117]

Let's keep things legal here guys. I believe you are talking about breaking more than few laws (local/state/federal) recovering to BBQ propane tanks, working without recovery machine, etc and no it isn't few hundred dollar fines. It is more in range of brand new car price or potential jail term.

[teyber]

Let's keep things legal here guys. I believe you are talking about breaking more than few laws (local/state/federal) recovering to BBQ propane tanks, working without recovery machine, etc and no it isn't few hundred dollar fines. It is more in range of brand new car price or potential jail term.

Alright sorry jin!
I 100% want to recover, and correctly. Thats why i started this thread:up:
For recovery unit i really want a promax but $ will tell

[jinu117]

Actually I have Promaxx but I would have much preferred Appion one. But than when I got this, I wasn't in trade... bleh.

[killermiller]

Jin, What would be a good procedure to remove a small amound of refigerant to a recovery tank?

Teyber, I got a promax rg5410a off ebay for about 200. I like it. It is pretty loud though.

Those g5's look pretty nice.

[teyber]

Jin, if i plan to re-use refrigerant, and i want to switch between different gases without changing oil, should i get oil less recovery unit? i have heard that you can use different gases without changing oil because the refrigerant does not pick it up, then i have also heard the exact opposite.

I defiantly cannot afford a Appion one... If your ever interested, Throw me a PM if you are looking to get rid of the Promaxx :D

Edit: killer sorry read yoru post after i posted. I would liek to spend between 100-150$ max. I will have a starting budget of around 400$ on tools, including vac, Manifold, Maybe refrigerant, and recovery... (i can dish out more, but thats general price range)

[jinu117]

Just like when you vaccum your system clean up the recovery tank throughly on virgin use. It's filled with nitrogen typically. Each recovery tank is little different but vaccum the lines used before opening any valves, put a suction filter drier in recovery line to trap any contaminants. Turn on/open vavles up wait till it gets to legal level. You can do whatever you want beyond that. Key thing is, you don't want contaminated refrigerant in there. If you know system is contaminated, use different tank for collecting those. Typically 1 for clean gas, 1 for dirty gas. I really need to go out and get few more tanks myself at this point. I don't have dirty tank for 2 of the gas I plan to use shortly -_-;
I will have to think about that Teyber. I just missed sale a month ago on appion... bleh.

[killermiller]

Jin, if i plan to re-use refrigerant, and i want to switch between different gases without changing oil, should i get oil less recovery unit? i have heard that you can use different gases without changing oil because the refrigerant does not pick it up, then i have also heard the exact opposite.

I defiantly cannot afford a Appion one... If your ever interested, Throw me a PM if you are looking to get rid of the Promaxx :D

Edit: killer sorry read yoru post after i posted. I would liek to spend between 100-150$ max. I will have a starting budget of around 400$ on tools, including vac, Manifold, Maybe refrigerant, and recovery... (i can dish out more, but thats general price range)

I would try to expand that budget a little. I bought a 2 valve manifold and then I ended up buying a 4 valve. So much easier to vacuum and charge. It also has a 3/8 hose so it vacuums faster too. Besides you will end up finding other odd tools you want. I got a core depresser so I can connect the hoses and vacuum before I depress the core. That way I know that there is no air in the hoses before I charge with refrigerant. I bought a cheap vacuum pump and I wish I hadn't. You will probaly want ball valves or antiblowback fittings

The 2 valve J/b without hoses was like 60 buck @ Johnstones. The 4 valve with 3 1/4 hoses and a 3/8 was 180.

[teyber]

Just like when you vaccum your system clean up the recovery tank throughly on virgin use. It's filled with nitrogen typically. Each recovery tank is little different but vaccum the lines used before opening any valves, put a suction filter drier in recovery line to trap any contaminants. Turn on/open vavles up wait till it gets to legal level. You can do whatever you want beyond that. Key thing is, you don't want contaminated refrigerant in there. If you know system is contaminated, use different tank for collecting those. Typically 1 for clean gas, 1 for dirty gas. I really need to go out and get few more tanks myself at this point. I don't have dirty tank for 2 of the gas I plan to use shortly -_-;
I will have to think about that Teyber. I just missed sale a month ago on appion... bleh.
filled with nitrogen eh:rolleyes:
Enough to use for our purposes?
I would try to expand that budget a little. I bought a 2 valve manifold and then I ended up buying a 4 valve. So much easier to vacuum and charge. It also has a 3/8 hose so it vacuums faster too. Besides you will end up finding other odd tools you want. I got a core depresser so I can connect the hoses and vacuum before I depress the core. That way I know that there is no air in the hoses before I charge with refrigerant. I bought a cheap vacuum pump and I wish I hadn't. You will probaly want ball valves or antiblowback fittings

The 2 valve J/b without hoses was like 60 buck @ Johnstones. The 4 valve with 3 1/4 hoses and a 3/8 was 180.
Perhaps i will want a better vac pump... I was thinking in the 1/4hp range however. I found a deal, 130$ for 30lbs of r-22 and a relativly cheap manifold. I think i will get that and later get the larger manifolds. Thanks for all your replies guys!

[killermiller]

If you have your cert, r-22.com had if for 89 last time I looked.

-Edit-
I just looked and that is if you buy a leak detector too.

[teyber]

yes, thats where the deal for manifold+r-22 is.... lol.

I will be taking the class and trying to get my full 608 cert over x-mas break. If i do not get around to it, i will just take the open book online exam for 608 1, and then take the whole class over the summer.

Reed

[teyber]

I would try to expand that budget a little. I bought a 2 valve manifold and then I ended up buying a 4 valve. So much easier to vacuum and charge. It also has a 3/8 hose so it vacuums faster too. Besides you will end up finding other odd tools you want. I got a core depresser so I can connect the hoses and vacuum before I depress the core. That way I know that there is no air in the hoses before I charge with refrigerant. I bought a cheap vacuum pump and I wish I hadn't. You will probaly want ball valves or antiblowback fittings

The 2 valve J/b without hoses was like 60 buck @ Johnstones. The 4 valve with 3 1/4 hoses and a 3/8 was 180.

About the tools: I want to buy good tools that i can use for a long, long time. However i want to buy the basic tools (decent quality) for building a SS. Once i know i can do it, and know i want to continue this and/or build a line for customers, I will get all sorts of refrigerants, Load testers, et cetera. Money is not an issue for me. I am stingy with it and spend it sparingly. Thanks so much for all the help, everybody!
Will be ordering a peircing valve along with an recovery unit and tank.


Reed

[jinu117]

For truely clean evac you will most likely need vavle core removal/evacing tool. This speeds up vaccum time by about 3-4 times. Doesn't matter what size of vaccum pump you have... they are rated at free flowing air CFM which means nothing once vaccum is involved. (Unless you have big system which would make difference) Typically HVAC/R people carry around 2-4 CFM vacuum pump for typical job as walk in chillers/household A/C. If I had known better, I would have not gotten this 6cfm one I have now and opted for something more power efficient and less noiser. In fact, I use this as backup and use my old lab grade 2cfm most of time as it is much quieter and can vaccuum even deeper.
All you need to look at vacuum pump actually is how low of micron it can go down to, and the antiblow back (which most rotary vane pump should have), and shut off valve (or superevac manifold kit stuff). And of course 2 stage pump. Price won't be signifincantly cheaper as only real difference typically is in motor.