View Full Version : SFF Design Nightmares
I should have seen this coming. My son wants a SFF style semi-lanparty-fragbox, but also would like if possible to have water cooling. Its for showing off at his friend's houses when they have their parties...
I told him to find me a case that he is agreeable with. First things first, I can't stand small cases, so nobody should expect me to look at a small case and call it attractive. However, I have to agree with him that this case looks pretty snazzy
With window:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=361&products_id=21088
No window:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=361&products_id=3487
As for components, I have ***no idea** what mobo to buy. Ideas will be really helpful. Overclocking is 100% not necessary.
I'm going to use 2 GB of Corsair Dominator 8500C5 just because I have it. I going to use either a new 8800GTS or a 8800GT, if I can find those cards on time. Otherwise, I will use a regular spare 8800GTX... If there is no space, the system may just have to suffer with onboard sound. Otherwise, I have a spare X-Fi XMusic.
CPU.. I don't know. The Q6600G0s are so cheap now that dual core makes no sense. At the same time, a dual core can be clocked higher.
As for water cooling, I originally thought of {drum roll.. insert fanboy jokes here} a Swiftech H2O-120. However, that particular Silverstone SFF case has no 120 mm fan mountings ! I may be forced to build the system around 80 mm Black Ice radiators !
Radbox off-the-back is not an option. Actually, the system preferrably has those sealed style cooling mechanism (err... hopefully not CoolIT). The boy has to lug a gym bag complete with a 17 inch LCD and wireless keyboard/mouse. BTW, the boy is just 12 years old, so he can't carry too much weight on his shoulders. Kids these days are just too demanding.. I offered him Zalman heatsinks and he scoffed at me.. something about losing reputation lol
Anyone know of any more watercooling friendly SFF cases ?
Cyprio
10-30-2007, 11:58 AM
Does it have to be a SFF case as i agree you will struggle to get W/C in one.
What about a compromise ( Lian-Li PC-A05B ) - http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=315&products_id=21170
Found some more pics of it here: http://www.3dgameman.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47882. The last one next to a monitor is a good comparison for size.
Uuuh, tough work, buddy!
Consider this case here - http://aspireusa.net/category.php?cid=41
http://aspireusa.net/images/products/X-QPACK-AL-0_500.jpghttp://aspireusa.net/images/products/X-QPACK-AL-4_500.jpg
http://aspireusa.net/images/products/X-QPACK-AL-10_500.jpghttp://aspireusa.net/images/products/X-QPACK-AL-8_500.jpg
You can see it here handle H2O-Compact - http://swiftnets.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=346
I can see the mod for another 120mm rad in the front - just rotate the optical 90C so its vertical and you're on! Uuuh, just the thought of it! :slobber:
Though it does not seem to be able to enclose a long video card. :shrug:
I am actually liking the idea - lanparty/server/portable boxie thingie with you everywhere. :D
BravoDog
10-30-2007, 12:25 PM
The only real w/c friendly sff case I'm aware of is the Qmicra (http://www.pcdesignlab.com/), but it is big and ex$pensive.
The SG01 can be w/c'd, but it is mod intensive. A decent one I have seen used 2 120 rads, one strapped to the intake of the PSU and the other on the floor just forward of the mobo, under the 5.25 bays (intake on the underside of the case).
I w/c'd a Lian Li V300 using the Apogee Drive and a 2x120 rad. I had to do a some hacking of the case (removing the 3.5 bay). I'm still looking at changing it around as I'm not completely happy with it.
8800GT/GTS is on the upper threshold of many the sff cases. I'm looking into I can make it fit in my case (it will be close). With the SF01, I think you will have to remove the 3.5 cage and relocate the HDD in a 5.25 bay.
Another case to look at is the SG03.
I don't know if I would recommend a 2x80 rad for a quad core.
xVeinx
10-30-2007, 12:35 PM
Something tells me his Dad is rubbing off on him :p:. As for the case, Ultra carry some nice ones that can be found on xoxide, frys.com, and the brick and mortar Frys (as well as Tiger, but I can't stand them, soooo....). Good luck!
Walternowi
10-30-2007, 12:40 PM
IanY,
I built my son a SFF with the SG-01. It IS small. I can barely fit everything inside with air cooling. I am not sure if you can fit a large video card and a sound card in there. To watercool this, you might need to get the MCP350 pump with the reservior (ala Corsair Nautilus) to fit in a 5 1/4" bay, a low profile CPU block. Might have to attach a dual radiator at the top or on the side with some standoff screws. It might be a good idea to use compression fittings for the external mounted components. Just my 2 cents.
Gentlemen,
A million thanks to all.
I suppose SFF is going to be next to impossible, unless its the Aspire with the Swiftech radiator off the back (many thanks, Mord), and definitely Dominator ram and Dominator fan are out of the question here. But what a snazzy way to show off a Raptor-X with window.. little boys are impressed by nonsense like that !
For Cyprio, my initial reaction was also the Lian Li A05. I am partial to Lian Li myself. I suppose the little boy will have to make some choices.
For Walternowi, I guess air cooling is tough enough for the SG01. I see no way of implementing a decent water cooling system in that case. An external radiator device and compression fittings would be good for people like us, not for eager 12 year olds with the grace of cattle lol
Many thanks again to all. Cheers.
Boy, how did you miss it?! You're a regular at Swiftech forums (fanboy here :D ).
Nevermind...
Actually that made me draw a little something for ya bud. Don't laugh - it's at first stage. Dimensions are correct. Problem is it's gonna be a big PITA to fit a rad inside, even a single one. :( But some modding will do.
Here's what I had in mind:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/2475/sffwc1hd4.th.png (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sffwc1hd4.png)
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9641/sffwc2pb3.th.png (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sffwc2pb3.png)
W.I.P....
EDIT: With blocks:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6872/sffwc3xd7.th.png (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sffwc3xd7.png)
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8134/sffwc4lx3.th.png (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sffwc4lx3.png)
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/4841/sffwc5rs8.th.png (http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sffwc5rs8.png)
A very close shot with the VGA. This is a 7900GS in the model. I say DO IT! If you manage to put that much of :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: in this small casey thingy - oyu would be like god! :D
I am still working on it - could not figure which 120mm rad is smallest - PA's and BI micro (as in model) are way too big.
This happen tomorrow. Now me must eat, must sleep... :zombie:
AMDfreak
10-30-2007, 02:11 PM
What about the new H2Go from Mountain Mods (http://www.mountainmods.com/computer-cases-h2go-c-21_81.html)? I'm thinking of using one of these for a semi-portable WC frag box / system for the wife to use.
Fujimitsu
10-30-2007, 02:17 PM
What about the new H2Go from Mountain Mods (http://www.mountainmods.com/computer-cases-h2go-c-21_81.html)? I'm thinking of using one of these for a semi-portable WC frag box / system for the wife to use.
I hadnt seen this thing before, pretty sharp I must say.
That design looks pretty promising, enough room for a decent water setup along with some solid hardware. Its big enough for an ATX mobo, which I would think is a plus.
While it's not necessarily tiny, it's light and good quality (im assuming... its MM), I think if you can stomach the price it'd be a good choice. Its probably the smallest/lightest case you're going to find that could accept watercooling easily.
BravoDog
10-30-2007, 02:25 PM
Here was my build during the tubing mockup phase:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/drmccormick/TubingMockup3.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/drmccormick/TubingMockup2.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/drmccormick/TubingMockup1.jpg
any GPU will have to be no longer than the mobo which is 9.6"
note that most of the parts are "old":
Biostar T-Force 939-6100
nForce 7800gt
x-FI gamer
This is about the pimpest SG01 I've seen: LINK (http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/forums/viewthread/95399/)
W/C'd Qmicra: LINK (http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1212553&highlight=bloodmoon)
People, does anyone reads this:
My son wants a SFF style semi-lanparty-fragbox, but also would like if possible to have water cooling. Its for showing off at his friend's houses when they have their parties...
The boy has to lug a gym bag complete with a 17 inch LCD and wireless keyboard/mouse. BTW, the boy is just 12 years old, so he can't carry too much weight on his shoulders.
Assuming we find a nice alu case. That's at least 4-5kgs. With the hardware and stuff +5 kilos. I don't think anything ATX, even the smallest is an option. Consider at least 2kgs more only for the chassis, so that's a no go, IMO.
Omastar
10-30-2007, 02:34 PM
The Aspire Q-Pack cases (at least the first version which I have, no window) are really flimsy. I bent the hell out of the case lid just handling it normally. Also note that the thumbscrews WILL warp the hell out of the metal when securing the lid to the case. It's super light, sure, but you pay the price; don't look at it wrong or it may warp. The carrying handle is also extra flimsy feeling, cheap plastic garbage. The case is adequate for a server that you'll never move, but for a lanbox, I'd go for something sturdier, even at the cost of added weight.
BravoDog
10-30-2007, 02:36 PM
People, does anyone reads this:
Assuming we find a nice alu case. That's at least 4-5kgs. With the hardware and stuff +5 kilos. I don't think anything ATX, even the smallest is an option. Consider at least 2kgs more only for the chassis, so that's a no go, IMO.
I would consider the Shuttle SP35-P2 PRO to be one of the lightest sff at 7.25 kilos, and that has no ATX (meaning PSU or mobo) sized items and no h20. LINK (http://us.shuttle.com/barebone/Models/sp35p2_pro.html)
Fujimitsu
10-30-2007, 02:38 PM
People, does anyone reads this:
Assuming we find a nice alu case. That's at least 4-5kgs. With the hardware and stuff +5 kilos. I don't think anything ATX, even the smallest is an option. Consider at least 2kgs more only for the chassis, so that's a no go, IMO.
If you're refering to the mountainmods case, it's 11lbs.
And the only difference between using it in ATX and mATX is the board, so maybe a few ounces more at most.
What cases do you see lighter than this? That are of decent quality? even cheapy all-plastic mATX cases are 10lbs ish.
Watercooling is going to add weight, I'd be more worried about the weight of your components than the weight of the case.
11lbs is very light, especially for a sturdy case, if the kids 12 I'd want something durable.
Just FYI a bit of googling returned that a Q-xpack is approximately 11lbs, shuttle one looks to be the same or heavier (sites vary, manufacturer doesnt say.)
And with either of those cases watercooling is gonna be very rough, and require lots of modding.
BravoDog
10-30-2007, 02:46 PM
[QUOTE=Fujimitsu;2523566]
...Just FYI a bit of googling returned that a Q-xpack is approximately 11lbs, shuttle one looks to be the same or heavier (sites vary, manufacturer doesnt say.)QUOTE]
Per Shuttle's website, 16 lbs: LINK (http://us.shuttle.com/P2_3500G_5.aspx)
Food nice...
Aham... now obviusly the hunger got me before. :D My bad really. :(
Seriously my point was both weight and size. A don't see a 12 year old carrying a box 50x50x50 on his back or in arms along with a huge bag.
IanY, can I be your son, pretty please. A can draw many nice pictures and can do computer stuff. :p:
What about the new H2Go from Mountain Mods (http://www.mountainmods.com/computer-cases-h2go-c-21_81.html)? I'm thinking of using one of these for a semi-portable WC frag box / system for the wife to use.
Thanks. H2G0 is very nice, but its not so convenient on the "Go" part :) Again, this is for a 12 year old boy. He has to be able to lug the PC and a 17 inch LCD around, in and out of the trunk of various parents' cars, and carry the sucker upstairs to whoever's bedroom or den. Come to think of it, carrying this crap is a no go anyway. He'll need a luggage cart. Don't want a kid with a hernia.
any GPU will have to be no longer than the mobo which is 9.6"
note that most of the parts are "old":
Biostar T-Force 939-6100
nForce 7800gt
x-FI gamer
This is about the pimpest SG01 I've seen: LINK (http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/forums/viewthread/95399/)
W/C'd Qmicra: LINK (http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1212553&highlight=bloodmoon)
Thanks for your wonderful pictures and the links. The SG01 indeed is the pimpest SFF I've ever seen. I am afraid I'm not of the same skill level and that is way too ambitious for me lol
I am *really* digging the Qmicra, but its slightly larger than most. At least it takes a G80.
Food nice...
Aham... now obviusly the hunger got me before. :D My bad really. :(
Seriously my point was both weight and size. A don't see a 12 year old carrying a box 50x50x50 on his back or in arms along with a huge bag.
IanY, can I be your son, pretty please. A can draw many nice pictures and can do computer stuff. :p:
Mord,
Very funny :) Oh I get crap about his desktop system as well, except that I'm not caving in there... he has hand-me-downs (naturally), but a one-year-old top-of-the-line-then system. One tends to wonder exactly what sort of games a pre-teen wants to install lol... don't worry.. my GTA San Andreas is locked up haha
Nate P.
10-30-2007, 03:51 PM
Ian, you are one generous father... I'm 13yo myself, and my parents don't buy me a water cooled computer just to show off to my friends...
Anyhow, I second the Qmicra and the Silverstone.
SiGfever
10-30-2007, 03:53 PM
Thanks for your wonderful pictures and the links. The SG01 indeed is the pimpest SFF I've ever seen. I am afraid I'm not of the same skill level and that is way too ambitious for me lol
I am *really* digging the Qmicra, but its slightly larger than most. At least it takes a G80.
That is one sharp looking case. :up:
Put a luggage handle on top and away you go.
CyberDruid
10-30-2007, 04:13 PM
I third that motion Qmicra is made of win. Any SFF that can handle a 240 rad is something Dr. Who would be inerested in ;)
Qmicra case review.
http://www.sfftech.com/index.php?/articles/show/qmicra_review/introduction
Ian, you are one generous father... I'm 13yo myself, and my parents don't buy me a water cooled computer just to show off to my friends...
Anyhow, I second the Qmicra and the Silverstone.
Its just a computer. Its hadly the most expensive thing he has. You don't see the other side of the equation. I'm a hard driving father who demands excellence and takes no excuses for anything outside of excellence. So, I'm not as "cool" as you may think :D
Nate P.
10-30-2007, 04:44 PM
Its just a computer. Its hadly the most expensive thing he has. You don't see the other side of the equation. I'm a hard driving father who demands excellence and takes no excuses for anything outside of excellence. So, I'm not as "cool" as you may think :D
LOL! Well all I can say to your son is... USE THAT PC LIKE YOU STOLE IT AND KICK SOME MAJOR LAN PARTY ASS!:up: :up:
Walternowi
10-31-2007, 11:24 AM
BravoDog,
:bows: :bows: :bows:
You have skills that I can only dream of. Bravo!
Here was my build during the tubing mockup phase:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/drmccormick/TubingMockup3.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/drmccormick/TubingMockup2.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/drmccormick/TubingMockup1.jpg
any GPU will have to be no longer than the mobo which is 9.6"
note that most of the parts are "old":
Biostar T-Force 939-6100
nForce 7800gt
x-FI gamer
BravoDog
10-31-2007, 01:53 PM
Walternowi:
Thanks for the complement, but I woundn't say I have 'skills' maybe some patience. It was a fun project and a great stress reliever.
I accidently fell into watercooling the V300. The plan was to downsize from a Lian Li V1200 Plus to gain back some office space, but the noise from the CPU heatsink (being starved of cool air) and 80mm fans made using it unbearable, I went to silencing it. Hence the "Love Hate Relationship with SFF".
IanY:
Mord brought up some good points about weight to ponder. I transport my computer every week and to tell you the truth, the watercooling parts and the PSU make the computer very heavy for the size (feels like I'm hauling a box of copper). Also, the shape doesn't help, a lot of SFF cases are wider than standard cases making it more awkward b/c your arm is extended further away from your body. That is why I like the SG03 and Shuttles for transporting. I think that thinning up the width and weight is more paramount that filling it with water so a young, car-less kid can lug it around.
If you wanted to get really crazy (I know you mentioned your aren't into doing extensive modding), you could go and build a Q6600, 8800GT system based on one of these M-ITX mobos LINK1 (http://www.portwell.com.tw/products/WADE-8656_ec.html) LINK2 (http://www.globalamericaninc.com/new_spec/spec2.php?id=953). Or try to go more low power and run a Shuttle 400w PSU. Both ideas would require a custom case. But these are extreme systems that would focus on shrinking a gaming capable system. They are also systems that would probably fall off the performance curve very quickly (no oc capablilities, out of date chipset) not to mention very expensive $300-$450 for the board.
From my very limited experience with modding (this was my first), I would give this bit of advise:
When approaching a SFF, don't preselect a cooling concept. Instead assess the layout and select a cooling concept that best fits the layout. For instance, my case put the PSU intake fan is right above the CPU, the CPU and PSU were fighting each other for fresh air creating a stagnation zone right near the CPU. I knew I needed to get the CPU's heat to fresh air, so I used water to transport it to a more convenant place in the case, the intake. Water is great for that, so are heatpipes, but if you can manage the heat transfer right near the CPU, you may not need water.
BravoDog,
:bows: :bows: :bows:
You have skills that I can only dream of. Bravo!
if you want something portable why not just get a 17" gaming laptop?
BravoDog
10-31-2007, 03:55 PM
I haven't kept up with the gaming laptops, last I saw, the Asus c90 was top of the heep with a desktop C2D, 7950Go (possible 8600GT Go later) SLI. Oh, and just as a metric to put things into perspective: 11.9 lbs (actually just looked it up, some barebones sellers say 6.9 lbs built & VoodooPC says 11.9 lbs built, so I don't know what to believe there). But you got to love the form factor.
Do you know how well a gaming laptop would hold up running the newer games? What about the soon to be released ones?
I was looking into it at one point, but the $4500 build price looked very unattractive to me.
if you want something portable why not just get a 17" gaming laptop?
phantomferrari
10-31-2007, 04:52 PM
im suprised no one has mentioned the silverstone sg03 for a case for this project. its fairly small yet with lots more more than some of the others
disruptfam
10-31-2007, 05:19 PM
hey bravo dog
what rad,pump,block are you using?
BravoDog
10-31-2007, 06:41 PM
phantomferrari:
I thought I mentioned that I liked the SG03, however I don't know how friendly it is to watercooling.
disrupfam:
CPU Block & Pump: Swiftech Apogee Drive
GPU Block: Swiftech MCW60 w/Heatsinks
Radiator: Magicool Extreme Slim Profile 2X120mm Radiator (only for the 273.5mm length to fit in the case)
Reservoir: AquaComputing 3.5 Acrylic AquaBox (don't like this res)
How do you like your radiical reservoirs? Do you have a good pic showing the baffling of your resevoirs? I'm thinking I need to make my own. I'm suffering from perpetual airbubbles created in the reservoir. I've got a make shift solution, but I'm looking for a more robust design because I transport my rig alot.
Nate P.
10-31-2007, 07:12 PM
if you want something portable why not just get a 17" gaming laptop?
You don't get the cool water cooling effects with that...:D
kevinbo03
10-31-2007, 10:03 PM
Im surprised no one has pointed in this direction:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=154265
vBulletin® v3.7.0, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.