A question for TEC cooling experts...

[max_87]

I'm sure some of you here had already tried this before... but anyway here goes:

Consider a watercooling loop: CPU block -> pump -> radiator. What I'm planning to do is to add another block after the radiator and I'm going to cool this block by using a 130W TEC, the hot side will be cooled by a separate watercooling loop/heatsink. My processor is E6850. So basically I'm chilling the water by using this block.

The temperature that I'm aiming for is to bring the load temperature of my overclocked E6850 to near ambient levels, say around 35-40C. Is this doable? The ambient temperature in my country is 30C all the time except when it is raining :down:

So... yay or nay? :shrug: Any input is greatly appreciated :up:

[AliG]

imo, don't bother. Swiftech has already made something along those lines except using a 437w tec, but that just wasn't worth the time and money. I say either stick with water, or if you must, either build a chiller or get someone to build it for you, as chilling the water with a tec generally doesn't work out that well

[max_87]

The load temperature is typically around ~55C. Hm... so it can't even bring the temperature down for another 10-15C? I'm not aiming for very extreme temperatures here.

That's too bad :( I thought it would work. Anyway, thanks for the input.

[AliG]

hmm, what's in your current loop as it is right now? The x6800 at load will put out more than 130w of heat, so putting that tec in there wouldn't do you all that much, maybe 10-15c, but there would be better ways of doing that.

[max_87]

I'm still using an ancient ZM-WB2 waterblock and a single pass radiator :rofl: , but going to upgrade to this very soon:

Fuzion -> MCP355 -> MCR320QP

My friend has the exact same components (yup even the processor and mainboard, overclocked settings - 3.9GHz/1.45V) and his load temperature is typically around ~55-57C, ambient ~30-32C.
So my original plan was to add the ZM-WB2 into the loop:

Fuzion -> MCP355 -> MCR320QP -> ZM-WB2 -> back to Fuzion

The ZM-WB2 is going to be attached to the cold side of the 130W TEC, and the hot side will probably be cooled by a high end aircooler (which i already have)
Since most of the heat from the water has already been dissipated by the MCR320QP, I assumed that the 130W TEC at the ZM-WB2 should be able to cool down the water temperature a lot easier. Maybe at least 10-15C, that was what I thought.

[AliG]

The mcr320 is a pretty good radiator, though instead of spending all that money to cool the tec which will cool the liquid, you could put that money into getting a thermochill pa120.2 or pa120.3 instead of the mcr320. Check out the comparison between the pa120.2 and the mcr320, the 240mm pa120.2 actually demolished the 360mm mcr320. Top it off with a the mpc655 instead (wider tubing meaning better flow and theoretically better temps) and you'll be getting the lower temps you want without all the problems you'd run into by going tec (for one, you'd need an auxiliary 24v psu that aren't cheap).

[max_87]

Mind to link me to the comparison that you mentioned? :) Unfortunately ThermoChills are not available at my place :( The best radiator I can get here is MCR320QP. AFAIK, the MCR320QP and PA120.2 should have very similar performance unless there is a lot of heat to dissipate and since I'm cooling a dual-core CPU only, there shouldn't be that much of a difference. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually it is a 16V TEC, and I was planning to power it using my PSU, so it won't be actually running at 130W, maybe around 90-100W instead. I can get the TEC at around ~35USD. If I had to get an auxiliary PSU just for this, I wouldn't even consider doing this in the first place :ROTF:

So yeah, if I were to do this, I only have to spend on the TEC itself, and build a PWM module to control the TEC so that condensation does not occur. That shouldn't cost a lot.

[AliG]

couldn't quite find what I was looking for, but here's an older thread comparing the two (kinda)
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=130690&highlight=mcr320+pa120.2+review
and the nice thing about the pa120.2 is that it's smaller, has the same performance at higher cfms, and even better performance at silent speeds such as 600rpms using cheapo yate loon fans

[max_87]

ZOMG... the price...

I'm not exactly a silent freak, I can take a little bit of noise... normally I run my fans around 1200-1600RPM and space is not an issue for me. So I guess the MCR320QP should do the job just fine. But anyway, in my case I don't really have any choice since PA120.2 is not available here in the first place :ROTF:

[AliG]

ok, Just trying to save you a bit of space by recommending the pa120.2, but ohh well. At least consider getting the mcp655 instead of the mcp355 as you'll want the 1/2" tubing, that's always a plus

[max_87]

I already bought the MCP355 and microres quite some time ago, because my current Eheim 1048 is dying. I'll have to buy the petra top if I want to go with 1/2" tubing, but I think I'll stick to 3/8" for now, will upgrade sometime in future. Now I just need the Fuzion and MCR320QP to complete the upgrade :)

Thanks again for your input :up:

[littleowl]

imo, don't bother. Swiftech has already made something along those lines except using a 437w tec, but that just wasn't worth the time and money. I say either stick with water, or if you must, either build a chiller or get someone to build it for you, as chilling the water with a tec generally doesn't work out that well

I second that statement!!!

[AliG]

no problem, and it looks like littleowl supports the no tec opinion

[littleowl]

no problem, and it looks like littleowl supports the no tec opinion

I love playing with tecs but on the new chips they don't hold that well for the amount of heat! So I don't feel they ware worth the electric and trouble. I say go get chiller or ss! it works to hole the heat output and lets you oc.

[AliG]

Agreed, chillers are far more efficient, phases are better performance wise, but a chiller will allow for gfx to be in the loop. Ln2 or dice would be the most efficient, but those aren't 24/7 projects

[max_87]

Chillers and phase change are way beyond what I can afford, that's why I was thinking is there a cheap way to drop the temperature for another 10-15C further on the soon-to-be-installed watercooling stuff.

But since you guys said it won't work... I'll just forget about it :)

[Phantom2024]

You can find some cheap TEC on ebay and since you already have a air cooler and the water block why don't you just give it a shot.

[max_87]

Hm... true. I already have all the necessary stuff except the TEC itself. Guess I will give it a shot if I can get myself a cheap TEC... or if there is someone kind enough to donate me an unused one :ROTF:

I will post here if I actually attempted this, doesn't matter if it's a success or failure ;)

[littleowl]

I agree with phantom give it a try they are fun to play with but they cost just as much as chiller does.

don't forget you have get a meanwell psu to run the tec or cut up a psu to make it usable with a tec. you cant run a tec off of your pc psu!!! well unless you want a dead or on fire pc. :)

[AliG]

exactly what I stated earlier, you need a 24v rail auxiliary psu to power the tec, whether you sync it up with the main psu or not is up to you, but you will need the 24v rail

[littleowl]

exactly what I stated earlier, you need a 24v rail auxiliary psu to power the tec, whether you sync it up with the main psu or not is up to you, but you will need the 24v rail

it don't have to be 24v rail unless you get a 24v tec, the reason you have to get another psu is the amps that gets pulled off the rail. I only run a 12v 320w meanwell and like 40 something amps.

[max_87]

exactly what I stated earlier, you need a 24v rail auxiliary psu to power the tec, whether you sync it up with the main psu or not is up to you, but you will need the 24v rail

If you are talking about those monster TEC then yeah, I'll definitely need an external PSU. The 130W TEC that I mentioned will run with an ATX PSU just fine, provided that the PSU can supply enough amps for it.

[littleowl]

no it cant! because your tec draws lots of amps all the time and everything else in your system is also drawing amps. It is an unsafe practice to put a tec on a pc psu without cutting it up and modding it with bigger wires.
You have a nice chance of causing a fire

[max_87]

I never said anything about powering both the TEC and PC on the same PSU :D If I really want to play with that TEC, I will power it using my spare ATX PSUs.

[Mr Riddler]

Hi there ive been reading about tec's for a while now i have a pelt atm im just awaiting my power supply unit from ebay which is 400 watts and heres a link for an 350watt psu for tec's http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/350W-12V-29A-Switching-Power-Supply-CCTV-DVR-Security_W0QQitemZ160147683984QQihZ006QQcategoryZ4 8632QQcmdZViewItem

I have spare psu's but thought i wanted to have one of these babies due to being cheaper etc. I'm interested in tec's and phase change but since i dont have phase change im going to be playing with tec's.

I currently have 2 maze 4 gpu blocks that i will be using, i will have 2 water systems 1 (already running with tripple rad) to cool down cpu etc and the other 1 for the hot side (double rad) to the tec. ill let you know how i get on when i get my power supply.

[littleowl]

Mr riddler those are great psu's for running tec's
the maze 4 on the other hand are not very good blocks for tec because of the way the water flows. I have one also and it is ok to play with but remember if you want to make a really good tec setup you may want to think about a different block.

[Mr Riddler]

What block would you say is good to play with ?

[littleowl]

for a build your own a 6002 (watch ebay)
for just a couple good blocks
the artic web (http://www.wintschlabs.com/ArcticWeb.html)
mcw6500-T (http://www.swiftnets.com/)
and IMHO the best block fuzion (http://www.dtekcustoms.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=182)

[Mr Riddler]

for a build your own a 6002 (watch ebay)
for just a couple good blocks
the artic web (http://www.wintschlabs.com/ArcticWeb.html)
mcw6500-T (http://www.swiftnets.com/)
and IMHO the best block fuzion (http://www.dtekcustoms.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=182)

What is a 6002? I would watch ebay if i knew what that was lol

Is there any links that could help me in the uk?

[littleowl]

6002 (http://www.petrastechshop.com/d.html)

Great site to shop http://www.petrastechshop.com/cpuwaterblocks.html

[Mr Riddler]

Thanks, thats a good site for getting stuff only thing that puts me off is its based in the U.S:shakes:

[[XC] mysticmerlin]

The guy that runs that site is also a member of XS. Look him up and ask him about shipping to you. His name on here is Petera. :D

[Duh]

Thanks, thats a good site for getting stuff only thing that puts me off is its based in the U.S:shakes:

IIRC this guy has shipped to the ass of the world.. and london is not the ass of the world.. If I were you I would ask

[Mr Riddler]

Thanks for the help guys im looking forward into purchasing something from there :usa: :usa: ;)

[littleowl]

like I said Mr Riddler I would go with the fuzion it is the best block out there right now IMHO

[Mr Riddler]

:) :)

[Mr Riddler]

Ive ordered my stuff from that shop you recommended its a really good place. Hopefully the delivery aint too heavy:eek: :eek: :eek:

Ill let you know how i get on:cool: :cool:

[littleowl]

He is a great guy to deal with!

[pH(x)]

for a build your own a 6002 (watch ebay)
for just a couple good blocks
the artic web (http://www.wintschlabs.com/ArcticWeb.html)
mcw6500-T (http://www.swiftnets.com/)
and IMHO the best block fuzion (http://www.dtekcustoms.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=182)

I bought a D-Tek FuZion! For my E6600 L632B2 -- wouldn't dream of using it with a TEC though. I figure I'll wait for the lower power(heat) 45nm Penryn chips and cool that with a TEC as it would be a better efficiency/inefficiency match.

[littleowl]

the fuzion is the same block as the old 6002.. The 6002 was and still is IMO the best water block for tec. the fuzion has some changes but still works just about the same! It is a cheap way to do tec or you can get the artic web and pay a fortune!

[Mr Riddler]

Ive got myself i 225 watt tec now, i also bought a relay switch due to seeing peoples rigs when they forget to switch the tec off when the system power's down. Just another question is there any 320 watt tec's that are the same size as the 225 tec ? If so where can i get them.

[littleowl]

yes there is and you have to watch. check ebay. but watch because if you look and do the math even though they say they are 320w it may still be the 226w.. ebay would be the cheapest I think.

[Mr Riddler]

I found one on ebay not a bad price too.

[littleowl]

tec's are much, much cheaper on ebay but like I said you have to really watch the #'s because even though they say it is a 320w tec it may only be rated as a 226w

[Mr Riddler]

Ive got my 225 tec running @ 2.9ghz and it sits at -2 to -3 idle on the core and about 29-32 loaded im well happy with it atm.

I currently have a little project on the go chilling down the water with an air cooled tec ill let you know how i get on.

[initialised]

tec's are much, much cheaper on ebay but like I said you have to really watch the #'s because even though they say it is a 320w tec it may only be rated as a 226wA TEC with Qmax = 226W needs 320W (Pmax=Imax*Vmax) to do it. If they don't list both assume they are giving you Pmax. Also you can plug the values into the TEC calculator (on these boards somewhere) to check.

[initialised]

See file attached.

[Mr Riddler]

That text file i downloaded it comes up in mambo jumbo came up on the screen.

[littleowl]

A TEC with Qmax = 226W needs 320W (Pmax=Imax*Vmax) to do it. If they don't list both assume they are giving you Pmax. Also you can plug the values into the TEC calculator (on these boards somewhere) to check.

Yes I know this.


See file attached.


That file has been dead for years! We need a new on but even when it did work I was always off. If you look on pro-forums you will find one that worked decent.

[initialised]

That text file i downloaded it comes up in mambo jumbo came up on the screen.It needs to be renamed .XLS like it says in the filename. It seems too simplistic to be that useful.

I think that is the one from pro forums.

[max_87]

Guys, I just upgraded my WB to fuzion not long ago, got myself a cheap 130W TEC and gave it a shot. Guess what? It does nothing except drawing power from the PSU and generating heat :ROTF: LMAO

OT: Upgrading from ZM-WB2 to FuZion gave me about 5C improvement in temperature :D good, but not great. To be honest I was expecting more :p:

[initialised]

I agree with phantom give it a try they are fun to play with but they cost just as much as chiller does.

don't forget you have get a meanwell psu to run the tec or cut up a psu to make it usable with a tec. you cant run a tec off of your pc psu!!! well unless you want a dead or on fire pc. :)
Yes you can if your PSU has the juice, you've just got to be very careful not to melt, short or burn things cos the wires get very hot.

I'm guessing the reason you're not seeing a temperature drop from the TEC is because you don't have sufficient mounting pressure. Make a strong, stiff backplate to avoid bending your motherboard.

Also check that Qmax for the TEC is greater than the processors heat output. The calculator in the TEC and QuadCore thread is useful for guestimations.

[littleowl]

Yes you can if your PSU has the juice, you've just got to be very careful not to melt, short or burn things cos the wires get very hot.

I'm guessing the reason you're not seeing a temperature drop from the TEC is because you don't have sufficient mounting pressure. Make a strong, stiff backplate to avoid bending your motherboard.

Also check that Qmax for the TEC is greater than the processors heat output. The calculator in the TEC and QuadCore thread is useful for guestimations.

yes I know you can but your not aloud to recommend people to do it on xs because it is a safety problem and if you recommend it the mods can and will perma ban you.

Also the reason your wires get hot is because your psu can only run so many amps and if your mobo, ram, cpu, hdd, video card is taking a good chuck then the tec has to try and draw even harder! that is what causes a big fire!!

[initialised]

yes I know you can but your not aloud to recommend people to do it on xs because it is a safety problem and if you recommend it the mods can and will perma ban you.

Also the reason your wires get hot is because your psu can only run so many amps and if your mobo, ram, cpu, hdd, video card is taking a good chuck then the tec has to try and draw even harder! that is what causes a big fire!!I consider myself spanked. Can you quote the rule and post a link?

I got a shock of my aux PSU the other night, do we have to stop talking about them too?

[Duh]

I consider myself spanked. Can you quote the rule and post a link?

I got a shock of my aux PSU the other night, do we have to stop talking about them too?

does not exist such a rule as it would be stupid. If it existed youll have to ban the guys that fooled with ln2 and drank it :D

[Movieman]

I consider myself spanked. Can you quote the rule and post a link?

I got a shock of my aux PSU the other night, do we have to stop talking about them too?

As a friend, let me say to you that safety comes first here.
The last thing I'd ever want to hear is of someone having a housefire over a modded setup.
Please keep that in mind when posting.
Thank you.

[[XC] mysticmerlin]

I got a shock of my aux PSU the other night, do we have to stop talking about them too?

Stick you tongue on the end of a 9v battery and see if you can pick up NASA on your fillings :stick: Use a little common since for safety here plz, This isn't rocket surgery you know. :shakes:

[[XC] mysticmerlin]

I consider myself spanked. Can you quote the rule and post a link?
I got a shock of my aux PSU the other night, do we have to stop talking about them too?

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38511


does not exist such a rule as it would be stupid. If it existed youll have to ban the guys that fooled with ln2 and drank it :D

Wrong 6. This forum does not endorse the practise or coercion of any member that may bring bodily or mental harm to that member or anyone that they may come into contact with. Bodily or mental harm is defined as the use or construction of ant such device or substance that may adversely affect an otherwise normal state of life.

[[XC] riptide]

^^^ Took 12 hours and 10 mins to find Rule # 6 Mystic. :D

[[XC] mysticmerlin]

riptide;2559778']^^^ Took 12 hours and 10 mins to find Rule # 6 Mystic. :D

It was 24.1 :up: Accountant my arse :owned:

[initialised]

mysticmerlin;2557428']Stick you tongue on the end of a 9v battery and see if you can pick up NASA on your fillings :stick: Use a little common since for safety here plz, This isn't rocket surgery you know. :shakes:Here's the science: as a metal filling decays it can form a resonant cavity or antenna and when the correct AM signal hits the cavity some material in the filling vibrates. The tooth is connected to the jaw which is connected to the ear so you hear the radio signal.

I had an epiphany following an electric shock when I was wiring my kitchen, all of a sudden the wiring layout made sense.

I've been putting off wiring up everything properly until I'm ready to actually install (what will fit) back in the case. Still not happy with my loops, I'm thinking about hiring a decent pipe bender, taps & dies and setting it up with chromed copper or anodised aluminium piping instead of PVC.

The MCW6000 turned up today so I'll be playing with that tonight. Will try not to kill myself though.

[initialised]

mysticmerlin;2559718']http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38511



Wrong 6. This forum does not endorse the practise or coercion of any member that may bring bodily or mental harm to that member or anyone that they may come into contact with. Bodily or mental harm is defined as the use or construction of ant such device or substance that may adversely affect an otherwise normal state of life.Well we'd better just ban anyone who uses a PC! They have had adverse effects on an otherwise normal state of life for many people.

That statement reads like a disclaimer not a rule, it basically exemplifies XtremeSystems from any litigation that may be taken if an accident takes place as a result of something on here posted by a member.

Anyway, it's not like I'm saying do it it'll be fine, more that it can be done but take precautions against the potential heat hazard. Same as with water cooling, refrigeration, hell it's easy enough to cut your hands inside some PC cases (memories of EDO DRAM).