Water Radiators as Condensers???

[one_servant]

Hey guys, has anyone ever used a water radiator such as the one I have pictured and linked below as a condenser? I have place in my case to mount two of these suckers and the question I ask myself is one of pressure…

What do you think?

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/35-108-086-02.jpg

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108086

[Fhqwhgads6680]

unfortunately these are not rated at nearly high enough pressure... But you can get condensers that are pretty close to the same price. UTI has them for something like 45 bucks and those are more than enough for a single stage.

[boshuter]

A radiator like that wouldn't work even if it would hold the pressure. There are some radiators sold for water cooling that are designed just like condensers that have been used successfully.

[Big SturL]

Yep, right here (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=102538).

[one_servant]

But you can get condensers that are pretty close to the same price. UTI has them for something like 45 bucks and those are more than enough for a single stage.

Well, frankly I'm looking for something more than "enough" for my single stage unit. I want a larger condenser to increase the overall efficiency of the system so the larger the better. I'm considering the case pictured below so I can utilize the four 120mm fan ports for my CPU condenser.

http://www.virtual-hideout.net/reviews/TT_MozartTX/main.jpg

http://www.virtual-hideout.net/reviews/TT_MozartTX/12_SM.jpg

http://www.virtual-hideout.net/reviews/TT_MozartTX/81_SM.JPG


A radiator like that wouldn't work even if it would hold the pressure.

What is the "why" part of this response bro? I'm just curious. :)

[PhilippF]

The problem with these kind of radiators is that they dont consist of a long multiple bent tube but only two chambers with many pipes in parallel. This is good for watercooling as it reduces the resistance, but for phase-change you need to build up a temperature drop along the long line.

[killermiller]

unfortunately these are not rated at nearly high enough pressure... But you can get condensers that are pretty close to the same price. UTI has them for something like 45 bucks and those are more than enough for a single stage.

Linky?

[one_servant]

The problem with these kind of radiators is that they dont consist of a long multiple bent tube but only two chambers with many pipes in parallel. This is good for watercooling as it reduces the resistance, but for phase-change you need to build up a temperature drop along the long line.

That isn't necessary accurate as is evident with the condensers pictured below. Regarding the heat exchange it is all a matter of transfer over time and the vehicle for that transfer is immaterial as long as the condensation is complete before the evaporator is reached. Thus the lack of a serpentine design is unnecessary, and by some manufactures, considered obsolete.

http://i8.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/7d/ee/ec26_1.JPG

http://i6.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/a3/5a/7c5f_1_b.JPG

[Fhqwhgads6680]

http://www.under-the-ice.com/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=114

This is more than enough for our single stages...

One big misconception is relating phase to watercooling... As long as the condenser is sized above the max BTU/h of the load of the unit you wish to run, then any bigger isn't going to net you anything but requiring more refrigerant to chrage properly, if you want to add a little capacity just in case add a desup. and a reciever.

Again, a bigger condenser than what is required to handle the load that you are running will NOT reduce temps, you'll just have more liquid refrigerant collecting in the bottom of the condenser.

[one_servant]

Linky?
http://www.under-the-ice.com/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=114


Again, a bigger condenser than what is required to handle the load that you are running will NOT reduce temps, you'll just have more liquid refrigerant collecting in the bottom of the condenser.

Agreed, I'm not looking for "cooler" temps...just more energy efficiency. To site an example outside of our specialty consider the primary difference in SEER ratings (for household heat pumps for example purposes) is based on the size of the condenser outside (for air source units). Thus a 15 SEER unit is twice as energy efficient as a 7.5 SEER unit....and the condenser for that 15 SEER unit may be as much as 4 to 5 times as large as the 7.5 SEER unit with the variation falling on the design of the condenser and the cooling medium.

[killermiller]

I was thinking UTI was the thermometer but it is UEI. My bad.

[boshuter]

What is the "why" part of this response bro? I'm just curious. :)

Well my explanation would have been the same as PhillipF's....... but I read your reply to him. You may be right, I'd have to see it done before I believed it.... but thats just the way I am, lol.

[killermiller]

unfortunately these are not rated at nearly high enough pressure... But you can get condensers that are pretty close to the same price. UTI has them for something like 45 bucks and those are more than enough for a single stage.

Has anyone ever pressure tested these?

[[XC] 2long4u]

That isn't necessary accurate as is evident with the condensers pictured below. Regarding the heat exchange it is all a matter of transfer over time and the vehicle for that transfer is immaterial as long as the condensation is complete before the evaporator is reached. Thus the lack of a serpentine design is unnecessary, and by some manufactures, considered obsolete.

http://i8.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/7d/ee/ec26_1.JPG

http://i6.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/a3/5a/7c5f_1_b.JPG

That application is completely different. I would like to see a close up pic of the sides of the condensers pictured. Also you won't have air moving 60mph across the fins in your house. If you live in a hot enviroment such as in Sacramento ( it was 108* today) you will notice the air temp that comes out of the vents increases due to lack of air across the condenser, even if the fan is moving as much air as it can.
Many times there is chambers in the tubes. so it may LOOK like it goes strait across when it is accually a serpentine.

[one_servant]

The application is completely different but the science is exactly the same. If you look closely at those condensers you’ll notice bars going across that are the “pipe” transfer channels between the side chambers. And, if you take a hack saw a cut the condenser down the middle to bisect it you will find straight-through bar channels with no serpentine convolution. The same can be said of the side, pillar chambers. They are a simple hollow pipe that collects all the refrigerant from each bar channel. These condensers work moderately efficiently whether they are utilizing 75MPH airflow from a highway drive or the fans attached to them while a police officer is sitting in a car that is stationary for hours on end. The CFM from the fans that cool these condensers are not astoundingly superior to the high end 120mm fans per square inch (the noisy ones) that we use frequently.

However, I can see that no one has any home experience with using this sort of condenser. That being the case it has become clear to me that I must build a system using a one of the condensers pictured and then display the results. I’ll use several fans with various CFM ratings and positioning. I’ll be sure to document it excessively and post it as soon as I have some reasonable data even if these condensers turn out to be a horrible failure. It’ll be excellent science to add to the XS repertoire. This type of condenser is readily available on eBay for quite a reasonable rate.

[[XC] 2long4u]

Don't use the one pictured on top. The heater core style radiators are soft soldered. If you want a cheap condenser I can send you one for the cost of shipping . And the fact that I work for FedEx it would be pretty cheap. I made a condenser out of one already. It isn't the prettiest thing. It is 3/8 tube, all copper serpentine. I can send you the one that I made or I could send you the entire condenser so you can make one to fit the whole side of the case.

[star882]

Also you won't have air moving 60mph across the fins in your house.
That really depends on how powerful the fans are. 60MPH is probably crazy fast for an indoors application (or maybe not), but I think the air velocity can easily approach 60MPH for an A/C condensing unit. I don't have a wind speed meter so I can't tell for sure, but it is very windy above an operating condensing unit. (I'm pretty sure it's 40MPH or more.) Some high power server fans can exceed 100MPH air velocity so 60MPH wouldn't be too unreasonable for a testing unit. (Just don't stand too close to avoid a "Janet Jackson" accident.) Probably too noisy for everyday use, however.

[[XC] 2long4u]

Ok before I start that is a very nice case.
Now I thought something was fishy about what you were saying. I said that in the tube it had partitions in the tube to make it a serpentine path. Now heres the proof. It may use more than 1 row at a time but it doesn't just go strait across.
63803

63804

63805

[Xeon th MG Pony]

There is such a thing as too big where you loose efficiency, just like too small.

Water cooling rad will rupture if subjected to any thing near condencer pressure/temps, pressure alone may not rupture it but you have to remember here we have both tem AND pressure working against it, and pulsations!

It is a game of balance that we play, better the balance the less energy the pump must burn to move the medium inside and through out the system.

[killermiller]

Water cooling rad will rupture if subjected to any thing near condencer pressure/temps, pressure alone may not rupture it but you have to remember here we have both tem AND pressure working against it, and pulsations!

I spoke to a radiator shop shortly after reading the thread and he was certaint that radiators or heater cores couldn't handle more then 25-35 psi. Radiators are meant to be high flow, low pressure heat exchangers.