Can Someone Please?

[m411b]

Show me with Pics or point me in the right direction to start off on the right foot with TEC? I have searched and searched for help with no evail. I have done phase, and I know TEC is similar, but don't want to burn my new X2 6400+ before it boots!! I am going to use a 226w Petier (I know it ain't enough to get it to -10 or -5c). I just want at least 10c idle.

[m411b]

I'm a picture kinda guy :) .. A step by step guide of some kind would be great!!

[littleowl]

hi M411b how are you?

ok on to the tec side of life. I am not really sure what you want. do you want a list of what to buy or step by step how to put it together?

[m411b]

Hey littleowl. I'm good and you?
What I am looking for is some kind of easy guide to follow for a good TEC setup.
Pics are ALWAYS GOOD!!(less reading and more production)... I have yet to find a TEC guide that is step by step with pics! The Guide that keeps comming up is the Ultimate TEC guide that does nothing for someone who just wants to set a TEC cooling system up for a short moment. It's a great guide, don't get me wrong, but some kind of guide to show people STEP BY STEP is in order I think. You know what I mean, I know you do. I am talking about a guide like a vmod guide for a Mobo, WITH PICS to SHOW peeps how to do it as well as warn them of the dangers and correct ways with electrical equations and configurations. A guide is not a guide unless it SHOWS you how to do it and warn you of the dangers, and I know many people will not agree with me. If Phase is as easy as it was for me then many people will not have a hard time with TEC!! I am just a dumb azz GRUNT you know!! When I went to the Thread that is named The Ultimate Guide to TEC's (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38367) I was like "WTF This ain't no damn guide, it's an educational write up of how a TEC works!! Not that, that is bad or anything. But if you are going to name a thread "The Ultimate GUIDE To TEC's" then it should be a STEP BY STEP GUIDE and not a class on electronics.

EDIT: Every other cooling section on XS has a GUIDE!!

[littleowl]

M411b;2402540']Hey littleowl. I'm good and you?
What I am looking for is some kind of easy guide to follow for a good TEC setup.
Pics are ALWAYS GOOD!!(less reading and more production)... I have yet to find a TEC guide that is step by step with pics! The Guide that keeps comming up is the Ultimate TEC guide that does nothing for someone who just wants to set a TEC cooling system up for a short moment. It's a great guide, don't get me wrong, but some kind of guide to show people STEP BY STEP is in order I think. You know what I mean, I know you do. I am talking about a guide like a vmod guide for a Mobo, WITH PICS to SHOW peeps how to do it as well as warn them of the dangers and correct ways with electrical equations and configurations. A guide is not a guide unless it SHOWS you how to do it and warn you of the dangers, and I know many people will not agree with me. If Phase is as easy as it was for me then many people will not have a hard time with TEC!! I am just a dumb azz GRUNT you know!! When I went to the Thread that is named The Ultimate Guide to TEC's (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38367) I was like "WTF This ain't no damn guide, it's an educational write up of how a TEC works!! Not that, that is bad or anything. But if you are going to name a thread "The Ultimate GUIDE To TEC's" then it should be a STEP BY STEP GUIDE and not a class on electronics.

EDIT: Every other cooling section on XS has a GUIDE!!


I am great! I hope your still doing good over seas!! We really need you to come back and help us crunch some more! :D

I do agree with you on the tec guide and I had thought about trying to make one but I am not a very good typer/speller and my camera sucks for taking decent pics or I would go out and do a socket 478 right now for you to see step per step! Tec is very fun to play with but on the new chips it is just not really worth the trouble IMHO! Well that is if you OC!

The reason tec don't have a step by step like the other sections is because you can do all kinds of thing with them
you can put it on a cold plate and direct die. You can make a chiller type of thing.

[m411b]

Will This work?? It's a 226w TEC w/DD TDX, BIXII w/2 97cfm fans. I am just wondering if the entire TEC has to be covered or not?
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o184/m411b/DSCI0124-1.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o184/m411b/DSCI0126-2.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o184/m411b/DSCI0128.jpg

[littleowl]

no it will not work
you have to have to cover the entire tec or or it will be super heated and burn through the cold side and become an insulator within a min or 2.

Both block and cold plate have to be a full 50mm X 50mm base and it is best to clamp the waterblock and cold plate together then mount it as 1 unit to the mobo. the reason is the more you press the tec the better it works.

[m411b]

OK, so I put another copper plate between the hot side of the TEC and the TDX and my idle temps are now -33c core 1 and -18c core 0 on a 4800+ Brisbane. I will put pics up very shortly!

BTW, the plate i put between the hot side and the TDX is not the same size as the TEC it is like 49mm x 47mm but it works wonderfully.

[littleowl]

watch that you need to go the full 50mm x 50mm or it can cause lots of trouble!

[n00b 0f l337]

The main reason to not use the TDX though is, heat is dispersed quite evenly with a peltier, and the TDX is cooling just the dead center.

[m411b]

I ordered another cold plate from FrozenCPU.com, and I am going to use my D-tek Fuzion instead of the TDX so things should be alot better. I'm also going to put neoprene all the way up around the peltier in an attempt to create more negative temps. The only thing I am having a problem with is the DFI LP UT 590SLI mobo. For some reason it keeps shutting down and when I go to restart it, it hits me with a debug code of 88 and I can't find the codes anywhere to figure out what this code 88 means. If I let it sit for a while clearing the cmos it will start back up fine. Does anyone know at what temp the X2 4800+ Brisbane cold bugs? I've had this one to -39 with this TEC setup with no probs.

[littleowl]

you don't have that insulated? that will cause moisture to form on the chip and fry it.

[m411b]

luckily it didn't! I have insulation around the chip itself, just not above the chip.

[littleowl]

so you have it insulated up to the tec or just past the tec?

[m411b]

Just up to the TEC.

[littleowl]

you need to make sure the tec itself is covered or it can still condensate

[naPS]

M411b;2400655']Show me with Pics or point me in the right direction to start off on the right foot with TEC? I have searched and searched for help with no evail. I have done phase, and I know TEC is similar, but don't want to burn my new X2 6400+ before it boots!! I am going to use a 226w Petier (I know it ain't enough to get it to -10 or -5c). I just want at least 10c idle.

http://www.arcticspider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8

[littleowl]

http://www.arcticspider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8

That same walk through is in our stickie section! :D

[m411b]

http://www.arcticspider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8

That setup has to do with 775 socket with an already built TEC setup!
What I am talkin about is the homemade kind..

[initialised]

The short answer is: The Thermoelectric Handbook (http://www.melcor.com/pdf/Thermoelectric%20Handbook.pdf)

The long version can be purchased from Melcor (http://www.melcor.com)
The first step in building a Peltier cooling system is to specify the maximum heat (Qc) that the peltier has to shift. A good starting point for this is the Thermal Design Power (TDP (http://www.intel.com/design/intarch/core2duo/spec.htm)) of the IC to be cooled. 100% overclock with no change in Vcore will have double the TDP. However, if you also increase Vcore the power output will scale with the square of the voltage. Generally the advantage to actively cooled systems is that you can increase frequency with lower increases in voltage.

e.g. TDP=65W, OCf=100% OCv=20% resultant TDPr~150W

Now consider your power limitations.
If you plan to use your PC PSU:
Put it under full load: simultaneously run an HD video, a dvd/cd per drive, some intense 3D graphics, a number cruncher per core, transfer a large file across harddisks and across the network, have all the sound outputs turned to their maximum settings and measure how much power it uses (Ppc).
Add a 10-50% overhead to allow for extra power draw due to the higher clock speeds (P=f(V^2)/2)
Subtract this from the PSU's rated constant (not peak) wattage (Ppsu)
e.g. an 850-(400W*1.4)=410W
This is how much free power you have. But not all of this will be on the 12V rails. So now subtract the wattage from everything but the 12V rails rated power.

For now let's assume you end up with 350W this is the maximum power Peltier you can use.

Common values are Qc=320, 226, 172 since we have shown that we need 150W we wont consider anything lower and assuming a maximum of 350W available we wont consider anything higher.

Try to free up a 12V rail, use this for your Peltier, check it's ampage (Imax). Connect this to a rail with low power draw (e.g. opticals) if you need a little more amperage.

So we need a cooling system capable of shifting Qc+TDPr

Allowing for a 226W Peltier and TDPr=150W we need to shift 376W, to allow for component tolerances, thermal fluctuations, parsitic & interface losses 400W would be a better estimate. So we could get an uber air cooler and chuck loads of air through it via some ducting but this will innevitably increase Tamb inside the case, and Th will be higher than with water so Tcpu (Th-deltaT) will be higher.

So for practical purposes (with the exception of OCZ/Fujitsu's carbon nanotube approach which can do 400W) air is not a good idea. Specifying a 400W capable water loop can be tricky especially if multiple components are cooled. So for now we'll deal with a simple CPU only loop. A dual (240mm) brass/copper or a single (120mm) aluminium radiator should be sufficient to dissipate 400W from water with sufficient air (100-200cfm) and water flow (5l/m, 300l/h). Now we need a CPU block capable of 400W with a base that is at least as big as the TEC we are using (typically 40 or 50 mm square).

Interfaces:
In a conventional single component liquid cooling loop there is one interface, between the water block & the CPU. In a Peltier system there are typically three block -> Peltier -> cold plate -> CPU and they have different thermal properties. If possible solder the spacer/water block and cold plate to the Peltier as this gives a far superior thermal interface and will not be as severely affected by thermal cycling. Failing this use graphite pads (theoretical 1950 (W/m)K), or diamond (895), silver (430), copper (401) and aluminium (237) based thermal pastes at the interface. Mounting methodology is described well by this guide (http://customthermoelectric.com/TECmounting.html)

Once you have specified your TEC & cooling system it's time to insulate.
With a TEC it is important to both insulate the cold side from surrounding air and from the hot side this helps maintain as low a Tcpu as possible as well as minimising condensation. This guide (http://www.vr-zone.com/articles/Guide_to_Insulation_Against_Condensation/230-2.html) for insulating a motherboard is helpful if a little overkill but covers the basics.

[naPS]

M411b;2414208']That setup has to do with 775 socket with an already built TEC setup!
What I am talkin about is the homemade kind..

You can check with the guy that manufactures the V8 Stinger - he might send you a guide. I doubt any of the manufacturers are going to give you a step-by-step on how to build a duplicate of one of their blocks. That would be shooting themselves in the foot.

[littleowl]

This is how much free power you have. But not all of this will be on the 12V rails. So now subtract the wattage from everything but the 12V rails rated power.


ok one problem with this! your mobo will be drawing amps off of the 12v rails also and you don't know how much so you will not be getting what you were thinking you were getting.

Now consider your power limitations.
If you plan to use your PC PSU:

on thing to add on this is you really never want to us your pc psu because the wires are not made for the amount of amps the tec will pull through them.
also most psu's don't tell you what amount of amps are on the rails they only tell you the max that they can get.

[m411b]

OK, so I received my other cold plate from Frozencpu.com today and just got done putting everything back together. I raised the neoprene up past the cold side cold plate so no condensation. My only problem now is the damn mobo won't boot, it's the friggen code 88 thing??

Thanx for the link initialised. I'm sure I will use it. Am awaiting more as you said and looking forward.

BTW, I am using a different PSU for the TEC setup so I don't have to worry about all this stuff =
"If you plan to use your PC PSU:
Put it under full load: simultaneously run an HD video, a dvd/cd per drive, some intense 3D graphics, a number cruncher per core, transfer a large file across harddisks and across the network, have all the sound outputs turned to their maximum settings and measure how much power it uses (Ppc).
Add a 10-50% overhead to allow for extra power draw due to the higher clock speeds (P=f(V^2)/2)
Subtract this from the PSU's rated constant (not peak) wattage (Ppsu)
e.g. an 850-(400W*1.4)=410W
This is how much free power you have. But not all of this will be on the 12V rails. So now subtract the wattage from everything but the 12V rails rated power."

[initialised]

ok one problem with this! your mobo will be drawing amps off of the 12v rails also and you don't know how much so you will not be getting what you were thinking you were getting.

one thing to add on this is you really never want to us your pc psu because the wires are not made for the amount of amps the tec will pull through them.
also most psu's don't tell you what amount of amps are on the rails they only tell you the max that they can get.

Agreed, if possible a secondary PSU should be used. However, the 'Rails' in a PSU aren't as electrically isolated as the specifications suggest so drawing a little more wont be a problem so long as the wires are capable. If you think the wires aren't capable of carring enough current then double, tripple or quad up. If the amperage is to low pair up a couple of rails. For a simple comparason compare the specs of the wires on the Peltier with the specs on the PSU wires.

[littleowl]

Agreed, if possible a secondary PSU should be used. However, the 'Rails' in a PSU aren't as electrically isolated as the specifications suggest so drawing a little more wont be a problem so long as the wires are capable. If you think the wires aren't capable of carring enough current then double, tripple or quad up. If the amperage is to low pair up a couple of rails. For a simple comparason compare the specs of the wires on the Peltier with the specs on the PSU wires.

Agreed but it still creates a fire hazard and should not be recommended in any way.

[initialised]

Agreed but it still creates a fire hazard and should not be recommended in any way.

How I did it was to take the redundant 8-pin motherboard connector (2x12V1, 2x12V2, 4xGND) and knock up a connector which bridged all four 12V leads together and did the same to the ground cables.

Each of the four wires is capable of carrying more current than the wire's attached to my 320W ~30A Peltier. Another reason in favour of using the current PSU is the overload/shortcircuit/overvoltage protection will shutdown the whole PC as soon as a problem develops so if for some reason your Peltier fails and starts drawing heaps of current and heating up your PC is protected as it will shut down when the PSU trips instead of carrying on until your CPU/GPU is fried.

Swiftech currently endorse using a PSU (only one 1kW unit is certified though) for powering their Peltier water block. If you have the amps & watts to spare it can be done (with care) and possibly more protection.

[littleowl]

How I did it was to take the redundant 8-pin motherboard connector (2x12V1, 2x12V2, 4xGND) and knock up a connector which bridged all four 12V leads together and did the same to the ground cables.

Each of the four wires is capable of carrying more current than the wire's attached to my 320W ~30A Peltier. Another reason in favour of using the current PSU is the overload/shortcircuit/overvoltage protection will shutdown the whole PC as soon as a problem develops so if for some reason your Peltier fails and starts drawing heaps of current and heating up your PC is protected as it will shut down when the PSU trips instead of carrying on until your CPU/GPU is fried.

Swiftech currently endorse using a PSU (only one 1kW unit is certified though) for powering their Peltier water block. If you have the amps & watts to spare it can be done (with care) and possibly more protection.


Maybe you should look up that psu that swiftech recommends and look at all the specs of it! Oh and please make sure you look at the price tag! :D

As for the psu wiring your talking about. That is bad practice!! I didn't say it wouldn't work I said it is a fire hazard and is not aloud too publicized in the forum.

And on the same note let’s talk about your wiring. You’re taking a 2 rail psu, we will say 18amp on each rail. Doing the math that is 36 amps combined together.
Let’s look at a pc just basic.
CD rom drive maybe 1 amp because you’re not running it all the time.
Your hdd say 3 or 4 amps.
We will say you have a cheap video card and it draws all amps from the mobo same with sound card. So figure 15 to 20 amps.
So going by my guessed figures we are talking 19amp used leaving your tec to feed off 17 amps.
Now remember your tec is going to try and draw 30amp so you’re cutting it short causing a possible fire hazard! I hope I wrote this up well enough to make a little since. I know it is not exact and yes I know you can use a standard psu for tec but it is not a good idea!!!!!!

[Polizei]

Even if both rails are rated for 18A, that doesnt mean that both can supply 18A at the same time.

[littleowl]

Even if both rails are rated for 18A, that doesnt mean that both can supply 18A at the same time.

very very true!!!! I didn't think to write that! Thanks polizei for adding that part!

[initialised]

So Antec TruePower 850 Quattro is rated as having 4 12V rails capable of 18A each making a total of 864W so I guess you're right since it's a 850W unit.

Been looking at these puppies as an alternative: 2x350W 7V PSU (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160147683955&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=006) what do you think?

[littleowl]

I think bad idea because you will only get 7v and the tec will only get 226w cooling at 12v that it is rated for.

[initialised]

The idea is to use them in series to get 14v @ ~50A the vendor also has a 500W 13.8V 36A (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160157643787&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX_Stores&refitem=160147684321&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget) unit which is about the same size as one of the 350W units.

[littleowl]

The idea is to use them in series to get 14v @ ~50A the vendor also has a 500W 13.8V 36A (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160157643787&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX_Stores&refitem=160147684321&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget) unit which is about the same size as one of the 350W units.

even if you got the 2 units and had them at 14v you wouldn't be able to tweek the tec in to give you temps that your wanting. I would go for the 500w myself!

[initialised]

It's on it's way. It'll be running this 350W (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140156237109&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=004)Peltier.

[Duh]

if you are going the 62 mm way why didnt you chose the 437 instead of the 350??

[initialised]

Availability

[littleowl]

if you are going the 62 mm way why didnt you chose the 437 instead of the 350??

I have to agree with DUH on this one! you could have just got the artic web and and been better off! IMHO