Starting out in Phase

[yngndrw]

Well you may or may not have seen me around the Phase sections. I used to be on here quite a bit but took a break.

I already have some parts and tools: manifold, torch and general pipeing tools etc.

I don't yet have a vaccume pump or any recovery method, or any gasses.

So basically:
1) Can I have a checklist of all tools and parts I'll need, and any other suggested stuff.
2) What's you're suggestion on gasses and recovery - I don't have masses of money, but I intend to make a general purpose unit 3) Tips / Ideas to start off ?

Thanks,
-Andrew.

[tim-]

my main tips is, go for decent tools directly. good tools makes you enjoy what you're doing :)

vac pump, manifold, brazing equipment, swagle/flare tool, tubecutter and the regular stuff for a garage is what you need.. pretty cheap hobby hvac compare to cycle etc :D

[runmc]

TIP (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1535018&postcount=1)

[Xeon th MG Pony]

If you want to be a serious builder expect around 3grand in tools to professionaly make systems.

Tools, plenty, to maney to list realy and it all so depends on the type of systems you plan to make most of.

[yngndrw]

Well for now atleast, I was only thinking of doing single stage units, all of which would be the same. Generic units are easy to sell so that was my idea for raising some decent capital in order to be able to aford better first stage gasses and then to afford second stage gasses.

I presume (Prey) that the 3000 you quote for the tools cost was for building anything, and can be scaled down because I only want to build standard single stagers ?

I've read all the stickies on the forum, was just wondering if there was any new tips / ideas that havn't been added yet ?


Thanks everyone. :)

[n00b 0f l337]

Well for now atleast, I was only thinking of doing single stage units, all of which would be the same. Generic units are easy to sell so that was my idea for raising some decent capital in order to be able to aford better first stage gasses and then to afford second stage gasses.

I presume (Prey) that the 3000 you quote for the tools cost was for building anything, and can be scaled down because I only want to build standard single stagers ?

I've read all the stickies on the forum, was just wondering if there was any new tips / ideas that havn't been added yet ?


Thanks everyone.
You seem to be after a niche market, especially in the UK, you might want to talk to a financial planner or assistant and ask for their opinion. You might find you have a seriously hard problem in finding customers and that you will not make back that money any time soon.
Also have to worry about a cornered market as there are already other phasers in your midst ;)

[yngndrw]

You seem to be after a niche market, especially in the UK, you might want to talk to a financial planner or assistant and ask for their opinion. You might find you have a seriously hard problem in finding customers and that you will not make back that money any time soon.
Also have to worry about a cornered market as there are already other phasers in your midst ;)

You raise a good point. The way I see it though is that I can cover europe without too much in the way of shipping costs. There are already a few phasers over here but there have still been delays through overworking and personal problems, so surly that must mean there's still plenty more demand than supply.

Also I'm not after a career here, I'm an 18(19 very soon :D) year old student in Uni who lives at home, therefore all my living costs are paid by my parents,

[[XC] gomeler]

As with all things, good tools are crucial. Don't skimp at all. To start of I'd say your standard swag/flare sets, various pipe cutters (I use 3, 1 tiny one for capillary and 3/16, 1 for 3/16 to 1/2, and 1 for 1/2 and higher), a set of needle nose pliers, set of heavy-duty pliars (useful for grasping hot metal), a few C-clamps of various sizes, various screw drivers, a set of wrenches and sockets, a threading handle + multiple bits (just found this to be immensely useful), 2 sets of drill bits(I use the really nice set to start the holes and then I use the beat to hell set if I ever have to grind out holes and such), atleast a powerdrill but a drillpress works also, a vise(immensly useful for brazing), two nice sets of gloves (I have a thick set of welding gloves I use to man handle hot metal and then a thinner set of gloves I use when brazing), a couple of pairs of safety glasses (I tend to put them down around the house so it's nice to have 2-3 around the house), a set of nice torches as MAPP can be frustrating, a cylinder of purging gas (Dry N2 preferably although CO2 works), atleast two sets of gauges and multiple hoses, a few (I have 4) quick disconnects, a good vacuum pump, a container to store used vacuum pump oil and contaminated compressor oil, atleast 1 (I have 3) recovery cylinders (use 1 for each gas you recovery and clearly mark them, I've got R22, R404, R507 as my local refrig guys said all hell would break loose if I mixed gases *gasp*), atleast 1 other cylinder you can use to temporarily store charges and such (immensely useful on autocascdes), multiple lengths of wiring in varying gauges (buy in bulk) along with lots of random chunks and rolls of copper(also buy in bulk), and a drawer full of assorted copper elbows, tees, valves, and pocket lint. I also highly suggest investing in a good speaker system, I drag my Z-680's out to the garage whenever I'm working to help pass the time, just don't pressure test with the music going :up:. So yes, expect to spend lots of $$$$$ to make $$ or maybe $$$.

Looking over that list I'm positive I missed about a dozen things like vice grips (life savers) but you sort of just pick things up along the way. Expect your local hardware store to become your mecca and your friends become curious why you have lots of cylinders strapped together.

[gosmeyer]

Also have to worry about a cornered market as there are already other phasers in your midst ;)

A cornered market does not and will not exist in this realm.

[tim-]

well phase is much bigger then those small unit's we are using for our computers.. for example I repair and refill car AC, heat pumps and home AC etc.. honestly everything that require some brazing knowledge and refrigrants ;)
same knowledge and equipment we are using for our units but there is more customers if you think wide :)

vac pump is also possible to use when vacuuming carbon fibre/ glass fibre moulds :) remember just to replace oil ;)

regards
Tim

[Xeon th MG Pony]

here is a pic of the tools that I use the most

On top of that I have a full socket set, drill press, select Tap sizes for custom plumbing options, Safety bit set, flaring tool, Home made recovery machine. I'm likely forgeting some thing as well

Thats the bare minimum of making a system one can reliably gurantee to work with out worry! I've yet to order tools to make life easier!

[Xeon th MG Pony]

gomeler;2364983']Looking over that list I'm positive I missed about a dozen things like vice grips (life savers) but you sort of just pick things up along the way. Expect your local hardware store to become your mecca and your friends become curious why you have lots of cylinders strapped together.

Most my friends are scared to come into the house :)

and to add a swaging set, don't get an all in one type either they suck! Get a proper indevidual die set or buy a set of flaring tools that has a swage ability inbuilt.

[tim-]

I do like refco swagle/flare tool. It's combo, you change the tip depending on what you're going to do. if swagle 8mm pipe you put on 8mm swagle tip.

http://phasechange.se/photos/tools/IMG_1005.jpg
this is a picture comming from LD (hope it's okay, it's on my server) which shows the swagle/flare set I recommend. cost like 90euro in local hvac shop and defenatly worth it.. I've seen it for low as 70usd on ebay US.

to be honest to use the electronical leak searcher is a pain in our small unit's. ( saw someone in the thread show one) I would defenatly not buy it as first tool. better to get proper pressure test equipment and leak search with soap.. you will need this anyway to make leaksearch ;).

I don't find any pictures of my pressure test equipment on computer but I did have ad scheme of it.
http://www.phasechange.se/photos/misc/pressuretestunit.jpg

regards
Tim

[edit]
Xeon th MG Pony didn't like my explanation of how leak testing goes.. it was a bit oftopic, I agree and have deleted that part of message.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

You do not use the electrical onse to test a made system! You use them to find a leak in a old, and usualy larger system. Standerd nitro/soap test will be more then enough on a fresh made system.

and test pressur I use is 300psi the usual standerd.

As for swage tools I prefer the lower profile ones.

Not to mention you are taking a very simply thing and over complicating it, regs have a built in rupture disk. I do not know whom you are trying to impress but all that had nothing to do with the OT of the thread, it was about tools, not leak testing!

[yngndrw]

Thank you for all of your replies, I should be able to make a proper checklist now and see what I already have and what I need to get. I'll compile the list when I get back home.

Xeon: Can you give details about your home-made recovery machine please ? The bought ones are very expensive, and the last thread I saw about making them confused me lots. Am I right in thinking that all you're doing is using a compressor to pump the gas through a condenser and into the tank ?

tim-: Why does your leak tester use two relief valves ? Also why do you use two gasses to test with ? Or am I mis-understanding your diagram ?

Finally, does anyone know the max output presure of them disposable Nitrogen tanks used for MIG welding ? I was going to use one of them for purging and if I can use it for presure testing too that would be great. Failing that I could use a CO2 tank from paintballing (800psi) and regulate it down to 300psi. I can get CO2 cheap through the paintball site I used to work at.

Thanks again. :)

[tim-]

I did explain that in the long explanation I had about pressure testing xeon didn't like ;)

well the "leak searching gas" port uses to let a small amount of refrigrant into the system before raising pressure to recommended pressure (usually something between 15-25bar). this small amount makes it possible to use electronic leak tester witout filling whole unit with refrigrant that cost lot's more then nitrogen and is bad for nature. honestly you normally only use soap when leaksearchin, atleast unit's as ours as they are to small to locate exactly joint that's leaking. I did build mine this way as it was the way they where made at school where I took hvac classes.

about two relief valves, I think you can find that out your self if you think twice.. It's simpe as it looks. it's for your secure. If one doesn't open as it should the second do. This should never happend but you never know if the regulator goes banana or anything else happends. that's also why there is no shut off valve between bottle and relief valve.

I do believe that pressure testing is a important thing to invest in. Especially when you're new in this as you proberbly are and don't have the brazing experience. It's hard to decide if a joint is leakfree or not to just look at it, and even if it looks superb it can leak..


about nitrogen bottle, it's 200bar in them.. depending on regulator you can get different pressures. I have flow regulator and pressure regulator to my bottle. flow is 0-30l/min and pressure is 0-40bar.

the flow regulator isn't anything to pressuretest with but is good to use when you purge.
regards
tim

[yngndrw]

Ah okay then.

For the welding gas bottles, I ment these smaller ones:
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/images/library/range/large/0083.jpg

I worry that they only have flow regulators instead of presure regulators. It might just end up cheaper renting a bottle of N2 from BOC or somewhere like that.

Thanks.

[teyber]

for gas: try

www.refrigerants.net

Depending on the oil inside a compressor, r-22 is cheap and pretty safe. I think 120$ for a 30lb tank.

When is purging necesarry?

And if you already have a workshop, what else do you need for tools? according to some of shaminos guides, it didn't seem THAT complicated...(the parts that is)

[n00b 0f l337]

Theres build tools, and theres quality control tools.
Purging is always necesary, especially in the evaporator.

[[XC] gomeler]

I always purge, it's been said "clean room clean" should be your standard and I hold to that. Some people say "Just evap" or "Just evap and suction" but you really should purge everything.

[yngndrw]

Well I've compiled a list, can somebody check this list and suggest any changes please ?

Linky (http://yngndrw.hostilezone.net/uploads/Phase%20Tools.xls)

[[XC] gomeler]

Post list directly, I'm not a fan of downloading unknown office documents and opening them on my desktop ;)

[yngndrw]

But it's all coloured and organised. :( There's always virus checkers.

Anyway, I've uploaded it as a html document:
http://yngndrw.hostilezone.net/uploads/Phase%20Tools.htm

[tim-]

here is the list.. edited it to suit the forum :) I just feel I'm to kind tonight :confused:


Tool Amount Required Amount Suggested
Construction
Torch 1 1
Brazing rods Many Many
Welding gloves 1 2
Safety glasses / face mask 1 2
Purging gas (N2 or CO2) 1 1
- Needed for pressure testing too
Pipe cutter 1 1
Capillary tube cutter 1 1
Pipe bending springs 1 1
Swage / flaring tool 1 1
Screw driver set 1 1
Spanner set 1 2
Socket set 1 1
Thread tapping set 1 1
Hex bit set 1 1
Vice 1 2
Vice grips 1 2
Normal pliers 1 1
Needle nose pliers 1 1
C clamps 1 2
Drill 1 1
Drill bit set 1 1
Drill press 1 1
Electrical cable Many Many
Electrical tape 1 Colour Many Colours
Heatshrink 1 Size Many Sizes
Multimeter 1 2
electronicalSoldering equipment 1 1

Evacuation
Vacuum pump 1 1
Vacuum pump oil 1 1
Vacuum gauge 1 1
Valve core remover 1 2

Leak Test
Gauge / manifold set 1 2
Soap 1 1
Electronic leak tester 1 1

Tuning
Thermometer 1 2
K-Type probe 1 4
Recovery cylinders 1 1 Per Gas
Recovery machine 1 1

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Multimeter I would say with certainty is required to do safe insurable work as will a good clamp meter will greatly help life along. As will a good electrical soldering set and electrical Crimp set.

A Vacuum pump with out a good gauge is not much help, they are sort of a needed set, Valve core removal/super heat Tool is very strongly suggested.

Again A good therm is critical to proper system tuning. a 6" Immersion K-Type probe will be good for this with a super heat measuring tool.

[yngndrw]

Thanks for the formatting tim-. I'll keep the uploaded .htm updated with it too to keep the priorities there aswell.

I've made them changes Xeon, what exactly is a superheat tool ? It seems to be just a temprature gauge on the end of the valve core tool as far as I can see from Google images ?

Link to the .htm: http://yngndrw.hostilezone.net/uploads/Phase%20Tools.htm

List:

Tool Amount Required Amount Suggested
Construction
Torch 1 1
Brazing rods Many Many
Welding gloves 1 2
Safety glasses / face mask 1 2
Purging gas (N2 or CO2) 1 1
- Needed for pressure testing too
Pipe cutter 1 1
Capillary tube cutter 1 1
Pipe bending springs 1 1
Swage / flaring tool 1 1
Screw driver set 1 1
Spanner set 1 2
Socket set 1 1
Thread tapping set 1 1
Hex bit set 1 1
Vice 1 2
Vice grips 1 2
Normal pliers 1 1
Needle nose pliers 1 1
C clamps 1 2
Drill 1 1
Drill bit set 1 1
Drill press 1 1
Electrical cable Many Many
Electrical tape 1 Colour Many Colours
Heatshrink 1 Size Many Sizes
Multimeter 1 2
Clamp meter 1 1
Soldering equipment (Electrical)1 1
Electrical crimp set 1 1

Evacuation
Vacuum pump 1 1
Vacuum pump oil 1 1
Vacuum gauge 1 1
Valve core remover
/ superheat tool 1 2

Leak Test
Gauge / manifold set 1 2
Soap 1 1
Electronic leak tester 1 1

Tuning
Thermometer 1 2
K-Type wire probe 1 4
K-Type immersion probe 1 1
Recovery cylinders 1 1 Per Gas
Recovery machine 1 1

[Xeon th MG Pony]

well it is a valve core removal tool that has the thermometer in another head assembly. Using it to remove the valve core during vacuuming is a big help. And with a high quality one you can take your pressure reference simultaneously as the gas temp.

That new list looks much better, with that will enable you to make systems that you can gurentee to run, with practice will come the second important factor, first hand skill!

As for other things a good book on AC wiring, and Refrigeration fundimentals will be of good assistance, as will a good physics fundimental book.

A good highely flexible bench lighting system too will help.

[yngndrw]

Thank you very much for all of your help. :)

It seems I have a lot of saving up to do, so it might be a while before you see a build log of mine. Fortunatly I already have all of the electrical stuff, and some oh the phase tools, although there's plenty more I require.

Thanks again.

PS: Add the list in the stickies ? I think it would help quite a few people if it was easily accessible. ;)

[Shalamay]

I like the stickie idea, would help the frist builders.