What's wrong with some of the mods phase change builder ?

[noobzed]

First, I apologize for my poor english as I am a french boy..

I have spoken on msn with Kayl about the difficulties encountered by phase builders to finish units. In fact we can see many thread about LukeXE, Jin, Chilly1, Gray Mole.. and often they have a very good place in this section, or worst they are mods..

I am not here to "destroy" reputation of someone, just wanted to have your comments or feelings about what is happening in the phase change section.. Cause now we can read numbers, these numbers are in USD and seems to be enormous ( I saw 10.000 usd :x ), I just want to remind the builder that are comissioned they have a moral contract with the customer ( or am I wrong ? )

Please do not flame or troll me, feel free to post your advice or so, with the persmission of Kayl.

Best regards,
Seba.

[[XC] gomeler]

The biggest problem I can see is budgeting both time and money towards the build. I myself just had a short lesson on this issue by taking on 3 builds at one time. Three identical builds wouldn't be an issue but 3 different builds each require a lot of attention causing the shipping dates to slip back from my very aggressive schedule. Budgeting money can also be a large issue when builders run on slim margins, when a particular deal falls through it can ruin a builders capital, especially if they are living life right on the edge. I myself tend to set very aggressive schedules and run on very slim margins in hopes of generating a client base, more established builders run larger margins but tend to accept more builds than they have manhours to complete.

[noobzed]

Thanks for answer, hope this thread 'll be a good compilation of problem and solution cause solution are welcome too..

[tim-]

I can't other then agree with [XC] gomeler.

what's have happend is that some people have take way more work then they are able to handle at the same time.. I don't care who does it but it's irresponsible and arrogant especially against the customer.

what you are talking about is a few people that are messing around and don't take their responsibility agains the customer.. I hope this will sort people out and take all irresponsible builders down.. I don't like this dark cloud over all of us, this is bad reputation for all of us and it's just a few who deserv it.

regards
Tim

[runmc]

Every phase unit is different. Every day of your life is different, You never know what to expect. Foolishly in the past builders have taken money from more than one customer. After life throws a few curves at you, your caught up in a hugh mess which takes forever to get out of. Some of the builders from the past may never get there debts paid back.

When your doing repair, mods and customs, don't take more money than you need for parts, and don't take on more than one job at a time.

[gosmeyer]

The plane and simple answer is morels and ethics have gone out the window readily replaced by greed when it comes to supplying a customer with a product that has a down payment on it and in some cases paid in full. Sugar coat it how you like, but the fact of the matter is sometimes the truth hurts, but I can assure you customers would rather experience the painful truth as opposed to a feel good lie. Please keep in mind this only applies to a limited number of builders.
This is what happens when you make the move from a hobby to a business and you only operate in a hobby sense and fail to bring business sense to the table.
And please, don't tell me it's not a business because anytime you receive payment for product or services it's a business transaction not a hobby transaction. Not all builders will allow there alligator mouth to overload there tadpole ass

[Circaflex]

YIKES, didnt really realize this was going on. Im really in the market for a custom unit too, have spoken to a few people but it seems i might rethink this.

[n00b 0f l337]

Yep I have to enforce what everyone else has said. I think the main force is limiting, I personalyl won't take more then 3 buidls at a time, as I know I can do three builds at a time no problems, even when problems occur.

[[XC] gomeler]

Biggest problem is accepting money up front for everything, gives the builder no monetary incentive to finish the build on time. For me I'm broke as hell until the build is finished as the 50% up front barely covers the parts. It's nice though as when you finish up you have a pay day meaning even more tools :yepp: Rather rewarding to be honest but that's just me.

[Gautam]

I think Walt put it best...


They make promises they THINK they can KEEP but CAN NOT. All kind of ideas are Dreamed up and not tried until someone pays in advance so they can PRACTICE with your MONEY. From many all I see is wish-full thinking. Then their charging top dollar for something they never did.

...

Not until guys quite paying up front will this stop. The good builders will have units pre-made. Especially Single stage units.

On a completely custom unit & no more than 50% should be the max paid even if a cascade. And only if the builder has proved he can do the EXACT job you want from previous builds. Just because someone can build a single stage does not mean they can build a unit that holds low temps with a given load. 50% is enough for any custom,let the builder finance the rest,if he can't find someone in better financial shape. If the buyer doesn't come up with the money the unit can be sold and the builder won't loose out.

[jimmyz]

i'm an owner, not a builder. however i have alot of respect for the builders in this forum. i feel the only way this issue will go away is for the builders to only sell completed and tested units. custom units would need to be minimal.

and let's face it everybody wants 300 watts @ -40c. but at the end of the day they want a solid, reliable, hopefully quiet and of course beautiful unit. i know the cost of building out of your own pocket would be very difficult for most of the builders thats why hardly anyone does.
and of course the big auto c's and the custom cased ss units will always be a special order item, but maybe a limit of 40% paid up front and a written contract.

[FUGGER]

I agree with Walts quote.

People need to have the units finished and then sell, state how it preforms and be honest to its performance and quirks.

Selling something with guesstimate figures has also plagued a lot of sales as there are so many factors to effect performance of the sold unit. A bur in the cap line to charging with a fractionated blend.

I would much rather people learn how to do themselves.

Sad trend indeed but thanks for pointing it out, we will discuss in admin and address the moderator sales first.

[zabomb4163]

I think people should stick with vapochill units. While not always as good as the custom units, they carry a warranty, do not contain flammable or explosive gases, are ready to order, and look quite good.

[kayl]

EDit: fugger as i type ya posted ;)
beat me to it

There is no easy answer to these issues that keep popping up.
XS isn’t responsible for any builders including MODS.
All i can suggest is ppl buy from the For sale section, finished completed units with pictures of results, that or buy commercial units that don’t perform as well.
For those that do want custom units pay a 50% deposit at most.
Request a link to a project the person has done in the past that is similar to the project you want. Speak to the owner of that build and ask them what they think of the builder and if had any issues.
Dont be a test guinea pig, ie if the builder has never attempted this sort of build then they really dont know what the outcome of the build will be (ie results) until they have completed that build.
Builders if you don’t have the funds to cover a project then you should really re consider taking on big jobs or even building. Yes this is a hobby but you are using other ppls money and if put in their shoes what would you expect when handing over large amounts of $$.
Builders should always quote 2months for custom jobs at least, if you finish early then the owner gets a surprise and product arrives early and they are very happy.
I personally believe going over budgeted build time should results in a discount of some sort or free postage, something to keep the buyer happy.
In some extreme cases money back.
Buys do your research before buying.
Builders do your part and keeps up XS good name please.

[[XC] gomeler]

Guess the only problem with selling pre-built units is the capital involved. Some builders (myself especially) cannot afford to have 2-3 units on the line that aren't partially paid for. Plus the thought of building a unit and having it sit on the shelf unsold scares me. If you stick to a specific design and keep your customization low you should be able to maintain some sort of consistency, that's what I strive for.

[HoriWanderFuLL]

I think people should stick with vapochill units. While not always as good as the custom units, they carry a warranty, do not contain flammable or explosive gases, are ready to order, and look quite good.


I Agree with you to a certain point ..i have owned many vapochills and i still do own some units.

But that has not stopped me getting a custom 3/4 Hp built by a Trusted builder as a Vapochill Ls just cant compare to a Custom built unit these days.
Asetek have not moved forwared for Quad core Overclocking. Dont seem to be bothering about it either.

[n00b 0f l337]

Not to mention with prebuilts its not a custom unit persay.

[teyber]

This may sound crazy, But somebody should do an excel spreadsheet of all the builders at XS.

Then have a box next to the builders name, where each of the builders can give a brief into on their units, then to the right of that, have all the recent buyers feedback. It would be big, i know, and im not talkign paragrahs. SOmething like:
nol:i build SS, auto-c, and cascades:buyer 1: great unit, fast time, kept in contace.

Sort of like a ebay user, you know?

please don't flame me, this is jsut an idea. But this way, people who are wantign phase changes can get an solid idea on who they trust.


Just an idea

[boshuter]

I agree with Walt, most singles can be prebuilt, at least the basic setup and any options can be taken care of easily and quickly if the buyer wants them. NEVER pay all the cost until the build is done, if someone is working on that tight of a budget, there will be problems if something goes wrong.

I think the biggest problem is people who know nothing about phase coming here looking for someone to build them a unit, they don't do enough research to find out if a builder is really a builder or just someone that says they are a builder. If someone PM's you offering to do a build for you, look out. Most of the reputable builders don't have to go hunting for business through pm's.

You should do a lot of reading to see who is actually doing builds and posting FINISHED/WORKING units. There are a lot of build threads that never end up with a finished working unit and usually end with some excuse for not getting it done. If someone offers to build you a cascade/auto cascade, make sure you see SEVERAL completed/tested/working ones that they have built, not just pics of some parts or semi-finished units that somehow never actually got done. It all boils down to common sense.... learn to spot BS, and question everything, it doesn't matter who it is, how long they have been here, post count, etc., etc., do your research..... spend some time going through their past posts, see how many finished builds they have, how long they have been building, etc., etc..

There are definitely problems with the way it works now, but until the buyers wise up and start doing their homework I don't know what can be done.

[[XC] gomeler]

This may sound crazy, But somebody should do an excel spreadsheet of all the builders at XS.

Then have a box next to the builders name, where each of the builders can give a brief into on their units, then to the right of that, have all the recent buyers feedback. It would be big, i know, and im not talkign paragrahs. SOmething like:
nol:i build SS, auto-c, and cascades:buyer 1: great unit, fast time, kept in contace.

Sort of like a ebay user, you know?

please don't flame me, this is jsut an idea. But this way, people who are wantign phase changes can get an solid idea on who they trust.


Just an idea

I've idly suggested something like this for a while, a directory of sorts, but it won't fly around here with the forums being strictly anti-business. It's really a good idea so people can keep tabs but I think something like this would have to be stuck in the services section of XS and would require a mod of sorts to update and result it low view-counts unless it's actively advertised.

[before]

I agree with Walts quote.

People need to have the units finished and then sell, state how it preforms and be honest to its performance and quirks.

Selling something with guesstimate figures has also plagued a lot of sales as there are so many factors to effect performance of the sold unit. A bur in the cap line to charging with a fractionated blend.

I would much rather people learn how to do themselves.

Sad trend indeed but thanks for pointing it out, we will discuss in admin and address the moderator sales first.

Cannot write it better. :up:

[noobzed]

perhaps the idea of doing an excel spreadsheet is a good idea, with each builder classified by name, and name of unit in progress, with starting date, estimated finsh unit date, no mention of cost or money of course, just to see the entire progress of the phase change builder, and free access to all xs member

is it a stupid idea ? that is sort of "dictature" perhaps but can give a clear situation of the phase change section.

[[XC] gomeler]

I support the idea but it isn't my call to make, this is something the management would have to approve and most likely maintain to keep it legitimate.

[zabomb4163]

gomeler;2355079']Guess the only problem with selling pre-built units is the capital involved. Some builders (myself especially) cannot afford to have 2-3 units on the line that aren't partially paid for. Plus the thought of building a unit and having it sit on the shelf unsold scares me. If you stick to a specific design and keep your customization low you should be able to maintain some sort of consistency, that's what I strive for.

when you have made enough profit from building 2-3 at a time will you use the $ to build several units for ready built orders?

[n00b 0f l337]

But again, the markets not so huge that the unit might always sell, and then you have tied up capital. And what if the next buyers wants something different. Not everyone wants a nf11fx quad core build.

[[XC] gomeler]

What NoL said. We builders don't have the capital to run a car dealership style assembly line. If I did then I'd stock a budget dual-core build, budget quad-core build, and a full blown quad-core build but then we are talking a good $1000+ in tied up capital. Biggest issue also is most of my contracted work has been modifications, I can only stock the parts but it's hard to pre-assemble those builds, especially on the VapoLS where you cannot easily slide the system into the case due to height constraints.

[gosmeyer]

Being an honest and qualified builder does not or should not mean stocking units. It just means being honest and qualified. Nobody is successful in todays market holding inventory, That's why it went to just in time years ago. The answer is simple but i guess very hard for some to follow.

[SoddemFX]

Why would any able person sell these systems at the very low profit margins demanded by the buyers at xs and similar communities?

No able engineer would do it on such a small scale because after supporting the system for a year they could have made more money working at McDonalds, this leaves mainly the disreputable and unable builders.

And buyers trusting $1000's up front to untrained kids kids working with very limited resources and knowledge should know better.

Tom

[n00b 0f l337]

Why would any able person sell these systems at the very low profit margins demanded by the buyers at xs and similar communities?
To earn a small profit margin to continue either there own experimentation or simply to provide phase at a cheaper price to those who want it. Look at Runmc, why would he run a online store with small margins? He does it to help the community, and also to be able to grin at piles of shiney parts whenever he wants to build something ;)

[SoddemFX]

To earn a small profit margin to continue either there own experimentation

If you're building the systems the way you should be and supporting the systems the way you should be, whilst selling the systems for the price you are then there is no profit margin. Unless you do it outside whatever warranty you offer then your experimentation comes at your buyers risk.

or simply to provide phase at a cheaper price to those who want it.

On December 24th do you fly around the world on a magical sled dressed in red? Do you and your band of merry men don green capes and run amock in Sherwood forest? Generousity on this scale fades quickly, there is no end of people who will take advantage of you - and if you value your own time so little, why should any buyers respect your ability any more.

The problem is the lack of ability, responsibility and resources, sometimes financial greed and lack of foresight but i think more often than not it's ego.

I didn't mention people in particular for obvious reasons but Ron is one of the few honourable exceptions, thinking of people like him was why i edited the original post to include 'mainly'.

Tom

[n00b 0f l337]

I'm just offering more options Tom, don't really feel like getting mocked. I've done many low profit margin builds, sometimes its to liquidate parts, sometimes just becuase the persons a friend.

[[XC] gomeler]

I had a build where the buyer had a budget so small but was so eager to get into phase-change that I stepped down from my NF11FX standard to an Embraco FF12HBX, a used Mach 1 condenser, no controller, and a Chilly1 block I had that was missing one of the four mounting screws. Did I make much money? Nope, margin was easily below 15% on that build but it was fun and I enjoyed it. Now I wouldn't build such units on a daily basis as the margin was too low to warrant the time invested but just like a lot of problems this requires a case by case judgment. From time to time there is nothing wrong taking jobs from the lower regions of budgets just so long as you are honest up front and communicate thoroughly with the buyer on exactly what's going into the build. Superlow budget will naturally require digging into spare-parts bins and whatnot but everything else must use virgin copper and parts. Just thought I'd clarify before someone makes the assumption that one build I mention highlights all my builds. :shakes:

[gosmeyer]

From time to time there is nothing wrong taking jobs from the lower regions of budgets just so long as you are honest up front and communicate thoroughly with the buyer :

This seems to be a major hurdle for some.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

All I'll say, is some should read some books on running a business, I have run three of my own, my very first and some what successful was a salvage shop for electrical nicknack's and then fine tuning PCs and installing custom lighting, and then as a sub contracted tech, what all has taught is you should all ways have three levels of back up and a reserve of basic parts.

Every builder should have a Credit card used only for emergencies, they should have a small cash pool in the bank, and should have a stalk of raw basic parts. They should all so have a clear mission statement to live by or die by trying.

1 week of working for just 2 Hours you should be able to make and test a system. be for offering to make systems you should have built up all the tools you need to make the systems along with the testing equipment for said system.

Good solid common sense or experience what ever it is, thats what you need to use to not get in trouble.

(Some times I feel really old when giving advice, seems like I've gotten more then my fair share of experience, but this is why I share it so freely, to hope fully stop others from having to suffer what it takes to get the experience, life with out risk gives no reward, and I've taken thoughs risks, and have both been rewarded and punished, if you choose to listen, you hope fully can get the same reward of knowledge with out the unpleasant side effects that come with such experiences!)

[noobzed]

now , for my personal trouble with one mod phase change builder, if someone can help me, he is welcome..

look at this.. http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=gray-mole&ftab=AllFeedback

better to refund the right person (me in fact) before doing business on eBay..

[Xeon th MG Pony]

now , for my personal trouble with one mod phase change builder, if someone can help me, he is welcome..

look at this.. http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=gray-mole&ftab=AllFeedback

better to refund the right person (me in fact) before doing business on eBay..

Perhaps he is selling stuff on ebay to achieve that end no?

[noobzed]

Perhaps he is selling stuff on ebay to achieve that end no?


LOL, not sure.. he can tell me if it case.. no PM response for 20 days or more now..

[zabomb4163]

gomeler;2356235'] but then we are talking a good $1000+ in tied up capital.

2000$ worth of up front investment is not unreasonable given that a single sale can amount to that. I started a business recently myself and have a 10,000 bonded insurance policy for companies we work with (to ensure they are paid regardless of our financial condition) and a 100,000$ insurance policy for customers against any negligence on our part. We absolutely will not deal with businesses who do not have similar insurance policies. In most states insurance is required for operating a business. Obviously it would have been very useful in all of the cases recently.

on a sidenote: I sure as HELL would not require customers to front my capital cost. If you want a businesses, good. Raise some capital and have at it. But the whole selling things that dont exist in any sense of the word is ethically wrong and may even be illegal. I can not think of a single service that requires payment before it is performed.

[n00b 0f l337]

I can not think of a single service that requires payment before it is performed.
Prostitution comes to mind, but again, we can have the parts on hand, but not the actual assmebled unit. Its a custom market, and we cant read minds as well as peer into the future.
THe main problem IS NOT THAT THOUGH, it is builders not coming thru and not building what they're supposed to, or over blowing there units to sell more and then having problems acheiving.

[[XC] gomeler]

Not the example I would have chosen but it works ;) In regards to paying up front though, no buyer should EVER pay 100% up front but 50% to 60% isn't unreasonable to ask as that usually covers most of the parts and the remainder is a nice "payday" for the builder. Can't imagine doing it any other way, there's no way I'm fronting all the costs up front or asking the buyer to do the same.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Model that I've used is a non refundable 50% holding fee, at which point the custom modes will be made to a pre-existing base unit. Very fast and standardized.

[n00b 0f l337]

Yep I work on 50-65% depending on how custom it is, not much over that ever though.

[Fhqwhgads6680]

LOL, not sure.. he can tell me if it case.. no PM response for 20 days or more now..

Gray has been out due to hand surgery and he fell and brusied a kidney. Hey has been here a LONG time and is a VERY repected member of the community. If I was in the UK or near, he is one o the first guys I'd get a hold of for a cooler. Great guy and very experienced. He's just been away for a little while dealing with that thing we forget people have around here called 'life" lol...

[Praz]

Gary's absence of late is completely excusable. Medical issues and emergencies cannot be helped. But the reasoning that "people have a life too" that is used so often is not an excuse.

As several respected members have already stated if money is being taken it's a business not a hobby. And as any successful business owner will attest to most things in a person's personal life come second after the customer. If the owner cannot commit to this philosophy then it's time to exit that particular business.

[Fhqwhgads6680]

Gary's absence of late is completely excusable. Medical issues and emergencies cannot be helped. But the reasoning that "people have a life too" that is used so often is not an excuse.

As several respected members have already stated if money is being taken it's a business not a hobby. And as any successful business owner will attest to most things in a person's personal life come second after the customer. If the owner cannot commit to this philosophy then it's time to exit that particular business.

no I wasn't implying that was a valid excuse, I was just stating that because life can throw serious curveballs such as the issue's gray is dealing with now...

Now if you own a BUSINESS or are taking on contracts you should have backup plans for even EXTREMELY unexpected situation like medical, financial etc. or at the least have the ability to refund the money as soon as such a problem arises.

As far as I know gray is in a stint of medical issues atm and as such has not taken on any orders, and I applaude him for that. I have yet to see a gray mole thread from an unsatisfied customer.

sorry if I wasn't clear, there is NO excuse for bad business practice, I was just stating members take a leave of absense from the forum for a while due to "life" sometimes. And such members are not running a full fledged business or they should have backup plans ready to set in motion.

Hope that makes sense

[Praz]

Fhqwhgads6680

My post wasn't directed at you. The life bit is thrown around constantly as an excuse. No harm intended.

[gosmeyer]

Fhqwhgads6680
The life bit is thrown around constantly as an excuse.

:up:

[Fhqwhgads6680]

Fhqwhgads6680

My post wasn't directed at you. The life bit is thrown around constantly as an excuse. No harm intended.

I can 100% agree with that. IMHO as soon as you agree to a contract your life is on hold until the deal is completed, or atleast a builder should treat it that way.

Edit: I must say tho, I haven't built anything for anyone other than myself yet, so I cannot speak from experience and I don't want to discourage builders with this thread or play monday night quarterback either. There have been some issues lately and it is a problem, however I still respect the builders here for what they do for the community.

[noobzed]

Gray has been out due to hand surgery and he fell and brusied a kidney. Hey has been here a LONG time and is a VERY repected member of the community. If I was in the UK or near, he is one o the first guys I'd get a hold of for a cooler. Great guy and very experienced. He's just been away for a little while dealing with that thing we forget people have around here called 'life" lol...

well Gray has a wife, she can help him , no ?

If gray is so injured, why he sells thing on ebay ? ( recently sell I mean )

can you explain me hu ?

now it is time have some news I think..

[Fhqwhgads6680]

well Gray has a wife, she can help him , no ?

If gray is so injured, why he sells thing on ebay ? ( recently sell I mean )

can you explain me hu ?

now it is time have some news I think..

I am not sure what you are trying to say here? He has sold some stuff on ebay, that means he dropped some stuff off at the post office.... thats a lot less involved than building systems, and it could even be another family memeber using the account....

I am confused.. did you buy something from him? are you in a contract with him and he is not responding? or are you just upset that he isn't answering his pms, yet he sold something on ebay??

if you aren't in a contractual agreement then I really don't understand your complaining here... there have been problems with builders but from what I understand you are upset that he isn't responding to a pm.... if he isn't availible to do what you want... find another builder...

sorry if I am misunderstanding... but of all the things for you to point out... this seems a little silly...

Edit: I just read your post again, and it sounds like you are waiting for a refund from him? sorry I didn't quite understand... how long has it been since you contracted him? And can you explain a little further the problem?

[Praz]

noobzed
Go back and read the title of this thread and your first post.



just wanted to have your comments or feelings about what is happening in the phase change section
You started this thread with the appearance of a discussion of the current state of affairs regarding builders here at XS in general.

From the direction of your last several posts it's obvious it was just a ruse to get everybody's attention while you singled out Gray for whatever reason.

I can't speak for the other members but I didn't start reading this thread to listen to you whine about a personal issue you may have with a particular builder. I was interested in this thread as it relates to phase builder issues in general. Exactly what you stated in your first post.

LOL. Your thread-capping your own thread. If discussing your own personal issues is what your intent is maybe you should start a new thread with an appropriate title.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

noobzed

LOL. Your thread-capping your own thread. If discussing your own personal issues is what your intent is maybe you should start a new thread with an appropriate title.

I second the motion.

[noobzed]

yes , excuse me for my off subject..

[noobzed]

I am not sure what you are trying to say here? He has sold some stuff on ebay, that means he dropped some stuff off at the post office.... thats a lot less involved than building systems, and it could even be another family memeber using the account....

I am confused.. did you buy something from him? are you in a contract with him and he is not responding? or are you just upset that he isn't answering his pms, yet he sold something on ebay??

if you aren't in a contractual agreement then I really don't understand your complaining here... there have been problems with builders but from what I understand you are upset that he isn't responding to a pm.... if he isn't availible to do what you want... find another builder...

sorry if I am misunderstanding... but of all the things for you to point out... this seems a little silly...

Edit: I just read your post again, and it sounds like you are waiting for a refund from him? sorry I didn't quite understand... how long has it been since you contracted him? And can you explain a little further the problem?


I'll explain you in PM soon, cause I am at work now..

[Shalamay]

I agree with Praz and Xeon.

[HoriWanderFuLL]

I think your in safe hands with G Mole...he has been around for years...Just going through a tuff time with Health...His wife my be selling stuff on ebay so they can afford to Eat!!!!

Doesnt mean he is well enuff to do work?

I think you should be using other options to contact Gray about all this crap..
this is the 2nd lot i have read today complaints about Builders and its not going to help us solve any troubles is it ?

you making yourselfs look like fools and everryone is just getting upset with each other..over a Phase cooler ???

I have paid my Builder in Full and i can sleep at night knowing when its up to his standerds he will send it along..i think people should back off and use Ph contact to there builders and sought issues out there...

we are all in the same pool here we love Coolers not to many of us in the world do this stuff...and now in last few months people are acting like Wild cats...

all this crap was going on with Phase controllers and makers not long ago as well...and only starts by a few people making a stupid comment...More people making coolers and controllers the better of we all are..

I would H8 to think of Xs closing this section down because of all the troubles here latly ..as i enjoy coming here reading and learning ..also trying to help out with a few noobie vapochill questions..

Cheers Hori

[SoddemFX]

Whilst i personally think Gray is a great guy, i also think that noobzed is right to bring this up if he feels that he has been wronged. noobzed seems to have made all reasonable attempts to resolve his problem before creating this thread which was intended to discuss things other than his individual problem :)

Tom

[noobzed]

Whilst i personally think Gray is a great guy, i also think that noobzed is right to bring this up if he feels that he has been wronged. noobzed seems to have made all reasonable attempts to resolve his problem before creating this thread which was intended to discuss things other than his individual problem :)

Tom

Sure and looking to Gray health problem I do not want to blame him, but I agree with Soddem FX..

[gosmeyer]

I would H8 to think of Xs closing this section down because of all the troubles here latly ..as i enjoy coming here reading and learning ..also trying to help out with a few noobie vapochill questions..
Cheers Hori

:rofl: :ROTF: :rofl: :ROTF:

[HoriWanderFuLL]

are you on Drugs man ???

[n00b 0f l337]

Na just he knows XS would close down completely before it locked down the vapor phase sections. The vapor phase seections made XS what it is today ;)

[noobzed]

are you on Drugs man ???


:ROTF:

[HoriWanderFuLL]

:rofl: :ROTF: :rofl: :ROTF:

>---:lsfight:--------->

[gosmeyer]

Relax, It's a transition period. pendulum is always swinging.

[Shalamay]

It's fine if u have an issue with someone, but you started this thread about being neutral and getting solutions. All the while you had an ulterior motive.

[runmc]

Sure and looking to Gray health problem I do not want to blame him, but I agree with Soddem FX..

Maybe you should keep trying to contact Gray and work something out with him. I know he has had plenty of reasons to be delayed. Perhaps the two of you can arrange a new build schedule or a plan to get your money back to you.
Was'nt he suppose to build a cooler for you??? You have every reason to be concerned about your cash and or cooler.

[noobzed]

I 'll explain the full story later, cause I am at work and I am a nurse boy, and each minute people can decompensate so must be aware at work, see you tonight I hope..

[yngndrw]

When I start building units for sale, I'll build a generic unit first before looking for a buyer for it. That way it's just like a generic shop transaction - Nice and simple. I know that custom unit's cannot be sold using this method but I don't see why generic unit's cannot.

Gray is a great guy and is always willing to help people out and give good advice. I havn't spoken to him in a while but I seriously doubt he'd ever have any bad intentions.

[runmc]

Gray is a great guy and is always willing to help people out and give good advice. I havn't spoken to him in a while but I seriously doubt he'd ever have any bad intentions.

Yes I agree. :yepp:

[[XC] gomeler]

When I start building units for sale, I'll build a generic unit first before looking for a buyer for it. That way it's just like a generic shop transaction - Nice and simple. I know that custom unit's cannot be sold using this method but I don't see why generic unit's cannot.


Complete "custom" units with cases can be done this way rather easily. Unfortunately the majority of my current business is Vapo LS and Mach II modifications and sadly with the VapoLS it literally isn't tall enough so that I could slide a complete NF11FX build into the chassis. Due to the height restrictions I actually have to build the system within the chassis. The Mach II on the otherhand has just enough clearance that you can slide a compressor into the chassis with no vertical issues but you quickly run out of real estate on that chassis.

[Ssilencer]

noobzed, the unit is in your avatar for about 2 or 3 month?
So we both know the unit was made and is working.
We even saw the case at that time too. so the unit exists but got him in the middle of a health problem.
I recommended Gray mole to you, I consider him as my friend and a honorable person, so, let me try to contact Gray again.

[n00b 0f l337]

Well so whats the solutions guys?
I know alot of guys offer building services, even I do, but we don't want to start a standard production unit in case our next customer wants something different. But we also want to make sure, or our customers do, that the materials exist or will be in the builders hands asap. How about want to builds? Possibly more posting in the services sections, but no one checks there, how about a service section as a sub section to the vapor phase? Though thats a bit like advertising...

[noobzed]

noobzed, the unit is in your avatar for about 2 or 3 month?
So we both know the unit was made and is working.
We even saw the case at that time too. so the unit exists but got him in the middle of a health problem.
I recommended Gray mole to you, I consider him as my friend and a honorable person, so, let me try to contact Gray again.

I said he refund me in several PM cause he cannot finish the unit, 3 month is long now, and I do not remember the begining indeed,longer than 3 month sure, the biggest error I did, was to pay totality of cost to you and gray...

You 'll contact him after month and month ? but I said to you on msn, there is a trouble, you had not respond so many times.. but I am not blaming you, hope you 'll contact him, but as you can see, gray is no appearing him for several weeks. so good luck.. I have received PM of other person that have trouble with him too, you know and everybody know, Gray have health troubles, but his wife or friend of him can help him to use PC to do a paypal ( for my case ) .. not really a problem, when you want you can.

[bazx]

i normally stay out of threads like this but this time i feel i want to comment


first off i would like to state that i do not and have not

built phase units for anyone

i only build for myself so have no motivations here

the commercial phase builders here have taught me most of what i have learnt over the years and for that i am grateful

also the commercial builders here supplied allot of the parts i need to build my units

so i have a need for them to exist here now and in the future

but as we all have seen there are also problems associated with this


i believe the phase section would benefit from having a sub forum with in this forum
where all commercial phase builders work could be displayed leaving the main phase forum
clear for the non commercial builder and the enthusiast

this would make it easy to find any info on current commercial builders and also parts available
to us the consumer

I would also suggest a register of commercial builders here with there

Name

Address/

Telephone

Email

Fax

heatware

All public and verified

(I have yet to deal with any company that does not advertise and display this info)

Lastly I don’t know how many times this has been said DON’T PAY FOR THE UNIT until it is ready to ship at most a 20% deposit
And Agree a time line

By this I mean if the unit is not done as agreed on time the 20% deposit is to be returned


baz

[noobzed]

i normally stay out of threads like this but this time i

I would also suggest a register of commercial builders here with there

Name

Address/

Telephone

Email

Fax

heatware

All public and verified





+ 10.000

[gosmeyer]

i normally stay out of threads like this but this time i feel i want to comment
I would also suggest a register of commercial builders here with there Name
Address/Telephone
Email
Fax
heatware
All public and verified
(I have yet to deal with any company that does not advertise and display this info)


I could not agree more and it would be very interesting to see who had the balls to step up to the plate for this one. Remember, the answer by most will be it's a hobby not a business. Still can't figure that one out:shrug:

[Praz]

Remember, the answer by most will be it's a hobby not a business. Still can't figure that one out:shrug:
That makes two of us. Something can be a hobby but if there is a financial gain from it then it is also a business.

[noobzed]

it is definitely a business for some

[[XC] gomeler]

I would also suggest a register of commercial builders here with there

Name

Address/

Telephone

Email

Fax

heatware

All public and verified

(I have yet to deal with any company that does not advertise and display this info)


I wholeheartedly agree with this concept as this puts the builders out there, makes them more than just a username on a forum.

[DetroitAC]

I would also suggest a register of commercial builders here with there

Name

Address/

Telephone

Email

Fax

heatware

All public and verified

(I have yet to deal with any company that does not advertise and display this info)


That's an excellent idea, I'd be up for that except the phone number. Most companies list their business line, which they will not hear at 2:00 in the morning :yepp:

[IFMU]

Ssilencer.... While I am not fully aware as to the full goings about, I have read through this thread and have at least a minimal idea.
Regardless, your flaming and bypassing word filter is unacceptable and will not be allowed.
You will be receiving infractions for that.
You've been here long enough and you know better that to act like that on the forums.



As for the rest, sorry guys, not alot XS can do.
I am sure that runmc and a few others are looking into this more and trying to see what they can do.

After reading this thread I am going to be making some suggestions on all of this builder crap going on.
Too many people are getting hurt and too many people are taking on too much work for themselves.
Something is going to be done.... Not sure what yet, but something.

IFMU

[raju]

I think it may well be time for a shake up, I am glad Charles is looking into this thread.

While XS is not accountable for personal loss thru business conducted via the site, there is a moral obligation as decent human beings to try and protect users where possible.

The guidelines we see as passing I told you so posts in most delayed unit threads often serve as quick reminders of what not to do when looking for a builder.

I still think though that conducting business via the site should have some kind of information wiki, where current work in progress is listed as well as expected shipping times so that potential customers can make a choice for a potential builder, again without XS liability other than a moral service to members...

regards
Raja

[Ssilencer]

IFMU
Sorry for flame, but I don't have anything to do with his problem nor any responsibility.
This guy created the thread with an ulterior motive: flame Gray mole, and now it looks like to flame me too.



I said he refund me in several PM cause he cannot finish the unit, 3 month is long now, and I do not remember the begining indeed,longer than 3 month sure, the biggest error I did, was to pay totality of cost to you and gray...



Ok, lets go again, you paid me for a pair of custom gpu evaps to be made in 10 days, they was ready in less than that, shipped and brazed in your unit, my part was done in time, don't blame me for your unit as I don't have anything to do with it.

[IFMU]

IFMU
Sorry for flame, but I don't have anything to do with his problem nor any responsibility.
I understand how things can be frustrating at times, and it does look like this is one of those times. Which is the main reason as to what I said in the infraction PM.
This guy created the thread with an ulterior motive: flame Gray mole, and now it looks like to flame me too.
I am inches away from closing this thread. As you, and plenty of others here have pointed out, he started the thread claiming one thing, and then using it for another.
Thread crapping his own. :rolleyes:
Ok, lets go again, you paid me for a pair of custom gpu evaps to be made in 10 days, they was ready in less than that, shipped and brazed in your unit, my part was done in time, don't blame me for your unit as I don't have anything to do with it.
If your deal is done with him, then leave it be IMO.
If you are worried he is trying to bash your name etc, prove that you held up your side of your deal, then leave him to show he is ignorant and what he is doing.

[zabomb4163]

I am inches away from closing this thread. As you, and plenty of others here have pointed out, he started the thread claiming one thing, and then using it for another.
Thread crapping his own. :rolleyes:


this thread still has its purposes. how to protect the buyers of hardware on these forums. we are talking about well over 10,000$+ dollars of deals gone bad. bad deal after bad deal after bad deal. At a minimum of 5 builders have left customers holding the bag. something has to be done.

note: i did not mention any specific names. the widespread problem indicates that it is a broader issue and not an isolated case.

[gosmeyer]

This is by far the most disturbing as well as humorous thread that I have encountered on this forum. You know, there are only two types of behaver - acceptable and unacceptable. And any behaver that continues is deemed acceptable. It really is that simple.
raju hit the nail on the head with a moral obligation as decent human beings in the same sentence.

[FUGGER]

Thanks Bazx, good post.

We do need these people to pull through.

[Fhqwhgads6680]

I'm surprised gray hasn't posted yet? has anyone gotten a hold of him? I am sure he could clear alot of this up.

[noobzed]

Well, my very little story is simple and started in January..

One day, I made a dream of having a dual evapos on my 8800 Sli, indeed I had a Vapochill XE II first, I moded this one to fit properly with a cold unit ( the double evapos unit ) under the case, so I choped a square at the rear of the case.

You can see SSilencer and Aitor work here : http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=142650

I gone to Xs phase section to found a builder than can do it for me, I saw so many impressive build, not sure the one to choose, I found Ssilencer and unbeleivable skills, plus Aitor. Both made a special designed enclosures and evapos and mounting mechanism, I payed him by paypal ( cost 527$ ). All of these parts have been shipped to Gray..

Ssilencer recommend me Gray Mole, when I have seen his build, I say in my mind, woooh what a build, every part of the unit is beautiful, I talk many many times on msn with Gray ( and Ssilencer too ), I wanted a high level of customizing ( cost is as high as customizing is ), but Gray liked the project. I payed all the project in two time, but BEFORE the unit was started.. via paypal ( 650€ and still left 100€ ). I have to add that one other ppl on msn have troubles with Gray to get his payment for material, before his health problem, so not just me indeed, he can add his problem here if ya want, I can ask him..

You can see Gray Mole Work in my avatar and here : http://soj.mesdiscussions.net/soj/Watercooling/changement-de-phases/dual-evapos-8800gtx-sujet_2599_1.htm

Now, what happens ? Project has started several months ago ( 4? ), Gray have heallth problem, do not come to Xs, Ssilencer cannot help me, all payment was done by Paypal ( an I have lost the credit card so this paypal account is now closed .. ), unit is not finish ( and it'll not be finished ), I have 527$ and 650€ outside ( in my ass ). Gray is untouchable, before was sometimes by PM, he said he 'll refund me each time but just only words... When I talk about this story I am very sad, sad for Gray that have been injured, sad for me too..

And yes, I am off subject with my trouble but yes I want to speak but.. yes I want reparation, yes I want Xs phase section to know, yes I want all of your help, yes I want your suggestion.

Best regards,
Seba.

[ak_47_boy]

I have no problem with anyone selling units, modding, etc.

It can't be worse than buying off eBay. Here you get to deal with non retarded people.

[PhilippF]

Very stupid question from me: Did GM perhaps ty to refund you on the closed PayPal-Account? Could it be so simple?

[noobzed]

Very stupid question from me: Did GM perhaps ty to refund you on the closed PayPal-Account? Could it be so simple?

I do not understand ( my english is limited sorry )

[PhilippF]

Did Gray Mole try to send money to the closed PayPal-Account?

[noobzed]

Did Gray Mole try to send money to the closed PayPal-Account?

yes 50€.

[Moc]

Hm, I don't know what has to be done on your Unit (made by Gray) ? It looks as if it is ready.

[noobzed]

Hm, I don't know what has to be done on your Unit (made by Gray) ? It looks as if it is ready.

it is not ready.. far from ready and project is canceled by both me and gray...

[quintus]

I am inches away from closing this thread. As you, and plenty of others here have pointed out, he started the thread claiming one thing, and then using it for another.
Thread crapping his own. :rolleyes:


just do it:up:

i'm seek of crap i wanna see units and minus temp!!!:up:

[noobzed]

IFMU
Sorry for flame, but I don't have anything to do with his problem nor any responsibility.
This guy created the thread with an ulterior motive: flame Gray mole, and now it looks like to flame me too.

Ok, lets go again, you paid me for a pair of custom gpu evaps to be made in 10 days, they was ready in less than that, shipped and brazed in your unit, my part was done in time, don't blame me for your unit as I don't have anything to do with it.

All I can say about you, is your great skill, I do not flame you nor Gray, I just wanting a good issue for everyone, especially for me. I notice you seems angry, why ?

EDIT: work was not done in 10 days, you wrong, cause mounting mechanism was did later, right ?
EDIT: If I tell your name, is for tell the whole story, as some asked me..

just do it:up:

i'm seek of crap i wanna see units and minus temp!!!:up:

everyone can speak here, it is not a dictature I hope... dictature was in year 39 to 45 with a dark hair man..

[Moc]

dictature was in year 39 to 45 with a dark hair man..

:rofl: it started 1933.... war was from 1939 to 1945...
*sry for history lesson* :ROTF:

Did you try to phone him?

[noobzed]

:rofl: it started 1933.... war was from 1939 to 1945...
*sry for history lesson* :ROTF:

Did you try to phone him?

:D thanks, it was for the idea in fact, but thank you for precision ^^

[IFMU]

just do it:up:
As long as the thread stays decent it will remain open. If I feel it goes wrong, it will be locked.
everyone can speak here, it is not a dictature I hope... dictature was in year 39 to 45 with a dark hair man..
Ah yea, no.
Xtreme Systems is not a democracy. It is a dictatorship. It is owned by one man. Fugger. We, XS Staff, do what is needed for this forum to continue with as little as possible problems.
I cannot say that enough, there is no such thing as free speech.
We will allow as much as possible, as long as it does not cause harm to others or use the site or its members for things other than what this site is here for.
That is the way it is.

IFMU

[[XC] gomeler]

All hail the mighty Fugger. Oh wait.. this isn't the shrine I erected in the corner of my room :doh:

[Levish]

My ordeal definitely left me so sour that I'd never get anything other than a pre-built and GTG unit or a commercial (vapo or whatever) again. Literally my side work was contacting the builder for updates on a bi-weekly basis (and sometimes more often at the request of the builder) for the better part of a year ...

If I showed just the frequency of correspondance regarding emails / pm and phone calls over the course of getting my setup completed.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

My ordeal definitely left me so sour that I'd never get anything other than a pre-built and GTG unit or a commercial (vapo or whatever) again. Literally my side work was contacting the builder for updates on a bi-weekly basis (and sometimes more often at the request of the builder) for the better part of a year ...

If I showed just the frequency of correspondance regarding emails / pm and phone calls over the course of getting my setup completed.

Thats un-acceptable practice too, 1week at most for a basic model, 1.5 weeks for moderate custom, Due to shipping times I'd say 1 month + 2 Weeks for a total custom rig from ground up. Any one seriously into this though should have most demanded custom parts in stock.

[n00b 0f l337]

1 week?
If everythings in stock maybe, thats assuming you have a few hours to build it on hand, then 24 hours of pressure testing (not to mention 24 hours of pressure testing line set), then triple evacuation and tuning. That can exceed a week if you have some days where you cant hop into the shop.
Then for custom units it can be two weeks for parts alone, United Refrigeration for instance takes forever to order and ship parts.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

good vacuum pump doing it two more times is a waste, a good pressure test can be don for three hours at 300PSI and be reliable.

In industry, you don't mess around with building a bit here and screwing around there, you have the whole thing assembled and ready to go build it, weld it test it don! You test various cap tube sizes till you have one that works the best, write down the length and gas used @ what amount, no tuning you simply look at your reference. Referance tables become your life blood when working on designs that relie on a base model, all you need to do after building one is check the CPU type and there you have cap tube length+Charge amount @ what refrigerant, add in the wattage and it becomes even faster as you can now group them into clusters of wattages!

Any thing less is poor practise, a small system should never need a triple evac less your vac pump is an ancient pos or a compressor, and if it is a compressor you shouldn't be selling units!

I try hard to think of any excuse why it takes so long, the ONLY way I can see it, is shipping delays, and that's it, no other acceptable reason why it should take so long, other then poor personal management or lack of skill on fabrication.

[PhilippF]

I think, Xeon tMGP is completely right: If you choose a professional builder with experience, the right tools, a good stock of parts and perhaps a few pre-built units in stock, everything should be fine, you probably get the unit shipped in time and it runs smoothly and without problems.
The only thing I see as a problem is that people dont want to pay for this service. A unit created this way must be much more expensive than one built by a hobbyist in a garage with a propane torch on plywood. You have to pay for the part stocking, the pre-built of the unit, the good tools, and last but not least the experience of the builder.

If you order a unit from somebody who is clever and made phase-change units his hobby, but has no business experience at all, things like the things recently can happen. I think the lack of business experience leads to wrong estimates how many units can be built in time, but what everyone here seems to forget is that the price they paid for the unit ist for sure MUCH cheaper than what they would have paid if they asked a HVAC-Tech to build one.

So to the people who waited a long time for their units (but finally got one): Please also consider what $/hour your builder charged you. I am sure this will be not very much, as he likes to builds units.

And next time: Just buy a Vapo or something pro-built, you have it in no time (but I think it will never compare to a custom unit on plywood looking like a monster from deep sea :) )

Just my two cents.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I think, Xeon tMGP is completely right: If you choose a professional builder with experience, the right tools, a good stock of parts and perhaps a few pre-built units in stock, everything should be fine, you probably get the unit shipped in time and it runs smoothly and without problems.
The only thing I see as a problem is that people dont want to pay for this service. A unit created this way must be much more expensive than one built by a hobbyist in a garage with a propane torch on plywood. You have to pay for the part stocking, the pre-built of the unit, the good tools, and last but not least the experience of the builder.

If you order a unit from somebody who is clever and made phase-change units his hobby, but has no business experience at all, things like the things recently can happen. I think the lack of business experience leads to wrong estimates how many units can be built in time, but what everyone here seems to forget is that the price they paid for the unit ist for sure MUCH cheaper than what they would have paid if they asked a HVAC-Tech to build one.

So to the people who waited a long time for their units (but finally got one): Please also consider what $/hour your builder charged you. I am sure this will be not very much, as he likes to builds units.

And next time: Just buy a Vapo or something pro-built, you have it in no time (but I think it will never compare to a custom unit on plywood looking like a monster from deep sea :) )

Just my tho cents.

Exactely, the save thousands of dollars on the more complex items, what they save in money they loos in time, wether dollars or days you pay either way. When I'm compleately don with my stocking and tooling I can gurentee a 1 week turn around for a basic template model but even that modle will carry a price tag that will be a bit heavy after I've don all I can to reduce the costs as low as possible.

[HoriWanderFuLL]

when i got my Quote it was verry simple..

Case = $...
Compressor and condensor +fans = $...
assembly including pipework = $....
Gassing = $....
Shipping = $...
Controller $...

Totals $..
50% deposite up front and rest on completion.

it was not just a figure everrything was stated so as i knew these things take alot of parts and also req Gas wich Cost money.

i think when i saw the assembly price /Labour i knew you could only do this for the love of building as you could not live of Phase change building
you would have to ship out 5 a day .

[[XC] gomeler]

I think a lot of what you guys are forgetting when you toss around the word "professionally built" is that all these issues have occurred with builders that WERE the professionals in our small field. All these builds were big-time builders with reputations, not your shade-tree mechanic.

Maybe I should start completely breaking down my price quotes, always thought it was just simpler to give a total, 1st payment quantity, 2nd payment, shipping estimate :shrug:

[Shalamay]

I don't really care if they give me a break down or just a total. Just stick to what was agreed, both time and money wise. If a problem comes up, a delay for what ever reason or the unit is going to have an extended eta, I expect to be notified both when you know there is a problem and when you have a solution for the problem. My only job is to tell the builder what I want and to pay for services rendered on time. If you are building a unit, guess what, you have a boss as long as he pays. Just my few cents.

[Z3R0-CooL]

I had a project to be built by Gray Mole. I went through phil stanbridge from Extreme Prometeia UK cause i needed the phase unit and case mods.

After waiting for 16 weeks (todate) i was informed that Gray Mole had finished my unit and was about to ship it back to phil for final touches before shipped to me. Few days later i get an e-mail from phil saying that Gray Mole was not happy with Phils behaviour and has stripped my unit and will ship just the case with no phase unit back to Phil.... Phil is still waiting for the case and hardware to come....

I dont know what Gray Moles problem is but his behaviour is unprofessional, unethical and unacceptable. :shrug: :shrug:

good stuff from Gray Mole... highly recommended :clap: ...... NOT :mad:

[noobzed]

I had a project to be built by Gray Mole. I went through phil stanbridge from Extreme Prometeia UK cause i needed the phase unit and case mods.

After waiting for 16 weeks (todate) i was informed that Gray Mole had finished my unit and was about to ship it back to phil for final touches before shipped to me. Few days later i get an e-mail from phil saying that Gray Mole was not happy with Phils behaviour and has stripped my unit and will ship just the case with no phase unit back to Phil.... Phil is still waiting for the case and hardware to come....

I dont know what Gray Moles problem is but his behaviour is unprofessional, unethical and unacceptable. :shrug: :shrug:

good stuff from Gray Mole... highly recommended :clap: ...... NOT :mad:

did you pay something ? perhaps Phil can say something..

[Praz]

Once again the thread is being sidetracked from the original intent of the title of the thread.

[noobzed]

Once again the thread is being sidetracked from the original intent of the title of the thread.

I can change it, now I want everyone knows the troubles.

[IFMU]

I can change it, now I want everyone knows the troubles.
Um, no you can't. It is not within your capabilites.

For the moment, I am killing this thread off for now.

XS Staff is looking into this more and we are doing what we can to help and do what is needed.
Do not create another thread or you will receive an infraction/warning for doing so.
A thread/area will be created to deal with this within due time.
Again, we are doing what we can to help, but if you all raise a frenzy and get everyone flaming just to flame, it does not help.

For now...

Dead Thread.