24" LCD's faster than 60Hz - When?

[Soulburner]

And are all 24" panels really limited to 60Hz?

Dell has their 2407 on sale right now for $569 again with a $100 instant rebate and its really tempting!

If high refresh panels are a LONG way out I may pull the trigger.

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=320-4335

[EniGmA1987]

There are plenty LCDs with more than 60 Hz refresh, but I am not sure about specific availability of ones 24" or larger.

[Order]

Isn't the 2407 75hz?

[EniGmA1987]

Here are a bunch of 24" LCD screens with more than 60Hz refresh.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010190020+1309821328&Subcategory=20&description=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=

[Soulburner]

Isn't the 2407 75hz?
I was under the assumption that these panels at native 1920x1200 could only be set to 60Hz?

Am I wrong?

[WesM63]

Thats the general consensus. Most LCD's will only do the native rez at 60hz, but lower rez's at 75hz. (or so they say)

[Soulburner]

Well since I won't be using anything other than native resolution 90% of the time, 60Hz it is. The only exception would be for a game that will run better at 1680x1050, in which case I would consider running native rather than full so it isn't stretched. It would keep its clarity and be the same size as my current 22".

So, are >60Hz panels on the horizon? And what is with the new Samsung 24" LCD? I haven't heard anything about them, but if you look at the specs they may be cheaper TN panels. The viewing angle of 160* is a dead giveaway, unless this is just marketing to make their 244t look better.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001234

[XenatR]

i dont care about 75hz... when are the 100hz LCDs (of any size > 19") coming out??

with a rt of 2ms or less??

[Nistomax]

Yea my 2405 can do 60Hz on native but can do 75Hz on lower resolutions. 60Hz is fine though because playing games etc with vsync on will keep your hardware from getting stressed out by maxing fps at 60.

[JoeBar]

Can u pls tell me why high refresh rates on lcd's are so important to u?

[NickS]

Can u pls tell me why high refresh rates on lcd's are so important to u?

Because many of us FPS'ers like >60FPS (actually more like >100FPS), or if you're getting FPS higher than 60Hz, image tearing may occur.

[Soulburner]

I only play with VSync on. I haven't found a game yet, aside from an RTS that doesn't tear horribly on an LCD without VSync. With that said, more than 60Hz is desirable not only for that, but it really helps smooth out mouse movement as well.

I have tried it on CRT's and LCD's....even just going from 60 to 75Hz there is a great difference in mouse smoothness, and even moreso when going to 85 or 100 (which I couldn't test on the LCD).

[ziddey]

hmm I've been playing without vsync on and don't experience any teraring. what is it about lcd's that causes tearing??

[EniGmA1987]

I think he said that without Vsync on, he gets tearing...

[JoeBar]

Because many of us FPS'ers like >60FPS (actually more like >100FPS), or if you're getting FPS higher than 60Hz, image tearing may occur.

I only play with VSync on. I haven't found a game yet, aside from an RTS that doesn't tear horribly on an LCD without VSync. With that said, more than 60Hz is desirable not only for that, but it really helps smooth out mouse movement as well.

I have tried it on CRT's and LCD's....even just going from 60 to 75Hz there is a great difference in mouse smoothness, and even moreso when going to 85 or 100 (which I couldn't test on the LCD).

I believe that u need to read a bit about lcd's (or maybe i should? :) ). On crt's everything u say about refresh rate is correct. Cause refresh rate corresponds to the times that an image is being updated within a second.
However on lcd's that's a different story. The amount of refreshes the image gets within a second is depended on the lcd's pixel response time.

I play with v-sync off and i don't get any image tearing even @ 130fps.

[Anemone]

Sadly on 1920x1200 and higher res, you won't see higher synch real soon. The DVI-D connector can't carry a signal at that res at higher refresh. So the answer to you "is it on the horizon question" is to watch for the new digital connectors that "might" come down the pike.

Probably the Nvidia card at Christmas might offer the connection, but don't hold your breath. Basically the makers of large panels and the video cards are gonna have to get of one mind, or enough so to decide where, when and what connection to support.

News that gives you an idea on the rumour mill:
http://www.dailytech.com/Report+Dell+DisplayPort+LCD+Coming+this+Year/article7352.htm

But do remember that both the panels and the cards will have to both have it.

[RPGWiZaRD]

You might wanna wait for the 100Hz LCD technology to enter the market. Too bad it's only used in higherend TVs so far. This is what I'm waiting for, refresh rate is so important for me and less than 100Hz is almost unacceptable nowadays, so that's why I'm sticking to this old CRT as long as I have to.

[[XC] leviathan18]

the whole hz thing is different in lcds....

[Soulburner]

I believe that u need to read a bit about lcd's (or maybe i should? :) ). On crt's everything u say about refresh rate is correct. Cause refresh rate corresponds to the times that an image is being updated within a second.
However on lcd's that's a different story. The amount of refreshes the image gets within a second is depended on the lcd's pixel response time.

I play with v-sync off and i don't get any image tearing even @ 130fps.
Then why do I *have* to use Vsync to avoid tearing? Even on a fast TN panel.

By the way, this is unrelated to why I want a higher refresh rate, read above. The real reason is, I have found it to smooth and speed up mouse movements, and even help with "mouse lag".

[adamsleath]

it'll be years b4 i get an lcd...i hope they improve by then, and hopefully something better than lcd comes out.

it is a dead giveaway when part of the "advertising" for an lcd panel says: No banding; No ghosting; No artifacts; No tearing; No backlight bleed; etc.

you are bound to get these problems when you get an lcd to some degree.

i like the fact that lcds are slimmer and lower power - and they have worked on brightness and contrast...

personally i'd like an lcd with an aperture grille :yawn: i hate seeing pixels.

..and refresh rates are not the same in lcd as in crt...totally different method of picture frame generation....every pixel has to "respond" to rgb intensity in an electrical matrix; scanning electron gun over a phosphor tooob will always be different to that.

crt tubes are relatively big and dumb and clumsy..but it is amazing(to me) how well they perform.

oleds are great imo..but they havent sorted out that some of their thin film color layers (i think it's blue) tend to degrade quickly....so it's not an option yet.

i dont know why they klingon :hehe: to lcd tech when it has such inherent problems...FED/SED seems the obvious tech path for high end monitors imo.

ive been looking at lcds and love buying new toys..but im not going to downgrade to an inferior solution :mad:

..but i think i know why they "klingon" to lcd tech; it's because it's been around for ages and is really cheap to manufacture and all the mf's, wholesalers and bullsh1it artist salesmen can make squillions of profit..while SED/FED remains more expensive...but i spose that's what "they" do...brainwash poor lil me into buying their junk.

poor me poor me; i'm a marketing victim :rofl: :cussing: :soap: :hitself: :spam:


its all a sinister plan to sell lcd's and make money....ahhhhhhhhhhhh :lol:

"help, help i'm being repressed!"
"bloody peasants!"

[adamsleath]

having said all that..my advice (to myself if noone else) is to get a cheepy lcd if i have to when my crt karks it, because it will be superceded quickly

crt's used to be a longer term investment..i see lcd's just like other disposable electronica these days.

[dinos22]

LCD screens are NOT CRT :rolleyes:

[adamsleath]

yeah i was gunna say that :hehe:


Originally shown at CEBIT 2007, the Samsung SM245B will be the first 24" TFT display released using TN Film technology. The arrival of TN Film into this sector is bound to prompt a price war from manufacturers and may well see monitors of this size being more affordable and popular. With an expected retail price of around 650 Euros, the 245B offers the usual 1920 x 1200 resolution, along with a 5ms response time, 3000:1 dynamic contrast ratio, 400 cd/m2 brightness and 160/160 viewing angles. The panel used in the SM245B is the Samsung LTM240CT01 which we have reported about before.The screen also features a VGA and DVI interface (HDCP supported) and ergonomic adjustments for tilt, pivot and height.

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/news.htm#samsung_245b


Samsung SM245B 5ms 24"WS Samsung TN Film (LTM240CT01)

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TFTLCD/Monitor/LTM240CT01/LTM240CT01.htm

Obviously not going to have the pic quality and viewing angles of S-PVA or S-IPS...but it has gtg response :rolleyes:


Dell 2407WFP 6ms G2G 24"WS Samsung S-PVA (LTM240M2) - assuming they havent substituted a different panel recently...

i'd get the dell if i was sure that was the panel they used in the actual one you buy.

[apparently the 2407 A02 revision is the one with less/No banding]
A00 and some A01's apparently werent as good as the A02 rev...
http://www.overclockers.com.au/article.php?id=481694

[Soulburner]

A 24" TN, no thanks. :down:

Just so you know, there are A03 and A04 revisions of the Dell also.

[afireinside]

Ok so if refresh rate doesn't matter on LCDs why is there a massively noticeable difference to me between 85hz on a crt and a 22" TN panel? Games feel incredibly slow on the LCD :(

I hope the 24" TN doesn't have input lag...

[adamsleath]

BenQ FP241W 6ms G2G 24"WS AU Optronics P-MVA (M240UW01 V0)

vs

Dell 2407WFP-HC 6ms G2G 24"WS Samsung S-PVA (LTM240M2)

:confused:

(P-)MVA ({Premium} Multidomain Vertical Alignment): The liquid crystal (LC) cells on MVA panels are in their active state white, and in inactive black and are separated into four domains. This slightly improves viewing angle over TN-type displays (MVAs provide ~45 degrees). MVA panels also provide a high contrast ratio. Grayscale inversion is minimal on these displays. Response time is the second slowest in the industry without ODCs. MVAs and all derivatives hide details at a perpendicular viewing angle due to their multidomain nature. Cells are never perfectly vertical or horizontal in an MVA, but they can be very close.

S-PVA (Super Patterned-ITO Vertical Alignment): These types of panels deliver a full 8-bit color depth and have a structure split into eight domains. At wide viewing angles, they have less color shift and a lower black level than MVAs. According to Samsung, they have a higher contrast ratio and better response time than MVAs as well.

i dont know how to choose cos i havent seen the panels in action...:confused:

[berk]

Refresh rates matter on LCDs too,iirc it's all about what the eyes perceive at higher refresh rates,it's got nothing to do with anything actually being better,like 1ms response times.
I'll try and find the link and i'll edit this post.:)

EDIT:Higher HZ definately helps with motion blurring.Heres a link to a bit of a debate,but it's not the link i was looking for.To be continued......:)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736064
Here's the 120hz 'improvement' schpeil:
'.....The technology is designed to improve moving images and reduce motion blur.......'
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/news.htm#jvc_120hz

[adamsleath]

heh; a big problem with lcd's is that the liquid crystals do not change state quickly enuff. Higher refresh rates will only make the laggy lc's even more apparent. - unless they work out a way of increasing the lc's responsiveness.

liquid crystals respond relatively s l o w l y to luminance changes.


so ...i suppose if response times improve enuff then refresh rates will also increase...so it all makes sense.

i dont think higher refresh rates would make any improvement to a screen with slower response times.

[picard]

Refresh rates matter on LCDs too,iirc it's all about what the eyes perceive at higher refresh rates,it's got nothing to do with anything actually being better,like 1ms response times.
I'll try and find the link and i'll edit this post.:)

Is shorter response time more suitable for games?

[berk]

Pixels in an LCD display respond to voltages which command changes in the liquid crystal orientation. The principle behind RTC / Overdrive (or in BenQ's case, AMA) is that the voltage supplied is more than traditionally would be applied, in order to allow the crystals to rotate more quickly to their required orientation. Moving objects would exhibit changes in luminance and the pixels in turn are being asked to change on request as an object moves across the screen. This can result in some delay regardless of the response time, and motion blur is exhibited. Studies on the human visual system have shown that the eye responds automatically to changes in brightness levels in moving objects, an affect which is called "smooth pursuit tracking" or "spatial-temporal integration" and so not only is there the delay from the pixel response, but perceived problems due to the human visual system. As a very crude example, if a pattern of alternate black and white areas moved from left to right across a screen, our visual system would perceive a grey "ghosting" effect.

Read through this study from BENQ,as shown at TFTcentral.co.uk.

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/benq_fp241w.htm

[Soulburner]

BenQ FP241W 6ms G2G 24"WS AU Optronics P-MVA (M240UW01 V0)

vs

Dell 2407WFP-HC 6ms G2G 24"WS Samsung S-PVA (LTM240M2)

:confused:

(P-)MVA ({Premium} Multidomain Vertical Alignment): The liquid crystal (LC) cells on MVA panels are in their active state white, and in inactive black and are separated into four domains. This slightly improves viewing angle over TN-type displays (MVAs provide ~45 degrees). MVA panels also provide a high contrast ratio. Grayscale inversion is minimal on these displays. Response time is the second slowest in the industry without ODCs. MVAs and all derivatives hide details at a perpendicular viewing angle due to their multidomain nature. Cells are never perfectly vertical or horizontal in an MVA, but they can be very close.

S-PVA (Super Patterned-ITO Vertical Alignment): These types of panels deliver a full 8-bit color depth and have a structure split into eight domains. At wide viewing angles, they have less color shift and a lower black level than MVAs. According to Samsung, they have a higher contrast ratio and better response time than MVAs as well.

i dont know how to choose cos i havent seen the panels in action...:confused:
I tried to compare based on that as well, but found it futile. In the end it came down to reviews of the actual monitor because its up to the company to get the most out of the panel.

[XS2K]

Ok,first of all all LCD's are limited to 60hz/FPS,altough it may receive 75-100FPS from the PC it's discarding each fifth frame to display 60FPS...
I recommend this (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/lcd-parameters_4.html) article....
Between Dell and Benq 24" i would choose Dell because the IQ is better overall,both panels are good but overall S-PVA is considered to be better than P-MVA because of the color reproduction.....

[Soulburner]

That's not what all the reviews say...like I said its hard to compare just the panels, you really need to compare the finished product. Two companies can have different implementations of the panels and the electronics that drive them, and even though they may use exactly the same panel one may be a much better monitor than the other.

That is a very good article, however I do not and will not agree with page 8 in regards to input lag or slow mouse movement. In my own testing not all input devices are created equal. Different keyboard and mouse combinations can and will give you faster or slower response times. For example, my MX1000 was sluggish compared to my Deathadder - when at the same mouse speed. The Deathadder is much more responsive and I can flick it around, change direction and speed without the lag older mice have given me. Same monitor, same pair of eyes, same person, different input device. When there is only one variable changing its hard to put the blame on anything else.

I am also surprised that in the entirety of that very informative and in-depth article, they make no mention of the effects that monitor refresh rate has on mouse movement. They simply say that trying to move it higher than 60Hz on an LCD is pointless, which again I have to disagree with based on first-hand experience.

Lastly, on pages 2-6 they talk about response time, and BFI - Black Frame Insertion which can solve the problem of our eyes retaining the image and seeing "ghosting" (which is actually more your eye ghosting the image, and not the monitor). The PVA and MVA panels have to do this by turning out certain backlights at the right time. Its my opinion that "black" isn't the way to go here because it can induce the "flicker" effect we see on CRTs at 60Hz. There are two remedies for this, 1) Lower the light level to more of a grey-black rather than turning the light completely off and 2) increase LCD refresh rates above the 60Hz rate where the human eye sees the flickering caused by the things explained in that article. I believe once LCD monitors introduce those two things we will see an end to "ghosting", and when the RGB-LED lit screens (read up on those, pages 13-16) hit the market we will have near perfect color. All of this will amount to very good LCD technology.

[adamsleath]

i think you need to have:
1. BFI (blackframe insertion for ghosting) and
2. LED backlight (for better contrast and black levels, color) and
3. increased framerates (ghosting)and
4."highvoltage" overdriven response (response times)to create the "ultimate lcd performance". [some overdrive solutions seem to cause sync prob.'s: d'oh] Also i think:
5. "multiplexing" is known to cause the banding effects due to the way digital info is "sent" to the lcd display grouped in "bands" - this is another problem that needs to be addressed. If anything, high speed "UNI plexing" might solve this problem.
6. there seem to be synchronisation problems between input and display:

so there are 6 areas that need attention right there.

LCDs are being produced on the cheap as far as i am concerned, at the expense of a quality product.

anyway, whatever the "perceived" problems they need fixing.

[FED/SED screens have already solved these problems :rolleyes:]; remember how expensive lcd's were when they first arrived on the market?

but i suppose if you make a product too good, your "built-in redundancy" factor for increased profits just goes out the window. :lol:

just keep selling overpriced junk that gets superceded quickly ;)

[adamsleath]

Is shorter response time more suitable for games?


..and video; yes, but there are other problems that need fixing :devil:

[MaxxxRacer]

Dell 2407WFP-HC 6ms G2G 24"WS Samsung S-PVA (LTM240M2)



I believe that is incorrect. That is the panel that the origional 2407 used, not the HC. It is believed that the HC uses this panel.

http://www.auo.com/auoDEV/products.php?sec=monitor&func=info&product_id=131&items_id=1

[tiro_uspsss]

i'm sick of hearing all the short-comings of LCDs. I only like 3 features about LCDs over CRTs:

1) less power
2) smaller footprint
3) less weight

I dont c many LCDs, but the few that i have seen, arent really that amazing. With the big price drops in LCDs recently, i was considering buying, but even then i cant replace my 4 21" crts all at once... & thats what i love about my crts - i tell them to do whatever res &/or ref-rate i want them to do & thats it. no hz limit. no res limit (compared to other lcds of approx same size).

i too hang on to my crts till there is a viable 'no-limits' display solution...

[Soulburner]

They do have their limitations but when it comes to:

1. Text reading/forums - razer sharp, no analog fuzziness
2. Photo editing - 24" of widescreen real estate to control what I am doing
3. Input options - Component, Composite, DVI, HDMI, VGA, with PIP and USB

Absolutely nothing beats the top LCD's...there isn't a single CRT that will do those things better than mine.

[tiro_uspsss]

They do have their limitations but when it comes to:

1. Text reading/forums - razer sharp, no analog fuzziness
2. Photo editing - 24" of widescreen real estate to control what I am doing
3. Input options - Component, Composite, DVI, HDMI, VGA, with PIP and USB

Absolutely nothing beats the top LCD's...there isn't a single CRT that will do those things better than mine.

i have yet to c this text fuzzy thing ppl talk about - mayb its on smaller/crappier crts. while i agree with real estate for photo editing, u should try multi-monitors if u havent :D. I guess imput options can b useful if u wanna plug ur lcd into something other than ur pc... something that doesnt mean much to me - this household doesnt even have a tv! (no game consoles, no stand-alone dvd players, nothing!)

my crt(s) will take ur lcd on! :D :D :p: :up:

still, i guess i'm with u on wanting to c those 100hz lcds. mayb then i'll swap over..

[XenatR]

the only reason im sticking with lcd is because there is no radiation coming from it

ive got a dual display of:

primary monitor: Samsung 226BW 22" Wide
secondary mon: Samsung 940B 19" (for desktop overflow and to watch this while browsing)

this setup suits me nicely :)

although i love CRT so much :(

[Soulburner]

i have yet to c this text fuzzy thing ppl talk about - mayb its on smaller/crappier crts.
Analog signal vs digital. It's just the nature of the beast. If you are running an LCD at its native resolution through DVI you get a pixel-perfect rendering of the data on the screen, something an analog device just can't do.

[EternityZX9]

Is shorter response time more suitable for games?

For any game that is an online FPS shooter it makes a BIG difference.

That's why I refuse to buy an LCD yet. Sticking it out with my CRT. I'm capable of 100Hz on the 6800GT that I have now...hopefully I'll be able to push it to 140Hz or more when I upgrade. <3 my CRT.

[Soulburner]

Why? Mine doesn't "ghost" at all.

[XenatR]

Why? Mine doesn't "ghost" at all.

yes it does.

go from your lcd to a crt and youll see how great the difference is

youll see how your current lcd ghosts and plays choppy in comparison :)

[Hey_Its_Cole]

Why? Mine doesn't "ghost" at all.

I am with you on that, I went from a high end CRT to a high end LCD, I actually gamed better on the LCD, though I do not think the LCD made me a better gamer. I could tell no difference between the two and I have perfect vision.

[Soulburner]

yes it does.

go from your lcd to a crt and youll see how great the difference is

youll see how your current lcd ghosts and plays choppy in comparison :)
What? I used CRT monitors my entire life. I came from a 100Hz CRT straight to 60Hz LCD's. First the Sceptre 22" and now the BenQ 24".

I will say it again...they don't have any problems with ghosting (which is really retinal persistence anyway).

I can provide a video if you so disbelieve in what a quality LCD can do.

[Knight]

What? I used CRT monitors my entire life. I came from a 100Hz CRT straight to 60Hz LCD's. First the Sceptre 22" and now the BenQ 24".

I will say it again...they don't have any problems with ghosting (which is really retinal persistence anyway).

I can provide a video if you so disbelieve in what a quality LCD can do.


I believe what you say! :)

May I ask you for a video?

When I upgrade my aging LCD (pushing 4 years now) I would like to know what performance increase/change will occur.

If you don't mind a video.

It is so hard to find a review that shows the screen in use. :(

[Soulburner]

I will see what I can do tomorrow :)

[XenatR]

ok... are you running the lcd in its native resolution?

because im running cs1.6 in 640res (with crt 640 res is best for spraying with in fps games)

use the same res on lcd and you can REALLY tell the difference. not only the way it looks, but the way it runs.. spraying a rifle is way too random, and its just not as responsive

i guess it depends how seriously you play. i played cs at league level, and was pretty damn good until my clan disbanded and i didnt care to start a new one. so for me, the difference was VERY apparent. and i think every serious gamer will testify that lcd is just horrible for gaming at a serious level