My PCS keeps blowin the breaker

[A Scream]

Ok, So, I just got a dual head phase change system from someone here. It has switches on the front that turn the different heads on, and I had always unplugged it after I was done, but I forgot the last time I used it.

When I switch the main head on, the compressor turns on, the lights dim and stay dim until the breaker blows. The guy I bought it from mentioned that temps weren't reaching the -55c that should be getting to. Now I can't get it to run. The second head works fine.

Does it have a leak?

Thanks

[boshuter]

That doesn't sound like a leak. Can you post up some pics of how it's setup, or a link to the build thread on it? I think a lot more info is going to be needed to help you with this problem. You say the "second head works fine", does that mean that if you shut off the first head the unit will work ok?

[expansionvalve]

Without more information it's going to be impossible to help.

From your post I shall assume, one compressor and two heads, each head maybe controlled by a separate solenoid valve or similar via the switches on the front.

If the compressor and second head works fine while the first head is off, I'd take a guess at the wiring to the first solenoid being bad or the solenoid coil being up the pictures and/or associated circuit wiring.

If on the other hand the unit has two compressors, I'd certainly be looking at head one for bad wiring or faulty compressor etc.

Like said, without posting exacting information on your unit all we can do is take wild guesses.

I very much doubt if it has one compressor it has a gas leak, also, if the unit has been constructed with some thought, it shouldn't matter if it has been unplugged or not, the switches on the front should isolate each circuit.

[A Scream]

Sorry about the lack of information guys. It's a dual compressor. Here are some pics. Sorry about the blurr; it's really hard to keep this camera steady.

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1255/sany0113uv8.th.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sany0113uv8.jpg) http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6753/sany0117ff4.th.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sany0117ff4.jpg) http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8086/sany0119zx7.th.jpg (http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sany0119zx7.jpg)

[wdrzal]

any chance of a wiring diagram attached


Btw (nothing to do with above user)because many here do it ,you should WARN other USERS when hosting off XS servers, you think its free while we all pay by getting hammered with junk mail that all doest not get filtered out and some that we want does :mad: :mad:

there should be a policy about warning on this type of hosting,when I click on a XS hosted pic I don't get a screen of advertisements and ads flashing all over the place.

mods and admin should discuss this,while its save space on XS servers most free web hosting that do it for free have ulterior motives. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Rock]

Question: What is your household wiring situation? Is this circuit a dedicated one, what amperage? Or is the rest of the house going black when the breaker pops?

It is an easy task to run a new 20 amp circuit to your computer room, and it is far cheaper than buring the house down by pulling too much load thru an under built circuit.

[wdrzal]

Question: What is your household wiring situation? Is this circuit a dedicated one, what amperage? Or is the rest of the house going black when the breaker pops?

It is an easy task to run a new 20 amp circuit to your computer room, and it is far cheaper than buring the house down by pulling too much load thru an under built circuit.

good point 2 compressors ,drawing 4 to6 time the running voltage will blow a standard fuse all the time, you need to know amprage and electricity101


even if this in NOT the cause this is one of the potentalyy deadly problems of DIY guys selling their product and except it to protect the owners home as comercial ones do. There needs to be electical data on built unit and person using unit needs a manual so they understand what its means.


How many of you guys building and selling units are a fixing a electrical tag of voltage and wattage/amperage and a usuers manual???????

[A Scream]

I believe it is a 20amp breaker, could be 15. But it is the only thing plugged in.

I made a rough Wiring D. I followed wires and stuff and I think I made the correct Diagram. However, I am ignorant in the ways of drawing it (Will change soon though). The switches are double pull, double throw. And are wired so that the fan will turn on if either compressor turns on.

Ok, if you guys understand any of the above, or the diagram, I will be amazed.


After all that, I think that the compressor is siezed. Is there any way of fixing that, or do I need a new one?

[Rock]

I more carefully re-read your thread and notice the following:

1. The unit is not new to you, and it was not blowing the breaker.
2. Something has changed and now it does blow the breaker, but there is nothing else on the circuit.

Thus the concern that the unit itself has an unknown problem.

[wdrzal]

many times a single circuit may cover many rooms if just used for utility outlets, a device added in another room can subtract from total circuit ampperage.

[A Scream]

Correct Rock. Something has changed so that the breaker now blows. It used to work.

wdrzal, I know for sure that it is the unit. I have a surge protector plugged in and it now trips the surge protector. It didn't do that before and absolutly nothing has changed. I have also plugged it straight into the wall and that blows the breaker.

When switch it on, the compressor does not sound like the other one.

[sacha35]

Can you disconnect the wiring from the compressors and test it with a multi meter, sounds like a dead short if it worked OK before, but as Walt said some household wiring is done in a radial circuit rather than a ring circuit so could be a problem if you have added to that circuit which will draw more current.

Could you please let us know what you have connected to the circuit you are using, you can do this by simply switching that fuse off or unplugging it and then go round the house to see what sockets work, then see what you normally have plugged into these sockets which are drawing a load.

If you can do this and list out what is plugged in we should be able to work out what loading is being drawn from this circuit.

also let me know what rating the fuse is and what type of fuse it is, I.E MCB ect, if so what rating is it and type.

Also if you can then let me have the specs of the compressors used we can work out what the current rating that will be on these when running and the start up current that will be drawn.

If you can get this information then we can start to work out what the problem is.

[[XC] MarioMaster]

if the compressor is indeed seized the overload protection should kick it offline, there may be a short or a missing overload protector

[A Scream]

Ok, there is nothing on the 15amp breaker besides this phase change unit. I tested every outlet in the house and if there was something I unplugged it (2 things, a lamp and a clock).

The wires are disconnected from the compressors and there is no connection no matter what position the switches are in

Embarco 110v 60hz

Overload protector? like an internal fuse? I don't think my PCU has one.

[SexyMF]

It looks to me that both compressors are the same. Since one works and one blows the breaker (with only one on) then one is seized. The dimmed light means you are dropping voltage due to excessive current draw. This just compounds the problem because the compressor will never start under low voltage conditions.
As for wiring - it looks like entirely simple. There is no fuse in the system. Each compressor has its live switched along with the live to the fan from the DPDT switch. The live is common to both polls on each switch.

So it comes down to unplugging the unit and checking the 3 terminals for the compressors windings on resistance range of a multimeter. Identical compressors should provide identical readings. You will see 2 readings, one a little bigger than the other. One pin is common to both readings.

If the starter failed then you may have burnt out the start winding. You will see if you have when you check for 2 resistance readings.
Also, check each pin to the compressor housing (for a short to earth).

PLEASE unplug the unit before doing the tests. They are tests with the power off!

[wdrzal]

well then its a very high chance of a electrical promblem,from a short to a failed capacitor or relay to failed compressor.

warning capacitors can hold a deadly charge when unit is un-plugged

[A Scream]

The one that works has the 2 readings, one higher than the other...

The main compressor has one reading and that one reading is lower than the equivilant on the other compressor. None of the pins are shorted to the chasis.

[_HL4E_HalfLife_]

The one that works has the 2 readings, one higher than the other...

The main compressor has one reading and that one reading is lower than the equivilant on the other compressor. None of the pins are shorted to the chasis.

The 2 lower readings should add up to be very close to the 1 higher reading like on my Embraco compressor the 3 reading at x1K are 0.4, 0.10, 0.14 so if u add the 0.4 and 0.10 together u get 0.14 which means this compressors wiring isn't damaged. I hope this helps some.

[A Scream]

One of my lower pins isn't registering at all. Something for sure is wrong with the compressor. What, I don't know. I hope it's something I can fix.

[wdrzal]

you must remove all other wires and capacitors before taking ohm readings

S to C.............R to C then all post to bare metal case, should be infinate or open.

[A Scream]

Looking at the pins,, there's the Top one, the Right, one and the Left one. ohms are as follows.

Top to Right: 3.0ohm
Top to Left: no connection
Right to Left: no connection
Top to bare metal of case: .6ohm
Right to bare metal of case: 2.4ohm
Left to bare metal of case: no connection

I hope that's what your looking for.

[wdrzal]

Looking at the pins,, there's the Top one, the Right, one and the Left one. ohms are as follows.

Top to Right: 3.0ohm
Top to Left: no connection
Right to Left: no connection
Top to bare metal of case: .6ohm
Right to bare metal of case: 2.4ohm
Left to bare metal of case: no connection

I hope that's what your looking for.

above means nothing ,you must know what terminal is what

start to common=start windings

Run to common=run windings

then check for shorts to ground....... any ohms reading from bare metal case to any terminal = direct short......

[SexyMF]

above means nothing ,you must know what terminal is what

You have no bedside manner wdrzal. He has told us there is shorts in the compressor. It is shagged. Comparing identical compressors made this easy to diagnose.

Replace the compressor. This isn't fixable unfortunately

[[XC] Lead Head]

Looking at the pins,, there's the Top one, the Right, one and the Left one. ohms are as follows.

Top to Right: 3.0ohm
Top to Left: no connection
Right to Left: no connection
Top to bare metal of case: .6ohm
Right to bare metal of case: 2.4ohm
Left to bare metal of case: no connection

I hope that's what your looking for.

The compressor's windings have shorted. Its trash sadly :(

[wdrzal]

You have no bedside manner wdrzal. He has told us there is shorts in the compressor. It is shagged. Comparing identical compressors made this easy to diagnose.

Replace the compressor. This isn't fixable unfortunately

if you can give 100% accurate advice when told top to left bottom to right, from what direction was he looking, sure glad you don't work for me, accurate readings are essential listing posts as I explained, I explained from what letter to what letter, I don't go to a doctor because of his beside manner, I could care the least ,its because I,m confident he knows his job.

can you tell if those where for 1 or 2 compressors, was it the start or run winding that failed????? why why why?????? this is no joke people get eletrocuted and homes burn down.

I usually don't give excact electrical advice but I did tell him what meassurments to post, if someone doesn't know what s/r/c are on a compressor I sure don't trust lives on saying its a short,...replace compressor.... being blunt was intentional to drive home the point maybe he's in over his head.

[A Scream]

wdrzal: I appreciate the help. I'm sorry my lack of knowledge of phase change makes this hard. I want to learn this stuff.


On the main/failed compressor:

common to run: 3.0ohm
common to start: no connection
common to bare metal of case: .6ohm
run to bare metal of case: 2.4ohm
start to bare metal of case: no connection

[SexyMF]

wdrzal: My job is to fix things. I do this mostly without schematics and straight answers. It is a skill I have developed. From the system presented it did not matter what terminals he used. As long as it was an identical comparison. Which is was. A short to case on any pin is bad.

If people had all the information then they would not need the help.

I tire of your constant disclaimers. Just add it into your signature and stop flogging the same old lines in everybodies threads. You don't want to help because somebody might do something and you think you will get the blame (or lawsuit). Get real.

[wdrzal]

Schematics don't have X marks the spot of the failure on them, you first need to know how to read them.Beside how many units come with schematics and electrical data plates affixed??????

I don't know what the problem is, but its seems to be getting worse. sexymf you must have a different code of ethics than I. a short indicats something went wrong, sometimes it just happens from years of work and insulation breakdown ,but that can be determined, so can the 100 or so other reasons.While you have the right to disagree with my methods,so do I have the right to disagree with yours.

A scream its not your fault to the point unless you are you over reaching,by that you are not familiar how electrical circuits work,control wiring and refrigeration wiring of the 4 basic types of hermetic compressors. I know nothing about you ,your abilitys or if you are 12 or 40, but that don't matter either, unless you understand electricity 101,electrical motor types,wire sizing,maxium loads ,capacitor sizing or have manufactures specs, plus hundres of other related issues to trouble shoot a problem. simpley determining what burt up is not good enough, you must know why

why did that compressor fail, you don't want to buy another compressor and it also burns up, since you purchased the unit ,I assumed you didn't have the tools or a complete understanding to build one(no offense, there is a long learning curve) lef tto right right to top, does mean nothing, I need to know specificly the number(ohms) between given posts. start/common/run...... Then even if a compressor is determined to have failed, the next question is why. People have no idea how many people replace parts till it works only to fail again then the warrenty is up so they sell a new unit(this is refrigeration & AC field @ its worst,same as some auto mechanics & more) because they never tracked down the original problem

some special tools are need to test state of insulation,and starting components and capacitors.

It's the great personal risk you expose yourself too or your family losing its home is serious. You NEVER,NEVER guess I never did and never will,and now with electronics combined with electrical circuits the risk of dammage is almost certian if a wrong leed or trace is touched.

I been watching this for years here and on other sites. my conclusion is no one will buy or go to the libary to have a good reference book at hand.

guys jump from site to site learning a bit here and there some doesn't even apply to whats being done here. Much is just wrong information.you will never get a complete picture or no where near by doing this.I keep saying ths,tried al different methods to get guys to do self study off the net, to no avil.

The internet is not edited for accuracy

I can't type dozens of pages to completly explain a one sentance question,Why does my breaker pop? that couldbe severial hundred pages to just start to tackel subject. If you don't understand ,you are just copying,so you learnt nothing. I hope you all are here for more than that.

I read Xf & XS a long time before joing and the problems were not as prevalent as they now seem. it seems guys go from air coolind whick is low voltage dc mostly to the 6 month run we had a while back ,that everyone while never having bazed a joint or understood pressure and chemical energy or proper building techniques want to start with a cascade.

I think the attitude is,why waste my presious money and time I will just build the cooldest first, even that all others failed(with no experience), I can do it.

I can tell everyone this, you will never,never learn all you need to know from bits and pieces forum jumping. read a good book ,get a understading of the basics,Then ask intelligent questions. At least I have some confidance I didn't dirrect someone to burn a home down.

Finnally some of the people think being in business is learning on someone eleses dime. you don't build a substandard unit and sell it to fund your next learning unit.

You should have a very good understanding of electricity and motors,brazing fitting tube and refrigeration controls and sizing along with all the mechanical fundimentals to go along with this. or buy a unit that cover by a very good warrenty.

some electrical grid reading for start;

http://science.howstuffworks.com/power.htm

[gosmeyer]

I been watching this for years here and on other sites. my conclusion is no one will buy or go to the libary to have a good reference book at hand.
Walt,
I agree with your post but that’s a pretty broad brush.
Eric,

[n00b 0f l337]

The internet is indeed not edited for accuracy, I personally went out and bought a book on refrigeration and I'm pretty sure quite a few other people here have them. They're not always useful, or even partially useful though for alot of matters.

[A Scream]

simpley determining what burt up is not good enough, you must know why


I know, that's another reason why I'm here. I gave you the information your looking for. Don't assume that just because I didn't know what you were abbreviating, that I would make up information.

The compressor is burnt, that means I get to take it apart.

[n00b 0f l337]

We don't have to know why it burnt.

Simply put your compressor seems to be dead, be it shipping damage or improper electrical wiring, its dead. Contact a builder if you'd like to get the compressor replaced with something that will fit in the case, or to have the units refrigerant recovered and then possibly just have the unit rebuilt to be a better single compressor setup. Either way shouldn't cost you a whole lot and most likely the builder might be willing to take the broken units parts (like the lineset) in exchange for a replumb and charge.
I hope this helps.