Cutting up a condenser question...

[bartsimsonii]

I'm contemplating purchasing some of these condensers:
http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/8312/871qy0.th.jpg (http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=871qy0.jpg)

They're 8x10x2 but I like to use them for SS' for now.

My plan is to cut them up to 4 4x5 pieces and connect 2 4x5 pieces for each SS. So in the end I would have a fan/condenser/fan/condenser sandwich.

So now im wondering if that's the best way to go about doing this or if anyone here has a better idea of how to use these.

[Duh]

take a look at blank gods work.. the guy is handy as hell

[bartsimsonii]

take a look at blank gods work.. the guy is handy as hell

Do you have his exact screen name? I thought it was [Blank]GoD.

[n00b 0f l337]

Ah these, I use them for larger units. Ultimately though Its cheaper to buy a proper 120mm condenser after you have to buy or make u-bends and such.

[bartsimsonii]

Ah these, I use them for larger units. Ultimately though Its cheaper to buy a proper 120mm condenser after you have to buy or make u-bends and such.


For the amount I'm getting these for I'm pretty sure this would be cheaper. Especially if I could make 2 SS condensers out of every one of these.

[wdrzal]

If you got them for free, the work involved is tremendous & tedious ,while the above mentioned user showed his metal working skill and knowledge and craftsmanship and drive for perfection. He did it because of his location & personal challenge, I believe.Unless you are a very,very skilled in metal working and brazing you will have much trouble.don't forget cost of brazing gases and rods and U bends unless you make them as he did. Plus what is your time worth?

If you think your going to make money doing it, go cut someones grass.

But I will say, challenging yourself, will always show where you are in life's continuous learning curve.And thats the way to learn & prove your skill

[n00b 0f l337]

$15 + shipping? ;)

[wdrzal]

Here gaze at this thread.


http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=129043

[star882]

How much are the condensers? You might as well use it whole if it's cheap.

[bartsimsonii]

$15 + shipping? ;)


Not exactly it's much less.:D

Ehh I was thinking of using it as brazing practice as well.

[n00b 0f l337]

Ah he's giving you a deal since the last pallets got some damage? Watch out, I'm passing them up becuase theyve been opened and the weathering damage most likely includes normal copper oxidiation INSIDE the condenser.

[bartsimsonii]

Ah he's giving you a deal since the last pallets got some damage? Watch out, I'm passing them up becuase theyve been opened and the weathering damage most likely includes normal copper oxidiation INSIDE the condenser.

I thought about that but he seems like a nice guy, if theres a problem im sure he'll take care of it. If not well then i may have to chalk it up to experience.

Im still contemplating whether or not I should.

If you got them for free, the work involved is tremendous & tedious ,while the above mentioned user showed his metal working skill and knowledge and craftsmanship and drive for perfection. He did it because of his location & personal challenge, I believe.Unless you are a very,very skilled in metal working and brazing you will have much trouble.don't forget cost of brazing gases and rods and U bends unless you make them as he did. Plus what is your time worth?

If you think your going to make money doing it, go cut someones grass.

But I will say, challenging yourself, will always show where you are in life's continuous learning curve.And thats the way to learn & prove your skill

Hehe yea your right. But if im going through the hassle of building an SS might as well gain some skill as a result of it.


BTW, anyone here have some advice on an oxy-acetylene torch set?

[n00b 0f l337]

Yeah hes a pretty decent guy, ended up refunding me for a few that were basically full of crap, he sent me a replacement, still full of crap, ended up returning them.
They were good for a while though. Wish I bought more then :(

[bartsimsonii]

Yeah hes a pretty decent guy, ended up refunding me for a few that were basically full of crap, he sent me a replacement, still full of crap, ended up returning them.
They were good for a while though. Wish I bought more then :(

He already sent you a few that were like that?

That makes me a bit weary.:stick:

[n00b 0f l337]

First two orders of em were good, recent ones were bad.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Just flush methanol mixed with sand through it a fiew times, chemicly cleans and abressively cleans them in one shot. Then blast air or nitrogen through them to push out any and all sand/alcohol. We usualy use a methanol mix to flush condencers and evaps for re-using them.

[n00b 0f l337]

Thats a pretty big hassle though. I really would suggest just buying 120mm condensers.

[bartsimsonii]

Thats a pretty big hassle though. I really would suggest just buying 120mm condensers.

Well theres no harm in trying and I have the time to try it out. It might not work out but then ill just remember not to do it again.

Any recommendations on torches?

[n00b 0f l337]

Mapp torch from benzomatic.

[bartsimsonii]

Mapp torch from benzomatic.

I was thinking of something a bit more permanent. I heard mapp can be costly in the long run.

[n00b 0f l337]

A single mapp bottle ($7) lasts me thru 2-3 builds or more. I don't really consider that pricey.

[bartsimsonii]

A single mapp bottle ($7) lasts me thru 2-3 builds or more. I don't really consider that pricey.


I thought I heard somewhere a nice little smith jewlers grade torch is a better investment(easier to learn, use ect.)? Is that true?

[wdrzal]

Just flush methanol mixed with sand through it a fiew times, chemicly cleans and abressively cleans them in one shot. Then blast air or nitrogen through them to push out any and all sand/alcohol. We usualy use a methanol mix to flush condensers and evaps for re-using them.


All I'm going to say is Sand..................:shock: :shakes: :nuts:.............. I can't believe you posted that.

There are chemical ways to flush and clean a condensers or copper tube in general,As you eluded too.You what to rid the smooth,once very clean tube of contaminates of all kinds whether oxidation or physical debri ,Not Add more.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

ever hear of sand blasting?

when don the inside is pollished and very clean, there are NO contaminants, even you can not be that ignorant?

[bartsimsonii]

All I'm going to say is Sand..................:shock: :shakes: :nuts:.............. I can't believe you posted that.

There are chemical ways to flush and clean a condensers or copper tube in general,As you eluded too.You what to rid the smooth,once very clean tube of contaminates of all kinds whether oxidation or physical debri ,Not Add more.

If you were to get all the sand out after the flushing I imagine it would actually help.

[serialk11r]

What about a radiator cleaning compound?

[n00b 0f l337]

Will that remove oxidation though?

[wdrzal]

A single mapp bottle ($7) lasts me thru 2-3 builds or more. I don't really consider that pricey.

The downside to a cooler torch is a joint takes much longer to heat. All the while heat is conducting away from joint + adding to carbon scale on outer tube or damage to the part if a valve or other component.

Nothing beats a 2 gas torch for this work, but is more costly and you need training if you never used one. Go to where you plan to acquire the gases from and most will guide you and give basic training and even let you use one of their torches to give basic advice.They probably sell one for a good price as foreign copies has held down the price of brand name torch sets.

[bartsimsonii]

The downside to a cooler torch is a joint takes much longer to heat. All the while heat is conducting away from joint + adding to carbon scale on outer tube or damage to the part if a valve of other component.

Nothing beats a 2 gas torch for this work, but is more costly and you need training if you never used one. Go to where you plan to acquire the gases from and most will guide you and give basic training and even let you use one of their torches to give basic advice.They probably sell one for a good price as foreign copies has held down the price of brand name torch sets.

The local places around here only have the normal larger oxy/acet torches. So I would have to go online to get a smith jewelers set.

[wdrzal]

ever hear of sand blasting?

when don the inside is pollished and very clean, there are NO contaminants, even you can not be that ignorant?

Yes I have a pressurized sand Blaster. I just don't use it on the inside of a refrigeration system. The smooth tube Needs no "Polishing" :fact:

[wdrzal]

The local places around here only have the normal larger oxy/acet torches. So I would have to go online to get a smith jewelers set.

I would recommend a small sized combination torch (light duty), you can braze or put on cutting torch head. Very useful if a DIY guy

while those jewelry torches work they are to small in my opion and you can have a combination set that will do many different types of work for the same money or a little more. Torches will last a lifetime if cared for so buy one you can do all jobs with Brazing (gas welding), heating,& cutting

[Xeon th MG Pony]

The Tubes we use are riffled, So smooth? Haven't seen many of them my self. The systems we are salvaging have been heavy duty service and tend to be sludged up, the mix tends to clean it up and remove deposits very nicely. It leaves the internals very clean with no residues or any of the sanding agent, this is why it is blasted with a high burst of air or nitrogen through it to guarantee there is nothing left in it. Then run through all your usual drying techniques. How is that in your mind going to leave any bad residue? It seems like a very illogical proposition.

[wdrzal]

Since there are joint & bends there are turbulent flows if you ever studied fluid mechanics.

Let me explain this way, In the days of the west cost gold rush I,m sure you know one of the best places to find gold was behind a rock or a bend in the river where water created eddies. the gold would collect in these spots of slower moving water (analogy-working fluid or gas)and may have been there for thousands of years through all kinds of high fast water and floods. ;)

Simply there is the same things going on in bends and edges where the U tubes attach to the straight tubes and sand you can't even see without magnification will remain there. then like like the gold every once in a while something will change and some of it moves until it collects again somewhere

I don't think you want to add a abrasive to any part that moves.

xeon when I talk "clean room clean" thats what the inside of system I designed and installed looks like. No matter how large or small.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Not quite the same thing though, and through multiple tests I can bet my life when don via proper procedure you can not get cleaner using said method.

Same thing here, hence why we used a chemical abrasive washing agent to clean it to the point of being new when just liquid failed to yield results. Fun thing for thoughs who have access to large amounts of scrap parts is to cut the system apart after making it and using it for a bit to see what the inside looks like, I did that with my brazes be for I started to braze systems.

The method is one way that is highly effective at salvaging weathered components that where decommissioned improperly. If the unit was freshly de-commissioned or new then of course doing so would be counter productive, but if it has sat open to atmosphere then some thing more aggressive will be needed.

[wdrzal]

If failed you used the wrong chemical for the reaction required.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

The chemicals we'd have to use to remove it would eat the tube its self ;) So ya we had the right chemical, but some are too good at cleaning for what we needed. I don't think you are grasping the point of the operation, it was weathered, fluid can not remove every thing magically some times you need some thing much more physically to chip it away.

I have a mag light here, a battery burst and an alkaline salt formed locking it in, using acetic acid I freed the battery enough to remove it but some is not going to dissolve into the acetic acid. Now I can use Hydrochloric acid, that will remove it no problem! How ever, it will remove the flash light its self! Thus failing the point, I need to physicaly chip it off, or sand it off, even though there are plenty of chemicals I could use that will remove it.

[wdrzal]

Xeon I grasp what you are doing, But I telling you the cleaning can be down no matter how dirty with out abrasives.

I also understand reasoning,we all take from prior experience or education to make up our total knowledge of a given subject. My point is if you only draw from experience or your personal R&D and leaving the education out. You will not learn in a lifetime what a few books of knowledge will teach you ,drawing from the know facts of earlier generations of others work.It's because we draw on the cumulative knowledge of people before us that allowed us to progress to where we are at now technologically and we will keep progressing pushing the envelope or breaking boundaries that were once thought not possible........... My constant message is read a good book to understand better.Even reading does not equal a great Teacher and great learning learning environment to help us understand. Even if this is just a hobby,READ a BOOK. :toast:

[serialk11r]

Will that remove oxidation though?

Yes that's what they're designed to do, as well as remove other impurities.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Xeon I grasp what you are doing, But I telling you the cleaning can be down no matter how dirty with out abrasives.

I also understand reasoning,we all take from prior experience or education to make up our total knowledge of a given subject. My point is if you only draw from experience or your personal R&D and leaving the education out. You will not learn in a lifetime what a few books of knowledge will teach you ,drawing from the know facts of earlier generations of others work.It's because we draw on the cumulative knowledge of people before us that allowed us to progress to where we are at now technologically and we will keep progressing pushing the envelope or breaking boundaries that were once thought not possible........... My constant message is read a good book to understand better.Even reading does not equal a great Teacher and great learning learning environment to help us understand. Even if this is just a hobby,READ a BOOK. :toast:

I'm paying 3 grand for a course, I think I better be getting some thing more then just a book ;) That and I happen to have 3 engineers to work beside to learn, So far I've learnt much & more every day, & Look forward for the course to start, right now I am reading two very old books on ammonia refrigeration systems they are quite interesting too.

[wdrzal]

I am reading two very old books on ammonia refrigeration systems they are quite interesting too.

That is much to dangerous for a DIY forum,you need special fresh air equipment and training and licensing .They Even stiffened the security around large storage tanks since 911.


http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/ammoniarefrigeration/index.html


http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I know that very well, I am researching it and in the future I may very well go into getting Certed for Ammonia refrigeration, I most certainly wouldn't recommend it for a home project and in fact on RE you'll see that clearly by my comments on a guy asking about that very thing!

The book is: Mechanical refrigeration - Mathews
The Power plant Library 6-11

EDIT: Found my second one:
Engineer's Handbook
A ready reference book for
the engineers & mechanical Tradesmen
specializing in
Refrigeration

from Douglas Printing Co. Ltd.

Again this is a career path I have invested in heavily both in time/practice & effort. Best way to under stand a field fully is start from the beginning and Ammonia and CO2 where the first!

[{.bLanK} GoD]

"Poof" Appears from thin air. :)
Back to the original topic. If you are keen enough and have some decent metal work and pipe fitting skills, (not to mention time and patience) cutting a condensor up and making smaller ones can be done without to much hassle.
Sift through my thread if you haven't already, and see how much work I went through to make them and also clean them to a high standard.

On the sand blasting the inside of condensors topic, I would never put sand into a condensor (or any refrigeration part) and never recommend it.:slapass:

Also to the end of my thread, you'll see the oxy/acet set I brought not so long ago. Can't remember the price exactly. (She was ticked up on the tool account) but it was about $900NZD for everything. Half a doz tips, goggles, cutting tip, 10m hose, tip files, trolley, carry case and work supplies me the gas and bottles.
Very nice kit, I've just finished using it on three 50KW+ VRV systems.

[wdrzal]

I'm paying 3 grand for a course, I think I better be getting some thing more then just a book ;) That and I happen to have 3 engineers to work beside to learn, So far I've learnt much & more every day, & Look forward for the course to start, right now I am reading two very old books on ammonia refrigeration systems they are quite interesting too.

Thats just Super,...:) life's a never ending learning curve,Put education with mechanical skills and you can design/engineer anything you want. And your absolutely correct,you must start with basics and learn know facts, normally found in a good book. I have purchased many books that were 20 to 40 year older editions than when I started post HS study. almost all have info occasionally I still reference, to be sure of what I read 30 years ago,written 60 to 80 years Ago.,that was written at around the time refrigeration really became more prevalent in the 1920's, but really took off after WWII when our veterans came home.. No PCs ,no Internet only books and drafting tables ,,& slide rules & endless Laws of physics and calculations..... great luck on the journey, :toast: :toast: :toast: