If Windows XP Got Direct X 10, Would You Still Go Vista??

[Kunaak]

Right now, theres almost no real reason to go Vista... while I was fairly impressed with somethings, like its multithreaded by default, and windows Movie Maker is cool as hell...

most things left a bad feeling for me... drivers, games, hardware I simply couldnt use...
after a week with vista, I just got tired of it, and went back to XP.

now I wonder, would I go back to Vista... if XP could get Direct X 10?

cause thats the only signifigant upgrade that seems to matter to me.
other then DX10, I can't see any real reason to go Vista anymore.

[Movieman]

You couldn't pay me enough money to try Vista at this point in it's development.
(ok, you could, $10K or better and I'll sell myself!:D )
seriously, it's got some nice looking toys in it and maybe in 6 months it will be usable but now it's got more problems than Bush does.

OOPS! I guess everyone will know how I voted!:rofl:

[dinos22]

Vistas Newer, so its got a longer life span.

[NickS]

I've said this in a few other threads, I've been using Ultimate 32 Bit now for the last month and I absolutely LOVE it. Works great with my hardware too, so yes, I'll be staying Vista.

E6300 @ 3.5, X1900GT Rev1, X-Fi XtremeMusic, P5B Deluxe WiFi/AP, etc.

[Okda]

IF WinXP32 got DX10 , i will buy it ;)

[phelan1777]

Vista is not needed. Its just an excuse to spend more on the next Gen of Hardware.


What happened to when software could not keep up with Hardware?

[STEvil]

XP-64 with DX10, to heck with Vista.

[nn_step]

what if, there was another option...

[Pyr0]

XP-64 with DX10, to heck with Vista.
what he said :D

[ChaosMinionX]

what if, there was another option...


Yes yes, Im all for that :D

[2000army]

sure why not

[BigDov]

I'd be okay with that...... I'm really pretty happy with XP right now.

Still looking for that "something else" that nn_step is referring to

[bazx]

vistas problem is xp

xp is just to good dx10 would seal the deal

[Vapor]

Already switched my Windows machines to Vista and trust me I have no use for DX10 until 3DMark07/08. ;)

Don't use either as my daily OS any more though....

[Kunaak]

for me personally, I would love to see XP64 finally get some real attention.

with how good Xp32 is, Xp64 has the same potential.... without the 3.2 gig ram limits, so it would have a nice long life span ahead of it, since 2 gigs of ram is quickly becoming the new standard, and 4 gigs is now the high end.
but with XP32.... 4 gigs of ram, becomes a bad idea... since its basically a waste....

I've used Vista64 and was impressed with some parts of it... but at the end I just got fed up with it, and gave up.
what I tell everyone that asks me, is "wait till the end of summer, by then it will be out of the early adoptor phase, and support should be well on its way by then - till then, just use what you got".

I dont hate vista... I just dont see any major reason to use it anymore, after spending alittle while with it.
however, on the flip side, I recently installed XP64 for some recent ram testing, and in my free time been gaming and I gotta say, games seem to run damn well on this OS, and Driver support is no problem.

in fact, the first problem I came across so far, was only last night...
I downloaded Memtest86 1.70... tried to install it to a floppy, only to find Memtest86 simply doesnt work on a 64 bit OS...
but everything else, has been pretty damn good.
I'd even say my latest game I am into "titan quest - Immortal Throne" runs better on XP64 for some reason. however, I can't say that for sure, since I didnt do a side by side comparison when I moved to Xp64, but for a "gut feeling", it definatly feels smoother, and less choppy.

[thecoldanddark]

I have already switched to Vista. Vista is much better than xp in many ways and is currently held back by drivers.

[KJatl]

I hate Vista with a passion. I purchased a laptop recently and was completely irate that there are NO XP drivers available so 'down-grading' to XP was not an option.

The other night it performed a system restore because it was unable to boot - it didn't even give me an option. There was only one thing to click; and that was "OK" as in - YES, VISTA, Please by all means restore this thing to when I first got it and uninstall all my software. :banana:

Direct X 10 won't be enough to get me to switch to Vista on my main machine. The ability to play Crysis does not outweigh the necessity of having a stable system.

[kuhla]

Sure XP fits all of my needs but it feels like I have been using it forever.... I want to try something new....

[Gunslinger]

I've been using Vista Ultimate 64 bit for a couple of months, I like it. The only draw back is SLI is a little sketchy yet, but when the drivers mature it will be ok. Can't wait to see some DX10 programs though.

[Cobalt]

Getting vista soon. Work gave me a copy from their group licence to use at home but my DVD drive has old, slightly corrupted, firmware so it won't run (1st gen drive ftw!). I'll be getting a new drive after easter so then I'll be enjoying X86 vista goodness. I'll only go 64 bit when support actually gets good.

[Rattle]

to hell with vista when a decent dx 10 game hits, vista will be installed on a small partition just to play it.

[Anemone]

Using Vista 64 since release. If you can manage the driver issue (plan ahead) it works fine, and I'm happy with it. Would be nice to have full EAX back, but honestly getting past EAX will help expand the competetiveness of the sound card market, so that's a good thing.

OC's well, and seems fairly stable. Some games crash. Drivers will improve. But overall I like it.

[Clint]

To hell with Vista...not as much for the crappy driver support or coz it's a major hogger as for the DRM/TC/and whatnot POS that it is.

'DX10 functionality' will be availiable for XP, in one way or another...thats what my crystal ball says.:D

[Open Book]

I LOVE VISTA for my websurfing, office 2007, email rig and media server.

NO WAY IN HELL will i put in on my gaming rig, 24/7 encoding system or any other hi productivity computer.

[XSAlliN]

Is this is trick question? :D

[alpha0ne]

If XP64bit is ever fully supported then thats my option with DX10 :clap:

[Growly]

I'd only change my O/S if it allowed me to be a more super, super user. That is if it had a powerful enough command line system for me to do what I want, when I want. I was quite disappointed when I heard that the new console was being withdrawn from Vista... quite disappointed indeed.

Until now the obvious answer has been *nix, but until you can run counter-strike / command and conquer in there I don't think I'll be replacing my desktop. (I use it on 70% of my servers.)

Heh, the first time I used Vista I set it back to the Windows 2000 theme. So win. I don't hate Vista though - it's just something else to try and become pro at :)

So yes, if XP had DX10 then I'd be there pretty quickly. Have to replace this barton though...

[robhalford88]

I use Server 2003 Enterprise Edition so that I can use more than 3 gb of ram. I would love to see DX 10 added, but if not, too bad. No vista for me. :D

[lawrywild]

Been using vista x64 since Jan30, all hardware works except my Belkin wireless coz belkin suck at releasing new drivers, but it's ok because I have the asus wi-fi ap solo which has drivers for x64 vista :)

However, still have an XP x86 home partition for playing CS:S ;)

[Kunaak]

lots of interesting views in here on the various OS's.
seems I am not the only one that wishs DX10 would not be 100% vista only.

[Jamesrt2004]

Wasn't Micro$oft gonna release DX9L which was basically DX10 wif a couple of things disabled or was that a rumor??

And The Other Option I would have XSoS FTW

[thecoldanddark]

Wasn't Micro$oft gonna release DX9L which was basically DX10 wif a couple of things disabled or was that a rumor??

And The Other Option I would have XSoS FTW

That was a rumor.

[Kurz]

DX9L is a DX9 version for Vista to be able to play DX9 games.

[lowfat]

I've said this in a few other threads, I've been using Ultimate 32 Bit now for the last month and I absolutely LOVE it. Works great with my hardware too, so yes, I'll be staying Vista.

E6300 @ 3.5, X1900GT Rev1, X-Fi XtremeMusic, P5B Deluxe WiFi/AP, etc.

my thoughts exactly. I had to switch back to XP for a while since X850XT crossfire isn't supported in Vista, but now that I no longer have those cards. Vista is back.

[Pyr0]

i dunno how you guys can go back to vista :shrug:
i won my copy but still don't use it at the moment.
i did install vista a couple of weeks ago, but reinstalled xp64 on a spare hdd to do some oc and mem testing.

after switching back to xp64, it just felt so much faster and more responsive, i removed the vista drive again

i may try it again when nvidia learns how to write decent vista sata and 8800 drivers (do not install mediashield from the 15.00 pack), when dx10 games start to trickle out and/or if performance can be improved a bit

[littleowl]

I want a copy of vista to play around with, but I am not too sure I would stick with it for very long.

A friend needed me to help him with his network and didn't tell me he had vista. I got a little bit of time to play with it and was disappointed but still want to see more of it!

[Asky]

IF XP got DX10 then i wouldnt switch to Vista :)
As someone already said i would use it for my websurfing, office 2007, emails and media BUT certainly not for games(not now atleast).

[thecoldanddark]

IF XP got DX10 then i wouldnt switch to Vista :)
As someone already said i would use it for my websurfing, office 2007, emails and media BUT certainly not for games(not now atleast).

It's deffinitely a better 24 hour rig. I don't have to worry about it because it plays all the games I play. I can even play d2 with it (which is on the non compatable list). It does perform less than xp, but in most of the games I play it's not enough of a difference to bother me.

[adamsleath]

If Windows XP Got Direct X 10, Would You Still Go Vista??

Who's asking the question?

If a ms vista salesman was asking, i'd say: yes.

If an xp or other version windows user asked me, i'd say: no.


it is yet another tactic used by ms to make $$ from a virtual monopoly imo...anyway directx10 apps arent even here yet.... i have a feeling that 4gig ram and quad cores will be mainstream by the time vista becomes the prevalent windows os...

any guesses as to when vista will become the most popular os? my guess is not soon. :lol:

p.s. 64 bit windows os's arent even the most prevalent yet :lol: x2

i'd have to say that whatever gives me the best in game graphics i' will go for...but i'm not looking forward to a buggy, fat vista os, that's for sure....but not having ever tried vista i cant really comment; i'm just going by hearsay at the moment. :/

[thecoldanddark]

Who's asking the question?

If a ms vista salesman was asking, i'd say: yes.

If an xp or other version windows user asked me, i'd say: no.


it is yet another tactic used by ms to make $$ from a virtual monopoly imo...anyway directx10 apps arent even here yet.... i have a feeling that 4gig ram and quad cores will be mainstream by the time vista becomes the prevalent windows os...

any guesses as to when vista will become the most popular os? my guess is not soon. :lol:

p.s. 64 bit windows os's arent even the most prevalent yet :lol: x2


Vista has more marketshare than you think. I suggest you look it up. As for the most popular os, that is xp, atm. Vista will have more marketshare than linux and mac os combined by the end of the year. It already has more marketshare in the consumer base than all of linux.

[adamsleath]

i was only talking about windows.

i'm sure vista market share will increase as new systems are sold packaged with it.

perhaps microsoft should decide what market share they want xp to have? they still have a commitment to xp support until 2010...unless they have changed that policy.

i still havent seen any real transition to 64 bit apps either. Closing the door on 32 bit apps might be a way forward if there is a compelling reason for programmers to do so.

Stop selling 32 bit xp; that's my opinion.

that'll nudge "people" to transition to 64 bit os/apps; and open the door for vista and future 64 bit market/products.

i thought of a new slogan for vista:

"do more with vista, but do it more slowly than what you already have"
:lol: :brick:

[mukmaster]

XP 32 with DX 10 I would never even think about vista

WHY DID M$ CALL IT VISTA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WRC]

maybe someone can force dx10 on xp, like hack it really bad :D

[alpha0ne]

"do more with vista, but do it more slowly than what you already have"


Hehehehe thats sig worthy :clap: :banana:

[Sparky]

XP won't get DX10 though, the subsystem has been redone and unless XP is reworked it won't work. That is what I've heard, or something like that. If so though this poll is pointless :p:

[eXceeded]

you'd have to pay me to go back to XP... Vista 64 is the future and that's all I need to know.

[[XC] riptide]

Put Vista on a raptor for a game or so only... that'll be it for now I'm afraid.!

[icon57]

i would keep xp...if it had dx10,
but i really have been wanting to try vista, but too many mixed reviews atm...mostly not good ones at that!

[Sentential]

If XP got anything resembling DX10 that would allow me to skip Vista entirely and wait for the next OS (which I plan on doing)

[screwtech02]

XP-64 with DX10, to heck with Vista.

I concur.....:cool:

[Andrew LB]

Man.... i'm getting total deja-vu reading this thread. Everyone always whimpers and whines every single time Micro$oft comes out with a new operating system.

Examples:

Dos -> Windows 3.11
Windows 3.11 -> Windows 95
Windows 95 -> Windows 2000

The biggest fuss I recall was over all the die hard windows 2000 guys who refused to touch Windows XP. It truly reminds me of how many people here are looking at Vista.

.... and i can't wait to see in 6 months to a year these same people praising how great it is just like what happened with the Win 2000 crowd when they finally embraced XP.

[Cuthalu]

Vista's UI is better, but it uses more resources which makes it less responsive as XP even using HE-computer, and it's a little more unstable. Other very annoying things are that it's dumbed down and you need to spend a lot of time changing user priviliges for different folders. x(

[triple_A]

I've used vista for about 2weeks, just to test it out, and i was pretty satisfied with it.. seemed to run quick and smooth and it ran any app/game i installed on it without a problem.

but then (after these two weeks) i booted into my XP partition and i found that XP feels much faster than vista.. because of this it's much more of a pleasure working with XP than vista.. dx10 will be the only advantage I see that vista has over XP.

i sure will try vista again on my new rig soon.. but i don't think it will make that much of a difference. when dx10 games arrive i might switch to vista, but untill then: XP FTW! :D

[MrToad]

Due to my job I've been exposed to Vista since August last year.

Every day I hate it a bit more.

Thousands of mainstream machines that were fit for purpose under WinXP have been reduced to a crawling, unresponsive, unproductive babbling crap.

Great for vendors because they can justify selling a C2D with 2GB where yesterday they were selling a Celeron-M with 512 MB, for people to do a bit of browsing, send some emails and write some stuff. You obviously need Aero Glass and office 2k7 (or w/e version they are now on, I've lost track thanks to OpenOffice) to do that.

Moreover when people have seen what kind of GUI and behaviour Vi$ta shows with the aforementioned, and until yesterday standard, mainstream laptop/entry level WS specs.

Reasons to switch to Vista:

1.- Aero Glass. Right. Ehmm... Ok. You want new and shiny.
2.- DX10 games. Uh? Who? Where?
3.- Playing HD content... Ehmmm... no chance. Sorry. Look for a chinese manufactured player that does actually what it says in the box and for 1/3 of the cost of the Vista license alone.

Reasons not to switch:

All the rest.

Unfortunately I've let sloth take over, but as with global warming, is never too late and failure is not an option. That's why I've now three laptops and two desktops running Fedora, and I intend to get at least good enough on it's administration to afford recommending it and help with everyday workstation use to those who want to make the switchover.

M$ got the last cent of my pocket when I purchased my corporate license of XP Pro 6 years ago. And once I can backup my intentions with actions I shall try to make Dell sell as many workstations with RedHat as opposite to Vi$ta as I possibly can without compromising my integrity and work ethics.

[alpha0ne]

^ great words MrToad and I agree 100%, I too am now using Linux and gaming with XP (home rolled) :clap:

[RangerXLT8]

The only reason I will be buying Vista is for Crysis.

[vertol]

These libraries allow the use of DirectX 10 games on platforms other than Microsoft Vista, and increase hardware compatibility even on Vista, by compiling Geometry Shaders down to native machine code for execution where hardware isn't capable of running it. No longer will you have to upgrade your OS and video card(s) to play the latest games.

something may be in the works .

http://www.majorgeeks.com/DirectX_10_Compatibility_Libraries_d5615.html

[Hard H20]

vertol,

Very nice avatar shot of the V-22. Did they ever get that thing operational? I remember seeing it during the testing phase in a hanger @ Pax River. I still would not want to be the one fastroping out of that thing. ;)

[ChaosMinionX]

vertol,

Very nice avatar shot of the V-22. Did they ever get that thing operational? I remember seeing it during the testing phase in a hanger @ Pax River. I still would not want to be the one fastroping out of that thing. ;)



They just sent some this month to Iraq, will also be its first combat implementation/deployment in the crafts lifetime.

[afireinside]

I have vista on my laptop and I hate it :( die!

[jbartlett323]

so my computer looks alot like vista... got cool themes... got office 2k7 (which would be good if i could find everything)... got windows defender... and i got all the drivers i need (well execpt that intel sli driver but thats a different topic)... why should i bother to switch to and os that is a complete resource hog and you can't find drivers for? why would anyone want that? not saying vista is total crap... just total crap right now and prolly for the next couple years... so i'll just sit back and wait for that really smart programmer out there to make DX10 work on xp32... or xp64 but that would require upgrade and i'm broke...

[Frostbyte]

The choice is not so much "either XP or Vista." I set two of my boxes to dual boot: XP32 and Vista Ultimate 64. Boot into whatever I want to play around with at the moment.

I hear a lot of FUD about Vista bloatware and slow performance, and I just do not see it. I have been running a box since Beta1 and am actually pretty impressed with what it does run on. To those who think you have to buy a whole new pretty box to get it to work, I have to call a bit of b$ on that. It has installed and run about as well as XP on most of my boxes.

AndrewLB is dead on target with his observation about the same whining and Microsoft bashing every time there is a major leap in the OS. Same arguments and concerns when Chicago (Beta Win95) showed you did not have to preinstall DOS to run a GUI. Same concerns with going from 2000 to XP.

The major leap is NOT Vista. The major leap is mainstreaming 64bit v. 32 bit OS. (I truly doubt you see another 32 bit OS from Microsoft. ) This is overdue, IMO. And while driver writing for Vista 32bit is still fairly loose, Vista 64 bit drivers have to conform to driver spec for certification by MS or else no-go. I think that is a dang good thing. I get tired of crappy drivers from lazy manufacturers.

The driver issue on Vista is not a Microsoft problem per se, but the manufacturers. C'mon...they didn't know that Vista was coming out and got "surprised" by a new OS all of a sudden? LOL...right.

There is a way provided to have your cake and eat it too. It is called DUAL BOOT. About 99% of the folks on this forum are smart enough to do that. MS is not going to go back and retrofit DX10 to XP. Completely a moot point. But, if your goal is to have DX10 capability and use XP for general gaming then you can do it. Just an extra partition on your drive, or buy another drive if you want it completely separate.

I am not a Vista fanboy, or MS fanboy, but neither am I going to listen to some of the folks who have not even tried to install it and sit there and complain. Here is what I consider valid arguments against running Vista:

1. If it ain't broke, don't fix it: XP DOES work well, and almost all hardware is supported by it. Is DX10 compelling right now? Not yet, but Crysis WILL force the issue for game manufacturers who don't want to be writing to old graphics standards. Obviously it makes more sense for the OS to come out prior to game releases. Saw the same thing when moving from DOS to Windows. remember running Wolfenstein or Doom in Windows?!:eek:

2. DRM is the biggest valid technical concern. I do NOT want any company screwing with what I purchase, or hamstringing my rig while I try to stream video. Also concerned with forced component upgrade of my screen. But, this is not Microsoft's brainchild. Why do they give a rat's backside if your movie download meets DRM requirements?! Look at the movie and recording industry for this little gem of "innovation." But, remember what happened when Sony tried to load all the rootkits? Big revolt against them. I think the same thing will happen when some dumb movie exec decides to enforce anything. But, this is a VALID concern.

3. Driver availability for chosen hardware: Semi valid. I was able to get just about everything I had working with Vista 64. Ironically one of the two things I could not get was my Microsoft Fingerprint Reader! :mad: Thanks MS...NOT. The manufacturers were slow on the draw to get these out. Kudos to some (like nVidia) for getting out cards to DX10 spec. :clap: Jeers to companies like Creative Labs who can't seem to find their arse with both hands. :slapass:

4. No "Rev 1" OS (the "Wait for the SP crowd): I think this is valid and safe for SysAdmins. No one wants to get burned on an installation that may have a major flaw that as of yet is undiscovered. The first SP release is when many consider the code "golden" enough to put in production. This forum is about being "bleeding edge" though, and running dual boot does not seem much of a risk.

-------------------
It is amusing and interesting to read through the different forums on this same topic. I see the Mac faithful vigorously defending the primacy of their platform :woot: . The Linux techno-junkies continue to preach from the moral highground of open source :clap: . I see the "Anyone but Microsoft" and technophobe crowd spewing their paranoia (and quoting pretty questionable resources as gospel :slap: . Hey, anyone can get published on the web. Look at me right now for god's sake.)
The Windows guys push their point of view as well here, but can be just as full of it as anyone else.

So...who's right?

Everyone except the paranoiacs.

The reason that everyone (sans Luddites) is correct in their choice is also the reason that PC's and software become obsolete...functionality.

Computers are not like other consumables in this sense. What makes a computer valuable is NOT the hardware, just as software is not valuable because of its physical existence. It is valuable for the functions it performs and the way it performs them. They become obsolete when they can't do everything we desire it to do. They don't rust out and have to be replaced, (like my first car or my water heater). Either new functionality presents itself that I desire or an entirely new use can be found using newer hardware that is not available on my computer. At that point it is obsolete. We have all had old boxes that we upgraded that all of a sudden lose any interest to us, when the week before we were typing away like mad on it.

No one has to upgrade in this day and time. No one has to choose Linux, or Windows, or Mac OS unless that is what you want TO RUN THE PROGRAMS YOU WANT TO RUN. You can find new systems from mainstream dealers that do not install Vista, but rather XP due to some of the issues mentioned, like driver availability (Hello?...Creative Labs?...Vista Drivers?...Hello?)The point is, all computers and OS' do probably 90% of what we want/need to do. Email, Word Processing, Internet Surfing, Audio/Visual. We make our choices around other factors like ease of use, future adaptability, specific interests.

I really like the elegance of the Macs, and if you are into heavy video and audio manipulation, it seems like the natural choice from a hardware and software perspective. Can you trick out a Vista PC to do this stuff? A lot of it maybe, but not all until the 3rd party driver situation gets worked out. Macs and OSX are a little weak when it comes to sheer breadth of software and accessories. But, I still think Apple retains some visionary execution because of their control of the hardware.

I like Linux and the concept of open source, though it has it's flaws, including some of the driver issues plaguing Vista. But, it is definitely one I am going to sit a newbie in front of. Some of the Linux arcana is what makes it cool to us techheads; kind of like knowing hexedecimal. If implemented well, it is very solid and stable.

I like Windows, and Vista has really been running solid on my box. It does everything I want it to and I am used to the interface now. There are some very cool features (with some nods to the Mac for getting it right earlier than MS)that make it a real pleasure to use. It seems more stable than XP, and a bit more secure. But, Office 2007 is the really valuable release from Microsoft right now (and it does run on XP.) Because bottom line, I am not spending my time editing the registry, or tweaking base OS features. I am sending email. I am typing up proposals and using spreadsheets. I am doing a bit of audio/visual work, but nothing heavy. I am surfing the net. I am doing my taxes. I am gaming a bit. In other words, I am doing what probably most people do most of the time, and I personally like Windows, warts and all. I could do it on a Mac easily enough, and have some Unix familiarity so that running Lindows would be an option if I wanted to. Regardless of what I chose, I am sure it would be fine.

So, if you hate Vista, then go ahead and go Mac or Linux. Problem Solved. If you like XP and are concerned with Vista compatability, do your homework to make sure your fears are founded it reality, and just wait a bit until SP1 or patches or drivers or whatever it is comes out and is stable. Just wait a bit. We always have to wait a bit on a new OS.


Now, finally, to all the M$ mistyping, BillG hating, Microsoft loathing, big-brother watching my every move believing, Skull-and-Bones Microsoft controlling the industry types out there...

Please don't come near my house and family or I will have you arrested. You scare me. ;)

Seriously, I have quite a few business contacts at Microsoft (no, not just blowing smoke to puff myself up). They are pretty good people. They don't get out enough (combination of Seattle rain and lack of sex appeal). They go to work, do their jobs, provide for their family, and look forward to the weekend to do what they REALLY want. They don't bite the heads off bats, or sit around peeking at your data through some mythical back door to see if you are file sharing. (Honestly, do you think you are THAT interesting? I KNOW I am boring!! Feel free to look Microsoft...enjoy my surfing Amazon for deals on diapers for my newborn.)

The execs there, SteveB and his minions may try to force the industry to do the bidding, but "they aren't the boss of everyone" as my 6 year old might say three seconds prior to a spanking. They do play hard to get Microsoft on every PC. What do you expect them to do? I mean, even a paranoiac has to concede that is expected behavior for a business anywhere. Nasty practices should be slapped down (and have been, much to Microsoft's chagrin).

They don't secretly control the music industry. They don't have mind control. They don't find out ways to poison their product so you buy more (that is the cigarette industry). They do want to make money, at times putting cost before quality. They do try to leverage their install base to get Vista on PC boxes (Though Dell sells Linux servers, which thoroughly chafes Ballmer I am sure). But, the manufacturers WANTED Vista. Remember the torpedo and resulting firestorm when MS delayed Vista until after the Christmas season? Do you think that was a great marketing move for Microsoft? YIKES!!!

Bottom line: Feel free to provide technical and anecdotal FACTS on the forums, but spouting the "Microsoft is the Corporate Antichrist" drivel is more worn out than a Grateful Dead album at a head shop. Move on to hating someone else. I suggest child abusers, which REALLY ticks me off. But there is room on the hate bandwagon to direct your mental lasers at racists, fanatical religious leaders, genocidal dictatorships, and D!ck Cheney.

--------------------

Okay, I PROMISE never to type that long a rant again for a fairly simple question from the OP. ;)

[MrToad]

The choice is not so much "either XP or Vista." I set two of my boxes to dual boot: XP32 and Vista Ultimate 64. Boot into whatever I want to play around with at the moment.

It is either or if you are buying a new computer. Unless you have a XP license that qualifies for transference. Bear in mind that if your XP license is OEM is not transferable. And companies like Dell are telling customers that's either Vista or nothing. Spending money on an license to dual boot with an OS that you didn't ask for (whether you need it or not is irrelevant, unless is given to you FOC) is not a concept easy to sell to a customer on a budget without walking that line that divides work ethics and being a crook.


I hear a lot of FUD about Vista bloatware and slow performance, and I just do not see it. I have been running a box since Beta1 and am actually pretty impressed with what it does run on. To those who think you have to buy a whole new pretty box to get it to work, I have to call a bit of b$ on that. It has installed and run about as well as XP on most of my boxes.


On average 30 laptops and 10 desktops pass through my hands every day. Every single budget computer (3/4 or the machine base out there, on average 900 inspections a month to backup my statements, just in case it sounds like urban legend) with Vista "preimposed" that I've handled has miserably failed to perform day to day tasks to an acceptable level of speed and responsiveness, and showed an interface no more or less appealing than win2k. Which is fair enough, I like the win2k interface, but that's not what "new and shiny" is about... or is it?. .


AndrewLB is dead on target with his observation about the same whining and Microsoft bashing every time there is a major leap in the OS. Same arguments and concerns when Chicago (Beta Win95) showed you did not have to preinstall DOS to run a GUI. Same concerns with going from 2000 to XP.

The average user is wary of change. So is the average sysadmin. I think is a fair concern. And when change is not a choice but an imposition it becomes short of being funny. I had more than 90 customers this month very unhappy because the machines they got in exchange for their damaged ones had Vista, and either showed underwhelming performance, or the customer was finding difficult to get used to the new OS's behaviour (there's people in their 60s and 70s out there using computers you know? and not all of them are willing to undergo a forced and sudden skill recycle just because Vista is "so now"), or fitting the machines in an existing deployment was proving an administrative nightmare.

The worrying thing is, those 90 represent 45% of the people that received computers with Vista, which amounted for about 20% of last month's replacements. For now we can manage because firms like Toshiba, Fujitsu / Siemens, Sony and others still can supply us with non-Vista equipment, but as time goes by things are only going to get worse.

Shy of overloading the customer services colleagues, I will direct the customers to this thread so they are enlightened by the vision of the future and they can take a rest from all their burdens.


The major leap is NOT Vista. The major leap is mainstreaming 64bit v. 32 bit OS. (I truly doubt you see another 32 bit OS from Microsoft. ) This is overdue, IMO.

And can you tell me what does this have to do with supplying Celeron-Ms with 512 MB of RAM with Vista Home 32 bit preinstalled? Or Pentium-Ms? Because they account for a huge part of the machines deployed out there.


And while driver writing for Vista 32bit is still fairly loose, Vista 64 bit drivers have to conform to driver spec for certification by MS or else no-go. I think that is a dang good thing. I get tired of crappy drivers from lazy manufacturers.

I won't answer this point until you've taken the time to read through and understood what Microsoft demands from the hardware suppliers to certify compliance. If after having thought through it's implications you still think is the way to go, we might have something to discuss. Until then, is pointless.


The driver issue on Vista is not a Microsoft problem per se, but the manufacturers. C'mon...they didn't know that Vista was coming out and got "surprised" by a new OS all of a sudden? LOL...right.

Read above


There is a way provided to have your cake and eat it too. It is called DUAL BOOT. About 99% of the folks on this forum are smart enough to do that. MS is not going to go back and retrofit DX10 to XP. Completely a moot point. But, if your goal is to have DX10 capability and use XP for general gaming then you can do it. Just an extra partition on your drive, or buy another drive if you want it completely separate.

Read the first point.


I am not a Vista fanboy, or MS fanboy, but neither am I going to listen to some of the folks who have not even tried to install it and sit there and complain.

I don't hate Microsoft as an entity neither it's employees, I don't hate Bill Gates, but I do hate Vista. If you still don't understand why, I can't explain it any better.


Here is what I consider valid arguments against running Vista:

1. If it ain't broke, don't fix it: XP DOES work well, and almost all hardware is supported by it. Is DX10 compelling right now? Not yet, but Crysis WILL force the issue for game manufacturers who don't want to be writing to old graphics standards. Obviously it makes more sense for the OS to come out prior to game releases. Saw the same thing when moving from DOS to Windows. remember running Wolfenstein or Doom in Windows?!:eek:

I'm sure I will be able to get this point through tomorrow, when the first retired person who uses his computer to write short stories, send emails to distant relatives and read the news calls me unhappy about his/her equipment (miss)behaving.


2. DRM is the biggest valid technical concern. I do NOT want any company screwing with what I purchase, or hamstringing my rig while I try to stream video. Also concerned with forced component upgrade of my screen. But, this is not Microsoft's brainchild. Why do they give a rat's backside if your movie download meets DRM requirements?! Look at the movie and recording industry for this little gem of "innovation." But, remember what happened when Sony tried to load all the rootkits? Big revolt against them. I think the same thing will happen when some dumb movie exec decides to enforce anything. But, this is a VALID concern.

No much to argue. The only thing I'm not buying is that this is not Microsoft's brainchild. It is, to it's entire extent and till the last of it's consequences. They coded it, embedded it on the OS, and built it's structure around it.


3. Driver availability for chosen hardware: Semi valid. I was able to get just about everything I had working with Vista 64. Ironically one of the two things I could not get was my Microsoft Fingerprint Reader! :mad: Thanks MS...NOT. The manufacturers were slow on the draw to get these out. Kudos to some (like nVidia) for getting out cards to DX10 spec. :clap: Jeers to companies like Creative Labs who can't seem to find their arse with both hands. :slapass:

Again, go through Microsoft's demands to get a bit of insight. BTW, Creative... LOL.


4. No "Rev 1" OS (the "Wait for the SP crowd): I think this is valid and safe for SysAdmins. No one wants to get burned on an installation that may have a major flaw that as of yet is undiscovered. The first SP release is when many consider the code "golden" enough to put in production. This forum is about being "bleeding edge" though, and running dual boot does not seem much of a risk.

Yet Vista is getting pushed into some deployments. Is either that or buy XP licenses for the replaced machines, and as I said above, that's a pill that gets hard to make the customers swallow.

The rest of the post is mostly your personal opinion on the matter, spiced with anecdotal information here and there, and I don't see a reason to comment it. You are entitled to it as everyone else is. Besides, I'm not the inquisition and is not my intention to torture your until you scream that you were wrong.

The only part I couldn't help but bite the bait was this:


Seriously, I have quite a few business contacts at Microsoft (no, not just blowing smoke to puff myself up). They are pretty good people. They don't get out enough (combination of Seattle rain and lack of sex appeal). They go to work, do their jobs, provide for their family, and look forward to the weekend to do what they REALLY want. They don't bite the heads off bats, or sit around peeking at your data through some mythical back door to see if you are file sharing. (Honestly, do you think you are THAT interesting? I KNOW I am boring!! Feel free to look Microsoft...enjoy my surfing Amazon for deals on diapers for my newborn.)

Do you think that the workers that built Dachau were some breed of monsters? or the plumbers that fitted Auschwitz went back to their life of rape/paedophilia/murder after work? They also were no more monsters than the average human being.

I don't recall threatening those aforementioned employees, or the employer itself at any point. The only thing that could be interpreted as such is my firm intention cut their presence as much as possible where I see it goes in the best interest of my customers, which are not Microsoft employees or shareholders, and I don't see why should they bear the burden of it's new OS.

[phelan1777]

It is either or if you are buying a new computer. Unless you have a XP license that qualifies for transference. Bear in mind that if your XP license is OEM is not transferable. And companies like Dell are telling customers that's either Vista or nothing. Spending money on an license to dual boot with an OS that you didn't ask for (whether you need it or not is irrelevant, unless is given to you FOC) is not a concept easy to sell to a customer on a budget without walking that line that divides work ethics and being a crook.


Apparently you have not looked at the DELL site lately, you can still get machines with XP, though they actually are charging a little more in some cases, then getting Vista included in the price.

I for one work for a company that buys DELL PCs I work on them every day, and infact am writing this on a NEW DELL PC that came with XP, granted we have a corp image, that is based off of XP, that as DELL drivers built into it.

So DELL is NOT completely sold on DELL w/ Vista combination, but they will weed it out eventually.

[MrToad]

You are in the US, I'm in the UK.

Most of the customers I deal with are either private customer or small companies which don't qualify for corporate licenses.

If Dell is supplying XP machines in these scenarios then our liaison is lying to us.

Edit: I'd like confirmation of what Phelan says, because in the last two months I've received 10 years worth of grief. If it has been for some agent's convenience and incentives I might turn murderous.

[adamsleath]

wee; imo continued sales of xp will make up for slow uptake of vista for ms...so what's all the fuss?

most people use windows don't they?

let ms sort out some of the vista bugs...patience grasshoppers.

vista will be on the majority of windows pc's sooner or later.

[phelan1777]

You are in the US, I'm in the UK.

Most of the customers I deal with are either private customer or small companies which don't qualify for corporate licenses.

If Dell is supplying XP machines in these scenarios then our liaison is lying to us.

Edit: I'd like confirmation of what Phelan says, because in the last two months I've received 10 years worth of grief. If it has been for some agent's convenience and incentives I might turn murderous.

These are for small business, home office.
Here take a look.

Dell.com
(http://www.dell.com/content/products/results.aspx/workstations?c=us&cs=04&dt=List&l=en&s=bsd)

[OcX]

Is this is trick question? :D

It is.

If Windows XP Got DirectX10, there is no reason to get Vista.

[MrToad]

These are for small business, home office.
Here take a look.

Dell.com
(http://www.dell.com/content/products/results.aspx/workstations?c=us&cs=04&dt=List&l=en&s=bsd)

Thanks Phelan.

I'll have a word today to see what kind of explanation they come up with.

If it's not satisfactory I might recommend stopping Dell purchases.

[Frostbyte]

Thanks Phelan.

I'll have a word today to see what kind of explanation they come up with.

If it's not satisfactory I might recommend stopping Dell purchases.

MrToad, it may not be accurate to paint everyone as wearing a white hat or a black hat (notice I did not say a RedHat! ;) )

The news that Dell is going back to offering XP is fairly recent, and I would suspect that the front line salespeople were not let in on that fact so that it could be kept on the qt for as long as possible and not leak to the press. Here is a link to an article dated just last week.

http://http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/070420/20vista.htm

It is probably not the case that your rep is trying to screw you for an incentive. They probably did not find out until just recently (like the day of the announcement I would bet!)

You and I have different opinions and perspectives, which is what it is all about. You think you are being forced and coerced. I do not. You have your anecdotal evidence, and so do I. What you consider coercion is not what I consider. With the multitudinous OS choices and platforms, you are not stuck with anything unless YOU choose it. We will disagree on that and it is proably irreconcilable.

But, I do want you to know that I really appreciate the civility and well thought out nature of your arguments. Even when in disagreement, it is refreshing to be able to argue a point without getting consumed in personal attack. I honestly hope that things get better for you and your clients.

Well, back to the original question. I will go out on a limb and say that I think MrToad is a "Yes" on going DX10 in XP if possible! I will stay dual boot as my personal "Best option."

[Kaze06]

Vista is bloated, runs worse than XP, and has terrible driver issues, hardware support and game support. I'd rather go with XP for the reassurance than wait and wonder when/if Vista's bugs will ever be worked out.

[MrToad]

MrToad, it may not be accurate to paint everyone as wearing a white hat or a black hat (notice I did not say a RedHat! ;) )

The news that Dell is going back to offering XP is fairly recent, and I would suspect that the front line salespeople were not let in on that fact so that it could be kept on the qt for as long as possible and not leak to the press. Here is a link to an article dated just last week.

http://http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/070420/20vista.htm

It is probably not the case that your rep is trying to screw you for an incentive. They probably did not find out until just recently (like the day of the announcement I would bet!)

For what it counts, you were right :D

I'm perfectly satisfied after the "chat" with our rep. I don't think there's evidence of malpractice, at least from his part. Whether this applies to Dell as a whole or not, it depends on how much you like conspiracy theories.

In a nutshell, what you can read in the article you quoted, with some additions and subtractions, is what we heard yesterday.

Sometimes (I don't know if this translates well into English) "The trees don't let me see the forest".


You and I have different opinions and perspectives, which is what it is all about. You think you are being forced and coerced. I do not. You have your anecdotal evidence, and so do I. What you consider coercion is not what I consider. With the multitudinous OS choices and platforms, you are not stuck with anything unless YOU choose it. We will disagree on that and it is proably irreconcilable.

Shy of bearing the banner of truth, and smiting the unbeliever with it, I find agreeing to disagree much more civilized :)


But, I do want you to know that I really appreciate the civility and well thought out nature of your arguments. Even when in disagreement, it is refreshing to be able to argue a point without getting consumed in personal attack. I honestly hope that things get better for you and your clients.

As the average person I was just trying to explain my position.

This comes straight from the department of the bloody obvious (I have good contacts there): Attacking you personally (hmmm... wait a minute, on which grounds?) or posting unfounded inflammatory comments on the subject is NOT going to work. It will only make whoever had a legitimate interest on the subject press the "/ignore [common_troll]" button.


Well, back to the original question. I will go out on a limb and say that I think MrToad is a "Yes" on going DX10 in XP if possible! I will stay dual boot as my personal "Best option."

I went for the "Die Vista Die!" option, but I would like to give a bit of background on the subject, just in case there's someone still awake.

I'm not a fan of revolutions.

If ensuring early adoptions and/or exposure to the alternatives to M$'s OS (for instance, school computers, where our friends from Redmond, who are many things but not daft have their bases covered) thus giving people a real choice when it comes to how they want to use their computers (we as humans, except a few remarkable exceptions, as the water which is the main component found in our bodies, tend to follow the path of minimum resistance, which atm, IMHO, is Microsoft), involves some bloody crusade whose outcome is going to be a new virtual India and Pakistan, call me weakling if you wish to, but I'm not up for it.

[adamsleath]

1. ive decied to get the business version of vista when i do upgrade...i can easily get multimedia/media centre type stuff when/if i need it. And i'm still trying to decide whether to get the 64 bit one...

2. also looking at poll currently 27% say die vista die!! :ROTF:

and 11% say :
XP's feeling kinda old, I want to try something new.

[phelan1777]

Sometimes (I don't know if this translates well into English) "The trees don't let me see the forest".

I don't remember exactly how I have heard it, but its similar to what you wrote.

About, Seeing the forest for the trees, or the trees for the forest......I am sure one of the ole wise men that resides here, will come along and correct the posting cause us "youngins" dunnno no better :p:

[adamsleath]

..can't see the forest for the trees...

so i've heard.

[MrToad]

..can't see the forest for the trees...

so i've heard.

I did my homework ^^

"Can't see the wood for the trees"

[phelan1777]

Make like a tree and leave? :lol:

[MrToad]

Make like a tree and leave? :lol:

:ROTF:

[Sailindawg]

Interesting development (http://news.com.com/Dell+brings+back+XP+on+home+systems/2100-1046_3-6177619.html?tag=nefd.top). Who knows what it really means, but it's interesting to note that consumer demand in this market segment is not clamoring for VISTA. I think it would be very cool if Dx10 was available for XP. However, I hope that besides providing hardware support, it would run games with a significant performance boost within XP.

[adamsleath]

I did my homework ^^

"Can't see the wood for the trees"


i've heard both; homework boy.

http://www.bartleby.com/59/4/cantseethefo.html - "cant see the forest for the trees"

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/5/messages/1529.html -"cant see the woods for the trees"

same expression.

[TouGe]

I've been running Vista Ultimate for a little over a month now and I don't see the problems that people are mentioning here. I like Vista so much now that I migrated everything from my Xp installation and no longer Dual Boot.

I've had zero problems playing games like CoH, ArmA, CoD2, or Half-Life2; no blue screens, lock-ups, or video problems.
I can play DVD's fine using WinDVD8 w/o experiencing any playback issues on my 27" WS.
W/in a few weeks CoH will have their DX10 patch out which will further enhance my playing experience and I am sure other vendors will follow. The only game I have not attempted to play on Vista is STALKER but that game had bugs on Xp to begin with so I hold little hope for it on Vista at the momemt.
As for Vista being a resource hog, I don't see it. Maybe on lower end systems this is true but I've found Vista to run much more smooth than Xp. Maybe there is a difference in FPS but nothing you're going to notice, unless your video card is outdated or your using a weaker card on a large WS. I mean, come on, can you tell the difference between 100FPS and 92FPS?

This is just my opinion, so don't flame me.

Everytime something new comes out there is always a group of people that shy away from it because they are used to or happy with what they are currently using (or they just can't afford the upgrade). So, for some reason, they bash it.
The major flaws with Vista are not problems with Vista its problems with hardware manufacurers and their half-baked drivers.

[Frostbyte]

There are problems, but I agree that 4/5ths of them are driver issues. It is birth pangs.