NEW RACE for the LOWEST NUMBER

[wdrzal]

As you guys know I'm not a big fan of using deep vacuums and dangerous flammable gases to produce temps that don't hold the needed load.

It seems since the release of dual and quad core ,current units just aren't cutting it as holding the load, A new modified design is needed, this can be part of the budget competition or a new one ,you guys decide.

But first let me give you guys a analogy to another profession, flying a aircraft.

first a pilot learns the basics and then learns to Take off, then learns to fly the aircraft,then land it.

Next you move on to leaving point A and finding point B, Then you learn to find the fastest route between point A & B, finally a "Great pilot" will by pay careful attention to whats called winds aloft ,that are available to pilots at different altitudes and wind directions. There may be a big difference in as little as several thousand feet or less, by paying careful attention at what altitude you fly you can save tremendous amounts of fuel, Now relate this to ENERGY consumption as we now change back to Single stage design.

I propose a contest to hold the wattage 250 or what wattage you guys decide on ,the new design @ -40c/F obtainable by most refrigerants.

Now the challange...... we now have a set wattage and set temperature too tune for,:fact:

So your challenge is like that great pilot to reach these predetermined numbers using the lowest amount of ENERGY possible. Instead of over powered or too large of compressors the winner of this competition will be like the Great pilot who watches his efficiency and builds & tunes to perfection.

The winner will be who can maintain the predetermined wattage & temperature using the LEAST amount of POWER over a 2 hour average. (Total Watts) this includes compressor and condenser fan or fans or any other electrical device that contributes to the system.

The Race is to the most efficient use of electricity To reach goal.:woot:


ALL builds will be limited to a single gas: explaination is in post 53


no matter if you have a 1/2 hp or 1/4 hp you can detune to a lower hp just using enough energy to hold that wattage & temperature @ a steady state for 2 hours.It is not only compressor choice, but complete system choices from condenser to fan hp to gas to metering tube length, lets limit this to capillary tube .that way the declared winner must reveal all numbers and to confirm it should be easily reproduced.

This will simply be determined by either using a watt meter or amp meter and measuring volts then converted to watts. so no matter what voltage your country uses this will be fair.

1 measure will be made every ten minutes,6 per hour or 12 total for the 2 hours and divide by 12 for average then by 2 for wattage for a "single hour". this is for those measuring amps and volts to get a fair number over the range of the test. you must also be able to reproduce the run.

the lowest total wattage to maintain a 250 watt load @ -40C/F for 2 hours will be declared the Extreme Systems ultimate tuner/builder for efficient single stage units..:toast: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


This is a competition that test your understanding of the entire refrigeration loop and the compressors will be relatively small & if tuned correctly the system will be very efficient and low cost to build. Also I believe this is what most of the guys are looking for . A 24/7 rig with low energy costs. The lowest may sky rocket you to a order book full if you can also build the cosmetic portion most consumers want,but this not a requirement for this competition,build fan shrouds or encloses out of card board looks have no meaning but built correctly will help with the lowest wattage usage.

This is my first posting of this idea,I did not talk to mods or owners yet,so if there is a problem feel free to contact me.

Good Luck to those who Accept this {Challenge} :)

[Trouffman]

Woooaa very interesting new challenge :D This will slow the run to rotary and big compressors... !

[sacha35]

Nice one Wdrzal, could you extend this Competition not only for the lowest total wattage to maintain a 250 watt load @ -40C/F, but the best laid out and safest unit made, this includes refrigeration and electrical work, as we don’t want to see some quick unsafe units being made.

[Brettbeck]

Seems a really good idea Walt, like you said that is what most builders are looking for at the moment. No chance of me entering though... I don't have the time/money and I have really important exams approching which are more important!

[wdrzal]

Nice one Wdrzal, could you extend this Competition not only for the lowest total wattage to maintain a 250 watt load @ -40C/F, but the best laid out and safest unit made, this includes refrigeration and electrical work, as we don’t want to see some quick unsafe units being made.

Safety is always a requirement,No exceptions, but no points for appearance,except for your personal satisfaction of a good job. layout will help win contest

This is solely a technical competition.

[Clemmaster]

That would be great but you must devide the competition in 2 sections : 110v and 220v as the power consumption isn't the same between them 2 for the same cooling capacity and environmental conditions...

[n00b 0f l337]

^^ That is true. Luckily once I get back next week, I'm working on nearly such a unit. Since this is also Extreme Systems, not only should we hit the lowest power consumption, how about extra points for even colder.
I think we should only have to reveal capillary lengths and compressor specs though.

[Barnsley-Bill]

Great idea Walt, allthough im out as ive yet to make a start on my first ss unit hopefully next week when evrythings ready and ive time off work but i.ll sure keep an eye out on this thread.

[n00b 0f l337]

This should be a good competition. Nowlets see if my 1/3hp copelands enough... ;)
Maybe we should do, your wattage used by compressor + anything else = your score. Then each degree centigrade below that -40F/-40C is worth taking two watts off your score.

[n00b 0f l337]

And Wdrzal, dont know if you realize this, but -40C @ 250watts is not so easy. Sure a rotary makes it a bit easier, but its quite a bit of trouble getting -40C @ 200 watts with r402a and a nl11f.

[wdrzal]

Its just a idea ................but its already clear you guys don't understand energy..........thermodynamic or electrical.Its still energy. I sure you guys will learn a lot on this challenge,more than in the direction most ofyou are heading


voltages don't matter ,a watt is a watt,any unit of energy can be converted to any other unit. Energy is mutually convertible, we can measure in calories then eat them for energy if we want ;) true. Of course we can't eat electrical energy,but we can take light energy and grow food we can consume.we usually call those calories.

amps X volts = watts ......this is if the load is pure resistance like a light bulb. if their is a inductive load this changes every so slightly, there is a "power factor" to be multiplied by. This number is small and changes little and since all will be using compressors(which all use inductive motors) the Field remains even.

[wdrzal]

And Wdrzal, dont know if you realize this, but -40C @ 250watts is not so easy. Sure a rotary makes it a bit easier, but its quite a bit of trouble getting -40C @ 200 watts with r402a and a nl11f.

then make it-35C or -30C if you want to make it easy. I just chose -40C/F is its where metric meets imperial, they are the same temperature.

[wdrzal]

noob should the rules be for you or what consumers want??????????,something that will cool a quad core very respectable temps and lowest operating cost. A good single stage 24/7 machine for a quad core.

I don't know what the output of a quad core is but the should be the wattage chosen.


when I was asked to build a 20x40 foot blast freezer to maintain -40F inside year round,thats what the customer got,if they what this wedding hall cooled to 70F with 500 people when its 100f outside,thats what they get. In the real world you design to meet specifications,not post specification to your design.

I think this challenge will put you guys back on track where you can debate the basics & learn basic laws of physics in a safe way . Before you can design anything you MUST know them,what matters and what doesn't,what helps and what hurts.

And as all customers one of there first question is: "what is the operating costs" and efficiency is what engineers strive for

[Moc]

250W@-40°C sounds quite good for me.... a high clocked Quad pulls out around 300W-350W heat I read here. 350W@-30°C would also be realistic to do.

[n00b 0f l337]

Bout 265-275 is what we've seen.
Nice judgement Lord Wdrzal. There should be a reward though In colder temperatures. ITs a competition so you need to take into account all variables.
If I have happened to be designing for something just as you have posted, why can I not say that I have.

[wdrzal]

250W@-40°C sounds quite good for me.... a high clocked Quad pulls out around 300W-350W heat I read here. 350W@-30°C would also be realistic to do.

I only made those numbers up I posted, the guys who are building rigs to hold there load should be able to jump between actual cpu and load tester to determine close power usage. and you guys the consumers decide what you want.
I don't follow the mobo designers but those here who design or follow closely their are must be test points on the board to measure power supplied to CPU.

Open a dialog between builder and consumers and they should be building what you want, Not you accepting what they build.

[wdrzal]

Like I said noob the challenge is for efficiency not temperature or wattage, those need to be agreed upon before competition starts also ambient room temperature & other variables depending on how picky you want to be,but most guys don't have instruments to measure all climate variables. You design to meet those specs. if your too cold give up those degrees for a better efficiency Thats how it works in the real world or should we all live in LORD NOOBS world. :rolleyes:

[[XC] gomeler]

Curious, will this be a stickied competition of sorts or is this just a request that we start taking power consumption into mind when building units? 250 watts @ -40 celsius will be quite the challenge, I don't know if a singlestage could do it but I'm sure an autocascade could be tuned to do these temps @ this load. I'm thinking a 1/3-1/2HP compressor will be ideal to move enough mass to keep 250 watts cold, if someone can get their efficiency high enough that they only consume 300 watts moving those 250 then I'd say that's an accomplishment. Interesting idea, once I get the electricals for my 1/3HP Embraco setup then I'll be building a better autocascade that'll fit these requirements almost exactly.

[n00b 0f l337]

Never learned about what your saying wdrzal, but I guess your probably right. How can you trade off temperature for higher efficiency? Overcharge to cool the compressor more?

[wdrzal]

Never learned about what your saying wdrzal, but I guess your probably right. How can you trade off temperature for higher efficiency? Overcharge to cool the compressor more?

or a lower discharge pressure is one way to decrease amp draw.;) That all I,m saying you guys got to figure the rest out. :stick:

Study Hard LOL:p:

[n00b 0f l337]

Ah okay. But customers not only want lower power draw, they want lower temperatures. I think your idea for the contest is very good, but should incorporate all elements of the uses of these systems.

[[XC] gomeler]

Just make it easier for the compressor to do it's job and it'll happily consume less power. Less mass flowing through the system will also drop powerconsumption but will impact your performance. It's all a matter of tuning, proper cap-tube length and diameter, and utilizing the most efficient means of getting the job done. A large condenser + SLHX will be a requirement, proper compressor cooling will also need to be taken into account as we'd be pushing these things very hard. Judging from the powerconsumption differences between my autocascade and singlestage which were build around identical compressors I'd safely say a "low-temp" autocascade will be the most efficient way to get this done. I'm thinking r600a to max out the condenser and help keep the compressor happy and then either jump into a mid-range gas that boils around -50 to -60 celsius and tune accordingly or try and stretch r290/r22 to handle those loads at those temperatures. I guess you could also do r600a/r290/r1150 and tune for a "high" suction pressure so that you get enough massflow to dissipate the 250 watts and the r1150 isn't boiling off at -50 to -60 celsius or lower. I imagine it could be done rather nicely and it would be a rather free-flowing system, these are all just ideas though, wouldn't know how efficient they are until numbers were crunched or a prototype was built.

[n00b 0f l337]

Your pressures would be insane attempting to condense r1150 with suction pressures that high. They effect the temperatures of the propane as well.

[TopherTony]

well should we put a hp cap on this? I guess that might not matter as larger compressors use more E anyways. Is there a deadline to this? or just an ongoing contest?

[n00b 0f l337]

I'm going to PM Ron about cancelling the ghetto competition (since no ones doing it) and maybe transfer prizes to this?
Ron ygpm in a few.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Hehe I can give you guys a tip learn more about your condensers, you all pay WAY to much attention to the evap yet neglect the most important part! The condenser. And there is tricks you can do as well by using a pressur or temp modulated fans to control head pressur but you must first do some thing with the condencer, this I will not say you must learn it! I have left info out of here so you must read up to get the whole picture.

[wdrzal]

I believe you need a lot of input on quad core wattage,get some answers from the master over clockers to power output,are schematics of mobos available that measurements of power supplied to CPU can be measured , all the guys in manufacturing of memory or video cards or mobo's will have the info required as their engineers will know the test points on the mobo's if they are not public, Like I said I don't or haven't followed this industry hardly at all.

It's time for the Electronic engineers who design this stuff to teach and lend a hand also, they owe that to those who buy their products.

the very first thing that needs to be know is thermal heat load conducted thru the heat spreader . or pick a number real close as everyone isn't going to have a quad core to test with for actual load, every one will have to build a load simulator.

Then you guys need to decide on a design evaporator temperature under Full CPU load.And where and how this measurment will be made.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

gomeler;2099954']Just make it easier for the compressor to do it's job and it'll happily consume less power. Less mass flowing through the system will also drop powerconsumption but will impact your performance.

It's all a matter of tuning, proper cap-tube length and diameter, and utilizing the most efficient means of getting the job done. A large condenser + SLHX will be a requirement, proper compressor cooling will also need to be taken into account as we'd be pushing these things very hard. Judging from the powerconsumption differences between my autocascade and singlestage which were build around identical compressors I'd safely say a "low-temp" autocascade will be the most efficient way to get this done. I'm thinking r600a to max out the condenser and help keep the compressor happy and then either jump into a mid-range gas that boils around -50 to -60 celsius and tune accordingly or try and stretch r290/r22 to handle those loads at those temperatures. I guess you could also do r600a/r290/r1150 and tune for a "high" suction pressure so that you get enough massflow to dissipate the 250 watts and the r1150 isn't boiling off at -50 to -60 celsius or lower. I imagine it could be done rather nicely and it would be a rather free-flowing system, these are all just ideas though, wouldn't know how efficient they are until numbers were crunched or a prototype was built.

An SLHX is not a magic bullet to cure all, it acts more as an unloader with the benefit of sub cooling, how ever it implements its own load as super heat. SLHXs can net an increase but only in very certain situations.

[martinjon666]

But i got my budget done and all i have to do is post the pics
My son was born the on the 28th so i haven had a chance to do that yet but i will as soon as we can get away from the hospital.

LOL i figured it would be an easy win if no one else got theirs done :D

[[XC] gomeler]

An SLHX is not a magic bullet to cure all, it acts more as an unloader with the benefit of sub cooling, how ever it implements its own load as super heat. SLHXs can net an increase but only in very certain situations.

I agree, they aren't a magic bullet to fix all our problems but from the reading I have done all the material suggests that they are one way to increase efficiency while adding additional load to the system. The Barnes and Nobles on campus didn't have the book that Walt reccommended, sucks when you campus teaches mainly theory and not much practical knowledge. Now I'll just be waiting to see how this thing comes around. I don't think there should be HP restrictions as we are measuring the amount of power pulled from the socket so it shouldn't matter if we place limits.

[Unknown_road]

nice one walt. Especially since my quad core ready cooler was finished months ago :D

[Clemmaster]

I've just one question : are 2 stages mono gas systems alowed? Such as 2 compressors in serial ?

[star882]

Has anyone thought about using a VFD? I think it can greatly increase efficiency at part load.

[epion2985]

There is only one thing to be worked on here imho. We can't control compressor volumetric efficiency etc nor other specs, we can't engineer new refrigerants. Everyone plays with charge to get best results already. Subcooling is already employed.

The problem, that was beaten to death in many other related threads, is the evap being the bottle neck. I think what the effort time and money should be going in to is the evap design as it has run out of capacity. Maybe I am wrong, but thats the impression I have after reading these threads.

[kayl]

Bout 265-275 is what we've seen.
Nice judgement Lord Wdrzal. There should be a reward though In colder temperatures. ITs a competition so you need to take into account all variables.
If I have happened to be designing for something just as you have posted, why can I not say that I have.

i guess it depends on the cold pate used and what sort of contact pressure.
I found a solid Vcore of 1.7 and around 4.1ghz on a quad core is only around 230-240W Max with my load tester not insulated.


then make it-35C or -30C if you want to make it easy. I just chose -40C/F is its where metric meets imperial, they are the same temperature.

i think 230W at -30c is realistic goal for ppl specially if going for low power unit using a 1/4Hp compresosr and 24/7 application.

The hardest part i think is determining a cold plate thickness for resistor loads and what size copper block for a heat cartridge we all used different load testers.

If we look at a cpu there is only around 2-3mm of metal between the cpu and the heat source, not 6mm + like some ppls load testers.

something like this simulates a cpu very well


http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7164/dsc09871fk3.th.jpg (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc09871fk3.jpg)

Maybe temps we should have ppl insert a k-type probe into their cold plates, this would simulate die temps better and give better results. This could also be done with the copper blocks used with cartridge heatloads as well.
SO cold plate temps + evaporator temps as well as pics of the load tester under load uninsulated as well, from pics we should see frost on resistors and ice on backplates at 160w ;)

[epion2985]

The suction line is below ambient usually so the only way to get it colder is use another stage, but then its not a SS anymore. I don't think I understand what you mean, can you explain :)

[TopherTony]

I've just one question : are 2 stages mono gas systems alowed? Such as 2 compressors in serial ?

As long as it uses only stage, then yeah but two compressors are going to eat up more power.

[kayl]

As long as it uses only stage, then yeah but two compressors are going to eat up more power.

2x 1/4hp compressor could use a little more than a 1/2hp.
i did a cacsade once that used 2.6A at 240v = 642w, it was a little getto though :D

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68791

[_HL4E_HalfLife_]

Its just a idea ................but its already clear you guys don't understand energy..........thermodynamic or electrical.Its still energy. I sure you guys will learn a lot on this challenge,more than in the direction most ofyou are heading


voltages don't matter ,a watt is a watt,any unit of energy can be converted to any other unit. Energy is mutually convertible, we can measure in calories then eat them for energy if we want ;) true. Of course we can't eat electrical energy,but we can take light energy and grow food we can consume.we usually call those calories.

amps X volts = watts ......this is if the load is pure resistance like a light bulb. if their is a inductive load this changes every so slightly, there is a "power factor" to be multiplied by. This number is small and changes little and since all will be using compressors(which all use inductive motors) the Field remains even.

I dono about that wdrzal, a 240v compressor is gonna have a lower amprage than a 117v compressor so lower amprage = less watts. What if someone uses a 12v compressor? or what about liquid chilling?

[Xeon th MG Pony]

W = A * V

So in the end it is the same no matter the voltage, you are correct, 240 uses less amps, but at twice the voltage so the total watts ends the same.

120V*4A=480W
240V*2A=480W

[{.bLanK} GoD]

W = A * V

One of the most common and basic electrical calculations.
If you don't know that, you should not be even looking at high voltage wiring.

[Big SturL]

I don't know the electrics behind it, but won't American 60Hz compressors be more efficient than European 50Hz ones?

[wdrzal]

240 volt here your not going phase to ground but phase to phase
so even that it comes from a single phase line on the primary side of the transformer is center tap so you have 2 phases to ground = 120 volts or phase to phase =240 volts on the secondary side of transformer.

lets say we use a 240 volt 4 amp compressor their will be 2 amps on each phase fo a total of 4.(double breaker) plus one phase may be 2 amps and the other 2.2 if your using a 120 volt condensor fan that draws .2 amps ,so the phases are not perfectly balenced. This is OK to a point.

[wdrzal]

I don't know the electrics behind it, but won't American 60Hz compressors be more efficient than European 50Hz ones?

A multimeter measures Vrms (volts root mean squared) 120v actually has 170volt peakes and valleys but since the sine wave is measuered over time 60hz or 50 hz, the Vrms has considered the HZ to give you a volt reading.

energy can neither be made or destroyed so all you need is the correct formula and understand "how things work" to put everting on a even keel.

wwwhowstuffworks.com has a excellant article on how power grids work, look it to and read it.

[Big SturL]

Errr... not like that. 60Hz=3600 RPM, 50Hz=3000RPM. Of course, no compressors run that fast, so you have do multiply it by a factor, but 3600 divided by 3000 gives us 1.2, which suggests that a 60Hz comp is 1,2 times faster than a 50Hz.

OF COURSE, JUST A THEORY! But, I know for a fact that 60Hz engines and so on, runs faster than 50Hz. Whether this draws more power or not, I'm not sure of.

[wdrzal]

XS members there are many good books and some decent sites on the Internet, but first choice is a book. Get one and study it first then ask questions;) .

I don't have the time to sit here all day and keep answering question after question when that information is readily available. You don't want in my black book under the Letter L (Lazy) do you :stick: ? Its your responsibility to do most all research and study on your own as no one here gets paid to sit here and answerer question after question all day long.

You need a comprehensive knowledge of electricity to work with it safely, I'm not about to sit here and type 500 pages so you don't have to move your behind and do something for your self,I sooner put you in my book under L as a forum is a two way street, you need to take care of your side.:fact:

Many single sentences questions may take several pages to answer and books will have graphs and pictures to help you understand when needed.Then even a several page answer does not cover every thing you do not know.

After you did some hard core studying and can't figure something out then ask. :confused:

PS: notice I addressed this to XS members not any one in particular as I think many of you need to do more self study off the net instead of just getting bits and partial answers here and there.

Gets books on electricity and refrigeration then study them ,then you will realize how much you don't know and thats what gets you hurt or killed.:slap:

I just wanted to add unless you read a book on the subject from cover to cover you will never understand anything as many forums have completely wrong answers and don't even talk about some of the most important information you ABSOLUTELY need to know. You can't advance or you won't get far to you hit a wall if you do not know the basics and physics of topic

[Unknown_road]

tom, I don't know if the danfoss compressors are 4-pole but I know the rest is correct.

[M.Beier]

XS members there are many good books and some decent sites on the Internet, but first choice is a book. Get one and study it first then ask questions;) .

I don't have the time to sit here all day and keep answering question after question when that information is readily available. You don't want in my black book under the Letter L (Lazy) do you :stick: ? Its your responsibility to do most all research and study on your own as no one here gets paid to sit here and answerer question after question all day long.

You need a comprehensive knowledge of electricity to work with it safely, I'm not about to sit here and type 500 pages so you don't have to move your behind and do something for your self,I sooner put you in my book under L as a forum is a two way street, you need to take care of your side.:fact:

Many single sentences questions may take several pages to answer and books will have graphs and pictures to help you understand when needed.Then even a several page answer does not cover every thing you do not know.

After you did some hard core studying and can't figure something out then ask. :confused:

PS: notice I addressed this to XS members not any one in particular as I think many of you need to do more self study off the net instead of just getting bits and partial answers here and there.

Gets books on electricity and refrigeration then study them ,then you will realize how much you don't know and thats what gets you hurt or killed.:slap:

I just wanted to add unless you read a book on the subject from cover to cover you will never understand anything as many forums have completely wrong answers and don't even talk about some of the most important information you ABSOLUTELY need to know. You can't advance or you won't get far to you hit a wall if you do not know the basics and physics of topic

A book, what is a book? :p:
Gah, I hate 'em.. Always miss the "CTRL+F" function when reading a book.. Especially when its for educational purpos..

- Great contest tho'

[Unknown_road]

I don't use coolpack that often anymore, I stopped doing calculations one or two years ago :D but you might be right.

[wdrzal]

I spoke to DetrotAc as he does R&D work, he thinks this is a good idea ,but made 1 recommendation that I missed:

ALL builds will be limited to a single gas.......here's why:

Refrigeration is a precise science, by mixing gases he said your turning it into black magic. I agree if you do not have a pressure /temperature chart you have no idea of what the charge is. nor could you reproduce it as most don't have the tools to do so. so lets start simple and learn the basics, you'll be surprised how much you never even heard about.

mixing gases is no more than a guess and a prayer,and one of the requirements is that your build must be able to be reproduced so you must be able to measure sub-cooling & superheat......by mixing gases you have no idea since you have no P/t chart. DetroutAC is busy as he moved into a new home but I sure he will help out if we keep this to the SCIENCE of refrigeration & not the dangerous black magic.

[serialk11r]

I think I have a solution to the varying efficiencies of compressors issue:
Why don't you just limit compressor HP instead of wattage?
EDIT: Or actually, just standardize the compressor used. A contest like this would be like an experiment. You can only have one variable that will change: The temperature/cooling power, if you throw in too many variables than the results aren't accurate, correct?
If you keep the contest to one compressor, and make it "who can achieve the lowest temp with this compressor" it would give more meaningful results.

[wdrzal]

I think I have a solution to the varying efficiencies of compressors issue:
Why don't you just limit compressor HP instead of wattage?
EDIT: Or actually, just standardize the compressor used. A contest like this would be like an experiment. You can only have one variable that will change: The temperature/cooling power, if you throw in too many variables than the results aren't accurate, correct?
If you keep the contest to one compressor, and make it "who can achieve the lowest temp with this compressor" it would give more meaningful results.

Nope,I want guys to study & debate which compressor is best, study their nomenclature and make judgment based on manufacturer spec's like compression ratio.electrical data like FLA & RLA etc.etc.

[serialk11r]

Nope,I want guys to study & debate which compressor is best, study their nomenclature and make judgment based on manufacturer spec's like compression ratio.electrical data like FLA & RLA etc.etc.

Oh, so this is a search for the most efficient compressor as well?

[wdrzal]

Oh, so this is a search for the most efficient compressor as well?

the complete refrigeration loop makes up efficiency plus some external ones like ambient temperature and humidity, but not every one has precise test instruments,but

NO CHEATING

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I Say the Gas be either R-134a or R-152a as these gases can be had by ANYONE with out a cert or any thing, they are in air dusters! So no excuses or reason for them two to be not used!

Or alternitevly for the ability to us MO:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Enviro-Safe-R22a-Replacement-Refrigerant-1-8oz-Can_W0QQitemZ150040946280QQcategoryZ64007QQtcZphot oQQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7626750828&category=64007&ssPageName=STORE:PROMOBOX:ENDSOON#GALLERY

and it has the PT chart right on the store!

Good universal can tap (This is the one in the pic): http://cgi.ebay.ca/R-12-Pro-Dispensing-Valve-1-4-Male-Flare-w-36-Hose_W0QQitemZ150021291635QQcategoryZ46094QQtcZpho toQQcmdZViewItem

As proof here are two pics of two different brands of air duster using R-134a

Read the Label:
R-134a the label will say "Contains 1,1,1,2 Tetra-fluoro-Ethane
R-152a the label will say "Contains Di-fluoro-Ethane"

(EDIT: Added Info and links)

[Ssilencer]

I don't agree on the same gas, you have that air dusters, I don't have that here.
I don't want to use any gas that needs POE oil as poe oil compressors are expensive here. (and I hate poe oil :p:)
Almost everyone is using r402 now, stick with it for the competition, as it doesn't have any sense to use a gas that we will never use again in every day buildings.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

unless this competition of his is only for advanced builders then R-402 is not some thing many can get a hold of.

The R-22 equivalent I posted above is an HC bend with a published PT chart that can be acquired by any one with out a ticket/licence globally, and can use mineral oil, there are even smaller cans on it as well for some one building a unit solely for the competition.

FYI the brands are examples, I bet if you looked at the types of air dusters you have there, you will find one that is either R-134a based or R-152a based.




(EDIT: Added info and spelling)

[Ssilencer]

unless this competition of his is only for advanced builders then R-402 is not some thing many can get a hold of.

The R-22 equivalent I posted above is an HC bend with a published PT chart that can be acquired by any one with out a ticket/licence globally, and can use mineral oil, there are even smaller cans on it as well for some one building a unit solely for the competition.

FYI the brands are examples, I bet if you looked at the types of air dusters you have there, you will find one that is either R-134a based or R-152a based.




(EDIT: Added info and spelling)

Ok, let's say r12 or r22 then :p:
Just kidding.
Now seriously, if the idea is to get knowledge and experience, I doubt anyone here will start making units from air dusters after this competition.
I think it is better to use a refrigerant that will be used in the future on quads etc.

(Spell check mine too, please, I'm a disaster :p:)

BTW, excellent can tap, I was looking for something like that you use in butane cans.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Well the way vast majority of refrigerants are being phased out R-134a or R-152a is the way some places are moving, and for this compitition the 3 gasses I listed will be the most availible to every one. The availibility is moot if this is just for the more advanced builders whome all ready have suplies, here it is 5 years to get the needed tickets to buy refrigeration and massively expensive.

I happen to be lucky to have a work around to that issue, others are not so lucky and it is of them that I am thinking of with my recomendations.

[wdrzal]

Any single gas that you think will meet the wattage and temp we finally agree on. Use what you want,but you must meet design parameters


No mixing 1 gas only, you numbers will have to match a P/T chart for that gas.

Gases than have 2 or more gases are OK as long as the bottle is FACTORY mixed and has a P/T chart it will be considered a single gas.

maybe we should pick a temperature thats reachable by propane (I can't believe I said that) but thats reality and what most guys are using @ boiling point of -44.5c

we do need more input on quad core wattage kayl gave some reliable honest numbers from his builds.

I want every one to try this, learn the basics then you won't hit a wall latter on. Besides low power consumption is the trend for all refrigeration & AC. And its good for the electric bill and the planet.

If you guys muster the few tools needed and build this challenge and keep rebuilding and studying how to lower power consumption,everyones strives for that. I am hoping we can teach everyone enough about electricity and refrigeration so you can fix your own phase unit correctly, go fix the family fridge if ever needed or your window or Central AC.

I sure hope chilly finds time to give his thoughts as he built & tuned for economy for many of his customers,his knowledge would be indispensable.

[Unknown_road]

I spoke to DetrotAc as he does R&D work, he thinks this is a good idea ,but made 1 recommendation that I missed:

ALL builds will be limited to a single gas.......here's why:

Refrigeration is a precise science, by mixing gases he said your turning it into black magic. I agree if you do not have a pressure /temperature chart you have no idea of what the charge is. nor could you reproduce it as most don't have the tools to do so. so lets start simple and learn the basics, you'll be surprised how much you never even heard about.

mixing gases is no more than a guess and a prayer,and one of the requirements is that your build must be able to be reproduced so you must be able to measure sub-cooling & superheat......by mixing gases you have no idea since you have no P/t chart. DetroutAC is busy as he moved into a new home but I sure he will help out if we keep this to the SCIENCE of refrigeration & not the dangerous black magic.

I'm sorry but I really don't agree with this part of it. almost every unit I make contains a self made propane+ethane blend. This doesn't make the unit unpredictable, it makes it unpredictable for people without experience in mixing gasses. It's not black magic at all. Officially I'm not allowed to fill any unit with r134a/r404a/r507 or whatever, I'm only allowed to use r600/r290/r170 etc. obtaining a license over here means an obligated 4 year study and thousands of euro's. But I don't mind, I'm out.

[star882]

How about allow any refrigerant that is reasonably safe and easily available? Mixtures are allowed as long as they can be purchased premixed from a store.

[wdrzal]

How about allow any refrigerant that is reasonably safe and easily available? Mixtures are allowed as long as they can be purchased premixed from a store.

Refrigerants that have 2 or more refrigerants FACTORY mixed with a P/T chart will be allowed and considered a single gas.

After we talk this all out we will gather up all rules and post them, I won't make rules to favor anybody. This is so all you guys learn to buid what is needed for the new CPU's and do it to have lowest operating cost

[TopherTony]

Refrigerants that have 2 or more refrigerants FACTORY mixed with a P/T chart will be allowed and considered a single gas.

After we talk this all out we will gather up all rules and post them, I won't make rules to favor anybody. This is so all you guys learn to buid what is needed for the new CPU's and do it to have lowest operating cost

isnt r507 just r404a with a some other refrigerant mixed in, r134 or propane? i forget. That has a p/t chart and would qualify

[Xeon th MG Pony]

4 years?!?!?! You lucky basterd!!!!!!!!!!!! Here it is 5Y 6M At 3,000 each per modual at 2 modules a year + books, tools, and living expensis (I may be starting this Aprile, that or Sep 1st 2008 <_< )

Technicly I qualify for 1st stage of the 2nd modual, but stupid laws say I have to go from step one! What are the courses there like?

[Unknown_road]

Xeon: I never took it into serious consideration to study hvac after seeing it took so long so I don't know much about it.

[hatemi]

This thing might realy be intresting and informative competitions if folks just get the rules sorted out. I dont know if I will enter this competition yet, but I'm staying tuned :D

My thoughts on the refrigerant issue. Even tough R134a is relatively easy to get in most countries it realy isnt that good stuff. Plus it is pretty useles in what we do here because of its high boiling point. And it isnt that enviromentaly friendly either.

The only gas that everyone can get easily is propane. The bottelled stuf might not be as pure as real refrigrant grade, and the precentages of additivies and inpurities vary from country to country. It is easy to use and tune because it dosnt need to be liqued charged. Any refrigerant that needs to be liquid charged has a possibility of cheating by just charging with gas form instead and leaving the high boiler gases in the botle. So my vote goes to Propane as the official gas.

[Blaster]

my 2 cents :)

1st of all im not planning of entering, striving for the best performance competition sounds appealling but it seems too many restrictions are being put in to the rules, really making it boring (at least to me).

2nd Walt seems to be afraid of anything thats doesnt obbey to refrigeration trends, in terms of safety i fully agree with him, but, if we did same procedures as normal HVAC practices our units would perform as good as "stock", manufactured Vapos or Prometeias. HVAC industry, as any nowadays industry, is set to make life of technicians / installers / engineers as easy as possible and as time / cost effective as can be. This is not what we do here... "Standards" are ussually underperformers when put against custom designs / techniques.

3rd, if this is for ppl to learn the basic, then it should only be for ppl who still havent buil any single stage. If you dont have basic HVAC skills you shouldnt try to build anything. Furthermore whats the point of building something with r134?? its useless lol ...

Dont take this post in a bad way, its just that cpu cooling is not normal refrigeration. Yes, of course it has the same thermodynamic principles and boundaries, but not the same objectives!

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Which appears that you've missed the concept. Right now he wants to see who can make a properly designed system, that will achieve the end objective of CPU cooling, rather then a crude slapped together system with undersized condenser and no form of power saving thought put into them.

The place that occasionally contracts me does every thing we can think of to reduce power, we heavily use Pressure modulated fan speed controllers and over sized condensers, this shaves off dam well 23% to 30% power usage! over a year, water cooled we net even higher savings.

One could build a temp based fan speed controller and match its speed to the PT chart of the refrigerant and put in a slightly over sized condenser, then the compressor, bigger IS NOT better, you select the right compressor that can do the job with a 25% safety margin.

Perhaps allot of you don't pay your own power bill, but for thoughs of us that do know why it is important, for the money and more importantly environment! Just switching to CFLs in your house nets you an incredible saving!

I have no intention to join either, but I'll offer help on systems that I have learnt to use for real applications such as walk ins and display cases.

People here to beauty full builds that are clean aesthetic and such but then use way over powered compressors or things that consume power excessively that add nothing, Walt has simply raised the bar to bring it to the next level.

This is a REAL competition as it has a clear purpose and rules, there are many ways to improve power consumption, I have offered many over time that with a bit of effort can be don, for example the head temp modulated fan can be made, with a good PT chart and a thermister, a 555, and a MOSFet for 10bucks.

[wdrzal]

Blaster your wrong ......just because you copy others build with a few flares of your own and your in the -100 club does not mean you understand the science and ,sure their are your bencher's that want super cold ,but if you don't learn basic by doing and re doing to see what changes matter you will hit a wall besides,listen to what customers are asking for........... a 24/7 daily driver rig that holds the load of new processors @ a respectable temperature that is Efficient to Run......how many times do we hear that as the first question ???? how much is my power bill going to go up???

This is Not my competition,it's the forums members competition even if it gets off the ground.

I just have been paying attention to what customers want......

You guys mixing gases ,do you really think you smarter than the chemical engineers who make and mix refrigerants???

Also you guys who think you advanced past this ,well don't you think you should give back to the forum by teaching to others what you know & debating what works and what does not.

[wdrzal]

Xeon the MG Pony .......I do have to say I agree with you.....you got the concept and real world application.....what the customer wants just listen.!!!!!!!

[Moc]

Furthermore whats the point of building something with r134?? its useless lol ...
That the most important point.

[Blaster]

After reading you last posts im still wondering in what am i wrong :confused:

Walt, why do you say i dont understand the basics?? Seems to me your taking assumptions


You guys mixing gases ,do you really think you smarter than the chemical engineers who make and mix refrigerants

From that sentence I take it that you think they are smarter than you are. Sorry, but i dont think im smarter than anybody as i dont think anyone is smarter than me.
I do know one thing, if i was deveploping / researching a refrigerant for the refrigeration industry, the last parameters i would take into consideration would be cpu cooling related. Understand the hint?

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Actually for the rest of the real word it is very important, We use it heavily in coolers as it has a high suction pressure, easy to compress, and it allows for a smaller evap due to its higher BP. In a system for CPU cooling it would

A:Hold the CPU at a reasonable temp
B: Use less power due to higher Suction line pressure reducing compression ratio
C: Highly available
D: Ok transport properties
E: Non toxic, stable, and relatively safe to the environment
F: Easy to work with
G: Reasonable head pressures with properly selected Condenser

The final gas selection takes allot of concideration, it depends on the needs of the system, final temp goal balanced off to Head pressure and condencer capacity & Power consumption. It is about balancing all the peramiters for the best of all. Propane is good to. In my post with links I linked every one to a Cheap source for REFRIGERANT GRADE PROPANE!!!!! They call it R22a and for only 6 or so dollars + shipping you can have it. For aplications of R-22 around -40 you need a 2 stage compressor with a form of intercooling to keep a good balance going, may not be so much a problem with R-290.

[Blaster]

Actually for the rest of the real word it is very important, We use it heavily in coolers as it has a high suction pressure, easy to compress, and it allows for a smaller evap due to its higher BP. In a system for CPU cooling it would

A:Hold the CPU at a reasonable temp
B: Use less power due to higher Suction line pressure reducing compression ratio
C: Highly available
D: Ok transport properties
E: Non toxic, stable, and relatively safe to the environment
F: Easy to work with
G: Reasonable head pressures with properly selected Condenser



maybe you dont know but stock prometeias used to come with r134, so the 1st thing costumers wanted would be to swap it lol

[Xeon th MG Pony]

So retune the cap tube, swapping just means now the refrigerant is less then idealy metered, and the compressor is running the wrong gas, each compressor is bored out to fit the gas it is running, the swept volume is tuned so to speak, using a diff gas that isn't properly matched throws allot out of the window.

R-12; R-134a are close enough to interchange providing right oil is used, R-134a uses a slightly higher displacment then R-12, R-600a using a huge displacment for a given capacity yet has close pressures to R-12, MP39 is a drop in for R-12 along with R-416; R-416 being much colder then MP39 or R-134a but of course the head pressurs are higher unless the condencer is slightly over sized by say about 25% min...

R-22 and R-290 are the same in many regards but lower head pressur for R-290; Thus one can net power savings with R-290. As a plus you need less for a R-22 system (This of course is real R-290 grade propane)

[[XC] gomeler]

r-290 is by far the easiest gas to acquire and use. I've been using it for atleast 2 years now and I have had 0 accidents, 0 explosions, and 0 burns from using r-290. Besides being extremely cheap and widely available it is also a great partner for mineral oil. Unlike r134a, r290 has a decent boiling point and the operating pressures in a properly or over sized system are low enough that safety from expanding joints isn't a concern. However while r290 is great I don't believe we should limit this to a single gas, some builders are more accustomed to utilizing other gasses and forcing them to use a gas they aren't familiar with could detract from their possible performance. The idea of a single gas per compressor is a valid concept, now somebody needs to build a 2x 1/8HP cascade :p:

[Xeon th MG Pony]

BTW, excellent can tap, I was looking for something like that you use in butane cans.

It is great, all you do is trim the stem of the bottle so it is flush with the can, I just use a razor and flush it to the can where the valve stem sticks out and trim it, then attach the tap tool, it must stay on till the can is empty though, I ordered two more taps to try an idea, I'll post results if it works the way I hope it too.

[marru]

I dont understand why you guys are thinking of limiting the competition to a single gas. If you start imposing rules on the gas, the compressor, the condensor you will end up with 5 guys having build 5 units with similar performance and the winner will probably be judged by the looks of his unit. This will beat the point of the competition which is efficiency from what i understand.

Id say we settle for a temperature T@load Q using any non-CFC (or even non-HCFC) refrigerant and may the best man win!

[sacha35]

I think some are missing the point of this test, even the most experience of builders need to participate in this as what we are looking for is the best performing unit with the least amount of energy used, think about it guys if engineers of all kinds of industry just said no I won’t do that or it’s not worth it where would we be now in the world, it is this kind of competition that takes things back to basics and something that could be so staring us in the face suddenly jumps out and works.

I am going of the subject a bit hear, think about Formula 1 if it was not for these guys trying to improve on what they have and to make things go faster we would not be driving around today in safer cars that have ABS brakes, traction control ECT, Did they say na no point in doing this they are looking to get the best out of everything they can just to get them a few more 0. Seconds of their lap times and to make things more efficient.

So I think you would agree even though I was comparing F1 to phase change which is to different parts of the world when it comes to engineering, it is not that different when you think about what we are looking for in the end product, to make things run more efficiently and better.

So I do hope all will be taking part in this as even the best could come up with something that we all have been missing.

[DetroitAC]

I think it's a good competition, and I would propose the following rules:

Refrigerant: Any refrigerant or blend that can be purchased, and that has documented thermophysical properties. You may be able to purchase R22 blended with panther spit from your buddy, but it won't have documented properties. My hope would be that most would stick to R402A, R404A, R507, R22, R502, R410A, R290, R744, R134a, R152a, etc. etc.

Evaporator: Any

Expansion device: Any

Compressor: Any

Condenser: Any, but a maximum package should be defined:
Perhaps a defined case size that the entire system must fit into (you wouldn't have to buy a case, but just keep the system small enough to theoretically fit)

System configuration: Single Stage Only, no cascades, no auto-cascades, no multi-stage compression. These are advanced systems and have a lot more engineering involved, if anything there should be a separate contest at some point in the future (or possibly a separate category if there is enough interest??).
Allowed: suction line-liquid line heat exchangers, de-superheating coils (provided they fit into the package), accumulators, TXVs, CPEVs, capillaries, receivers, oil separators, etc.
I suppose an evaporator location relative to the case must be defined so that everyone has to deal with the same length of suction line.

Design Point: Walt's figures of 250W @ -40C
Which brings up a bit of a dilema, as nobody will be able to hit that load and temperature exactly. If you can reach that amount of cooling power at a lower temperature you will be (by the nature of thermodynamics) operating at a lower efficiency. If you are higher you will have a higher efficiency, but have you met the pretend cutomer's expectations?

I'd propose the specification be changed to 240W to 260W, and temperature between -40C and -45C. If someone has a rather small compressor for the job, they can hopefully reach the minimum capacity point of 240W @-40C. If someone has a compressor that is oversized for the job they can hopefully reach 260W @-45C.

Then I'd propose a published table to "normalize" the performance data to -40C. A system that is operating at -45C must be given "extra credit". I'll propose that I generate this table using a mathematical model of a refrigeration system. In other words if you build a system that operates at -45C, you'll get a correction factor from the table like 0.9 by which you can multiply your power consumption.

The COP can be used to normalize the power consumption of all of the (slightly) different sized systems to the design point of 250W @-40C.

If you have a system with a non-steady power consumption (like cycling fans, or an oscillation caused by txv hunting) you will need to go beyond Walt's suggested measurements, to measure exactly what your system is using.

[DetroitAC]

Just proposals, it's not my competition

[Unknown_road]

to make this fair so much things should be taken into consideration. everybody should measure temperature at exactly the same point for instance. heat distribution in an evap is different for every evap so measuring the temperature on the evap isn't fair by a long shot. Spirals for instance have a colder side temperature then a maze, this doesn't say anything about core temp so temperature should be measured out side the evap in the load block. To achieve this everybody should have the same load block with a CNC drilled hole for the temperature sensor.

doing proper research takes lots of time and lots of money. getting proper results out of this research also takes lots of time and money.

Research most often fails because it is assumed easy and the results expectable.

-20*C core temp @ 250 watt is something that can be achieved with some degree of efficiency not much lower unless your using a small cascade.

[_HL4E_HalfLife_]

to make this fair so much things should be taken into consideration. everybody should measure temperature at exactly the same point for instance. heat distribution in an evap is different for every evap so measuring the temperature on the evap isn't fair by a long shot. Spirals for instance have a colder side temperature then a maze, this doesn't say anything about core temp so temperature should be measured out side the evap in the load block. To achieve this everybody should have the same load block with a CNC drilled hole for the temperature sensor.

The problem with that is not everyone will want to buy a block as im sure many here already have a block they can use. For those of that don't have a load block that can put out 250watts are we gonna have to go shopping for that too?

This competition is a good idea but its not really practical, i mean once the winner is picked out for having the mose efficient SS its not like all the other builders here are gonna change there units so there all the same as the winners unit, and every SS built is gonna work a bit better or worse then the next unit.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I look forward to watching how others find solutions, I have recommended a few that we use here on our roof top units, and I have had good success with modding home A/C systems (the window mounted type)

(It is

[star882]

Are watercooled condensers with small evaporative coolers allowed?
What about compressors that are multiple stages internally but still one motor and case?

And I suppose this can test if the Enviro-Safe refrigerants are actually more efficient.
http://www.es-refrigerants.com/products/w/id/3/t/refrigerants/default.asp

[[XC] gomeler]

I like DetroicAC's ideas, attempting to tune for a single load temperature at a single powerdraw would be terrible. One thing that could be done is just settle on a temperature, say -40 celsius, and then let users increase/decrease the load on the system. For example say one system is capable of holding 280 watts at -40 celsius or 240 watts at -50 celsius, just continue to increase the load/tune so that the evap temp is @ -40 celsius. Just an idea, there would have to be a system of rewards like DetroitAC was talking about to reward those that can handle a larger load though otherwise it wouldn't be fair.

[marru]

What if you tune your unit with -40@230W? It is very likely that you will have a lower power consumption than the guy with -40@270W but you're both off the goal.

Walt's idea to stick to that -40C@250W is good.
The winner will be among those units that satisfy this condition with the lowest power consumption. If nobody has this condition than the winner is the one that is closest to this load@-40C but no loads smaller than 250W.

Another thing is that -40C seems a little to low for 250W, -30C would seem a little more reasonable.

[kayl]

I think it's a good competition, and I would propose the following rules:

Refrigerant: Any refrigerant or blend that can be purchased, and that has documented thermophysical properties. You may be able to purchase R22 blended with panther spit from your buddy, but it won't have documented properties. My hope would be that most would stick to R402A, R404A, R507, R22, R502, R410A, R290, R744, R134a, R152a, etc. etc.

Evaporator: Any

Expansion device: Any

Compressor: Any

Condenser: Any, but a maximum package should be defined:
Perhaps a defined case size that the entire system must fit into (you wouldn't have to buy a case, but just keep the system small enough to theoretically fit)

System configuration: Single Stage Only, no cascades, no auto-cascades, no multi-stage compression.
Allowed: suction line-liquid line heat exchangers, de-superheating coils (provided they fit into the package), accumulators, TXVs, CPEVs, capillaries, receivers, oil separators, etc.

DetroitAC I like the above info is very good info to base this comp on if it does ever officially start
What load at what temp needs more discussion though, well at least I think. If you look at the spec sheet of a 1/4hp its impossible to get 250w at -40c, specially using these small 38mm round 31mm tall evaps.
Realistically 100-150w for todays cpus, 200-220w load for a dual core cpu, and 230-250 for a single stage using high oc and 1.7vcore. With cascades ppl run 1.7-1.9vcore and high Ocs 250w isn’t enough and as vcores get higher 300w is more like max wattage used for quad cores. But again ya cant expect these sort of loads to be moved by small compressors, unless ya happy with -20c load or lower. Also as you start pumping large amount of refrigerant in there and condensing temps of 40-50c in warm temperature locations we get 300psi pressures are needed and stronger compressors and also the use of HPCO’s for safety reasons.

[Fhqwhgads6680]

Hey I just stumbled upon this. What happend to this competition? seems like a fun, and useful project. Sorry for digging up an old thread but I am just curious.