cheap upgrade path from p4 to c2d for better folding box

[embeejay]

Hey all, just wanted to mention the new killer mobo from asrock - the ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA, which can run quadcore conroes in tandem with agp gfx cards and good old DDR ram.

I just bought it myself together with an e6300 and that upgrade is ridiculously cheap and will give me about twice the horsepower of the old machine.

[jimwah]

Nice find man, what client are you going for? Much in the way of overclocking options? I've only setup 1 ASrock system a while ago, but it seemed to work nicely, I think it was one of the boards with AGP & PCiE for s754, they do make some useful boards combining older tech with newer tech :up:

[SparkyJJO]

embeejay you are determined to pass me aren't you :p: and you will fairly soon too :eek:

[embeejay]

jimwah: tbh i have no clue about OC options - the upgrade is actually made so the computer will be decent in a network, playing tiberium wars with one of my friends ( we are c&c fanatics ;) ) - i am not really gonna use the rig for anything but folding and playing that game... just thought it'd be a waste to have a p4 around that uses to much power and does to little when i can upgrade to a c2d this cheap, and my friend can then skip the part about dragging his rig over to my place everytime we wanna take a night worth of gaming :D

If you wish i'll keep you posted on the OC capabilities, although i never really push my machines very far, i have ruined too many machines for that in my life... i am now an old conservative fart who favour stability over top speed (tho i still OC, just not agressivly)

[embeejay]

sparky: *LOL* nah man that's just a side effect my main goal is to catch angra *muhahaaa*

[SparkyJJO]

sparky: *LOL* nah man that's just a side effect my main goal is to catch angra *muhahaaa*

Loooonnnng term goal there you got :p:

[embeejay]

hehe yeah i figure i'll need a few millennia, after he has stopped folding for good :P

[angra]

so as I was reading the above, it occured to me to wonder:

"what's the cheapest way to put together a minicluster to output 20k+ a day under current rules"

I figure it would take ~24 dual core opterons, plus appropriate management infrastructure. (network switches, some sort of file server if you want things to be low-pain, etc).

[jimwah]

jimwah: tbh i have no clue about OC options - the upgrade is actually made so the computer will be decent in a network, playing tiberium wars with one of my friends ( we are c&c fanatics ;) )

Tiberium Wars :woot: a good reason to buy a new setup; it should be available here over the weekend. I used to enjoy RA2 over the network & C&C:Generals too. That and online Joint Ops of course.

Fair play on the stock e6300, my x2 3800 & e4300 remain at stock due to them being in cheap boards (or an expensive crap one) for now - but they both fold nicely & still put out the science without using netburst-like quantities of power :)

[Scimitar]

I read somewhere that a Kentfield at 3.5GHz could do about 3,500ppd. You would only need 6 of those to do more than 20k a day. :)

[embeejay]

scimitar: i doubt a quad-core cpu has a place in "the cheapest way..." like the market looks today ;)

[jimwah]

Kentsfield might look better at the end of the month when prices drop, I'm keeping my eye on xeon prices at the moment... I suppose with a Kentsfield rig you would need a hefty PSU & half decent cooling for each box too. But yeah they are ppd monsters no doubt :)

My farm proposal would probably involve low end C2D's (e4300) clocked at 3Ghz, with Asus P5B/N boards, half-decent 400W PSU's, and a stick of DDR2-667 :shrug: I guess 15 of them would knock out 20K on one of the SMP clients easily enough. Ahh if only I could... :p:

[angra]

ah I was forgetting about the windows SMP client. As I understand, the linux SMP client is 64-bit only, is that right? If so, under linux that precludes the intel-based processors (right? I am a little out of date on the current line of intel procs), and 2/3 of my cluster. but if the cores on the kentsfield do 900ppdpc, that implies that....12 boxes would do the job.

do you really need a "half decent" PSU? Would a low-rent one not do? I wonder how much RAM timings really affect this problem also....I bet it's mostly cache?

[angra]

PS I think you could build a dual core opteron system with RAM in a shuttle case for under $400....I'm not at all convinced this is the cheapest path, but that comes out to ~$10k plus network infratructure.

another thought - if the boxes run windows, how exactly does the owner manage them all? Under linux at least, we have devised scripts and approaches that keep the hassle to a minimum...

[SparkyJJO]

For windows remote desktop works well.

I can't wait to see what Barcelona can do crunching-wise once it is released. My friend (Servin247365) has a dual FX-70 box that can take 2 of those quad cores with just a bios update :slobber: He folds with it using the SMP client and GPU client together, but he has been doing a lot of video work and such so there hasn't been much time for the system to just crunch WU's.

[Scimitar]

Yes, the Kentsfields are expensive now. My point was that in a month when the Q6600 goes down to $500, that should be the best value in terms of total system cost / ppd. You should be able to put together a system for fairly cheap. I have extra cases, cpu coolers, older VGAs, and rams laying around, would just need a PSU and MB.

[angra]

oh, I was not thinking about using existing scrap parts for this thought experiment :). how cheaply can c2d or whatever systems be assembled? I am guessing you can get a shuttle box with case, PSU and motherboard for ~$200...how much are the CPU and RAM?

windows remote desktop is probably tolerable, but if you have to manually log into each one to launch the client, it would get annoying and old. I guess you could make a stripped down, fast-booting windows, with F@H as a service, and set up some sort of STONITH setup to reboot dead/naughty nodes without too much hassle....

how would you keep track that each node is still up & running? Under linux ganglia gives me a really nice way to manage this...I have cronjob that checks every 20 minutes that every node is responsive, and sends succesively stronger reboot commands to the node if it isn't...

[jimwah]

All recent Intels are 64-bit so stick to the linux, with the kind of functions it sounds like you are used to, Windows will probably make you want to set fire to your PC's & live in a cave :p:

Have you looked at a good socket 771 setup, a few cheaper dual core Xeons in a Tyan board would probably end up cheaper than a Kentsfield setup - less overclockable but there's some options, like pin mods etc. Play with the Intel Spec Finder (http://processorfinder.intel.com/Default.aspx) and froogle some prices :)

Everything I think of, points to linux/Intel setup ... at the moment... new AMD chips arriving sometime soon ... linux SMP points castrated soon perhaps? Who knows, but then if you always wait for the next best thing to come out you'd never buy anything.

[sc00p]

...then if you always wait for the next best thing to come out you'd never buy anything.Story of my "life" :stick:... :slapass: to me :(

[embeejay]

"what's the cheapest way to put together a minicluster to output 20k+ a day under current rules"

My bet is this:

* lowend c2d - i'd go for the e6400 since thats the best price/performance here in dk.
* a cheap p965 mobo
* cheap ram - 512 mb should be all you need, maybe 256mb
* stripped down 64bits linux.

Each box should be able to do between 1000-2000ppd depending on the WU's they get served.

Pricerange for a box like this, if every component is brand new shouldn't be above $800, and can probably be made cheaper

[angra]

I should point out that I am not actually planning to do this, just kind of a fun thought experiment. After running a cluster with 104 CPUs (at times) folding, I have an appreciation for the secondary things that become an issue at scale....management hassles being one, but also system-wide power supply (my cluster has 7 30 amp circuits dedicated to it!), room cooling (my lab upgraded the air conditioner in the machine room when I got my cluster), etc.

MBJ - my intuitive feel is that the system you describde can be had for cheaper than $800...those shuttle case/psu/mobo combos are pretty cheap!

Jimwah - didn't realize the current generation of intels are 64 bit, that is great. Linux 64-bit, SMP client is the way to go, IMO, given that fact.

check this (http://www.siliconmechanics.com/quotes/113669?confirmation=1966675429) out - 8 cores for $1900, not too bad?

[SparkyJJO]

Wow we are talking big bucks here. Wish I could afford stuff like that.

[embeejay]

MBJ - my intuitive feel is that the system you describde can be had for cheaper than $800...those shuttle case/psu/mobo combos are pretty cheap!

You are undoubtedly right. I am not really used to prices in $. I live in denmark and although i know how to convert between DKK and US$, I don't know how to convert between the very different pricestructures in the countries.
A low end system in denmark costs at least the equivalent of $1.000 and a medium to high end is more like $3.000 - $4.000. The system you can see in my sig set me back the equivalent of $2.500,-.
As an example the current quad-core CPU's sell for over $1.000 around here, same goes for the best gfx cards

oh and the very cheap upograde to my p4 system i started by mentioning in this thread is probably not cheap in your ears - that mobo and cpu combo cost me $450 approx. - did i mention we pay over 50% in taxes as well? :P

[angra]

oops yeah I forgot to notice that you are in denmark. Cheap is as cheap does....everything's relative!

[Movieman]

oops yeah I forgot to notice that you are in denmark. Cheap is as cheap does....everything's relative!

Angra: If $$ isn't a huge concern and you want a monster folder, take a look at the clovertowns. I have 2 systems here running at over 3000 and they do over 25K a day each in WCG. I don't know what they would do on F@H, we had them on back at christmas to help. Look at meshmesh's output then.
That was one clovertown and one AMD X2-4400.
Not cheap to build but a monster when you let them loose.
To compare, a DX3600 does maybe 5000 a day in WCG and a conroe 6600 at 3600 does maybe 7000

[angra]

MM - for this I was just curious...how cheaply could someone put together a 20k+ per day F@H rig, from scratch. looks like it could be done for $6k using the 8 core boxes I linked above....

[[XC] gomeler]

If anyone is considering assembling a cruncher farm in the near future (within 6months) then I'd suggest waiting for the Q3 price drops. Q6600 is supposed to drop down to the $300 range I believe, DDR2 will be dirt cheap (2 gigs for $100 already!) and 965 motherboards will be in the $100 range. So for ~$550 you can get a PSU, Mobo, Ram, CPU, heatsink, and a PCI VGA that will decimate the competition. Mount these to shelves and voila, insta-farm, just add power. Then again you could do the same thing for about $750 now, need to figure out if the $200 hardware + operating costs are worth the points you'd generate.

[angra]

$600 for 4 cores (need a case, yeah?) would be pretty tough to beat. Maybe $800 with todays prices? $200 per core. The 8 core server I listed above was more like $250 per core (of course it comes with a 1U rack which is nice) - Sounds like ~$4k is the current best price for enough cores to generate 20k+ppd.

That's enough to get any individual folder into the top 25 project-wide, fwiw.

plus you could do some fun programming with a rig like that, too. programming for massively parallel systems (not that 20 cores would constitute massive parallelism) is a real bear.

[[XC] gomeler]

Psh who needs cases, my two systems run in an Ikea nightstand table :) One system on top, one system on bottom, PSU's and HDDs in the center shelf.

[SparkyJJO]

gomeler;2098134']If anyone is considering assembling a cruncher farm in the near future (within 6months) then I'd suggest waiting for the Q3 price drops. Q6600 is supposed to drop down to the $300 range I believe, DDR2 will be dirt cheap (2 gigs for $100 already!) and 965 motherboards will be in the $100 range. So for ~$550 you can get a PSU, Mobo, Ram, CPU, heatsink, and a PCI VGA that will decimate the competition. Mount these to shelves and voila, insta-farm, just add power. Then again you could do the same thing for about $750 now, need to figure out if the $200 hardware + operating costs are worth the points you'd generate.
Q3 price drops, and/or see how AMD's chip stacks up (it should be out by then, right?). Yeah I'm an AMD fan :D

[embeejay]

I saw some interesting specs on AMDs upcomming cpu a month or so ago that very strongly indicated that it will wipe the floor with kentsfield :D

[Movieman]

MM - for this I was just curious...how cheaply could someone put together a 20k+ per day F@H rig, from scratch. looks like it could be done for $6k using the 8 core boxes I linked above....

Dual clovertown cost:
X5350 cpus:$1500-$2000 a pair( the best one's available,will do up to 3200 on air and 3500?? on water)
$1200-$1300 for a pair of X5340's(these are ok and will do 3000)
MB: $350-$450
Ram:$500(4x1 gig-DDR2-667FBDimms)
HSand HS Fans:$100.00( special combo to keep these cool)
Bragging rights: Priceless:D
I was telling the guys on WCG:
For laughs I unrared a 750mb AVI file...4 seconds..I just sat there and laughed.

[MarlboroMan]

Hey all, just wanted to mention the new killer mobo from asrock - the ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA, which can run quadcore conroes in tandem with agp gfx cards and good old DDR ram.

I just bought it myself together with an e6300 and that upgrade is ridiculously cheap and will give me about twice the horsepower of the old machine.

there is an intel chipset 865PE mobo that supports quadcore conroes too, take a look:
http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=ConRoe865PE


that is the same I am using right now :)

[justin_c]

i read in Wired that supercomputer power (grid computing, facilities) is being sold for as cheap as a buck a hour. Wonder where that is. Didnt say.

[embeejay]

For anyone interested:

The mothrboard mentioned in this thread works very well - i have a running system with it now, and although i can feel the performance hit in using DDR400 ram instead of DDRII800, and AGP gfx instead of PCIe, i still love the system compared to the old p4 i had before...

compared to my main rig (in sig) running at stock speed, the asrock, with DDR400 ram and a slightly slower cpu (the e6400 instead of the e6600) at stock speed runs noticably slower, but then it has a slower cpu, slower ram, a slower hardrive, chipset - you name it :)

Still it performs decently, taking around 25 minutes per % on the smp client under windows xp, where my main rig at stock takes around 15 min.

It also goes to show how memory dependent the gromacs core is that when i lower the ramspeed from 200 mhz to 185, while overclocking the cpu from 2.13Ghz to ~2.4Ghz the client folds slower :O who would have thought - optimize your ram and not your cpu (tho i have a feeling this is not the same for DDRII ram, at least not as pronounced).

Anyhow, i am running the system at stock speed, because it is a lousy platform for overclocking - the bios has a few things to set, but most of the stuff you really want to be able to control isn't there, like vcore, vmch, vfsb, etc.

I will still recommend it as a cheap upgrade path from a p4 system, but don't hope for more than a slightly-slower-than-normal-c2d-stock-system after the upgrade, or you'll likely be disappointed.

[embeejay]

Ok... new advice - DO NOT buy this motherboard *LOL*

Had it out of the machine to install a tuniq tower and that was it... it died... from a simple HS upgrade... ok granted i probably did something to break it, but since i have assembled far over 1000 pc's in my lifetime, and i have no idea what i did to break it,. i'll say there is at least a chance it wasn't my fault, and that it is simply a case of cheap crap :/

The symptoms themselves are odd as well - power on the agp/pci bus, the fan headers, but not the rest of the system. no green light when rj45 is plugged in, hdd doesn't spin up, keyboard-lights don't blink when power, is turned on, but fans run fine, including gfx cooler (thats how i can tell there is power on the agp bus).

Have tested all components in anoteher system, except the cpu, but i doubt that i managed to kill th cpu by installingfa new hs on it - it's not like it has an exposed core you can chip...