-170 club on cascade

[|RickY|]

sorry about openning a new thred, but i'm to mutch happy :D

well, this is breaked on my 3rd stage cascade: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=123099&highlight=3stager

i got some natural gaz out of my kitchen (95%methane):
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/2792/naturalgaswp5.jpg

and after some tests i get my best temp ever on phase-change, probably on of the lower temp pics on xtremesystems :)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3824/174wn6.jpg

1st stage is +- -60ºc
2nd stage on +- -110 to -120 range
3rd stage pressures was 220psi hi vacuum low. (i love this rotary)

termometers and camera baterys dont help i need to be quick.

problems: cascade very times stop and start... i assume this can be becouse the litle co2 natural gaz have. that can make ice on cpev for example.

between tests i make this video of cascade breaking my last better temp (-144ºc) i'll make another of -170 break when i carge camera batery :D

video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmesyD2xEOU disponible soon

more pics and videos and test's soon, anyway i'll try to get r14 for 3rd stage, just becouse this is to bench and actual cpu's coldbugs somewere neear -130 -140ºc.

:toast:

[M.Beier]

Vid not availible :(

I WANNA SEEEEEE

Ricky, tell us some temps at different heatloads as well.. And extra ordinary project mate, really impressive !

[n00b 0f l337]

Time to update the avatar.

[runmc]

Well Ricky - You just blew everyone away with this http://www.teampuss.com/forums/images/smiles/cold.gif Very COLD bro

[Stapler]

Damn Ricky that's just nuts, nice going bro.

[Pedro Rocha]

Hahahah you told me, but I hardly belive -- but it works :banana:

That sound the right way to do our X6800 and QX6700 runs again, the mobo, cpus and the rest are ready :D :D

Pure Ricky Style :toast:

[likewhoa]

sweet temps, good job. :toast:

[n00b 0f l337]

Gotta be said.
Fuk Ln2.

[Pete]

Whoa nelly thats bloody cold and cool as a hell. I love it. So how cold you going for non loaded?

This is insaine, Ln2 temps nearly

[n00b 0f l337]

I vote for drilling holes in ur desk, mounting the evap, and letting it ice the desk up a little. Just for show.

[Pete]

I vote for drilling holes in ur desk, mounting the evap, and letting it ice the desk up a little. Just for show.

I 2nd that, also letting it touch the side of your car and seeing how long it takes to ice up all over!

[Stelios]

WOW !!! Congrats man !!!! Great results !

But be careful with this gas !!! :fact:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas

[sacha35]

-170 WoW Ricky, that will take some beating, great work well done you should be very happy.

[Kunaak]

damn, thats near LN2 temps...

[M.Beier]

well.. I think you better add a 4th stage with Helium Ricky - just while your at it ;)

[Gray Mole]

This is one more reason why you are an Xtreme Legend :toast:

You don't just push boundaries, you destroy them. Quite an achievement, and definitely the coldest temp I have ever seen on any casade cooler.

Amazing, but completely crazy :D Propane is dangerous but Natural Gas...let's just say I hope no one else decides to try it.

Gray

[Dimas]

RickY, our talk on msn give some results:D:D
like i said you, kitchen gas is not soo clean to play with cascades, but works;)

[Polizei]

Incredible! Nice work... lets see some pictures of that cascade.

[[XC] gomeler]

Amazing, love the resourcefulness of pulling the gas from the stove tap! I'm guessing your natural gas is primarily composed of methane? Read the wiki about it and it looks like an amazing hydrocarbon :banana::banana::banana::banana:tail. Now time for you to start seperating the stuff and using propane on the first stage, ethane on the second stage, and methane on the third stage :p:

[Pete]

Incredible! Nice work... lets see some pictures of that cascade.

:fact: read the topic on the 1st page here (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=123099&highlight=3stager)

[|RickY|]

thanks ppl, i'm happy, maybe if i can get some pure metane i can try to bench some old no coldbug cpu's :)

yes dimas you are right, the big thanks go to you, you told-me about natural gaz and methane :toast:

on the youtube movie, it stops decreesing temps becouse dry ice or somthing on cpev. after some time it restart lowering the temp but i only have batery for 1 shot, not movie, i'll make another soon :) but it have to many stops to bench, thats why i need pure methane for try to load it. and to spend money i'll point to r14+argon to get some small pressures and -130 range to work on almost all conrroe :) the ideia of this cascade is benching hehe

:toast:

[sacha35]

will watch with intrest, looking forward to seeing more from you.

[Pete]

Maybe we could do a -170c+ donation! I'll stick in a £10 for a laugh but a feat of huge enginering.

How much ya need?

[Tyrou]

Super nice temperature there, congratulations :toast:

I hope you'll not have the same problems I had with that gas: very cold no-load temps, and awful (I mean worse than with pure R1150 in third stage) as soon as you load it. This is due to the quite low molecular mass and specific vaporization heat of methane, so you'll need a massive flow to make it work.

Good luck finetuning it, can't wait to see LN2 temps on a cascade :clap:

[SexyMF]

Awesome work. That first picture is priceless.

[{.bLanK} GoD]

Well done |RickY|:clap:
Very impressive.
And as Tyrou said, I hope you succeed in tuning that bad boy.:toast:

[dinos22]

wow sex on the beach :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[kayl]

nice work ricky, methane hey :toast:

[blind_ripper]

:YIPPIE: nice deep vacuum on that rotary there , really one time thing i geusse :D .

[DEVIL K-ce]

:slobber:

-170C on cascade. This is awsome temp :eek:

Grats for You


Martin

[marru]

That -174C picture is priceless, but we're still waiting for the loaded temps.

:toast:

[Messiah Khan]

Wow, now that is one very cold cascade! A big congratulations, and im looking forwarded to see how this beast performs when loaded.:)

[andre X_X]

you're just not stopping amaze me ricky.... Heaven will be your place coz Hell will never let you enter coz you're gonna froze them (just kidding)... :D:D:D

[LukeXE]

Well, just amazing Ricky. Those compressors are doing really awesome job :toast:

I would push that hard with my cascade, but my compressors are so weak ;(

[n00b 0f l337]

Well he's in vacuum at the moment. For methane to work I'd imagine youd need to be delivering quite alot to the evap at load. Luckily he has a CPEV!

[n00b 0f l337]

Ricky, you really do need to try and make a little Ln2 with that. I think you have nitrogen correct? How about either rigging the evap to a coil or something, or just replacing it with an HX real quick and run some nitrogen out of the regulator at the needed pressure.
Ln2 drip ftw.

[404Power]

This cascade is just LOL! :D
kitchen gas and ... -174°C ... here we go! :D
Juist awesome! :toast: :)

[Brettbeck]

WOW that's insane! Try adding some Argon or Nitrogen to it and you may even get LN2 temps :D !

[Patriote]

Talk about Xtreme... Hell Yeah!

Nice job! :D

[before]

Very impressive cascade temp.... i'm speechless! :)

[4Qman]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[wdrzal]

I sure hope your not recovering that past the venturi where air containing oxygen is being recovered along with methane.

[Noob-ftw]

Making the Portuguese proud!

Quite an achievement.

[Unseen]

Excellent ricky :)

[Raller]

Impressive work RickY !! ..

Those temps are insane!

[piotres]

OMG Congratulations :toast:

I MUST build mine 3 stager this year ..after sawing that I decide that I must make that :D . Specially if I have some 20k+ BTU rotaries waiting to be used in mine garage ;) .

Peter

[n00b 0f l337]

Heh, I know it seems like a wonderful project. But when it comes down to it, its just an experiment in gases. Your still just adding a compressor - desuperheater - oil separator - hx for another stage. Though your performance might be great, why not try and experiment a bit with those 1.75hp rotarys Piotres.

[expansionvalve]

-170C :eek:
The figure quoted is certainly impressive, no doubt about that!

But, I'm sorry to say I have my doubts, not on what the builders figures say they are but what the thermometer says.

In the last 15years I have used many many brands of thermometers from flukes down to the el-cheapo brands and can say, they can and do go out of calibration, be it due to sensor or the measuring instrument, just one knock can put the measuring device out, don't ask me how cuz I don't know, but I do know it can.

I think not so long ago a guy claimed a WR for single stage (turned out to be a PB), for this, I would expect at least a thermometer calibration certificate for validation.

I think calibration to zero degrees C in ice/water or 100C or thereabouts for boiling water is totally different than sub -50s for calibration, pushing past anywhere near -50sC needs a bang on accurate thermometer, and for me, a calibration cert.

[Polizei]

Even if his thermometer is 30C off, its still the coldest cascade Ive seen since I started coming to XS.

[Moc]

If the evaporation pressure= his temp then its all right!

[n00b 0f l337]

I think comparing the temperature at unloaded to a given PT chart for the gas should be plenty to validate though.

[Moc]

I think comparing the temperature at unloaded to a given PT chart for the gas should be plenty to validate though.

Yep, that is what I wanted to say :p: :) .

[n00b 0f l337]

The problem also widens though when we use autocascades. Theres a mix of refrigerants and partial pressure laws complicate it.

[Brettbeck]

Yeah methane boils at about -164c, so -175c is roughly what you'd expect.

[n00b 0f l337]

Yeah the temps are reasonable. Thats not the question though. Though Rickys moving to r14, what can methane pull in such a system at load? How much refrigerant do we need to deliver to the evaporator to take on a 250-300 watt load.

[expansionvalve]

I fully understand what you guys are saying, that I have no doubt about.

What I do have a slight issue about is the reliability of thermometers, be it a fluke to the economy variant,

I could go out into my garage now, grab a fluke or similar, lay out a few compressors and claim xxxx temperatures, post a few pictures and have the whole forum believe that I have the coldest setup... it's easy!

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting |RickY| at all nor his rig, I have no reason to believe that foul play is evident, I'm just trying to get the point across that just because a thermometer say xxxx figure it's correct, there is so very little info to go on...

At the end of the day, I'm a trade guy and unless correct procedure is followed I will have my doubts... sorry if that offends, it's not meant that way but in the real world, calibration certificate means everything!

On that note, I congratulate builder of megga negative temps.
Thats all I have to say really :)

[Polizei]

I understand what youre saying.. I dont know much about thermometers or their tolerances, but I dont think people would use a Fluke or UEI if they werent that accurate.

Being an electrical engineering student, I know that cold affects electricity, and I have a feeling that the probes for these thermometers are just temperature controlled resistors, so really cold temps might affect readings. (ex: super conductors and cold temps)

I might be off topic or not getting what youre saying, oh well. :rolleyes:

[Xeon th MG Pony]

They are bimetalic thermal cuples, and I imaging they use a current mirror as their referance with an amplifier/buffer.

[Polizei]

Explain... I wish I knew how they worked.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

They haven't tuaght thermal cuples yet! :eek:

Two differant metals put togeather will generate a current at their interface when the two sides of the cuple are at different temps, same idea as a Furnaces thermal cuple going to the valve assembly. Thats the prob, as temps change their current & voltage out put changes, using a current mirror as a referance it sort of auto balances its self out to zerro which helps cancel out variance, this is a guess of mine, they may just go directly to a mcu with no signal buffering.

[Polizei]

I dont know much... Im still in my first year at college for electrical/computer engineering. Most indepth class Ive taken so far is Switching and Logic which is nothing but logic gates and circuits that use them and a dabble of programming.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

they never coverd thermal couples in G 10 though? Any case look up bimetalic thermal couples.

http://www.aspden.org/reports/Es2/esr2.pdf < Explains in detail some stuff about them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple < Wici article, more basic.

[barrymaldon]

This is sooo nice, i'm really looking forward to load tests

[|RickY|]

no problem about doubts :)

i dont understand to mutch about termometers etc :D but i have here 2 termometers, mine, and the yelow uei from my friend sl4ck and the real about the same

how can i test acurrancy of an termometer? if the ice isn't the best way


anyway i'll write again, this is cool but i make cold to bench, i'm and overclocker @1st i just start making cold to overclock higher, and the ideia of this cascade is to cool conrroes for now, and the most conrroes work on -130 range, this is just tests until i wait for r14.

thanks :)

[wdrzal]

first thats a easily reachable temp with methane,its has a low boiling point and with some vacuum ,very possible. Methane is a light gas with a low molecular mass,lighter than air. it will not Carry much load.

as to the question of his thermometer, all K type probes and meters are not that accurate at cryogenic temperatures. This is just going to talk about meters in general,(nothing to do with Ricky's number)I believe it. just zeroing a meter in ice water is not calibration. I posted the calibration scale before for K couples, for each degree there is a very precise voltage to calibrate a meter too, they don't check every degree ,but many points along the way up and down from zero. Showing your meter is 0.00 in a ice bath does not mean it will read -150c when the temperature is truly -150c.

The only observance made was I can't see a C or F in any pictures,may because of camera flash

It highly dangerous of what he did,sorry "Ricky" but thats the truth. natural gas which is mostly methane comes in different variants,so there is not a specific heat value as what make up natural gas is different depending of where it came from and was any purification done.I doubt you know the actual make up unless you contacted the gas company. If it was liquefied and transported it's pretty clean, natural gas out of the ground as many places use contains: water ,hydrogen sulfide ,CO2 and propane not a problem when using it in burners, the moisture simply turns to water vapor and the rest is consumed by the combustion process. In refrigeration you guys know what a drop of moisture can do,block you system and cause rises in pressure. hydrogen sulfide is a corrosive flammable gas thats highly toxic if not consumed in the combustion process..

The most important is you should never recover gas in that way, go buy a bottle of pure methane if you must use that gas. Develop a relation ship with your local gas supplier,He should know most of the dangers but again your not using it the way most do. you average home appliances are supplied with "OSI"(ounces per square inch) not "PSI". A compressor can pull approx. negative 7 to 10 psig, 15 to 25hg vacuum . The pressure difference can damage other regulators and gas valves,in the system. If you recover it after the venturi where air is drawn in to support the combustion, you now also have nitrogen ,oxygen moisture and the other lesser gases. If direct before the venturi(most likely point) you may have what is mentioned above and may have done some of the damage mentioned.

Using gases with the devices and way they are designed for is safe.

Ricky looking at that picture of you doing what you are doing can be so dangerous, and now every kid with a natural gas stove will follow what you did. Thats what scares the hell out of me.

Again my opinion is temps with no load means little and can be very dangerous to achieve in they way your going about it, and trying to recover gas in that manner can be dangerous to all in the home as it may damage other gas valves for other gas appliances .


Many people never tell the near misses they had. I sit hear and wonder what the -xxx number will be when we get the word of a serious injury or death.AS most accidents are not accidents at all, It's using equipment in ways it was not designed for and not even think about the dangers you are creating.

Guys while dealing with flammable gases ,probably with no training can be the extreme in XS. Extremely dangerous.

You guys need to stop and think about what you are doing, I would much rater see you buy pure methane, but I really don't like flammable gases used like this at all.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I'll second that, saturated propane or methane inside a tank is safe as no oxidizer is present, but getting gas in such a way there is no guarantee that you are not pulling in air as well, which is enough to get me nervous! I don't want to be around that tank!!

Best to get it in a way that at the very least you know it to be free of air! When working with flammable gasses there is the one biggest rule to follow and that is to never allow it to mix with air till you want to burn it, and keep good air flow to keep it from being able to form an explosive cloud.