Everyone should read this....

[TodB]

An artcle about the RMA...

http://www.overclockers.com/articles753/

I personally share his opinion, what about you? :stick:

[gobbo]

Personally, i think that if we volt mod something, and dmamage it, we should RMA it still. If the company does not want to issue a refund for it then they say so. Simple

[JCviggen]

there are various ways you can approach this...

personally I believe that if hardware makers were given the choice between getting RMA's from physically damaged stuff, or their products not used at all by overclockers, they wouldnt care much about a few RMA's. After all, its perfectly free publicity for a product anyway, and the actual cost to replace a product isnt that steep.

If a product is refused for RMA I'll accept that no problem. But I have no reason to feel bad about anything when RMA is accepted.

I think the author of that article is going a bit over the top with his ethics ... there is a mutually beneficial relationship between overclockers and hardware companies ... if they cared about it, they would have done something about it a long time ago. AMD has even begun replacing chipped CPU's again down here, as long as the CPU isnt half gone. 6 months or so ago it was impossible to RMA an AMD here if there was even a slight chip which you almost couldnt see... its all about customer satisfaction, and giving yourself a reputation of being flexible. That means more customers, and more money at the end of the day, even with some questionable RMA's . So imho thats just a pointless rant right there

[TodB]

It's not about the author's ethics, it's about people's ethic...

I mean it's really ugly to break something by yourself and then wanna RMA it... as the author said it:

"Buy It -> break it -> keep it"

Why should HW companies or manufacturers pay for you ( I mean the overclockers in general ) wanna be a very xtreme overclocker?

Overclocking a CPU is off the specs, Volt modding is off the specs - why should somebody else pay for you breaking something by yourself?

I mean If you tweak your car and thus it breaks do you get a free reapir?

[jmke]

the market for overclockers is growning (MSI marketing with overclocked 3DMark scores anyone?) and if you brake it during your overclocking and they RMA it succesfully , they will get a good reputation.

Like Newegg, overclockers buy there because of the RMA, so more customers then average & not everything brakes!
so overall they are profiting from their own RMA procedures!

my 2 cents :)

now we just need a newegg here in Belgium and we are set! ;)

[Kunaak]

I agree, to me, it's nothing short of stealing, and I lose a great deal of respect for someone when I know they break something from thier own mistakes then choose not to bear the responsibility of a risk you chose to take.

[TheDude]

I feel so dirty :rolleyes:

Personaly....I think he should buy a big tent, take it on the road and heal pig farmers of their lumbago. :D

Just be honest with them on how it died and let them decide.

[RichBa5tard]

I agree with the author, although i can't say i've never tried to RMA something I broke. :/

My opinion is: if you don't have the cashflow, don't push your hardware over the limit and you will barely break anything. If you do have the money: swallow the bitter pil and just buy new hardware.

I defenitly agree with the third point: RMA'ing something because it doesn't overclock like mad is just plain wrong.

@JCViggen: i think you highly underestimate the cost to replace a product.

[jmke]

hmm didn't you RMA like half your stuff RB? :p

[RichBa5tard]

Originally posted by jmke
hmm didn't you RMA like half your stuff RB? :p

Only 2 (msi kt266a & GF4 ti4200) from to dozen things i broke. :p

[JeffPH]

hehe ....

IF you BREAK it you BUY it :)

[IFMU]

I read that the day it was posted... yesterday? LoL, sorry, working 3rd shift things can get a lil outta wak!

Ok, my 2 rusty coppers on this whole thing.

If you tell them the truth, you were putting on the HSF FFS! And it chipped, cracked whatever, and they accept it, excellent, you got in on a lucky day. If they say no, oh well, shouldda been more careful!
Even if you fry it by modding it, say, like what I had just done, hardcode 2 CPU's with a different multi, you tell them that, and they do it. Fine again, you lucked out. If you lie and say it just stopped, its wrong. Period, you lied on how it died.

If you turn up the voltage, for whatever reason, with whatever cooling. You fry it, you attempt to RMA it, if y ou tell them the truth, and they accept and RMA it, fine again, you lucked out. If they tell yea go swallow something in the wrong end, looks like your luck ran out.

IMO, thats where the major difference lies on most of this, folks will do something to fubar up a part. Then claim ignorance and RMA. That is wrong, period. If your honest and up front tell them all the gory details, and they do RMA it, great!

As a side note, Ive fried nearly half a dozen CPU's recently, apparently a bad string of luck on my part and hopefully coming to an end. I have yet to even attempt an RMA. I did it, Ill suck the damages.

All you can do is what you think is right and explain to others why its "right" or "wrong". After that, its up to them.

[MrLavender]

While I agree with some of the things he says, that is a badly thought out article and the whole area is nowhere near as black and white as he makes out.

RMA'ing cpus because you don't like their steppings has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the issues he raises. Here in the UK we have something called the distance selling law. Anything bought over the internet can returned unused within 7 days for absolutely no reason at all - "I don't want it" is good enough.

Secondly, as JC says at least some companies actively encourage overclocking of their products and use that as a selling point. The last thing I RMA'ed was a Gainward Ti4400 "Golden Sample" which was sold on the basis that it was guaranteed to run overclocked. They even give you a utility to overclock it! So when I fried the ram (with absolutely no warning I might add - no artifacting or anything) I didn't feel I was doing anything wrong by returning it.

The one place where I do agree with him is on the subject of hardware mods. That is totally different, you are now knowingly using the product in a manner it was not designed for and if you break it it's your fault and you shouldn't expect other ppl to pay for that.

[JCviggen]

my point was ... the rant on overclockers isnt going to change anyone's mind is it ? There's pro and contra and neither side is going to be changing its mind so whats the point....

some time ago I had a broken ABIT board. Took it to the store, I explained what happened and pointed out some obvious solder marks. The guy in the store wrote in the discription of malfunction that the board had been tampered with. So what, ABIT still sent me a new board anyway..... (though i think its prolly about a year ago already)

there ARE limits... I've seen an 8RDA where the voltage controller had been ripped off the board because the owner in question tried to get the heatsink off the chip with a pair of plyers. That is over the top. More subtle things are open to debate and I believe it is up to the manufacturer/reseller to deside what gets RMA and what not.

[IFMU]

Originally posted by JCviggen
I believe it is up to the manufacturer/reseller to deside what gets RMA and what not.
I can agree with that as long as the manufacturer/reseller is not lied to on how it was damaged etc.

[Teus]

a guy at madshrimps RMA'ed his wasted abit bord after it's been in a vapo. he e-mailed abit and they said it was okay to have a residu of grease in the socket

guess what, they noticed 'user abuse' and he had to pay the board when he got it back!

that's the problem, the companies need to state when to RMA and when not.

[Jeff]

I agree with the article and the people who say "You buy it, you break it, you own a broken piece of hardware". ;) And returning something that doesn't overclock to your expectations, but works to factory specs, is 110% wrong in my opinion. That's when you have to use your brain a little and sell the 100% functioning, poor overclocking, item on eBay or to your neighbor or whoever isn't really into overclocking. You eat the 10%(or less) loss and then buy another one and hope it's better than the first.

At any rate, I look at this hobby as a gamble and I know I'm not going to get cherry items without a few stinkers. ;)

[Susquehannock]

You know, it strange how most people have a whole different
set of ethics when it comes to electronics.

With the ease of OC these days it's no wonder so many have
overzealous expectations.
It used to be you needed a #2 pencil and magnifying glass
to tweak a few extra Mhz from your CPU. Now it's just a few
BIOS adjustments. The manufacturers have to set a design
limits someplace. Lest we forget ... overclocking is just that, ... OVERclocking!

The addage "You have to pay to Play." would seem to apply here.
Think about it ... would you expect an auto dealership to take
back your new Sports car because you decided to bolt a supercharger
on top? Heck no!
That metaphore is not too excessive IMO. When you put
these use Thermalright heatsinks, or water cooled rigs
for that matter, what are you doing? Supercharging your computer.


Don't get me wrong. It would be nice to return something
that was my fault. But too many expect a free lunch.

[mdzcpa]

The article has way too much "holier than thou" in it. Far too much preaching for my taste.

Will the one without sin please cast the first stone.

Face it, business is business, and that is all any of this is about. As it was said before, these companies will be the ones to decide RMA policy...not you. Whether or not anyone ever RMAs something they broke, these companies factor in the assumption that many will. They only consider it to be a simple cost of business. No one at the reseller or manufacturer is losing any sleep.

So, based on that alone the article is pretty stupid and far too preachy. It smacks of naivity.

That said, the concept of doing the right thing is not bad to discuss...but it is a personal choice and something not to be preached to about. I, for one, do not think it is right to RMA something that was directly damaged by overclocking, modding, mishandling, whatever. However, life is never that easy. The obviously trashed hardware should be the expense of the person who trashed it. But...there can be some grey area.

For example, I RMA'd an XP 2100 B after it died three weeks from install. Was it overclocked? I was running it at 2ghz at 1.675v with an old SK6. It was folding 24/7. One day it just went down and never rebooted again. Totall without warning....it just failed instantly.

Now, one side may say that "I fried it". Another side may say that with that mild of an overclock, the inevitable just happened a bit sooner.

I'm just glad it happened in my 30 day warranty period:)

Bottom line....the issue is not nearly as black or white as the "sinless" preacher in that ridiculous article. What we decided to do, or not to do, will change nothing within the industry. We use our common sense and do what we each of us feels comfortable with...nothing more.

[IFMU]

Originally posted by mdzcpa
We use our common sense and do what we each of us feels comfortable with...nothing more.
That I cannot agree with, the rest, not a prob. But that, sorry I cant.

Too many people feel/think/wish whatever that the big companies owe them for some reason. So these folks will never have a prob tryin to RMA something, legit or not.

This is also under the presumption everyone has the same level of common sense, which, I can say is far from the truth. Some folks just arent gifted with the common sense rocks have. ;) LoL

[Johnny Knoxvill]

you buy it --> you do whatever you want with it.
i personally think it's wrong to RMA stuff you broke, but it's worse imposing your views on others which is what that article is essentially doing.

[jmke]

Originally posted by Teus


guess what, they noticed 'user abuse' and he had to pay the board when he got it back!
.

uhm nope, biCker (person in question) did get a new board (newer even IT7-Max2 instead of the Max1 he returned) but it took them 4-6 months to replace it, as they had a long dicussion going on about it

[Keeper]

Lying is still lying, and stealing is still stealing, to knowingly lie in order to replace a product is stealing……I don’t want to be known as a liar and a thief. On the same hand, if Abit markets a MB as a great overclocker and it fails, they should replace it. If I alter the board and it fails, I should eat it.

[mdzcpa]

Originally posted by mdzcpa
We use our common sense and do what we each of us feels comfortable with...nothing more.

Originally posted by IFMU
That I cannot agree with, the rest, not a prob. But that, sorry I cant.

Too many people feel/think/wish whatever that the big companies owe them for some reason. So these folks will never have a prob tryin to RMA something, legit or not.

This is also under the presumption everyone has the same level of common sense, which, I can say is far from the truth. Some folks just arent gifted with the common sense rocks have. ;) LoL


It's not based on any presumption....it's based on the facts of life. Preaching morality is the second oldest profession in the world. Many who buy into preached morality do so in order to make themsleves more comfortable with their own values.

When it comes down to morality and personal values it all comes down to personal choice....in each and every instance.

You cannot control or legislate morality and values. Rarely can you influence it. You can only develop laws and rules which attempt to alter actions through punishment and reward.

So, those that believe they are doing the right thing by not returning hardware which they borked through their own actions should sleep well at night knowing they held to their own values and leave it at that. Worrying about, and taking an interest in, other people's sense of morality serves no purpose except to cast doubt onto one's own conviction of values. If you're right...you're right. What anyone else decides to do, or not to do, does not effect the "correctness" of your own actions based on your own values.

Please understand that I agree in concept that users should not dump ruined hardware back to the manufacturer. That's not what the RMA process is designed for. However, "bad returns" is a fact of the retail process and always will be. This rule spans all industries in retail. That doesn't make it right...it just puts it into perspective. And when someone get's on a stump to preach about the morality of other's actions, I cannot help but to question the preacher's own conviction. Frankly, it always sounds more like someone needing reassurance they are doing the right thing themselves.

[Holst]

My view from the other side of the fence.

If you kill something overclocking then thats your fault and your responibility.
Hardware mods are pretty black and white.
Blowing stuf up through too much voltage is fairly black and white as well in my mind. if your an overclocker you know that voltage will kill things, and you accept the risk.

If somebody tries to RMA a modded or overclocked board to me (and I can tell pretty easily once you see enough people try) and they lie to me and say they didnt do anything then I have no simpathy at all. They can have there busted board back and they can pay the postage.
If I think they have made a genuine mistake and are honest then I may be more helpfull.

Its like all the people who return track damaged mainboards that have been stabbed when intalling hte heatsink, its not the manufacturers fault you cant do your job installing a simple heatsink.

I can understand that its gutting to kill an expensive bit of kit, especially a graphics card, thats a big reason that I dont vmod my graphics cards or overclock them too far as they are so damed expensive. Its a pain to kill a motherboard, but its only £100, not £300 for a graphics card.
if I cant afford to kill it I dont take the same risks.
These days if I kill a board I can often fix it myself, so I thrape them for all there worth, and im lucky enough to have access to good CPUs as well. The ram i use only cost £30 a stick so its expendable as well.

Its easy to get on your high horse about RMAing stuff, but when its your £300 graphics card you just killed its a huge temptation to cheat, jsut dont piss and moan when your found out.
Ive never killed anything very expensive, so I count myself as being pretty lucky.

[DR. YT]

ok abit advertises for overclockers by overclockers. well whats overclocking? hmm well acording to this guy its damageing a product. well ill be damned if thats not what abit mobos are made for. but i will say i think that if you add resistors or sodder that you should not rma. geuss its a matter of perspective.

[JeffPH]

So does MSI for the NEO boards :)

[Keeper]

Originally posted by mdzcpa
It's not based on any presumption....it's based on the facts of life. Preaching morality is the second oldest profession in the world. Many who buy into preached morality do so in order to make themsleves more comfortable with their own values.

When it comes down to morality and personal values it all comes down to personal choice....in each and every instance.



You can’t really believe that can you?

So you don’t have a problem if the guy down the street takes your car because his battery is dead, as long as he doesn’t have an issue with it.

I wish I could remember the guy who quoted this, but it sunk home with me in my youth;

“Self justification robs a man of his ability to reason”.

Wrong is wrong regardless if we can sleep with it or not.

[jmke]

Originally posted by Keeper
Wrong is wrong regardless if we can sleep with it or not.

what wrong is for you , might be okay for someone else...

[TheDude]

Keeper,

I did not get the same thing from mdzcpa's post as you did. I don't think the car battery scenerio is what he was shooting for at all. You must take the post as a whole, not just what you quoted.
I think he was mostly speaking to the issue of this guy up on his soap box preaching morality to the rest of us.
"to thine own self be true" sort of thing....which is what my post was aimed at if you read between the lines. :D

I have fried stuff thru my own fault and freely admitted it when trying to RMA it. I have never had an RMA declined by being truthful about how it happened. I know the difference between right and wrong. To lie is wrong...so I tell them the truth and let them decide to accept the RMA or not.
I don't preach morality or try to push my own views of such things on others. I don't have to look at them in the mirror. :D

[Keeper]

jmke

Tell that to the jury that convicted Ted Bundy!

That might be an extreme example, but give me a break, it's all right if I think so; thats insane.

Dude, maybe this guy is a holier than thou, but to throw out the baby with the bathwater is not right either. I think his point is valid regardles of how he comes across. How many of us have suffered through the guy who messed up a well built PC and called us a week later after he loaded the wrong drivers ten times and blames you.

[JCviggen]

Originally posted by TheDude
right and wrong. To lie is wrong...so I tell them the truth and let them decide to accept the RMA or not.



exactly. Whats wrong with trying RMA when you're honest about it anyway.... not like "ohh it just suddenly stopped working"... who would believe that anyway. that guy on overclockers should try to scale down his cafeine intake or smth ;)

[jmke]

Originally posted by Keeper

That might be an extreme example, but give me a break, it's all right if I think so; thats insane.

you are being to general with this.. :p

[Penti]

I must agree to Holst, of course you can't RMA a modified board or a board that is your direct fault its trashed. But if we doesn't modify the board and overclocks i think it is okey, atleast if the clocking wasn't behind the reason it broke.
I wouln't RMA a board i did have modded, the company shouldn't replace those boards. But i would rma a board that i didnt have modified and had overclocked with. Of course it is not fun braking anything, but if its my fault i dont rma it.. I even fixed my board the latest time something happend, the atx connector and some components on the board did burn up =)
I realy need to get another workstation, i got all i need accept for a harddrive for it so i can put a computer togheter if i would realy need it just take one drive from this for example. So i guess i can handle that some hardware can smoke, i do have two others computers running but they suck one of them i got as a server and the other one the family uses and it is just a p2 400MHz..

[mdzcpa]

Originally posted by TheDude
Keeper,

I did not get the same thing from mdzcpa's post as you did. I don't think the car battery scenerio is what he was shooting for at all. You must take the post as a whole, not just what you quoted.
I think he was mostly speaking to the issue of this guy up on his soap box preaching morality to the rest of us.
"to thine own self be true" sort of thing....which is what my post was aimed at if you read between the lines. :D


Bingo! Thanks to TheDude:)

My post may be a bit off the mark as I was dicussing this guy's "article" as a whole (what I thought might have been the point of the thread), rather than commenting on my personal beliefs about RMAing borked hardware.

As I have said many times now, I do not beleive RMAing anything under false pretence is the right thing to do.

All I'm saying is that articles like that are a waste of time and energy when they "preach" from a I supposed moral highground instead of trying to influence peoples actions.

[Keeper]

I agree the holier than thou approach has been found to be ineffective time and time again, I think that peer pressure is much more effective. In that respect the holier than thou soup-box pet peeve of the week article generated a discussion among the peers. It would seem that we should be able to agree that his argument has merit even though the method may be a bit offensive to some.

I RMA’ed a MB once because of a bad power supply, and felt like a real dork about it too. I didn’t lose much sleep over it because I did not knowingly cheat the board maker. I have a XP2200+ keychain too. I recognize the variables can make some compromise unavoidable, but the basic premise that lying, cheating and stealing are wrong; I don’t question.

[mdzcpa]

Originally posted by Keeper
It would seem that we should be able to agree that his argument has merit even though the method may be a bit offensive to some.


I agree:)

[Jeff]

I like this thread. It shows what people you have things in common with. And for me, it just re-affirms what I think. ;)

[ctgilles]

I'm sorry, but I try to RMA anything I break :D and even more...

[Johnny Knoxvill]

Originally posted by ctgilles
I'm sorry, but I try to RMA anything I break :D and even more...

so do i and here's to honesty :toast:

[ctgilles]

Originally posted by Johnny Knoxvill
so do i and here's to honesty :toast:
Look, I'll try anything... If they refuse, OK :)
But one shop made me really angry, and it costed them about 600€, but they recollected the cash because I bought my dual over there :D :smileysex

[TheDude]

I have a XP2200+ keychain too.

Keeper,

I know the feeling. At least it wasn't a total loss. :D

[Kunaak]

I think one view some people need to consider is...

imagine, you own a computer store.
you sell a nice new motherboard, 2 days later they come back and tell you "it just blow up" and you look at it, and it's obviously been fried.
you know from years of experience, they don't just "blow up" or anything else, but you can't easily see any solder marks or anything else cause they cleaned it up well or used SMD grabbers or something...
but still you know it was from a volt mod of some sort.
but you still have to pay for this persons mistake and give him a new board or tell him to deal with the companys warranty.

that means, either the person that owns the shop, or the company that made the board, cause someone else wasn't taking responsibility for thier own actions.

after all, the only responsibility a company has is to get you a working motherboard for the price you pay.

every computer part is like this.
you pay the money, they get you a working part.
thier part of the job is done, they did thier part, and should have no more responsibilty to you, unless some sort of actual hardware failure is common to that board...
like the gainwards of the last year with the pink screen problem.
but other then that, if you get a PC part, and it works.
thats it. deal done, they did thier part.

anything else then this is a lie, and bending the system, to make sure You don't have to pay for your mistakes.
that to me, is just stealing.

[TheDude]

Keeper,

BTW...Alexander Carson said something similar to the quote you mentioned. I do not remember it exactly. Maybe that is who you were thinking of?

[Method Man]

I have fried a few things and have never tried to RMA...I think that RMAing something that you break is wrong and you should bite the loss.

To each his own though....to each his own :( Just hope that to many azzholes don't try to RMA things that they break because that effects "me" and everyone else so if I catch any of you doing it I will hunt you down and cut off your balls!:eek:...if you got any :p

[Keeper]

Dude

I am thinking it was Leonard Andrus who said it, it was him and John Deere that invented the steel plow. But I am wanting to be sure before making the claim.

Self justification robs a man of his ability to reason

[Hallowed]

Originally posted by Method Man
I have fried a few things and have never tried to RMA...I think that RMAing something that you break is wrong and you should bite the loss.

The problem with the whole argument is that it cannot be rationalized into "black and white."

Personally I only RMA if 1. Its a defect 2. It fails to meet specification or 3. Its easily reparable.

I.E Say I have oh... KR7A. I've been OC'ing the shiz out of it and the BIOS borks. I know I foobed it but all this great bit of hw needs is a simple BIOS flash, and I dont have an EEPROM flasher. I write that in my RMA, and the stores never have a problem with it. They flash, ask me how well it did, and send it back my way. It keeps a repeat customer and we split the infitesimal shipping cost. Thats not stealing in my book.

What irkes me are the selfish-beyond-reason kiddies that have a board that wont OC well or perhaps they want a new machine and their parents wont buy them a new one till the old one dies. So they intentionally sabotage it to RMA.

That is such blatant thievery I'd nail the bastard. I mean shiz, sell it on ebay or RMA for some other reason, don't kill perfectly working hardware because your parents wont drop an unnecessary $4000 so you can have a faster Dell to run Quake 3 at 340 FPS instead of 260.

Call me a hypocrite or whatever, but thats just IMO.

[SupaMan]

heh, funny thing is that my stuff usually never breaks when its heavily OCed, i'll be running it at no or very little OC, then poof

[Method Man]

Hallowed thats pretty much what I ment to say.


I don't see anything wrong with raming something if it only needs a bios flashing or something....but I do mind when people do volt mods and §§§§ it up and rma it....now that is WRONG:mad: or if they have watercooling and it leakes all over the board and they clean it up and rma it because the water killed it....


What rma was ment for was products that were fubar when you got them now those should be rma'd or like you said if you need the bios flashed and can't do it yourself.:)

[TheDude]

Originally posted by SupaMan
heh, funny thing is that my stuff usually never breaks when its heavily OCed, i'll be running it at no or very little OC, then poof

I'd say 99% of my RMAs have been for DOA stuff. If it works when I get it....it's usually OK...with the exception of my 2 WD 100gb 8mb cache hard drives. I have RMAed one 3 times and the other twice. I bought them the first day they became available and paid big bucks for them, I would have been very upset had they not been replaced. It was bad enough losing some data each time...funny thing is that they are for my backup server and only slightly OCed.

[ryanpgroovy]

What end's up happening is the cost is just pushed on down the line to the end user , and the warranty process becomes more stringent , causing honest people to have a hard time RMA something with a geniune problem

If people were more honest about it some of the rules manufactures put into place about there warranties would be easily avoided , and warranty periods would grow much longer

Trust me when I say in this industry with its razor thin profit margins that every penny these manufacturers loose on RMAS gets covered in the price later down the line

( end rant)

[SlimHitman]

I've never returned something that i have broken yet.I am about to RMA a NF7 that quit while i had a vdd mod on it. It was not OC'd and the vmod was ungrounded at the time it quit, so i'm not feeling too bad about RMA'ng it. Besides the Lan only worked for 2 days i should have RMA'd it a longtime ago.

I returned a CPU to a store once because it didn't OCgood, itwas a TbredA 1700+ that wouldn't do 1600mhz. I told the guy that it worked fine but that i wanted an exchange, i told him why and he started to say they weren't made for OC'ng so i explained about them being unlocked and all the OC'ng features of the mobos he sells. It ended up that they were out of the 1700 so i got a refund.

Almost all parts stores have a 15 or 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If for any reason you do not like the product they will exchange or refund it. Most say they charge a restocking fee on refunds for open box items but i haven't been charged yet and i test drove alot of parts this year.

I would never purposely damage a product to return it because it doesn't OC well though.

[Marci]

Well, I have the joyous task of telling a customer that I won't replace or refund or repair his GF4 Ti4600, as he's knocked a resistor off the card whilst removing the heatsink or fitting a waterblock.... I get it loads... CPUs returned absolutely butchered on every edge of the core... power supplies with wires melted together from bodged 7v adaptations (or floppy drive power conns forced on upside down / staggered over a pin)... graphics cards that look a significant bit less than flat... cards with uv dye stains all over them...

Think last year in RMAs probably cost O-CuK a few thousand to stroppies who start complaining to Citizens Advice and claiming "fit for purpose" laws n suchlike. Nearly made us shutdown... we just got sick of it... and then to top it all off... you get the ones who ordered it, then deny knowledge of the transaction to their bank (so they get an instant refund, we have no say... and we have to prove it was them that ordered it thru relevant legal channels, which in the UK tends to take a year or more) and THEN have the cheek to try and return the card as faulty!!!

Trust me, there's no-one worse than us British for feeling like we own a company as soon as we've bought their product.

[Keeper]

Marci,

Are you saying; being it was too large to make a key chain out of, there was something else he could do with it?

[TheDude]

Originally posted by Keeper
Marci,

Are you saying; being it was too large to make a key chain out of, there was something else he could do with it?

OUCH!!!!!:D

[jmke]

Originally posted by ryanpgroovy
Trust me when I say in this industry with its razor thin profit margins that every penny these manufacturers loose on RMAS gets covered in the price later down the line

"this industry" is trying to get every penny they can

XP1700+ / XP1800+ .. etc etc 66Mhz increase?
P4 2.4 / P4 2.53 ?

Ti4200/Ti4400/Ti4600
R9000/R9200/R9500/R9600/R9700/R9800
and then all the Pro version

etc etc etc
same with HD/Cases/soundcard .. everything

"this industry" doesn't care about technological advances, they only want your hard earned $$$

[JBELL]

I break, we all do - but I have NEVER RMA'd anything... I eat my loses. and swiftech's website brags that fact *flips finger at koolance*

[Evil_Spork]

oh eat me.... ill RMA my stuff.

the products should be able to do things like overclock without just completely breaking. besides....... im not stopping.

[gobbo]

If something genuinely breaks on me, DOA or similar, then i will RMA it!

If i've done mods on stuff, depending on the circumatances i may try to RMA it, if the company says on though, i won't be that bothered as i did break it.

[Johnny Knoxvill]

IBM wouldn't let me RMA the hard disk even though it was making a lot of noise
(wasn't a good enough reason).
so i put it in the microwave for 30 seconds on reheat ( ;) ), i tried dropping it on the floor before like 30 times - but the damn thing still worked , half way through in the microwave i saw a huge white spark for a millisecond and i thought the whole house was going to explode. I took it out, hmm fresh smell of a dead hard drive, contacted IBM and RMA'd it :toast:

it was dying anyway so no one lost out :banana:

[jinu117]

Originally posted by Johnny Knoxvill
IBM wouldn't let me RMA the hard disk even though it was making a lot of noise
(wasn't a good enough reason).
so i put it in the microwave for 30 seconds on reheat ( ;) ), i tried dropping it on the floor before like 30 times - but the damn thing still worked , half way through in the microwave i saw a huge white spark for a millisecond and i thought the whole house was going to explode. I took it out, hmm fresh smell of a dead hard drive, contacted IBM and RMA'd it :toast:

it was dying anyway so no one lost out :banana:

That is hilarious... 75GXP I presume?

I've got the other side of fence to talk about. I've destroyed my previous 9500 pro and ate the cost (since it was my fault).
Most recently though, I got REALLY BENT PIN tray CPU from Fry's. Put nice layer of AS3, try to put it in to socket and... hmmm...
flip around and gaze at horror at the ben pins. I am not talking one or 2, 2 half rows bent and 1 pin bent in different angle. It was so severe that I decided to just go to store and replace it... to my horror, they rejected it saying basically I am lying!!! My temper went up quite high of course, after yelling for half an hour, got back home, unbent it (if it got too bad I was ready to call my card company anyway) and played around little oc'ing. It didn't do to well, so went to another Fry's and exchanged it for 2.8c today (no questions asked since there was NO bent pins now -_-).
So... did I do wrong or not?

Quite frankly, I am worried about someone who is rather new at this getting the kind of chip I got and don't know or can't have the precision and guts to unbend such a bent chip... and companies won't RMA it since they safely hided themselves into their POLICY. It looks like Karma to the company selling the stuff for me that there are people who will RMA when they break it when in fact, some products that are sold are damaged and can't be RMA'd.

Note: when ever you get a new CPU, open the box up in register before signing that paper and make sure pins are not bent. I did it today when I got 2.8c. They gave me looks but I can care less. I KNOW they won't take it back if pins are bent... -_- (I bet they will take back internally damaged ones though... go figure)

[MrLavender]

Yeah, I will say it yet again, this is not a totally black and white issue. That's the same as companies refusing to RMA cores that are chipped on arrival, they just say that you must have done it when fitting the heatsink and it's impossible to prove otherwise. It works both ways.

If companies are not prepared to accept the odd RMA caused by overclocking then the solution is quite simple. Lock down the frequencies/multipliers/voltages on their products so they can't be run out of spec. Hmm, I wonder what would happen to the sales of any manufacturer that did that? They make money out of the fact that their products can be overclocked, so they should be prepared to accept a higher level of RMA's.

And look at the number of stores out there with the word overclock in their name. Good advertising with lots of "go faster" graphics but the disclaimer about breaking stuff is well hidden. (BTW, that's not aimed at you in particular Marci, just a general point about the way things are sold).

But hardware modding something is totally different from running it at some speed that has been implicitly allowed by the manufacturer, you've really got no excuse for RMA'ing it in that case.

[Royal Oaks]

If a product is OC'd, voltmodded, or altered in any way it is not morally right to RMA it. If you are going to push your rig you should be man enough to face the consequences that might arise from that. A company doesn't produce things to be pushed to the xtreme. If any product is ran out of spec it should not be RMA'd.
Now, I feel that is the way things should be. However, if I were to purchase a new 9700 or something and I OC'd it mildly and the thing busted I would RMA it. I feel if a company can't produce a product to stand up to a little torture then it isn't good enough to last in my rig. Now, this might seem like a contradiction, but I am not big into morals and ethics. I do what I want and if someone thinks it is moral or immoral, good for them.
I also think that there is a fine line between a product that has been "pushed" and one that has been "mildly OC'd" as I like to put it. I personally live by the rule that if I up the voltage on a product within reason (.2 over stock for CPU's for example) for a non-extended period of time (as in strictly for benching purposes, and/or just seeing how high the thing will go), and it fails then I will RMA it. I feel this is within reason, and with my temps under control if the thing dies it's goin back. Needless to say I really don't plan on RMA'ing a CPU in my lifetime, only because I like to buy budget chips and OC the piss outta them. This helps out with things like this, cuz if something busts I don't freak out.

The point is if you RMA something that has been modded in any way or OC'd you are cheating the company. Whether or not you can live with that is up to you, but IMO you have to set a limit for yourself in terms of how far you will go with RMA'ing. I have seen guys RMA a card 6 times until they get something that OC's to their liking. That is severely cheating a company and is pretty pathetic IMO.

Keeper, just got done reading your posts, and you seem to be religious yet philosophical at the same time. I would like to hear your views on God, and what you believe in. If you do not wish to discuss this in public feel free to PM me. I am really interested in what you have to say. :)