New DDC top from Italy

[FourDoors]

Hi guys, let me introduce to you a new product from Italy.

http://www.overclocklabs.com/images/ddc/ddctop2.jpg

and this is mine:

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/6541/smontatolatokz6.jpg

in some days i'll post some test regarding the difference beetween the normal ddc (8w) and the same DDC with OclabsTop.
Sorry, but I don't have any other top like petra or alphacool to compare.

Ciao

[Pete]

You got a PM me dude regarding this!!

Very nice i like!

[FourDoors]

you got the reply :)

[DVL73]

Ahhhh Italian sense for the design. Very nice. Me like it :)

It would not offer Ferrari-sh performance compared to other tops, but I guess that's not that much relevant as it would be rather similar. However, top marks for the design! I see that you included also the led hole. Personally, I dislike the Alphacool top design, but it does offer mount flexibility. This one is definitely perfect mach for the already great pump.

Those barbs are nice and black, but I'm not convinced about the quality. Is that your personal choice ?

If I were you, I would include M4 (or short #6/32 x 4mm thread - not sure how much clearance is there) for the purpose of mount flexibility. Ideally, if someone can bundle the top like this with the flexible anti-vibration/noise-reduction mounting system similar to this (http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/acc/012/scyhds2.html) ... that would be one seriously good product :-)

[Pete]

I just seen the video of them being made and wow, that CNC machine is a beast!!

[Nikos]

Hello to everyone, I am very happy to read positive comments about the design or the aesthetic of my creations and as I am who designed this PlexyTop, I would like to post some infos regarding this project :)

The dimensions is 62x62x19mm (metric) or 2.44x2.44x0.75inch (UNC). The flowrate with the Laing DDC Basic pump and 1mt of 12mm (like 1/2") ID tube is over 720 lt/h (190 GPH or 3.16 GPM). I think that I'll be able to post the official graphs by tomorrow for either DDC 1T and 1T-Plus pumps with the excact flowrates numbers.

To make possible this kind of performance, wasn't easy at all, I have had to design and test six different kind of prototypes and to test them in different situations to reduce noise and vibrations. The main problem during the R & D was the low mechanical resistance of the plexiglass as a material and the geometry that couldn't allowed me to catch up high-end performances. So at this point I decide to change the design way and to introduce the concept of the variable geometry as was possible into this project.

If the admins/moderators could permit me, I would like to post the link ( http://www.oclabs.com/particles.php?docid=1312 ) of the official article, if will be any kind of problems please edit my post. As you can see the variable geometry concept - I am sorry for the bad transation - allow to the pump's propeller to work in optimised conditions, here is the pics:

http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/fcamddctop3.png

http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/ddcfront.jpg

http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/ddclato.jpg

The prototypes I made was the following: direct output 6, 9, 10 and 12mm ( http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/proto1.jpg and http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/proto1.jpg ), their performance wasn't up to 600-650 lt/h (158.5-171.7 GPH) and the main problem was that the propeller doesn't worked well. The following pic will show you what i mean:

http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/confronto.jpg


So, after two month that I was worked to make possible this project, I think that I have reach a nice work :)

Kind regards, Nikolaos Kavvadias :)

[Pete]

Hey Nikos

I know we were exchaing e-mails earlyer today, is there a plan to one with 2 option on the inlet at all?

Just out of intrest but i will defo be having 7 of these. Love that video of them being made. Wish i had that CNC rig in my workshop

Pete

Edit:

Nikos's link in English (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.oclabs.com/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Doclabs%26hl%3Den)

[Nikos]

Those barbs are nice and black, but I'm not convinced about the quality. Is that your personal choice ?

Dear DVL73, these type of barbs it's our new specific design and perhaps their look remembers the common plastic barbs like delrin, nylon, pvc, etc... The material is ABS and his mechanical properties are the best one for the work we need to make either on this PlexyTop and on our other products. It's very resistence and it's about two or three times harder than other plastic material to broke. The melting point it's over 200 C degres and begins lost the resistance over 100-150 C degres, so I don't think that's will be a problem, isn't it ? I think also that if the wateblock goes over 100-150 C, then we'll not to worried about the barbs or the waterblock but for the cpu :)


is there a plan to one with 2 option on the inlet at all?

Love that video of them being made.

Dear Pete, I'm sorry but I think that I'm not be able to understand very well your question, if you may intend that you need something like a PlexyTop with two barbs for the inlet flow, then I think that you may use e common 1/4Gas Bsp double barb like this one:

http://www.theflyzone.it/Raccordi/P3158sdoppiatore.jpg

Kind regards, Nikos :)

EDIT: Pete, if you want to see some other movies and animations, you can go to the official page that you emailed us and you can click on the left side on the bottom to "Movies & animations".

[Pete]

Like the Alpha cool top. Has a central top inlet like yours does but also has an inlet next to the outlet.

I shall go check them other vid's now dude!

Still awaiting your reply about the tops!

[SiGfever]

The coveted "Blue Impeller".

Could you take some pictures of the impeller showing the suction volute?

[DVL73]

As you can see the variable geometry concept - I am sorry for the bad transation - allow to the pump's propeller to work in optimised conditions, here is the pics:
I noticed on the first version of pics that something is not exactly "right" with the area around the impeller/rotor ... but I was not quite sure if maybe it's just viewing angle or something else ;)

Interesting ...

these type of barbs it's our new specific design and perhaps their look remembers the common plastic barbs like delrin, nylon, pvc, etc... The material is ABS and his mechanical properties are the best one for the work we need to make either on this PlexyTop and on our other products. It's very resistence and it's about two or three times harder than other plastic material to broke.[ The melting point it's over 200 C degres and begins lost the resistance over 100-150 C degres, so I don't think that's will be a problem, isn't it ?Ah ... I see, that would explain. ABS is more than sufficient :) Generally, you don't need too much pressure anyway with the o-ring sealed barbs (especially on plexi surface), so risk of the barb crack is rather fictional.

Personally, I don't like the plexi + metal/silver barb combination and black barbs in your case are really nicely matched ;) (and good looking too).

[SparkyJJO]

The coveted "Blue Impeller".

Could you take some pictures of the impeller showing the suction volute?
The DDC with the blue impeller better than the one with the orange impeller?

[nikhsub1]

Blue impeller is a newer rev so it should be better in some way.

[SparkyJJO]

Blue impeller is a newer rev so it should be better in some way.
"should" be, but newer isn't always better ;)

Petra has one though that he's testing IIRC, so we'll find out.

[SlicerSV]

any chance of you guys shipping out just your barbs to people? those sound pretty dang nifty for screwing into plastics. i'm not a fan of plastic + metal either. metal barbs for metal block-tops, ABS for plastic sounds like a new rule :)

[Petra]

Petra has one though that he's testing IIRC, so we'll find out.
I should be done with enough of the testing sometime tomorrow to post some pretty PQ curves (with power consumption) :rolleyes:

...and I'll also toss in some data for the DDCT-01s (slight performance increase over the current DDCT-01 top and it provides full compatibility with the blue impellered DDC pumps). I know, it's not the DDCT-02...but you'll just have to wait for that one. :D

[Nikos]

Like the Alpha cool top. Has a central top inlet like yours does but also has an inlet next to the outlet.

I shall go check them other vid's now dude!

Still awaiting your reply about the tops!

I have had consider your request in the R & D phase and I have discovered that this choice would create some problem like more vibrations and noises when the air will traps to the secondary inlet channel, so I decide to not make a second inlet channel until I’ll be not able to solve this problem.


The coveted "Blue Impeller".

Could you take some pictures of the impeller showing the suction volute?

Is this one the pic you may want to see ? The Blue has 8.00mm (0.315inch) and the Black has 12.00mm (0.472inch) hole.

http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/elicheddc.jpg

Is this one the pic you may want to see ? The PlexyTop inlet is also 8.00mm as the Blue impeller diameter and the other dimension are 40.00mm (1.575inch) diameter that’s exactly the same as the original DDC Tops. I also made a couple of experiments with 38.00mm diameter and I see that there is a performance lost from 5 to 7% in the flow rate. As finally thing, I would like to underline that it’s impossible to go over 40.00mm because there are mechanical problems and limits.

http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/ddctopnoracc2.jpg


The DDC with the blue impeller better than the one with the orange impeller?

If the orange impeller has the same dimensions of the black one, then the orange impeller will be perform 5-7% better on the same DDC basic pump.

Kind regards, Nikos :)

[el rolio]

how does it sound?

[Pete]

I wander what happened with different inlet mods to the top of the impler. It clicp on an off with a twist so dead easy to drill it.

So could we not only see top mods but impller mods too.

I've modded me 3 wroking DDC rev 2's and very imprssed. 1 came doa

[Pete]

Thats odd as my blue has 12mm!!!

[Garrett]

Any plans for this in delrin? ;)

[Nikos]

Hello, we've just modded the Blue Impeller and make it from 8 to 12mm inner diameter. In a couple of hours will be online the first pics and after we'll be post the official results. In meanwhile you can see the FourDoors's results:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9584/tabellawi8.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1534/graficohg0.jpg

Kind regards, Nikos :)

[Pete]

I'm confused with the restults to whats what on them...can you do an English version...sorry to be picky

[ramenchef]

I believe it's liters/hour which would put it at 3.17 gpm putting it at slightly under the performance of the alphacool top unmodded.

[Pete]

Alphacool as Petras test is

DDC+ w/ stock Alphacool: 12.00V -- 3.19 Gal./min.

And Petras top

DDC+ w/ Petra's Top: 12.00V -- 3.5 Gal./min.

How ever that i belive is the pump pumping away and not in a loop as such!

Pete

[ramenchef]

Yes, and I'm using his numbers from loop 1 as I calculated it to be 1.9 gpm on a stock DDC which is roughly equivalent to Petra's 1.85 gpm or whatever on his max flow test, which would make Loop 1 have very little restriction or a similar set up as Petra's max flow rate test.

[ramenchef]

And again. DOH!

[ramenchef]

Deletes

[ramenchef]

Holy ****, the forums went nuts on me. Sorry.:slap:

[Pete]

Yeah it's been getting worse last few days

[Nikos]

Here is all the pics ( http://www.oclabs.com/pfocus.php?docid=1314 ), i've post here the following two:

http://www.oclabs.com/res/focus/1314/blueimpeller4.jpg

http://www.oclabs.com/res/focus/1314/3impellers.jpg

About the FourDoors's test: he's made in on a DDC Basic with black impeller with the original TOP (DDC 1T on the Graphs) and OCLabs PlexyTop (DDC 1T Top on the Graphs). The results of 5 loops are the following [A-> only 12mm tube, B-> with B3 PlexyBlock, C-> with B3 PlexyBlock and 6mm tubes radiator: http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7708/highcm0.jpg ]

A-> OCLabs TOP makes 720 litres/hour (190.20 GPH - 3.17 GPM) VS Original TOP makes 439.02 litres/hour (115.98 GPH - 1.93 GPM)
B-> OCLabs TOP makes 620.69 litres/hour (163.97 GPH - 2.73 GPM) VS Original TOP makes 391.30 litres/hour (103.37 GPH - 1.73 GPM)
C-> OCLabs TOP makes 375 litres/hour (99.06 GPH - 1.65 GPM) VS Original TOP makes 295.08 litres/hour (77.95 GPH - 1.3 GPM)

Now I need some time to make the tests and I'll post all the possible results ASAP...

Kind regards, Nikos :)

EDIT: For 5 LOOPS I intend 5 PASS Tests (sorry my english :()

[SiGfever]

I have had consider your request in the R & D phase and I have discovered that this choice would create some problem like more vibrations and noises when the air will traps to the secondary inlet channel, so I decide to not make a second inlet channel until I’ll be not able to solve this problem.




Is this one the pic you may want to see ? The Blue has 8.00mm (0.315inch) and the Black has 12.00mm (0.472inch) hole.

http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/elicheddc.jpg

Is this one the pic you may want to see ? The PlexyTop inlet is also 8.00mm as the Blue impeller diameter and the other dimension are 40.00mm (1.575inch) diameter that’s exactly the same as the original DDC Tops. I also made a couple of experiments with 38.00mm diameter and I see that there is a performance lost from 5 to 7% in the flow rate. As finally thing, I would like to underline that it’s impossible to go over 40.00mm because there are mechanical problems and limits.

http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/ddctopnoracc2.jpg




If the orange impeller has the same dimensions of the black one, then the orange impeller will be perform 5-7% better on the same DDC basic pump.

Kind regards, Nikos :)

Thanks for the pictures. I was interested in the volute size and your pictures tell the tale. Thanks again.

[Jochenp]

mmm, looks like you can mod the new blue impeller to match the diameter of the old black one

[FourDoors]

mmm, looks like you can mod the new blue impeller to match the diameter of the old black one

yes, you can, but we auìre not sure about the results.
About my test, if you need some explanation, please ask me.
In the table, you can se 5 different misurement, I used a 5 liter bucket to fill and 3 different loop, as said by Nikos (the tubes was 10mm inside diameter).
In the "media" row you can se the average time of the 5 isurement.
In the "portata litri/ora" you can se the calculed flow rate of the pump.
I'm sure that you can understand in a better way looking at the graph.
This was non a professional test rig, but I don't have the right instruments to do a more accurate test.
I hope than Nikos will do it better :cool:

Regards, FourDoor

[Nikos]

mmm, looks like you can mod the new blue impeller to match the diameter of the old black one

Yes, of course :) Our last tests, has confirmed that the performances of the Black Impeller (hole opening 12mm) is equal to the Blue Modded Impeller (hole opening from 8 to 12mm).

The real difference between Black and Blue Unmodded was about 50 (13.2GPH) to 65 liters/hour (17.17GPH) and depends from the PSU unit (real +12v), we've used only the DDC basic pump on a 300W and on a 420W PSU. Today we'll make some other tests on a DDC PLUS pump and we'll try also the OCZ 520W before posting final results.

Kind regards, Nikos :)

[lilneel12]

that looks nice

[[XC] Aerosupra]

Yes, of course :) Our last tests, has confirmed that the performances of the Black Impeller (hole opening 12mm) is equal to the Blue Modded Impeller (hole opening from 8 to 12mm).

The real difference between Black and Blue Unmodded was about 50 (13.2GPH) to 65 liters/hour (17.17GPH) and depends from the PSU unit (real +12v), we've used only the DDC basic pump on a 300W and on a 420W PSU. Today we'll make some other tests on a DDC PLUS pump and we'll try also the OCZ 520W before posting final results.

Kind regards, Nikos :)

but the black impeller has greater performance than a unmodded blue one, right?

[Pete]

My blue one which is on the rev2 (latest DDC out) DDC10w with the pcb 3.3 has a 12mm inlet....

[Nikos]

Hello, today we've finished the official series of tests and the results had really surprised us. We've try three different PSU unit (300, 420, OCZ 520) and the results was amazing different.

The 300watt common PSU have had only 11.50volt and when we start the DDC BASIC pump the voltage decreases to 10.95v. The same thing for the 420watt PSU that have had only 11.90volt and when we start the DDC BASIC pump the voltage decreases to 11.01v. The OCZ 520, as you already know has the trimers for the voltage, and at stock triming have had exactly 12.25volt and 12.23volt when starting the DDC BASIC pump. We’ve decrease the trimming at 12.03volts (no pump) and the tester shows 12.00-12.01volts with DDC BASIC pump working during the test sessions.

Here are some “on-the-fly” results and conclusions:

DDC BASIC 10Watt, OCLabs stock PlexyTop with 9.0ID/13.0OD mm barbs and 100cm 12ID/16OD mm tube and 25 to 30cm level difference from upper curve of the tube and the level of the pump. All the tests was made at least three times and some test was made up to five times to calculate the medium errors. I suppose that the only possible errors will be smaller from +/- 5 lt/h.

------ DDC Basic 10watt + stock Black impeller + stock OCLabs PlexyTop ------

300W PSU (10.95 working real volt) => 700 lt/hour or 185 GPM
420W PSU (11.01 working real volt) => 735 lt/hour or 194 GPM
OCZ PSU (12.01 working real volt) => 820 lt/hour or 217 GPM

------ DDC Basic 10watt + stock Blue impeller + stock OCLabs PlexyTop ------

300W PSU (10.95 working real volt) => 650 lt/hour or 172 GPM
420W PSU (11.01 working real volt) => 670 lt/hour or 177 GPM
OCZ PSU (12.01 working real volt) => 775 lt/hour or 204 GPM

I don’t think that I have to post the Blue modded impeller performances, because in our test we’ve seen the same performances of the Black stock impeller.

As I was surprised of the today results and the higher performances of this PlexyTop, I think that other people will be also surprised to read these numbers, I decide to repeat the test ASAP and film all the test procedure and put online a small divx movie.

Kind regards, Nikos :)

Edit: correct english errors

[nikhsub1]

I would suggest that this smaller inlet blue impeller will have more of an impact (of yet which is unknown) when using the stock top rather than a top inlet top. The difference in max flowrate between the two is minimal - real question is what is the max head of each impeller?

[Pete]

What do i need to do for the test as i will do it.

I have RBX with every inlet they offer and a Storm rev2, pa120.3 and pa120.1 i can use too, my pumps are moded to the 18w with the blue impler and that came as 12mm inlet as rev 2

[Petra]

I would suggest that this smaller inlet blue impeller will have more of an impact (of yet which is unknown) when using the stock top rather than a top inlet top. The difference in max flowrate between the two is minimal - real question is what is the max head of each impeller?
I'm still working on finishing up all that pump testing (PQ curves, power consumption, etc).... but the biggest changes with the DDC-3.3 are in the motor, not the impeller. You can drop the blue impeller into the DDC-2 w/custom top and you get a slight increase in head pressure, a slight drop in max flow, and a bit of a boost in the mid-range (though, I don't recommend doing this because, well, Frankenpump didn't sound happy... :rolleyes: ).

[el rolio]

(though, I don't recommend doing this because, well, Frankenpump didn't sound happy... :rolleyes: ).

HAHAHAHAHAHAH, i giggled to that one.
PETRA! make your tops quieter! actually, by the time i get to build another WC machine (2009?) hehe you'd have revised it a couple times!

[Pete]

I'm still working on finishing up all that pump testing (PQ curves, power consumption, etc).... but the biggest changes with the DDC-3.3 are in the motor, not the impeller. You can drop the blue impeller into the DDC-2 w/custom top and you get a slight increase in head pressure, a slight drop in max flow, and a bit of a boost in the mid-range (though, I don't recommend doing this because, well, Frankenpump didn't sound happy... :rolleyes: ).

Alex have you the DDC rev 2 thats the 3.3 pcb?

By the way you gotten any of my PM's?

[Nikos]

Here is our first session tests on the DDC PLUS pump:

Blue impeller + OCZ PSU (11.98 working real volt) => 900 lt/hour or 238 GPH
Black impeller + OCZ PSU (11.98 working real volt) => 970 lt/hour or 256 GPH

Tomorrow we will verify the results again before posting the graphs. Kind regards, Nikos :)

EDIT: correct GPM to GPH

[Pete]

238 has to be GPH which is 3.96GPM and which impler sizes did you use exactly, black being 12mm and blue 8mm?

[Nikos]

238 has to be GPH which is 3.96GPM and which impler sizes did you use exactly, black being 12mm and blue 8mm?

Hi Pete, yes of course, as I just told you, the blue modded = 12mm = Black stock impeller :)

So Blue stock impeller with 8.00mm inner hole on DDC PLUS has made 900 lt/h and the Black one (from DDC BASIC pump) has made 970 lt/h.

Kind regards, Nikos :)

[Petra]

3.96GPM seems about right for the rev. 3.3 motor with top and blue impeller... the main issue that I'm noticing with the 3.3 motor is that the head pressure is abysmal. I might be able to post some results today, but don't count on it.

Here's a quick example (numbers only [from the PQ curves that I've been working on] and, because this thread is about someone else's tops, I'll leave data for mine out of this example):

DDC-2TPMP (18W) with [stock] red impeller at 12.00V:
Max head pressure: 8.7psig (~20')
Max flow: 2.24 US gal./min.

DDC-3.2VCTP (18W) (note: despite the part number, this pump is using the v3.3 motor and has been modified by Laing to remove the volume compensator) with [stock] blue impeller at 12.00V:
Max head pressure: 6psig (~13.84')
Max flow: 2.2 US gal./min.


As a request to Nikos, please stop identifying the pumps by their useless PR names and just use their proper Laing model numbers--it'll make things clearer.

[SiGfever]

I would suggest that this smaller inlet blue impeller will have more of an impact (of yet which is unknown) when using the stock top rather than a top inlet top. The difference in max flowrate between the two is minimal - real question is what is the max head of each impeller?
My guess for the redesign is to limit the flow into the suction volute. I wonder if their testing showed that the larger opening loaded the pump too much causing shorter than normal life expectancy of the motor circuits?

[Petra]

My guess for the redesign is to limit the flow into the suction volute. I wonder if their testing showed that the larger opening loaded the pump too much causing shorter than normal life expectancy of the motor circuits?
Again, the big changes were all in the motor... The smaller impeller inlet doesn't seem to have much of an impact on flow. Additionally, Laing has a 1/2" straight-inlet top for the DDC that flows just as well as any of the custom tops and, just like everything I've had them look at, they've given no indication of decreased MTBF.

[[XC] Kayin]

You know, I'm thinking i want to make custom tops for my DDCs on order now, after seeing how little heavy work is required-just a lot of brain work. Looks like it's pretty blasted simple.

That's not to slight your work in the least. Both the Italian top and Petra's are functional works of art. They make me happy to see. It just makes me want to match it.

[voigts]

It isn't as simple as it looks to be.
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=456511

After making and messing up a number of tops, I have finally gotten the hang of it, bit it isn't easy. If you make a top with a round impeller chamber with a simple drill bit as the aftermarket tops do, then it would be a lot easier. I however made mine to mimic the spiral shape of the stock impeller chamber which makes it a lot harder. I just made two more tops (if I made them I do so 3 at a time so that if I'm not happy with one or two, I'm bound to get one right).

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseII/completed/Mar07Conroe/newTop1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseII/completed/Mar07Conroe/newTop2.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseII/completed/Mar07Conroe/newTopTemplate.jpg

Having said this, I am very impressed by how good the top in this thread looks. It takes very precise milling to get acrylic to look that nice.

[Pete]

Well my DDC-1T was 10W and rev 2 version with the 3.3 PCB and hasethe blue impler which has an inlet of 12mm ID yet i have been to last night that there ment to be 8mm.

What is Laining doing or who is making the mistakes here

[Nikos]

As a request to Nikos, please stop identifying the pumps by their useless PR names and just use their proper Laing model numbers--it'll make things clearer.

Hi Petra, here is the PCB numbers:

DDC BASIC: 3.3 (blue 8mm)
DDC PLUS: 3.3 (blue 8mm)

The first pic I've posted ( http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/elettronicaddc.jpg ) it was a E.4 (black 12mm) but I never use it for the tests.

Kind regards, Nikos :)

[Nikos]

Hello, here is the official tests results:

http://www.oclabs.com/res/focus/1315/ddctest.png

and here is the 985 lt/h or 260 GPH video file: http://www.oclabs.com/film/1312/ddc985lt.zip

The tests: OCLabs PlexyTop DDC-1T/1TPlus, DDC v3.3 Basic and DDC v3.3 Plus, Blue original impeller (8mm) and Blue modded impeller (12mm), 5.2lt tank, 1mt Vitryl 12/16mm silicon tube, PSU OCZ 520watt with adjusted 12.03volt (11.99-12.01volt reali) by the trimmer and a digital tester.

Kind regards, Nikos :)

[Pete]

Was that UK measurment or other?

260 GPH is 4.3 GPM

Intresting high flow there but what about presure......

[welshtom]

Was that UK measurment or other?

260 GPH is 4.3 GPM

Intresting high flow there but what about presure......

You will lose head pressure if the flow is higher.

[Nikos]

Was that UK measurment or other?

260 GPH is 4.3 GPM

Intresting high flow there but what about presure......

1 GPH = 3.785 lt/h

We've to do other tests to find the absolute pressure because I didn't find the right pressure tester yet...

You will lose head pressure if the flow is higher.

Of course there is a pressure drop, but how much ? 1% ? 5% ? 10% ? 50% ? Before we've done the pressure drop tests I don't think that we could be able to talk about the relative pressure drop and performances.

Kind regards, Nikos :)

[Pete]

Well the presure has got to be something low and weak surly with flow as high as this Nikos. Just looked at the Petra top, Alphacool and more!!

On a stock top, 18W DDC i got just over 3.75psi with a DD RBX with #5 nozle in there which is pretty restrictive.

That was the pump sucking up and the discharge just going into a container.

If Rob (that UK shop you told me about) has sent one of these with other to be ''tested'' then we hope this guy in Oz gets some decent readings but far as i see it the top is asectly pleasing but performs worse than a stock top on any DDC....

Least you did one thing and that was highlight the need for more proper voltaged and watteged working PSU's. Guess thats a starting point at least.

I wana test one now

[BigKahuna]

Hello, here is the official tests results:

http://www.oclabs.com/res/focus/1315/ddctest.png

and here is the 985 lt/h or 260 GPH video file: http://www.oclabs.com/film/1312/ddc985lt.zip

The tests: OCLabs PlexyTop DDC-1T/1TPlus, DDC v3.3 Basic and DDC v3.3 Plus, Blue original impeller (8mm) and Blue modded impeller (12mm), 5.2lt tank, 1mt Vitryl 12/16mm silicon tube, PSU OCZ 520watt with adjusted 12.03volt (11.99-12.01volt reali) by the trimmer and a digital tester.

Kind regards, Nikos :)

I can hardly believe those flow rates. Right now I'm doing some testing on my own with a quite similar test-setup to yours. I'm using the DDC v3.3 Plus with the modded blue impeller and the Alphacool-top. A flow rate of nearly 1000 litres per hour is simply impossible. That's even far behind the theoretical maximum flow rate the manufacturer gives as maximum flow rate. 500 litres per hour may be reachable but not 1000.

[Pete]

It gets better i just e-mailed Robin at Laing and he hasn;t a clue about this new version!!!

Seams DDC stuff has come toa hault till he finds out the facts, i can rework y document and we can carry on.

Bring back the DDC2 18W for love of god

[Nikos]

Hello, today we've try to do the first tests about the absolute pressure of the DDC v3.3 Basic/Plus pumps with their original and our PlexyTops (prototype and commercial). As first impression, I can tell you that there is a very small difference on the absolute pressure drop from original Laing's Top to OCLabs DDC-1T/1TPlus Top (with variable geometry) and there is a big difference of performances with the prototype (direct 12mm channel, no variable geometry).

Here is some numbers (if I remember well, because we've do those test very quickly and we've not write the numbers on a paper):

Original Vs OCLabs DDC-1T/1TPlus => about 0.03-0.04 bar
OCLabs DDC-1T/1TPlus Vs Prototype => about 0.05-0.07 bar
Original Vs OCLabs prototype => quite or over 0.10 bar

Tomorrow we'll do the tests again to verify better some of the results and we'll try also some other conditions to understand better the sensibility of the tester (0 to 1bar or 1 to 14.5psi). My last impression was that the sensibility of the tester was very high and if we move the tester up to 5 or 10cm higher, the variation was about 0.03bar or more, so we've to find a better way to have a better precision results.

As last thing, I want to tell you that we've see some lower pressure performances thant the producer says and I don't think that we're not be able to do the correct tests, because we've try over two hours and at least 50 different times between the two impellers (Blue 8 and Black 12mm) and the two pumps (v3.3 Basic/Plus). As a quick example if I remember well, I can tell you that we've not be able to see over ~0.25bar for the Basic v3.3 and over ~0.35bar for the Plus on the tester...so let's wait to try again tomorrow and to try also another couple of pumps.

I can hardly believe those flow rates. Right now I'm doing some testing on my own with a quite similar test-setup to yours. I'm using the DDC v3.3 Plus with the modded blue impeller and the Alphacool-top. A flow rate of nearly 1000 litres per hour is simply impossible. That's even far behind the theoretical maximum flow rate the manufacturer gives as maximum flow rate. 500 litres per hour may be reachable but not 1000.

Dear BigKahuna, here is the 985 lt/h or 260 GPH video file [(5.2lt / 19sec) x 3600 = 985.26 lt/h]: http://www.oclabs.com/film/1312/ddc985lt.zip

I also have the other video files from the beginning to the end of the whole procedure tests session (7 videos - 286 Mb), so if you really believe that those results are fake, why you don't try to demonstrate that they really are ? :) Here is another graph with the following numbers ( http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=135115 - http://site.petrastechshop.com/DDCT-01/maxFlow.JPG ). As you can see, there are flow rates from 3.19 to 3.60 GPM, so you can see from 724.5 to 817.5 Liters/Hour (GPM x 3.785 x 60). One last thing, I have already wrote on this topic that if the PSU unit is not be able to reach 12.00volts, the performance lost is too much.

It gets better i just e-mailed Robin at Laing and he hasn;t a clue about this new version!!!

Seams DDC stuff has come toa hault till he finds out the facts, i can rework y document and we can carry on.

Bring back the DDC2 18W for love of god

Hi Pete, can you post some numbers or more details about it ? Thanks :)

Kind regards, Nikos :)

[Pete]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/corsapete/DDCinfo.jpg


Thats what i have so far form my own DATA and talking with the German Laining guy then the German got well..Germanish so i left the sod to cool off. Tomrrow i'll get him again...i hope!

Still seams huge amount of confusion on inlet size, even the shop i got mine off are checking for me as they think it's 9mm on these new ones and not the 12mm i have...humm

Have you seen Petra's (Alex) test..?

This is the new pump that us europens have

- 18W DDC-3.2VCTP (stock) -
Max. Head Pressure: 6psig (~13.84' -- ~4.22m)
Max. Discharge (flow): 2.2 GPM

- 18W DDC-3.2VCTP w/DDCT-01s top (Petra top with a new mod) -
Max. Head Pressure: 5.6psig (~12.92' -- ~3.94m)
Max. Discharge (flow): 4.19 GPM

This the old pump we had but all thats in the USA 18W wise

- 18W DDC-2TPMP (stock) -
Max. Head Pressure: 8.7psig (~20' -- ~6.1m)
Max. Discharge (flow): 2.24 GPM

- 18W DDC-2TPMP w/DDCT-01s top (Petra top with a slight mod) -
Max. Head Pressure: 8.2psig (~18.91' -- ~5.76m)
Max. Discharge (flow): 4.11 GPM

I'm so tempted to go for the old 18w version in the USA.

I still want to test yours, i know Rob at Compoents UK has sent loads of top and pumps off to a guy to be tested. How long that takes beats me but i cann't wait as aprantly the guy has speant a lot on testing kit. What ever that is!

[Nikos]

Have you seen Petra's (Alex) test..?

Hi Pete, I have just read Alex's test and I'm trying to confronting and understand better some things of our test results. I need to do some other tests and try also the MAG 12V CSP-750, the Hydor L20 220v (0.135bar -700lt/h) and the 12v MCP-655.

I'll post some new test results ASAP, kind regards, Nikos :)

[Pete]

I don't understand how he tests presure but i might try and find out and do some of my own tests.

Will your tops be okay with the range of ddc or will they need modding like Petras older tops before he made this slight change

[Nikos]

I don't understand how he tests presure but i might try and find out and do some of my own tests.

Hi again Pete, here is the pic of the manometer we've used today:

http://www.oclabs.com/nikos/manometrowika.jpg

Our results is very different from Alex's test and I am thinking that I have to try also some other different types of those testers to see if the problem is on the tester precision or on the pumps. I really don't understand why the maximun pressure I have seen today was under 0.35 Bar of pressure.

My last test was 10 minutes ago on the other two pumps and their results has really surprised me.

- Hydor L20 (0.135bar - 700lt/h) => ~0.00 Bar
- MCP 655 (position n.1) => ~0.00 Bar
- MCP 655 (position n.3 - sensible) => ~0.10 Bar
- MCP 655 (position n.5 - max) => ~0.27 Bar

So with these kind of results on my hands, my personal opinion is that the Tester WIKA show wrong results or either DDC and MCP655 pumps don't perform as producer says.

I hope that tomorrow I'll be able to solve this problem.


Will your tops be okay with the range of ddc or will they need modding like Petras older tops before he made this slight change

When I have designed the PlexyTop, I have had in my mind to do it performs his best with the latest models of DDCs (blue impeller) and make it compatible and work very well also on the older DDCs (black/red impeller). My personal philosophy was always to make every single project works on his best capabilities now and also to the near future with no modifications on it, if possible :)

Kind regards, Nikos :)

[Pete]

Look the same as my gauges too.

Can you e-mail me some photos of your set up so i can creat the same and do some testt as i will order a top off Rob asap and some test x5 with the 10w and 18w i have here!!!

Pete

[serialk11r]

Hmmm... Pumps not registering any pressure at all on the meter?

[BigKahuna]

@ Nikos: I Never said, that you are faking. ;) I wondered why I wasn't able to reproduce those flow rates. But I think I got my mistake, I was able to get higher flow rates right now as well.

To the pressure tests: I'm using a quite similar manometer, and I got nearly the same weak results:

DDC 10W version with blue impeller (unmodded) @ Alphacool-top (unmodded): 0,34 bar

DDC 18W version with blue impeller (unmodded) @ Alphacool-top (unmodded): 0,44 bar

[Nikos]

Hello, we've just finish our quick today's tests with the new manometer tester (very sensible ~0.01 Bar in real time):

http://www.oclabs.com/nikos/manometro.jpg


Here is some quick test results (with smaller possible errors ~0.01 Bar):

First we've try the Hydor L20 (0.135 Bar) and the results was about ~0.13 to 0.14 Bar, so my opinion is that this tester works very well and perhaps works excellent!

After we've try either the DDC v3.3 Basic (10w) / Plus (18w) with Blue original impeller and the results was the following

Basic (v3.3-10w) + Original TOP => ~ 0.33 Bar
Basic (v3.3-10w) + OCLabs PlexyTop (var. geometry) => ~ 0.30 Bar
Basic (v3.3-10w) + OCLabs Prototype (12mm direct) => ~ 0.23 Bar

Plus (v3.3-18w) + Original TOP => ~ 0.43 Bar
Plus (v3.3-18w) + OCLabs PlexyTop (var. geometry) => ~ 0.40 Bar
Plus (v3.3-18w) + OCLabs Prototype (12mm direct) => ~ 0.30 Bar

So the pressure drop from OriginalTop to OCLabs PlexyTop is about 0.03 Bar on Basic v3.3/10w and about 0.03 Bar on the Plus v3.3/18w. I think that these errors could be smaller than 0.01 Bar of pressure, tonight we'll try to do some tests on other pumps and to find the best way for standar procedure test either for us and for you (if you want or need to repeat our tests).

@ Pete: I'll try to make a pic file to post it here, sorry for the pics but we've really no time to make it today and yesterday

@ Serialk11r: Yes that's it, we've never seen 0.05 Bar at all, now I am quite sure that the first tester we've used have had obviously errors, otherwise it's impossible to don't show at least 0.05 or 0.1 Bar on the Hydor L20 test. Yesterday we've decide to bought it because the resseller said that was more stable and was more sensible than the other testers, now we've the demonstration that his words wasn't true at all...

@ BigKahuna: That's no problem at all, as you have already see yeasterday, I tried to help you understand the reason of your different results. The main problems I have seen untill now was the following: wrong tester, wrong voltage, relative wrong tester position.

Kind regards, Nikos :)

[Pete]

Nikos which top in your tests of the OCLabs top is the one can buy...you list std ddc top, OCLabs PlexyTop (var. geometry) and the OCLabs Prototype but if your not testing the top we can buy then what use are the results to us...dont mean to sound nasty.

Can e-mail me the photo if you want to keep it on QT

OCLabs Prototype 4.351 PSI..shocking!!!!

[Nikos]

Nikos which top in your tests of the OCLabs top is the one can buy...you list std ddc top, OCLabs PlexyTop (var. geometry) and the OCLabs Prototype but if your not testing the top we can buy then what use are the results to us...dont mean to sound nasty.

Can e-mail me the photo if you want to keep it on QT

OCLabs Prototype 4.351 PSI..shocking!!!!


Hi Pete, I am sorry for the misunderstanding that I've create with the different codenames of the PlexyTops, here are the needed explanations:

I put in the pressure test results also the Prototype ( http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/ddctoplato12mm.jpg ) with 12mm direct channel only for one reason, to help you understand better the really difference and the importance on the performances of the new concept of the variable geometry I have used on the commercial PlexyTop ( http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/fcamddctop3.png - http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/ddclato.jpg ) :)

The OCLabs commercial PlexyTop (the only one you will be able to buy in Italy or in other countries) is the DDC-1T/1TPlus and this is also the Top that have Rob on his shop but without our Black ABS 1/4 BspGas barbs.

As I don't like to speak about competitors products, I decide to not comment the competitors choices about their Tops design, I also didn't like to mention other Tops and confronting them in our tests, that's why I put our prototype results here, for the demonstration of the common design on it (not variable geometry). If I remember well, I already mention at the beginning of this topic why I have chosen the variable geometry concept and as you can see the performance results are perhaps the best one :)

- OCLabs Prototypes (never sold one of them): ( http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/proto1.jpg - http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/proto2.jpg)
- OCLabs PlexyTop DDC-1T/1TPlus (we sell only this one): http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/fcamddctop3.png - http://www.oclabs.com/res/articles/1312/ddclato.jpg )

I report the results here again: the pressure drop from OriginalTop to OCLabs PlexyTop DDC-1T/1TPlus is about 0.03 Bar on Basic v3.3/10w and about 0.03 Bar on the Plus v3.3/18w, I think that these errors could be smaller than 0.01 Bar of pressure.

Please give me some time to prepare the testing Pic and I'll post it ASAP, kind regards, Nikos :)

[Petra]

Couple things that I would like to point out as far as testing goes... First off, bar isn't the best suited unit for this sort of testing (especially since you're looking at performance differences that would require precision down to about 0.007 bar)--a gauge scaled in kPa or PSIG would be much more useful (like the ones that I use). Additionally, your current gauges aren't precise (or accurate) enough for the measurements that you're taking. You can't claim 0.01 bar accuracy and/or precision in testing when you're using a gauge that's marked at every 0.05 bar (~0.73 PSIG) and has 3/2/3% (low/mid/high scale) accuracy (ASME B40.100 Grade B).

The gauge that I'm using (seen below) is considerably better for the application (though, still not ideal)--marked every 0.2 PSIG (~0.14 bar), it's easily read down to 0.1 PSIG (~ 0.007 bar) and is accurate to + or - 1% of span (ASME B40.100 Grade 1A).

http://site.petrastechshop.com/images/psig.jpg

As for mentioning other's products, I end up making direct comparisons because, if I'm going to spend my time designing something, then I'm going to design it to match or beat my competition (otherwise, I'm just wasting my time). Unfortunately, in the arena of PC water cooling, manufacturers tend not to do nearly enough credible performance testing, which is why I end up spending so much time testing competing products.

As such, I really appreciate that you're making an effort to gather good performance data for your product because it increases your credibility and shows that you're actually trying to develop a quality product--unlike many others. For this, I commend you and your efforts and hope that you will remain open to suggestions that may help you in your testing and product designing. :thumbsup:

[Nikos]

Dear Alex, thank you for your suggestions, I really appreciate your post and your comments :) Unfortunately I live in Italy and here isn’t easy to find someone with an open mind mentality and of course it’s more harder to find the right precision instruments and accessories. Another thing that is different is the METRIC System that is totally different from your UNC System, as example here the UNC screws is quite impossible to find and if you find something you have to pay it up to five times than the metric screws.

I suppose that your opinion about competitors is totally different than mine, you are living in USA and not in Italy, as example I can tell you that I’m trying to find the way to make some Waterblock round up from several years and no one of my competitors would ever like to see that thing and when I finally decide to begin the round up and start to put online my own tests, the reaction of my bigger competitor was to send me a warning letter that will bring me to court if I will ever say or put online the results of his products and as he writes on that letter, my tests will be illegal because I didn’t asked him to have his positive confirmation about the tests I want to make. As I already write before I live in Italy, not in USA…by the way...I have already buy over 20 waterblock from other brands and when my lawyer will give me the green light I’ll start to put online immediately the waterblocks round up tests in 100% real conditions and 0% simulations.

I really appreciate to speak with you and also with anyone wants to speak about precision, as it’s one of my favourite arguments, as example I can link you one of my last absolute precision tests with this tester (http://www.oclabs.com/particles.php?docid=1280 ) and this results 0.01C precision in real time (http://www.oclabs.com/particles.php?docid=1296 ).

Now about the WIKA manometer and the precision of 0.01 Bar I would like to emphasise a couple of things. My primary problem is that I really don’t know where to go to find a tester like yours because my supplier didn’t have one or other testers except those two that I’ve already tried and post here, when I will have some free time I'll try to search again in other places. I suppose that the problem was when I said that probably will be 0.01 Bar error and I don’t emphasise what kind of error could be like. I have supposed that probably some errors could be easily found on the relative absolute vertical position of the tester because we didn’t create an appropriate stand to put the tester on it and to fix the level distances between water level and tester level. We also didn’t sealed the tubes and the barbs to be sure at 100% that will be not pressure lost at all and as I wrote before that was only a quick test to understand if the new tester will show us the “right” results or not.

Another thing that I would like to report here about the precision is that the Metric M4 screws that European producers use is about 3.83mm thin when the DDC body holes are about 4.45mm, so I’m sure that there could be also another error of about 0.2-0.5mm on the positioning of the suction and the volute of every Top that uses the Metric M4 screws and as I never seen a M4.5 screw I don't think that someone could be able to fix this problem.

Since the first moment I heard about pressure tests, I immediately thought that the best way to reach the most realistic results with real ~0.001 Bar/Atm error is the following: we just need a 4mt ladder and to put about 5mt of transparent tube on a wall at a vertical position or above an appropriate stand and start the pump to see the equalization of the vertical water level. In other words 1 Atm/Bar ~ 10mt or 1.000cm, so if the real original Top's pressure will be about 0.4 Bar, then the water level will be stop at ~ 400cm. As I would like to do also this real condition test, I will ask in the factory if they will permit me to do it on their wall.

As a last thing I would like to say that the real difference between the normal testers and the testers with the liquid glycerin (or dense liquids inside them), is that the first one gives you the real time results when the second one tries to simulate and give you the medium of the lower/upper peak results. As a common example, I would like to propose you to test the Hydor L20-700lt/0.135Bar with those two different testers. As the L20 is a weak pressure pump and the design of their impeller is based on five shovels with a distance of 13mm each one, you will be able to see the real time pressure drop and the mechanical tolerances only with the normal tester. I really don’t want to say that normal testers is more precise than the liquid testers but I already have had a bad experience with them on my own tests two days ago and of course the DDC has more costant performance than other aquarium pumps.

Dear Alex, I suppose that for me will be more easier to go to the Postal office and send you directly a PlexyTop, there will be no problem at all if you would like to try one and make your direct tests on it, I’ll prefer to don’t loose my time to searching the right tester here in Italy because I am quite sure that I will not be able to find it.

Sorry for the long post, kind regards, Nikos :)