Got the tools, Well... the expensive ones, BUT I need you guys to look at my parts

[Exahertz]

My Tools For The Job:


*Copper Tube Benders from 1/8" - 5/8"

*Butane Tourch with a lot of refill!

*Flanging tool

*R-12 R-22 R-502 Yellow Jacket AC Ritchie Gauge Manifold
http://www.acsource.com/ProductImages/41339Lg.jpg

*Vacuum Pump: Welch 1402 two stage vacuum pump. (2X10^-4 torr)
http://www.davis.com/ItemJpg/WV1402B46-L3-1.JPG

and any other tools you guys suggest. so please suggest away :worship:


Here's What I'm Working With:


http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/laserskys/compressor.jpg
This is a compressor i pulled form a working 10 year old full size fridge. The compressor pulls an inrush current of 8.6 amps @ 115vac and 3.3 when it stabllises. so its running at 379.5 watts. Then to convert to horse power: 379.5/745.7 = no more than 0.5 HP (and given the efficiency factors probabily less).

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/laserskys/condenser2.jpg
The condenser came with the compressor, however I dont feel its sufficient. the compressor will run very hot even when im using fans to keep the condenser cool. lets say ~140 degrees F (very hot to the touch!) so I think i need a better condenser with more cooling efficiency. what can i get one out of? i was thinking that a window AC unit might be a good place to start. i was looking at the one in one of my AC units and it looks kind of like this:
http://www.innerauto.com/includes/images/Inner_Auto/GMC_Parts/condenser.jpg
but if i have to ill get one suited for the job. are nice condensers expensive?

Now im currently ordering 20' of 1/4" copper tubing so i may re-design the entire system. is that all ill need? or will i need different sizes? and what size cap tube will i need?

Well here's one of my BIG questions. I want to use flexible stainless stell tubing to make the connection to my evaporator but i cant find a vender who supplys it. besides, how do you make the connections? NPT, flare or something else? i know copper wolnt braze to stainless. and about how much will a 5' to 7' peice run me price wise$


Tricks Of The Trade/Need To Knows


*I read someware that you change the compressor's oil when you change the refridgerant. is that true? how is it acomplished?

*when cleaning the system by pumping it down under vacuum. what level of vacuum do you need to achieve (in Torr).

*which side do you pump from (sucktion line or cap tube)?

*will the oil be sucked out of the compressor at all?

*Can any compressor use any refridgerant?

*how hot sould a compressor run after a period of 24 hours?

*how do you know when a compressor has reached the end of its life?


Feel free to add your :2cents: to this post, but even free'er to answer to it

[runmc]

Welcome to XtremeSystems :)

Your off to a good start - you came to the right place.;)

[Exahertz]

hey thanks runmc, yea i foregot to mention that this is my first post here...

[star882]

*Butane Tourch with a lot of refill!
You'll want a MAPP torch at least.

*I read someware that you change the compressor's oil when you change the refridgerant. is that true? how is it acomplished?
Only if the oil got contaminated or if you're changing the oil type. Simply tip it out (or pump it out with a tool) and add a little in. Shake the compressor, the pour it back out. Add the oil after brazing all the pipes.

what level of vacuum do you need to achieve (in Torr).
0.5 (500 microns) is the standard.

*which side do you pump from (sucktion line or cap tube)?
Both the high side and low side.

*will the oil be sucked out of the compressor at all?
No.

Can any compressor use any refridgerant?
As long as the pressures are within range, any common refrigerant will work. Note that the oil must also be compatible.

*how do you know when a compressor has reached the end of its life?
When it doesn't work.

[skootyloops]

I'll be watching this thread with enthusiasium. I always wanted to get into extreme cooling and I have access to a lot of parts which would seem to be good for this :)

[johann]

Couple of quick things, Butane torch will not work for proper brazing, get MAPP

You can braze stainless to copper, we all do it succesfully by using high silver (40%+) with flux

[qdemn7]

Got a question, what are the mounts of the compressor composed of to reduce vibration and noise? I'm guessing rubber, but has anyone ever tried Sorbothane?

[expansionvalve]

*when cleaning the system by pumping it down under vacuum. what level of vacuum do you need to achieve (in Torr).



Sorry to be such an old stick but I felt the terminology was slightly adrift here, pumping down is a term used for when the liquid line is shut off either by a hand valve or a solenoid valve, the refrigerant is pumped into the high side/liquid line of the system. A system in pumped down condition will store the gas on the outletside of the compressors discharge reed valve, condenser (receiver if it has one)and the closed valve on the liquid line. It is possible to evacuate a system in the pumped down condition but here, the only parts of a system that can be evacuated are the low side which includes the larger bulk of the compressor shell, the evaporator and the liquid line to the point of where the valve is shut, with regard to vacuum level. It is usually not always possible to reach low vac condition whilst a system is pumped down as there is usually a small ammount of seepage through the reed valve back into low side, if the compressor is new, the reed should be able to seal tight reducing back leakage, but on the whole, it's not always possible to achieve a good level of vacuum whilst pumped down.

[Brettbeck]

Your condenser looks big enough to me, probably just needs a fan to increase the airflow through it.




*how hot sould a compressor run after a period of 24 hours?


This will depend on how much refrigerant is in the system. Also, if no load is being applied to the evaporator you may get liquid return, in which case the compressor wouldn't get hot at all.



Got a question, what are the mounts of the compressor composed of to reduce vibration and noise? I'm guessing rubber, but has anyone ever tried Sorbothane?

Yes the feet are normally rubber :).

[andre X_X]

anyone can explain about what kind of oil to use on a certain gas, for instance R134a should use POE oil...
also what kind of gas can we use on a certain Compressor, for example, dont charge R410 on R22 comp. im still confuse on these things.
what compressor (R134a, R22, R12, etc) should be use with R404a/R502a??
thx

[Moc]

R12, R22, R502 = CFC/HCFC = mineral oil
R134A, R404A, R507, R407C, R410A... = HCF = POE oil

Some refrigants like are blends like R402A (contains R290 [and R22]) with can be used in all oils. So R402A works in POE and mineral oil.

Hydrocarbonats like propane (R290), propylen (R1270), ethylen (R1150) or isobutane (R600A) ethane (R170) work in all typ of oils (mineral and poe)!!

[andre X_X]

THX a lot for the info, now, as we know there are many types of compressor i.e. R22 comp, R404a comp, R12comp, and R134a comp.
how do we know that a certain compressor cant be used by a certain gas... for instance an R22 comp cant be charged by R410a, is it because of high pressure on R410a?

[Exahertz]

yea that was kinda what i was wondering. but i also have that question kind of in reverse, how do you know what refridegerant is in a given compressor assuming it had never been changed? i've looked over my compressor and i see a few numbers and stickers but i cant determine what they stand for.

[andre X_X]

well as i know all compressor has info outside (mostly in the sticker), what kind of compressor it is i.e. an A/C comp. has R22 comp. and it has R22 gas on it, a Referigator has R134a and it has R134a gas, and so on... cmiiw

[Exahertz]

yea its an old Referigator compressor, so i guess its r134a. im able to convert the gas to something that will run even colder with out a problem? as long as i change the oil to work with the gas too?

how do you change the oil on one of these compressors?

[andre X_X]

yea its an old Referigator compressor, so i guess its r134a. im able to convert the gas to something that will run even colder with out a problem? as long as i change the oil to work with the gas too?
im preety sure its an R134a, anyway how old it is? more than 15years? it might also an R12 comp if your old referigator ages arround 15-17yrs... LOL :p:
R404a is a good gas i think, you even dont need to change the oil since its already POE, except your oil is turning bad...


how do you change the oil on one of these compressors?
maybe some experetise guys here can answer??

[wdrzal]

yea that was kinda what i was wondering. but i also have that question kind of in reverse, how do you know what refridegerant is in a given compressor assuming it had never been changed? i've looked over my compressor and i see a few numbers and stickers but i cant determine what they stand for.

The correct term for the numbers on the compressor is the"compressor nomenclature" There is NO universal code,each company has its own, coded in the numbers are usually cooling data and electrical data. they contain all or some of the following :model#,btu's, refrigerant,electrical data ,volts, hz, LRA ,FLA,hp

Each company is different in what it spells out and what it codes.You need the compressor nomenclature to get the full information on compressor.If you know the nomenclature then you have the compressor basics, but not the total information,which must be looked up.

[[486]]

if its 134 you shouldnt need to change the oil because its probably poe and is compatible with everything, just dont let the tubes sit open

[Exahertz]

yea, if i drain the compressor of its refridegerant, can i just cap the tubes off? or is there another way of letting it sit?

[Exahertz]

also what is this tube sticking out of the compressor?

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/laserskys/compressor-oil.jpg

its not for the oil is it? because id really like to know how to change the oil on this unit. i read a thread here about changing oil but theres a lot of components you guys talked about that i dont know how to gain access to yet or if there even in this unit (example is service port shraeder valve). and what about the open low side connection, do i just leave the condensor side open and let moisture and air get in to the pump?

[runmc]

It's easy to change the oil. You disconnect the suction line or open the service port and pour the oil out.

Go read this (http://www.refrigerationbasics.com/1024x768/contents.htm) and check back in when your finished. ;)

I'm being nice - not rude :)

[andre X_X]

Exaheartz, where is your Evaporator??
@all: is there a specific size of evaporator? i mean the wide (diameter) and the height. i read that commonly people use 38mm diameter, what about lower than that i.e. 32mm (1/4'), and what would be the effect if the evaportor is too small?... thx

[Exahertz]

Im building a direct DIE evap.

BTW, i just researched my compressor and found out that its a 1/5 HP R22 tecumseh ae150at or ae1380a.

will this still work? or should i invest in a better r134a compressor?

[andre X_X]

R22 comp is good also, you can use pure R22 or you can mix it a little with R290 so you get good heat capacity, smoother oil flow, lower discharge temperature.

[Exahertz]

Really??? R22 freon is that good. i thought it has been replaced with more effieient refridgerents. either way, all the freon 22 is still in my "fridge" setup. how can i re-use the freon 22 when i make my direct DIE evap?

this is a long shot (and please dont lauge) but, can the compressor pump the R22 into some kind of tank via the high side? then when i build the system i want i could just refill the lines with that tank? even if i lose a little r22 in the process my system's going to be smaller (from large area evaporator to direct DIE CPU mount). ive never done it before so :shrug: but i dont think i can get my hands on R22.

how hard is it to get a license?

[Exahertz]

nevermind the part about me not being able to get R22, my neighbor just gave me a full bottle!!!

[andre X_X]

nothing beats free stuff :)
R22 is very good for holding temps on high heat source, once you mix it a little with r290 you'll got a very cheap but good single stage :)...
my guess, use a 2.8-3m of 0.031' captube, it could hold arround 180-200w on -35c to -40c evap temp.

[wdrzal]

nothing beats free stuff :)
R22 is very good for holding temps on high heat source, once you mix it a little with r290 you'll got a very cheap but good single stage :)...
my guess, use a 2.8-3m of 0.031' captube, it could hold arround 180-200w on -35c to -40c evap temp.


could you explain why you would want to mix r290 with r22???????

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Really??? R22 freon is that good. i thought it has been replaced with more effieient refridgerents. either way, all the freon 22 is still in my "fridge" setup. how can i re-use the freon 22 when i make my direct DIE evap?

this is a long shot (and please dont lauge) but, can the compressor pump the R22 into some kind of tank via the high side? then when i build the system i want i could just refill the lines with that tank? even if i lose a little r22 in the process my system's going to be smaller (from large area evaporator to direct DIE CPU mount). ive never done it before so :shrug: but i dont think i can get my hands on R22.

how hard is it to get a license?

Freon is a dupont trade name for R-12, to be picky, best to simply state R-22 or refrigerant, now days freon is losely used to refer to all types, but to avoid any confussion Freon is Duponts R-12.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

could you explain why you would want to mix r290 with r22???????


It will lower discharge temp and pressur by a tiny amount, better to skip the R-22 and just use R-290 and get the full effect!

R-22 definately has its place in larger systems, but then again when having a better refrigerant that is cheaper and safer to the environment it is hard to see R-22 as valuable at all now days aside from using it blended.

[andre X_X]

could you explain why you would want to mix r290 with r22???????

well i guess just a little r290 will lower the discharge temps a little and smoother the oil... i read it somewhere... would you give me better solution?
Pure R290 is also very good, but its very dangerous, might cost you your life...booom.. :p:

[Xeon th MG Pony]

well i guess just a little r290 will lower the discharge temps a little and smoother the oil... i read it somewhere... would you give me better solution?
Pure R290 is also very good, but its very dangerous, might cost you your life...booom.. :p:

the earth shatering screw up that one must perform to achive danger is insurmountable, and should they manage it, well the gene pool will be better off ;) IE there is no way that even a half a*sed system should even present a small risk, and if they can not even achive a system sufficient enough for R-290 they best walk away as their work will be of such poor level ANY refrigerant will be a danger to them self!

Long story short there is no danger, other then the maker, and if that is the case any gass will be dangerus.

[n00b 0f l337]

Increased oil circulation can also mean a longer system life too.

Course it is dangerous.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

It is only dangerus to thoughs who do not learn what they do well, in which case frankly they aut not even be making systems at all if they can not assemble some thing correctly. any refrigerant leaking harms our atmosphere and as such is "dangerus" and many other facters, to say one gas is more dangerus then another is ignorant. All gases are just gases it is the user who is either safe or dangerus, and if one is going to be handling gases they should know how to handle them.

I am greatly annoyed at how it is being said it is the substance that is dangerus, it is the user, we all lose our freedoms due to anothers incompitance becouse of that thinking, they assume the substance is the danger rather then the person handling it!

[Exahertz]

Ok, well I have a full tank of R-22, so I'm at least going to use that first. Maybe later (or if I get my hands on some R-290 before I’m done building the system) ill combine refridgerants.

But hey SEARIOUS QUESTION!!!

If both the high and low sides of a compressor are exposed to atmosphere, what do you do next to store it?

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Cap off the ends with any thing that will seal air tight, that or crimp them and soft solder them shut for now.

[wdrzal]

Freon is a dupont trade name for R-12, to be picky, best to simply state R-22 or refrigerant, now days freon is losely used to refer to all types, but to avoid any confussion Freon is Duponts R-12.


Really :slap: :nono: thats enough on that, you better by a book too.

I better explain: Dupont was the first major manufacturer of refrigerants. it called ALL its refrigerants "Freon" followed by their chemical composition and a R number, (R for refrigerant) R-12,R-22,R-502 etc like many product, the first major manufacturer or the inventor it gets called by the name it was first given. Freon in the trade is any refrigerant,technically its any Dupont refrigerant.

just like a lot of hvac guy will refer to the overload device as a "klixon" it a thermal overload but since "Klixon" is a major company that supplies a large part of the market a klixon & overlod protector are the same. if some says the klixon went bad,its the overload protector they are talking about even tough klixon makes thousand of parts.. I could go on and on.

[Exahertz]

lol, im gonna get this CD like RUNMC said to get
refrigeration basics (http://www.refrigerationbasics.com/)
it looks awsome!!!

[wdrzal]

It will lower discharge temp and pressur by a tiny amount, better to skip the R-22 and just use R-290 and get the full effect!

R-22 definately has its place in larger systems, but then again when having a better refrigerant that is cheaper and safer to the environment it is hard to see R-22 as valuable at all now days aside from using it blended.


Think what you just said,r290 "lowers discharge temps'????????????????? Now why would discharge temps be lower?????...........I'll answer that since xeon seems to be wrong. .......discharge temps are lower with r290 because it dose not pick up as much heat as r22.

If your running the same compressor at the same RLA the only reason r22 gives off more heat is because it picked up more heat.

or did "Puff the magic Dragon" supply the "extra heat" ??????

"Energy can neither be created or destroyed" "Energy is mutually convertible"

first law of thermodynamics.

About the only reason to use r290 is because you can't buy better refrigerants.It flammable and can be very dangerious to those who don't know all the dangers or think they do.:stick:

[Exahertz]

Ok so that settles it, I’m sticking with R-22. Thanks WD. I don’t know enough yet to play around with R-290. And it sounds like its not all that great. Plus I got R-22 for free so that’s a good omen.
BTW I see you like to quote the laws of thermo dynamics often, are you an engineer or physicist?
Because no matter how hard you try, you’ll never break even. And that is to be considered in all attempts.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

screw it, I'll try and get the old engineer in here, get him computer literat, I wont bother with wrdl, since he's not going to liscen to any one but his own world.

Or at the very least he'll be able to say it in a more cohearant way then I am.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Think what you just said,r290 "lowers discharge temps'????????????????? Now why would discharge temps be lower?????...........I'll answer that since xeon seems to be wrong. .......discharge temps are lower with r290 because it dose not pick up as much heat as r22.

If your running the same compressor at the same RLA the only reason r22 gives off more heat is because it picked up more heat.

or did "Puff the magic Dragon" supply the "extra heat"

"Energy can neither be created or destroyed" "Energy is mutually convertible"

first law of thermodynamics.

About the only reason to use r290 is because you can't buy better refrigerants.It flammable and can be very dangerious to those who don't know all the dangers or think they do.:stick:


realy By thor! Better get down to Europ and let them on to that big secret, Gues whole ton of their engineers didn't know that! OH and better let the natural gas industry know too! My what danger they are in, and so many more industries.

Oh you missed the majourly good reason to use R-290, Environmentaly sound and safe with a far lesser GWP and no ODP then R-22 has lower discharge using less power and nice capacity, not to mention Europ pluse the Uk will be phasing it compleatly out and Hope fully Canada follows suite as fast as pluasible.

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4543 < Oh and let thees guys know that too.

for a system as tiny as most built and how hape hazerdly some release it, it is far better to use then to continue to dump any ODP refirgerant.

PS: Lets take this battle out side of his thread, I never intended for the OPs thread to get jacked like this.

[wdrzal]

r22 hcfc is already on the schedule to be scheduled out, cfc's like r12 can be only charged with existing or recycled refrigerant as no new cfc could be produced after dec 31 1995. hcfc will be the next to go but because they are determined to due only moderate damage and so many units use them worldwide it will take 20 to 30 years to phase out hcfc's like r22. by jan 1 2010 they are hoping to cut hcfc use by 50 to 65%. I can't recall the last production day, then current and recycled hcfc's will be allowed as cfc's are now.

hc refrigerant require special compressor design and electrics for safety, they are being used in Europe but so far the USA won't allow refrigerant with a flammability above a set limit.....% for safety. the USA is always consecrative when it comes to safety, that why small appliances are 120volt in the USA and 220 volt in Europe. The USA consider 220 volt to high a voltage and to dangerous for can openers toasters,lights and the like. almost every home has 240 volt in the USA but its used primarily for dedicated circuits like electric stoves & ovens,dryers, hot water tanks and A/c over 18,000 btu is 220volt.

[wdrzal]

Ok, well I have a full tank of R-22, so I'm at least going to use that first. Maybe later (or if I get my hands on some R-290 before I’m done building the system) ill combine refridgerants.

But hey SEARIOUS QUESTION!!!

If both the high and low sides of a compressor are exposed to atmosphere, what do you do next to store it?

first mixing gases and you do not have a pressure/temperature chart to charge correctly and check performance, you need a P/T chart to calculate sub cooling and superheat.

as to sealing if it has mineral oil,just crimp shut,the vacuum pump will deal with any moisture latter. but other oils that are very hygroscopic you need to seal with a better crimp(special tool).or you will need to install at lest 1 schrader valve,as you heat to braze to keep out moisture, pressure will build from the heat and you will never get a leak free seal.remove core, install schrader valve,replace valve core in when cool. then braze other open tubes shut, would not hurt to pull a vacuum on compressor at this point especially if your going to save any of the ester oils.

[runmc]

Exahertz-

R290 is clean propane.
A stick of dynamite is safer in the hands of an expert handler than it is in the hands of a inexperienced handler, but it's not safe. Even the experienced dynamite handler can make a mistake no matter how careful he is.
My suggestion to you would be to study Refrigeration Basics and use the R22 (refrigerant22) that you now have. It is against the law to dump R22 into the atmosphere, so take proper procedures in handling it.

[Moc]

It is against the law to dump R22 into the atmosphere, so take proper procedures in handling it.
He is a "noob" in phase change and i don't think that he has a recycling unit!
So please be friendly to our atmosphere an use propane! Thats my optinon... i know wdrzal hates this. :slapass:

[runmc]

He is a "noob" in phase change and i don't think that he has a recycling unit!
So please be friendly to our atmosphere an use propane! Thats my optinon... i know wdrzal hates this. :slapass:

He just bought a vacuum pump didn't he? :up:

[wdrzal]

why would any r22 end up leaking into the atmosphere???? if he follows procedures and leak test before he adds the gas. if you don't have leaks you dont need a recycle unit.

I purchased another one so I have my own here at the house,even that I have 3 more a half blockaway, I used it about four times for a total of 3 or 4 pounds recovered,replaced a evap in my parts truck and fixed 3 window units for freinds, one there was no gas to recover,a guy bought a brand new 12,000 btu unit and he seen water about 1" up on the condensor. it comes from the evap and lays in a tray to help with subcooling and to be sure a constant supply of refrigerant is available to cap tube. he didn't think the water should be there and drainwas blocked ,so he drilled a hole in the pan,right through into the 3/8 tube.spent 250.00 on unit and 8 month pregnent wife was very un-happy in 100 degree heat. 30 minuit fix,braze hole shut,evac to 300 microns then charge to 14.6 oz of R22. used process tube adapters and crimp tool so no schrader valve was added,system is complety welded closed again.

It much safer for those who never handled gases before, most of you guys don't know 1% of the possable dangers.

[Moc]

He just bought a vacuum pump didn't he? :up:
What do you want to tell me? I think without recycling unit you should not use R22 because its so bad for the environment!

@Wdrzal
What will he do with the gas when he wants to change sth. at his "single stage" (don't remember the correct word :( ) without having a recycling unit... :fact:
Do you now if he pressure test his work? Not everyone has nitrogen or argon for testing...

:)

[runmc]

Moc - I was trying to say if he can buy a vacuum pump he can buy a recovery unit or he can make one.

Don't take risk doing things the dangerous way. If your going to do something spend the money and do it right or just don't do it. Why do something half-a$$ed:confused:

[Moc]

I got my welch 1402 for free .....

When somebody asks question like


*Can any compressor use any refridgerant?

I don't think he's able to build a recovery unit...
I only want to say that I don't want people to destroy our nature only because he's to silly to use dangerous refrigiants like R290.

My english is to bad to discuss with you :( sry.

[Exahertz]

no i cant make a recovery unit at this moment, however i can take it to someone that can do it for me!

besides, dont some spray cans still use cfcs? thats a bad thing i know but a little leaking is like going outside and spray painting my lawn chairs. but ill be as carfull as i can. as long as i have good teachers.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

no i cant make a recovery unit at this moment, however i can take it to someone that can do it for me!

besides, dont some spray cans still use cfcs? thats a bad thing i know but a little leaking is like going outside and spray painting my lawn chairs. but ill be as carfull as i can. as long as i have good teachers.

Now days most use (YOU GUESED IT!) a mixture of hydrocarbons for spray foams and paints, often it is R-290 mixed with R-600a to a certain %, for shaving cream or food stuffs they use nitruse Oxide or CO2.

Here in BC caned gas for air brushing is a mixture of R-290 & R-600a, in what perportions is tightly guarded by the maker. For air dusters we use R-134a (sadely as the GWP is very high) and we use R-159a which is not as bad as R-134a.

[Carlz0r]

I better explain: Dupont was the first major manufacturer of refrigerants. it called ALL its refrigerants "Freon" followed by their chemical composition and a R number, (R for refrigerant) R-12,R-22,R-502 etc like many product, the first major manufacturer or the inventor it gets called by the name it was first given. Freon in the trade is any refrigerant,technically its any Dupont refrigerant.


Actually, wdrzal, Freon was only for duponts CFC based refrigerants, not all of them. They refer to R134a as Suva 134a, for example, and R423A as Isceon 39TC. Here's the list, taken directly from dupont itself:
ISCEON&#174; MO29 (R-422D)
ISCEON&#174; 39TC&#174; (R-423A)
ISCEON&#174; MO49 (R-413A)
ISCEON&#174; MO59 (R-417A)
ISCEON&#174; MO79 (R-422A)
ISCEON&#174; MO89
Suva&#174; 95 (R-508B)
Suva&#174; 123 (R-123)
Suva&#174; 124 (R-124)
Suva&#174; 134a (R-134a)
Suva&#174; 134a Mobile
Suva&#174; 236fa (R-236fa)
Suva&#174; 404A (R-404A)
Suva&#174; 407C (R-407C)
Suva&#174; 408A (R-408A)
Suva&#174; 409A (R-409A)
Suva&#174; 410A (R-410A)
Suva&#174; 507 (R-507)
Suva&#174; HP80 (R-402A)
Suva&#174; HP81 (R-402B)
Suva&#174; MP39 (R-401A)
Suva&#174; MP66 (R-401B)
Freon&#174; 22 (R-22)
Freon&#174; 23 (R-23)

[wdrzal]

moc r22 is a hcfc it does no wear near the damage cfc caused.While I,m not for not following rules, tons of cfc and hcfc are released annually on big pants, some used to leak a 55 gal drum or 2 a day day and thats just one plant.

you can pump down a system using its own compressor,all you need is to do is install a shut off valve on the liquid line.


procedures where primarily designed for safety, Here at XS personal safety and the safety of those around you is the number 1 priority.

[wdrzal]

Actually, wdrzal, Freon was only for duponts CFC based refrigerants, not all of them. They refer to R134a as Suva 134a, for example, and R423A as Isceon 39TC. Here's the list, taken directly from dupont itself:
ISCEON&#174; MO29 (R-422D)
ISCEON&#174; 39TC&#174; (R-423A)
ISCEON&#174; MO49 (R-413A)
ISCEON&#174; MO59 (R-417A)
ISCEON&#174; MO79 (R-422A)
ISCEON&#174; MO89
Suva&#174; 95 (R-508B)
Suva&#174; 123 (R-123)
Suva&#174; 124 (R-124)
Suva&#174; 134a (R-134a)
Suva&#174; 134a Mobile
Suva&#174; 236fa (R-236fa)
Suva&#174; 404A (R-404A)
Suva&#174; 407C (R-407C)
Suva&#174; 408A (R-408A)
Suva&#174; 409A (R-409A)
Suva&#174; 410A (R-410A)
Suva&#174; 507 (R-507)
Suva&#174; HP80 (R-402A)
Suva&#174; HP81 (R-402B)
Suva&#174; MP39 (R-401A)
Suva&#174; MP66 (R-401B)
Freon&#174; 22 (R-22)
Freon&#174; 23 (R-23)

If you read what I said, I was talking about the time period freon(refrigerants) were first produced & invented by dupont. The isocon and suva refrigerants were not around to much latter.

freon R22 is not a cfc so you too are also wrong, so you can go back to google engineering.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Freon R-22 still has an ODP value so you can review your properties as well. No one said it had to be a Cfc to do damage, R-134a's GWP value is massive as an example, for the Case of R-22 it does contain chlorine and as such has ability to cuase damage to atmospheric Ozone, hence the ODP value.

[Exahertz]

Hey, i just got a MAPP torch like you all said to get "beanz O matic ts4000). though its only on and off and not easily adjustable, flames about 3" long

[Carlz0r]

If you read what I said, I was talking about the time period freon(refrigerants) were first produced & invented by dupont. The isocon and suva refrigerants were not around to much latter.

freon R22 is not a cfc so you too are also wrong, so you can go back to google engineering.
I said CFC based, if you would care to read. Note how an HCFC refrigerant (such as R22) is still based around a chlorofluorocarbon. Considering how much knowledge you claimed to have, I assumed I wouldn't have to explain that.

As for the time period, you said:


I better explain: Dupont was the first major manufacturer of refrigerants. it called ALL its refrigerants "Freon" followed by their chemical composition and a R number, (R for refrigerant) R-12,R-22,R-502 etc like many product, the first major manufacturer or the inventor it gets called by the name it was first given. Freon in the trade is any refrigerant,technically its any Dupont refrigerant.

And more specifically:


Freon in the trade is any refrigerant,technically its any Dupont refrigerant


Note how there was absolutely no mention of a time period there.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I think we have seen in many cases he does not care to read what we are saying, just what he thinks we are. And to add to that R-12 was their greatest and it got the honour of nearly only being called freon, thus when some one says freon most will immeadietly assum R-12, later on came R-22 and others.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Hey, i just got a MAPP torch like you all said to get "beanz O matic ts4000). though its only on and off and not easily adjustable, flames about 3" long


Thats the one, and let me tell you I am still kicking my self for not getting one sooner! Made life ever so much easier!!

[Exahertz]

cool, thats what i like to hear. im practiceing brazing right now and i guess ill be doing it untill my first bottle of MAPP runs dry.

any good sites about tube Joining Techniques? ive been searching google but havnt found much yet. im looking for easy ones right now if you know of them.

also quick question. my flux's active temperature range is 540&#176;C/1,000&#176;F – 870&#176;C/1,700&#176;F. so i looked up this "color Temperature chart (http://www.processassociates.com/process/heat/metcolor.htm)". it states that metal (i guess copper too) will glow
faint red @ 930 F
Blood red @ 1075 F
Dark Cherry @ 1175 F
Medium Cherry 1275 F
Cherry @ 1375 F
and so on...
i guess im shooting for dark to medium cherry, right? do you guys that this is a good approach?

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Its more about procedure then any thing. I usualy give the pipes a quick yet therough sanding, then clean with Isopropyle alcohol, then braze them. never failed for soft solder or brazing. Using of flux is only needed should the job call for it but other wise try to avoid using it, as cleaning the joint is usualy more then suficient.

[Exahertz]

No flux? okay... makes things a little easier :D
Here’s how I do it:

1.make a swaged joint.
2.scrub ODs (outer dia.) with steel wool.
3.then light sand OD with 1000 to 2000 grit.
4.clean with ~80% Isopropanol.
5.sand IDs (inner dia.) with 500 to 1000 to 2000 grit with Dremal tool.
6.clean with isopropanol and Qtip, rinse, Qtip, rinse, dry.
7.put joints together on a vice with swaged piece on bottom
8.quickly heat to Dark Cherry red or about 1175 F
9.apply solder right to the overlapping piece
10.let cool by the convection of air
11.file down any blobs
12.sand smooth
13.(my favorite) quick polish with Wright's silver cream for shininess ;)


The solder I’m using is: OATEY SILVER LEAD-FREE PLUMBING SOLDER

INGREDIENTS:
Tin 60 - 100%
Copper 1 - 5%
Bismuth 1 - 5%
Silver 1 – 5%

Is that the right stuff?

and the flux i was using is: SUPERIOR No. 601 SILVER BRAZING PASTE FLUX.

PHYSICAL PROPERTIES:
Form: Creamy Paste
Color: White
Water Content: Less than 35%
pH: 8.3 ± 0.2
Active Temperature Range: 540°C/1,000°F – 870°C/1,700°F


thank you guys for helpin so much

[Exahertz]

Oh and hey, when I swaged all of my joints the inner diameter (ID) is .01" larger than the outer diameter (OD) of the tube that fits inside of it. Is that tolerable for brazing?

if not how tight should they be? because i can always turn down the diameter of my swage a little

[Carlz0r]

Cant use plumbing solder. It wont hold. What you want is some Silfoss brazing rods or dynaflow 15% silver brazing rods. As for the gap, yes, that's tolerable for brazing.

[Exahertz]

That’s what I thought; this solder doesn’t flow worth a crap. I just got it when I got my torch (they don’t have braze rods at home depot) just for fun. And I learned a few things about solder. I'm at sil-fos's web site ordering some rods right now. Thanks carlz0r

[Carlz0r]

I just reread your first post and noticed that you don't have a very good condensor, and you don't have any 3/8" copper tubing. I have a spare cube condensor from a project I wasn't able to get around to, and I have some spare 3/8" in general. If you want it, let me know, and you can have them for the cost of shipping (probably $15 if you're in north america).

Edit: I also found a couple of spare schraeder valves that'll come in handy. If I find any more stuff I'll throw it in.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

If you use normal soft solder then you need flux, silphose is when you don't. As you have found out.

Secondly no bother to sand 3 times, just a fast run over to get it relitively shiny.

99.8% Alcohol, 80% has 19.9% Oil in it

[Exahertz]

I just reread your first post and noticed that you don't have a very good condensor, and you don't have any 3/8" copper tubing. I have a spare cube condensor from a project I wasn't able to get around to, and I have some spare 3/8" in general. If you want it, let me know, and you can have them for the cost of shipping (probably $15 if you're in north america).

Edit: I also found a couple of spare schraeder valves that'll come in handy. If I find any more stuff I'll throw it in.

Hey Carlz0r thats really cool. i could really use one. when you say cube style do you mean like the mach style (i was looking at buying one of them)? but yeah if you really want to sell those things ill pay for a little more than shipping.

[Exahertz]

If you use normal soft solder then you need flux, silphose is when you don't. As you have found out.

so you can use solder in phase change system?

[Carlz0r]

Hey Carlz0r thats really cool. i could really use one. when you say cube style do you mean like the mach style (i was looking at buying one of them)? but yeah if you really want to sell those things ill pay for a little more than shipping.
It's the mach style, but a bit thicker. And don't worry about any more than shipping. I wouldn't have a use for them (parents wont let me build phase change units anymore). I'll get a box for all the stuff today. I also have some ss flex line from an old unit that got wrecked, but the flex line came out unscathed. Once I get the stuff all together, I'll take a picture. I can't wait to see how your unit turns out. :D

[Exahertz]

Ahh man cant wait! :D ill definitely try to make a thread that shows the entire process of me building my phase change system. But it may be a few weeks before I start.

So what’s the story of why you cant make them anymore? sounds interesting...

[Xeon th MG Pony]

you can use good silver solder in simple SS systems, providing you are good at making solid solder joints, just make sure to use good vibration dampening procedures and design it to minimise stress at every point (Frankly any system should be built in such a way)

There is a higher silver content solder knowen as harris 8 which people have used with great success in their systems, I have never had an issue with standerd silver solder my self. The trick is to use a very clean well preped joint and use just enough flux to be effective, and after soldering clean the pipe theroughly with hot water dampend cloath.

edit: Oh and go easy on the solder, use enough to fill the joint but not so moch it is globing up on the pipe, like I said, soft solder is no issue providing you are good with it and can make a solid joint every time!

[Carlz0r]

What happened, basically, is first of all, I made a unit for myself. It was nothing amazing. I'd told my parents about it, asked them if I could build it and use it, they were fine with it. After I'd spent $500+ on tools and parts and finished building it, they decided that, "No, you can't use that, you're not a professional so I don't trust it in the house." After this, I asked them if I could then at least use some of the parts to build a unit for someone else who didn't have anywhere near enough money for a professionally built one.

Now, you'd think I'd have learned the first time that when they say "Sure, that's fine.", that they'd turn on me. But no, I didn't. Lo and behold, after finishing it, they wouldn't allow me to ship it to him. Following this, I got into a bit of a fight with my dad over it, which ended with him throwing my unit off the balcony.

Now I have spare tools, some spare parts from the build (such as a can of POE oil, schraeder valves, piping, etc.), and a few parts that came out unscathed, or that were bought early on for a project.

Anyhow, here's what I found (quite a bit, actually :p:):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/Carlz0r/pcparts.jpg
Sorry for the crappy picture, I had to use a cell phone camera.

Here's a list of the picture's contents:
-Condenser
-Large amount of 3/8" tubing (The tall copperish cylinder looking thing)
-Small amount of 1/4" tubing (It's on top of the insulation tape)
-Almost unused roll of Armaflex tape
-2 Schraeder valves
-Charging manifold
-Container of POE oil
-Chilly1 Evap mount kit
-120mm Blue LED fan
-Armaflex pipe insulation
-Blue pipe sleeving
-36" stainless steel flex line
-Chilly1 evap (a little bit beaten up from the fall but leak free)
-Spare pipe cutter
-Small piece of DynaFlow 15% silver brazing rod

The chilly1 evap could use a little bit of work such as a good sand, and after that a little bit of a re-braze in case the sanding pulls off too much brazing filler.

The mounting kit for it is missing a clip to hold the evap to the mount. It used to have a rubber o-ring, but it broke.

I believe that one of the hoses may have a small leak on the charging manifold, so a replacement would be good, but they will work for a start.

Finally, I don't have the tool to take the core out of the schraeder valves which you will need to do when brazing. I'm sure someone has a spare one they can give/sell to you for cheap.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

what an Ahole throwing it off the balcony WTF?

[Carlz0r]

Exahertz, Xeon very much needs the POE oil. Do you mind if I give that to him?

[Exahertz]

:slobber: thats everything i need to get started. did i say a few weeks? lets shoot for a few days, geeze. hey you tell me how you want to go about doing this and ill get right on it. BTW i live in Maryland U.S.

[Exahertz]

hey oil comes last, by then ill have bought some. dont mind at all. yea that was a real jerk move throwing all your hard work like that
.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

I have some TXVs I may even be ably to toss to ya, I'll have to run an invintory of them

[Carlz0r]

Just PM me your address and I'll try and get it sent out tomorrow. Once it's sent I'll let you know how much shipping was and I'll split the cost 50/50.

[Exahertz]

split the costs? no way man i cant let that happen. like i said i want to make it worth your while. besides, your doing me a huge favor :toast:.

[Exahertz]

Hey xeon, if your trying to sell those too id be glad to take them off your hands. From what I understand they make tuning a little easier, right?

[Xeon th MG Pony]

well they automaticly handle loads to maintain a constant super heat, they do make the total charge less criticle but one still must be mind full of it, and they do require a bit more understanding to build a good system.

I'm not trying to get rid of them as they are perticulerly use full, how ever I'll happily donate one to a good cuase :) Once you figure out your design load I can figure out the best one to send. Most of mine range from the 1/2 Ton to 2Ton range and I have a fiew 1/4Ton ones, Most are rated R-12 but will work with R-134a and with super heat correction will work with others, how ever no where near as well if you get the proper power head to match the refrigerant. All so most mine will need a low pressur drop evap as they are internaly equalized.

So what I'd need to know is: What design load are you aiming for> 3000BTU, 6,000BTU; 84000BTU (lol jking thate'd be 7ton rating hehe) and refrigerant is limmited to R-134a or any R-12 drop in then expected pressur drop of your evap, too high you'd need an external equalizer, the ones I have are internal so thated be out.

[johann]

Xeon I dont think you should keep encouraging newcomers to use solft solder on refirgeration units. Although you may think its acceptable, 99% of people do not think so.

It is just so much easier using silfoss, why keep telling people soft solder is ok? Most people cant soft solder propperly and will end up wishing they did not listen to your advice.

You seem to be the only one on these forums that keeps recommending it to people. Im sorry but I think its wrong. Why recommend something when there is a better way of doing it?

[Brettbeck]

Xeon I dont think you should keep encouraging newcomers to use solft solder on refirgeration units. Although you may think its acceptable, 99% of people do not think so.

It is just so much easier using silfoss, why keep telling people soft solder is ok? Most people cant soft solder propperly and will end up wishing they did not listen to your advice.

You seem to be the only one on these forums that keeps recommending it to people. Im sorry but I think its wrong. Why recommend something when there is a better way of doing it?

I agree. Either braze or don't bother at all. Soft soldering these types of units is just far too dangerous.

[expansionvalve]

The old soft solder chestnut again :D

Well, I know in times gone I have kind of suggested that I would use it almost exclusively on a rig I have on the go, just to prove it will survive, I use soft solder in a trade situation with r134a and r404a, the conditions of which, I believe are more hostile and testing than a pc setup, but they dont quiet have the vibration a hermetic can offer and my evap isnt on a flexi hose! but after a little thought, there are a few places I would very much prefer and would advise to use silver solder for joins on phase setup, these being,

Discharge and suction compressor pipe fittings, my logic, I think the way some hermetic compressor jumps around a little on start/stop over time this would I suspect kill the soft solder.

Joining evaporators together, looking at the two I have here, the contact/surface areas for the join appears so small I don't think soft will hold for the long term.

I think basically, any join that suffers from movement or moderate vibration, use silver solder!

On any joins that are solid mount soft solder will be reliable if done with good practice. I would also strongly advise that with the use of soft solder a high pressure switch to be fitted as a unit running with high head pressure due to slow condenser fan/ large loads/ not working condenser fan, the unit will probably have the potential to blow out the solder, I see this quiet often in the summer due to faulty hp switch and a condenser fan or two broke down, around 350psi is very boarder line I'd still be on the roof but this also depends somewhat on the melting point of solder.

I think for a new guy just starting out, it will be safer/easier and probably less annoying to use silver solder, it's easier by far, I also kind of think that as the unit more than likely requires more than 50% to be silver soldered anyway you may aswell just do the lot the same.

[johann]

The old soft solder chestnut again :D

Well, I know in times gone I have kind of suggested that I would use it almost exclusively on a rig I have on the go, just to prove it will survive, I use soft solder in a trade situation with r134a and r404a, the conditions of which, I believe are more hostile and testing than a pc setup, but they dont quiet have the vibration a hermetic can offer and my evap isnt on a flexi hose! but after a little thought, there are a few places I would very much prefer and would advise to use silver solder for joins on phase setup, these being,

Discharge and suction compressor pipe fittings, my logic, I think the way some hermetic compressor jumps around a little on start/stop over time this would I suspect kill the soft solder.

Joining evaporators together, looking at the two I have here, the contact/surface areas for the join appears so small I don't think soft will hold for the long term.

I think basically, any join that suffers from movement or moderate vibration, use silver solder!

On any joins that are solid mount soft solder will be reliable if done with good practice. I would also strongly advise that with the use of soft solder a high pressure switch to be fitted as a unit running with high head pressure due to slow condenser fan/ large loads/ not working condenser fan, the unit will probably have the potential to blow out the solder, I see this quiet often in the summer due to faulty hp switch and a condenser fan or two broke down, around 350psi is very boarder line I'd still be on the roof but this also depends somewhat on the melting point of solder.

I think for a new guy just starting out, it will be safer/easier and probably less annoying to use silver solder, it's easier by far, I also kind of think that as the unit more than likely requires more than 50% to be silver soldered anyway you may aswell just do the lot the same.

Well said there, my exact point. Just braze it all and be done with it ;)

[Exahertz]

who makes a good rod for brazing copper to stainless? i guess im using 40%+ silver. what kind of flux do i use for that kind of joint?

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Uni1000

[Xeon th MG Pony]

Xeon I dont think you should keep encouraging newcomers to use solft solder on refirgeration units. Although you may think its acceptable, 99% of people do not think so.

It is just so much easier using silfoss, why keep telling people soft solder is ok? Most people cant soft solder propperly and will end up wishing they did not listen to your advice.

You seem to be the only one on these forums that keeps recommending it to people. Im sorry but I think its wrong. Why recommend something when there is a better way of doing it?


Correction 99% of the people on the board, and think it is wrong all you want, I think that most aplications it is more then suitable, I have machines to back this up, and I have plenty of local engineers who find it dandy in most aplications. all you guys seem to have is others failures to say it is bad when it was the opperator machine failur is one thing personal failur does not mean defective material or bad material.

One should be apt at both methodes if they intend to do this long term as it is a skill they will criticly need in the futur when dealing with condensate lines and the like.

Like I stated, dampen vibrations and such, Silfosing is fine too, depends on situation. I didn't recomend it either, I said it will work fine, and in most cases it will, other wise I would not say it did.

As for better way that too is subjective, it is situation dependant.

edit: awkward grammer.

[Xeon th MG Pony]

The old soft solder chestnut again :D

Well, I know in times gone I have kind of suggested that I would use it almost exclusively on a rig I have on the go, just to prove it will survive, I use soft solder in a trade situation with r134a and r404a, the conditions of which, I believe are more hostile and testing than a pc setup, but they dont quiet have the vibration a hermetic can offer and my evap isnt on a flexi hose! but after a little thought, there are a few places I would very much prefer and would advise to use silver solder for joins on phase setup, these being,

Discharge and suction compressor pipe fittings, my logic, I think the way some hermetic compressor jumps around a little on start/stop over time this would I suspect kill the soft solder.

Joining evaporators together, looking at the two I have here, the contact/surface areas for the join appears so small I don't think soft will hold for the long term.

I think basically, any join that suffers from movement or moderate vibration, use silver solder!

On any joins that are solid mount soft solder will be reliable if done with good practice. I would also strongly advise that with the use of soft solder a high pressure switch to be fitted as a unit running with high head pressure due to slow condenser fan/ large loads/ not working condenser fan, the unit will probably have the potential to blow out the solder, I see this quiet often in the summer due to faulty hp switch and a condenser fan or two broke down, around 350psi is very boarder line I'd still be on the roof but this also depends somewhat on the melting point of solder.

I think for a new guy just starting out, it will be safer/easier and probably less annoying to use silver solder, it's easier by far, I also kind of think that as the unit more than likely requires more than 50% to be silver soldered anyway you may aswell just do the lot the same.

Thank you Expansion Valve, some honest experianced view on this, we need more real real indiustry guys in here like your self

[Carlz0r]

Exahertz, I took those parts to be mailed out today :). Tracking number and shipping cost is coming your way via PM now.

[wdrzal]

Exahertz ,build your first few rigs with a cap tube.forget about valves for now.You have more than enough to learn & challenges. Go simple, and you will still have many questions to ask and problems to over come. You do want it to work ;)

[runmc]

On a small system as this, I would go with the cap tube also.

[Exahertz]

hey Carlz0r, just sent your payment. it covers shipping costs but when i get the parts ill get ya a little more of what its worth.

thanks again :D

[Exahertz]

yea i want to keep my setup simple for now. it can always be upgraded!