Can we say this is Xtreme? 3 stage autocascade in II stage cascade.

[LukeXE]

Heya ! We have christmas, so for me it`s the best time to work (free time), so I started work on next unnormal cascade, now with 3 stage autocascade on I stage of my cascade.

Compressors -- Toshiba 3/4HP for I stage and Sanyo 3/4HP for II stage
Condesner -- 1,9kW (brand new).
Evap -- Chilly1 clone with 2,3mm captube (for cPEV).
Expansion valves:

I stage:

190cm of 0,8mm captube for R290
225cm of 0,8mm captube for R23 or CO2 or R170, depends on what I will have
240cm of 0,8mm captube for R1150.

II Stage:

cPEV for R14.

Stages: I stage autocascading with R290/R23(or CO2 or R170)/R1150, second stage R14 with small amount of Argon.
Gasses: R290/R23/R1150/R14.
Safety devices: High pressure cut of switches.

So, yesterday I almost finished I stage, few photos of uninsulated unit:

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0187.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0188.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0189.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0191.jpg
Vacuum isn`t too good, because I finished brazing very late yesterday, and neighbours wanted to kill me, because now we have christmas and I`m working, so I did enough vacuum to get most of air from system.
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0192.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0193.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0194.jpg


OKay, so what is new in this cascade ? I think that designed by me speciall HX, that will do job well :toast: and the best, I purged EVERTYHING while brazing (I know wdrzal you`re happy now ;))


So, for now that`s all, today I will insulate some pipes and start building second stage, but this is easy ;)

Cheers

[piotres]

looks nice :D

I only don't like connection to discharge line of rotaries ...You can unbraze old pipes from it and then just put new ;) .

nice fixing of mine old refco gauges hehe :D ...leaklock ?

regards
Peter

[marru]

Insane, i hope you'll pull this one off. The compressor might not pull enough vacuum for the three stages, but we'll see. :)

:up:

[LukeXE]

looks nice :D

I only don't like connection to discharge line of rotaries ...You can unbraze old pipes from it and then just put new ;) .

nice fixing of mine old refco gauges hehe :D ...leaklock ?

regards
Peter

I don`t like them too, but I`m to lazy to do it in other way Piotres :D

For gauges I have tightened this thing which is holding slightglass, leaklock is only for extra safety.

@marru -- I hope I will have about 1 maybe 1,5bar low side pressure under load, we will see.

[Jack]

It looks monsterous :D

I can´t really follow the pipes to see how the systems works, there are just too many pipes!

[LukeXE]

Today I will try to take some clear shots of piping and I will make small HX scheme :)

[Brettbeck]

I see you got some new goodies for christmas Luke :D!

Good luck, it will be interesting to see some low temps with this unique unit :D!

[metalazzo]

IMO, it will be hard to hold low temp en load with only 3/4HP in "1st stage" with R1150
But i wish you luck Luke, you always amaze me :)

[Gray Mole]

So you've gotten more plate HX :)

Awesome work so far! The pipework is really something when you go multistage on an autocascade, but you ARE the guy to get the job done :toast:

I've got another couple of plate exchangers now, will have to send you another one for the next crazy project :D

Have fun, and I'll be looking forward to seeing how this works out!

Gray

[Tyrou]

Awesome.

This is the only word I can find for both that thing, and the idea which lies beneath. You must be completely crazy just to imagine building this, it looks Mad Max, but I'm sure it will work. That's the LukeXE touch, making a device nobody would dare to look at from less than 10 meters, and setting new performance records.

Good luck with the completion of this ubercool project !

[esdee]

good luck with your project luke!
subscribed and anxious to see more pics/results/observations! :toast:

what gas did you used for purging?

[Brettbeck]

what gas did you used for purging?

Luke uses Co2 for purging :).

[Clemmaster]

Don't you think 2m40 captube in third stage isn't too long? Because you condense R1150 with R23 and the High preasures betwen the 3 gases will be very different, the BP too for the same reasons ?

Anyway good luke (xD) for your project :)

[Moc]

Thats awesome! Are you cyroteks son :D ?

[LukeXE]

Thanks guys ! :D

Yes, I`m using CO2 for purging :)

About long captube for ethylene, don`t think so that 240cm is too long, I learned a lot from older units about captube lenght, for sure it will be good...but if not I will just cut it, no problem with that.

[Unseen]

Great start luke :) I wish i had your passion..

[4Qman]

:toast: good Luck with it Luke, hope it all works out smoothly. Im sure you will certainly learn a lot from this build :) I am loving it.

[bazx]

i love to see you build dude

auto master

[Moc]

In which stage is the plate hx? How many plates does the hx has? I think 12 correct? The condensor is very nice ;) ! Do you think the argon will condense or is it just for bit higher pressure? What pressure do you try in your II stage?

Hope you understand what I mean ;)! Merry Xmas to you and your girlfriend :P !

[Solarfall]

öööö... one word..... insane :shock:

[aasmaukr]

Do you think the argon will condense or is it just for bit higher pressure?

The Argon won't condense and it will not cause much higher pressure. The Argon 'jumps' into the condensed R14 and somehow makes the temp lower, with and without load. I don't know why that happens tho.

Btw: Interesting build Luke ;) I'm looking forward to see how this turns out.

[LukeXE]

Plate HX is in 3 stage, between autocascading/normal stage (R1150/R14), it has 14 plates. aasmaukr really nice explained for what I gonna use argon :)

[|RickY|]

i'm tunned!! thanks lukeXE

[SexyMF]

Are those MAPP cylinders you used in amongst the build?? I've wondered if I could utilise them - but never tried.

[LukeXE]

yeap, those are MAPP Gas bottles.

[Brettbeck]

yeap, those are MAPP Gas bottles.

You use those for phase seperators don't you?

[LukeXE]

Yeap, I think that MAPP bottle is ideal for phase separator, has big volume and I really have good separation with those.

[LukeXE]

Never, this is my 3 or 4 autocascade, and I never got any problems with high side volume by using mapp gass bottles, so I think everyone should feel free with using them ! :woot: BTW, now inside those mapp gas cylinders is steel wool, this will catch oil :p but without it I haven`t got problems with oil at all, so steel wool isn`t needed at all.

[Brettbeck]

You mean steel wool isn't needed inside a phase-seperator? Can it just be an empty copper cylinder :)?

[LukeXE]

Yes, in older autocascades I didn`t use steel wool inside phase separators and all oil went with highside gas (R290 in my case), steel wool is just...I would say, extra insurance.

[Moc]

cold_ice uses a 35mm diameter pipe without steel wool inside and it doesn't separate! Which diameter has your bottle that it works without steel wool?

Would a oil-sep also work as a phasesep?

[Clemmaster]

If you open the tap that link the oil sep and the succion line both vapor and liquid will be aspired by the compressor...

[LukeXE]

Temprite 340A oil sep is used as phase separator, few persons told me that.

[n00b 0f l337]

Works well as one so I've heard, since its not floated.

[Carlz0r]

Just a quick note: Copper wool is much better to use than steel wool in phase seps, as steel wool likes to oxidize and burn VERY fast while brazing. I imagine this would cause a problem for anyone who purges with propane or those who don't purge at all. Other than that, awesome looking cascade, can't wait to see the results :D

[Solarfall]

so what sort of temps could one get with this kind of uber cooling madness.

[Moc]

I think... -120°C @ 150W should be possible.... ;)

[Brettbeck]

I imagine this would cause a problem for anyone who purges with propane or those who don't purge at all.

Sorry i'm a bit confused... if you purge with propane, why would you get oxidation on the steel wool? Isn't that the point of purging... to prevent oxidation from forming?

[Stapler]

That's a sweet project Luke. I always love to see innovation in phase projects, good luck.

[aasmaukr]

Propane won't burn without Oxygen..

Nice micron gauge Luke :D I wish i had one. Have you ever tried to check how good vacuum a 'normal' compressor pulls compared to a proper vacuum pump?

[LukeXE]

Propane won't burn without Oxygen..

Nice micron gauge Luke :D I wish i had one. Have you ever tried to check how good vacuum a 'normal' compressor pulls compared to a proper vacuum pump?

I want to check, but in next few days, I must find some free time after new year.

This micron gauge is great, I`ve bought it from Jinu, great stuff

[Carlz0r]

Sorry i'm a bit confused... if you purge with propane, why would you get oxidation on the steel wool? Isn't that the point of purging... to prevent oxidation from forming?
If there's any oxygen left in there when you start brazing it'll burn a little bit. I figure this because there's quite a large space, and depending on where you feed it in you could still trap some oxygen in there. Or maybe I'm just too tired and not thinking straight.

[LukeXE]

Just a quick note: Copper wool is much better to use than steel wool in phase seps, as steel wool likes to oxidize and burn VERY fast while brazing. I imagine this would cause a problem for anyone who purges with propane or those who don't purge at all. Other than that, awesome looking cascade, can't wait to see the results :D

I know that, but in my funny town I only can get steel wool :(

[Carlz0r]

I know that, but in my funny town I only can get steel wool :(
Maybe I should buy a big packet of it and send it to you for a late christmas present :p: Have you checked regular stores? I bought some for cleaning bbq grills.

[LukeXE]

Maybe I should buy a big packet of it and send it to you for a late christmas present :p: Have you checked regular stores? I bought some for cleaning bbq grills.

no problem :p I`m waiting :p

I have checked everything, only steel ;/

[Carlz0r]

Well, if I see any when I'm in town, I'll pick up a couple of packs. Then I can say that I helped put copper wool in an autocascade! :D

[kayl]

I know that, but in my funny town I only can get steel wool :(


are you sure, at the local shopping store where you buy food n stuff in the kitchen section they should have copper scrubs. they also have the steel ones but copper is beta ;)
good luck with the project luke :toast:

[ryba]

I know that, but in my funny town I only can get steel wool :(

You don't have funny town... We have funny country :D Few people in different part of Poland can't buy a Cu wool, we can buy only steel wool :(

[[XC] gomeler]

Jeez you are an inspiration to all of us. Wish I had the $$ and space to go about doing projects like this. I hope it works out well, it looks like it is going to be amazing.

[LukeXE]

Hey, I`m writing that post once again, because I clicked refresh button instead bookmark in firefox...:lol:

so, I and II stage is already done and insulated a little bit. II stage is normal, nothing speciall at all, just small, really small 30cm slhx before main hx to cool a little bit gas going to HX.

Oil separator and liquid accumulator are homemade, hope they will work.

so, now I must wait for gases, R14 from cold-ice and ethylene from Linde Gas (maybe someone want to give me small, 1kg bottle of ethylene as gift ? :p)

enjoy photos and sorry for that mess at my workspace.

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0379.jpg

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0380.jpg

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0381.jpg

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0382.jpg

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0379.jpg

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0383.jpg

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0384.jpg

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0385.jpg

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0386.jpg

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0387.jpg

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0388.jpg

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0389.jpg

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0390.jpg

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT0391.jpg

[404Power]

Nice build Luke! ;)

Hope your 4th (??) autocascade functions very well! ;)
But I'm still a one-compressor-fan! :D

[LukeXE]

I made 6 autocascades, only 3 worked (4th is this, still don`t know how it will perform), two didn`t because I used in it small compressor and fited everything into unseen case.

[404Power]

@ Luke: what about rly small rotary @ 2 stage autocascade in a small box?
Sth like that would be rly interessting I think! :)

[kayl]

nice build luke.units are getting smaller
will it have a cover over it?

[[XC] gomeler]

Very nice build, looks like it has come together very well. Can't wait to see your results once you get the thing charged up.

[LukeXE]

Thanks guys :)

Kayl, It won`t have anything to cover it, just like it is now, without any casses or something :)

[Brettbeck]

Nice work there Luke! When will you be charging it?

[LukeXE]

Hm, I think until end of January it should be charged :/

[Pete]

Luke XE the father and mother of all getto units. When will you make clean looking unit in proper case or if open then make them neat and on decent bords?

[LukeXE]

lol...it `s not good to hear that. Maybe on photos it looks bad when around is some trash, but it`s really clean and nice in real...I really like it...I will try to take some photos when I will take it to my house.

About case, I will say "never" ;) too expensive

[Moc]

Its hard to make good looking units when you have to use tons of armaflex for isolating... i think baxz made little cases for platehxs if you would use them it would look better!
I think it is more important to perform good...

[Stapler]

The unit itself looks neat, especially before insulation, but your workspace...

It doesn't really bother me though, the unit looks fine and will perform well, and if you can work without issue then their isn't an issue with the workspace.

[.p4nzer]

Wow... This is a cascade!

Very good work... I hope it work perfectly and I wait the real cold!

[wdrzal]

edit accidental double post

[wdrzal]

Luke XE the father and mother of all getto units. When will you make clean looking unit in proper case or if open then make them neat and on decent bords?

A case adds nothing to performance,Luke is going through a learning curve on a complex type of refrigeration unit "auto-cascade" access helps to monitor temps and make changes if necessary.

Luke I,m glad to see your purging,and have a micron gauge. always get below 1000 microns and it holds there there for at least 3 minutes with vacuum pump off. Below 500,even to 300 is better,. Pressure losses are great at very low pressures so use short hoses when evacuating and on micron gauge. Also get a valve core remover as removing restriction will cut vacuum times in half. Finally a 3/8 hose does better than standard 1/4 inch hose.tools are expensive so just acquire them as you can afford to.

nice progress Luke.:toast:

[kayl]

lol...it `s not good to hear that. Maybe on photos it looks bad when around is some trash, but it`s really clean and nice in real...I really like it...I will try to take some photos when I will take it to my house.

About case, I will say "never" ;) too expensive

cases arnt cheap, i payed alot for mine, but to me they are worth it when it comes to sending stuff. When i sent a cascade i put labels on every side of the box i packed it in (fragile this way up). WHen the courier picked it up guess what they did.
Put it in the back of their van and then push it over on its side and drove off:upset: i felt like punching the guys, if only they new what was inside that thing they would treat it 100x more careful.
At lease having it inside a case (built strong) things are bolted down and have added protection. If it was say placed up side down completely would have a lot more protection than no case at all.
In my case even though the 50kg cascade was on its side it went some 6,000km to 10,000km from one side of australia to the other with no damage what so ever.
If the buyer cant afford a cascade built properly i wouldnt waste my time building one just not worth the hassels for a few $$.
If need i could provide you with a autocad drawing of my case which you could get priced at the local metal shop. ;)

[Duniek]

cases arnt cheap, i payed alot for mine, but to me they are worth it when it comes to sending stuff. When i sent a cascade i put labels on every side of the box i packed it in (fragile this way up). WHen the courier picked it up guess what they did.
Put it in the back of their van and then push it over on its side and drove off:upset: i felt like punching the guys, if only they new what was inside that thing they would treat it 100x more careful.
At lease having it inside a case (built strong) things are bolted down and have added protection. If it was say placed up side down completely would have a lot more protection than no case at all.
In my case even though the 50kg cascade was on its side it went some 6,000km to 10,000km from one side of australia to the other with no damage what so ever.
If the buyer cant afford a cascade built properly i wouldnt waste my time building one just not worth the hassels for a few $$.
If need i could provide you with a autocad drawing of my case which you could get priced at the local metal shop. ;)

Who has said if must cases be metal? :p:
It can be with aluminum and plexy and it's can very light and cheaper than metal case, I think :)

btw Luke its very nice cascade :woot:
really compact :slobber: , I like it

[kayl]

Who has said if must cases be metal? :p:
It can be with aluminum and plexy and it's can very light and cheaper than metal case, I think :)

btw Luke its very nice cascade :woot:
really compact :slobber: , I like it

yes correct, i use aluminium lighter to send, stainless steel is so so expensive,double +

[LukeXE]

Thanks Wdrzal, Duniek and Kayl for nice comments ;)

About case, you`re right Kayl, it helps a lot when unit is shipped somewhere, maybe in another builds I will buy case or something.

About case`s design, I will talk to you ;)

[4Qman]

Case is sexy, bare is mean.hehe

Nice work Luke. class build :)

[ksimp88]

looks nice :D
I dunno... I don't like a mess of pipes.... you should get that in a case, man! Maybe let some of the pipes show in silver, or mod it UV.

[berkut]

Exellent cascade, only 1 thing to point out: more insulation :D

[LukeXE]

Ok, some good news about gases.

I`ve got already 650g of R14 at my house from Cold Ice, he will send me about 2kg of ethylene on monday and I will have R23 from Johann :)

So first stage will be R290/R23/R1150, second R14 + argon.

Only waiting for gases, this baby only waits for them

[aspstein]

Nais Luke, cant wait to see what this baby can do :P

[LukeXE]

At last some temps !!! :toast:

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT1023.jpg

I stage temperature without load, suction pressure around +0,5bar, discharge 6,5bar, pretty low.

Gases R290/CO2/R1150, I`ve got some problems with going under -85*C, R290 temperature is -26*C, CO2 -50*C so R1150 can be liquid without any problems. -84*C is pretty high for R1150 and that suction pressure, I need more gases to make nice mix, I`ll have some R23 in next few days.

Today/Tomorrow I will charge II stage with R14 and I`ll show some sub -140*C temps...I hope !

[Brettbeck]

Not a bad start there Luke :)! Good luck with mixing the other gases when they all arrive!

[Moc]

Awesome!
6,5bar with R1150? I think you need more R1150 or longer captube?

[esdee]

luke what cap tube lengths you use?
im starting to build autocascades, with 507/1150 and r14/23/argon are on the way.

what do you think about adding a r290 stage in both stages, to help oil flow, and to help the HX to cool the r14/argon in your second stage?\
im guessing it will be quite hard to get nice temps when you have to cool the r14/argon mix from ambient temp to -90 or so

[LukeXE]

Awesome!
6,5bar with R1150? I think you need more R1150 or longer captube?

more R1150 = higher temperature, I should add more captube but...I will test it under load, with shorter captube it should work better.

[LukeXE]

luke what cap tube lengths you use?
im starting to build autocascades, with 507/1150 and r14/23/argon are on the way.

what do you think about adding a r290 stage in both stages, to help oil flow, and to help the HX to cool the r14/argon in your second stage?\
im guessing it will be quite hard to get nice temps when you have to cool the r14/argon mix from ambient temp to -90 or so

R290 is always good esdee, I would try to add some R290 to second stage, we`ll see, today I will charge it with R14.:toast:

Captubes:

I stage:

190cm of 0,8mm captube for R290
225cm of 0,8mm captube for R23 or CO2 or R170, depends on what I will have
240cm of 0,8mm captube for R1150.

[LittleDevil]

Nice Luke ;)

regards

[LukeXE]

Grauuu !! Still problems ! :|

Charged unit with R14, started II stage and...nothing ! Suction pressure -0,9bar with opened cpev, so I`ve got blocked captube. Probably I blocked it when I added some more captube, :banana::banana::banana::banana: ! Tomorrow I must take from A/C shop empty R134a 11,6 kg bottle and recover R14...:stick:

[Moc]

Uh... you should try this at first... just use normal refrigiant like R290 to see if caps are blocked!

[n00b 0f l337]

Whenever I'm working with captube I always pressure blast em thru after braes with around 250 psi worth of co2

[LukeXE]

Yes, I know, this is first time when I didn`t check this...eh...

[Brettbeck]

Uh... you should try this at first... just use normal refrigiant like R290 to see if caps are blocked!

But how can you do that in auto-cascades, when all the r290 will have liquified after the condenser, falling to the bottom of the first phase seperator. And if that happens there won't be any gas r290 going out the top of the seperator feeding the other stages.

[symphy]

Really awesome build... Will this unit be for sale?

Waiting for more pictures. Better than television. :toast: :banana:

[LukeXE]

YGPM

Better than television, hehe :) Today I will try to get that R134a bottle, after "trying" to repair my poor car. I`m still angry at me, why I haven`t checked that captube first...:stick:

[LukeXE]

Nexty update !

Yesterday I have found blocked part of captube, reapaired that, vacuumed and charged with R14 (of course with recovered R14). I found tiny leak on I stage, so I decided to add some captube to all "stages" by the way.

So now R290 stage has 230cm, CO2 stage has 255cm and R1150 stage has 270cm of 0,8mm captube. Now I can expect better temperatures, I hope ! I stage is vacuumed, I will charge it in next few hours and show photos with results :toast:

[LukeXE]

Eh...Autocascading R1150 with CO2 is pain, not fun :| Still can`t get good results, I need R23 instead CO2 ;/ I`ve got -28*C on R290...good, -55*C on CO2 stage...very good, -70*C with problems on R1150 stage, ahhhhh....~ +0,5bar suction pressure

[Moc]

Updates?

[LukeXE]

soon, I`ve got problems with "leaking" cpev, even if it`s closed I`ve got more that 0psi suction pressure...

and probably unit will be with R1150 on stage II

[ryba]

soon, I`ve got problems with "leaking" cpev, even if it`s closed I`ve got more that 0psi suction pressure...

and probably unit will be with R1150 on stage II

fight with r14:slapass:

[LukeXE]

I`ve got problem with R14, because I thinked that I will have it for more than 2 charges to 15 bar static...not big stage volume, I`m a bit dissapointed.

[LukeXE]

Some news ! Retuned I stage, replaced cpev on stage 2 (the first one was domaged).
http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT1152.jpg

I stage temperature (R290)

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT1151.jpg

II stage temperature (CO2)

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT1157.jpg

III stage temperature (R1150)

http://www.teampuss.com/lukexe/YotoCascade/PICT1155.jpg

Whole unit, must insulate some parts and clean everything. Second stage vacuuming, will charge it with ethylene in next 2-3hours.

[Moc]

Great.... with -75°C you won't have problems to condense R14... :)

[ryba]

Great.... with -75°C you won't have problems to condense R14... :)

He don't have any R14 now

[Moc]

:( Where it is?

[LukeXE]

somewhere in the atmosphere :p

[kayl]

so what gas will go into second stage now?
nice temps pn the first stage :toast:

[ksimp88]

Nice job, :thumb:
I still believe a decent box would be nice, or a good paint job

[Moc]

so what gas will go into second stage now?



and probably unit will be with R1150 on stage II

Too bad you did not recover the R14....